The Riverlands Web V.7

[Booknerd2]

17 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Well I'm very glad you did!!    That was a funny and enjoyable read, good work Bookie!  Brienne and Pod as Batman and Robin is awesome, I love your creative take on some of these RL's arcs. [Stranger stuff was great again.  Still think we need to get some of those down in comic strip form]    While you ponder over these main themes in the books with a heart on sleeve, there I am looking at the guy in the background or trying to find some obscure meaningful text. [which often isn't there]  I really do enjoy reading your thoughts, it keeps me in touch with real story going on here.  As George always says...'The human heart and conflict with itself' 

Thanks again Bookie!  I may respond with more when time allows.  I have a few essay's in fire at the moment, it is slow going!  But always welcome an essay from you, and bring on that RL's stuff in the show.  Even if they miss stuff out, I will be excited to watch whatever they have for us.  We have put a lot of time and effort into this arc, I get goose bumps when I see it all play out on screen.  It's awesome.       

Thanks so much, Wizz. If I could draw more than a stick figure, I'd be game. Lol. There was that cartoon with Sandor holding up Stranger that was hilarious. I have to find it. And in honor of Stranger, I am going to post another one either tonight or tomorrow. This one is interesting….Stranger has to explain to Sandor why he bit off the ear. 

I've been sitting on a lot of stuff so it'll be some bouncing around here. And I'm still looking at a lot of Bran stuff I missed and the Wind concept that is totally fresh in my eyes. I forgot I had really old Bran notes, and I'm sifting through to see if I noted anything helpful by complete accident. Lol. 

It is cool, despite all the variables, to see it in visual form. Because some of the main things we've been waiting for, or discussed a long time ago, some of the gist of it is there. Waited a long time, but the Riverlands is building up steam.

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

9 minutes ago, Booknerd2 said:

Thanks so much, Wizz. If I could draw more than a stick figure, I'd be game. Lol. There was that cartoon with Sandor holding up Stranger that was hilarious. I have to find it. And in honor of Stranger, I am going to post another one either tonight or tomorrow. This one is interesting….Stranger has to explain to Sandor why he bit off the ear. 

I've been sitting on a lot of stuff so it'll be some bouncing around here. And I'm still looking at a lot of Bran stuff I missed and the Wind concept that is totally fresh in my eyes. I forgot I had really old Bran notes, and I'm sifting through to see if I noted anything helpful by complete accident. Lol. 

It is cool, despite all the variables, to see it in visual form. Because some of the main things we've been waiting for, or discussed a long time ago, some of the gist of it is there. Waited a long time, but the Riverlands is building up steam.

 

No problem, credit where it is due. 

Well...the Bran/old gods/windy stuff.  I have so much more I could share, but it would be a cluster bomb of mayhem to unleash such in one go.  I have been working on trying to separate the various factors that relate to this technique so as to make it easier to follow.  I have multiple essays in mind atm.  The wind thing is bigger than I thought, and I thought it was a huge task before!!!!!  I am working on it, and I will keep you and this thread informed as I move forward.  Any help or musings you have on the subject would be welcome as always.     

[Nevets]

 

21 hours ago, Booknerd2 said:

 

Hey, Nevets,

It was so awesome to have that confirmed. And they are great together, funny, sweet, range of emotions, just like I favor the Wolf Pack.

I think they are going the distance, or my gut leans that way. Both still have a lot to accomplish and a lot of potential. Just whatever is going on with them as far as Stoneheart and the BWB is just tense. I agree with you, Pod couldn't be luckier to have such a person take them under their wing. 

Totally agree. Brienne is looking for Sansa, and just so happens to have Sansa's husband's squire find her. Serendipitous totally, and Pod can help Brienne id her. With the hundred ways it could play out if it does, it would be a kick in the pants if they stumble upon Alayne, and Pod quietly murmurs: "Ser….uh, I mean, my lady….that is Lady Sansa." And Brienne looks at him with a priceless face. You know, something to that effect. But its one of many options I keep in the back of my mind. There are just too many possible outcomes.

I don't think Pod and Brienne crack the Arya case when she returns, that could play out many ways. I think Arya may encounter other people besides them first, but maybe eventually they are all near or involved. Not sure. Though I think he could have possibly seen her in KL, its nowhere near a positive id as he could with Sansa. I have to check this. Also, its been so long, and she surely has changed. 

I do worry if LS and BWB know he was Tryions's squire. They already view him as guilty by association with Brienne. His background can't help. And the Paynes are tied to Lannisters too.

 

 

 

 

 

I think there is a reason that GRRM gave Brienne a companion that can ID Sansa.  I think the most likely way of finding out who she is is to go to the Vale.  Brienne was already thinking of doing so because of Lysa.  They could easily hear about "Alayne Stone"

 

especially with the tournament she is organizing.

and go to check it out.

Podrick has never met Arya, but I do anticipate that she will show up with the BwB.  She has a wolf pack in the vicinity to catch up with.  There are plenty of people with the BwB who can ID her though.  It's actually one of the few places where she can be assured of running into someone who knows her.

One thought about Brienne and Jaime.  Most posters seem to assume that if there is trial by combat it will be Brienne v Jaime.  However, what if she manages to get Pod and Ser Hyle out of the way, and then insists of being Jaime's champion?  Just a thought.

[Booknerd2]

WHOOOHHOOOOHHOOOO!

More to come, a response to the last post, and I'll get myself in check.

 

[LongRider]

On 6/5/2016 at 1:34 PM, Nevets said:

I think there is a reason that GRRM gave Brienne a companion that can ID Sansa.  I think the most likely way of finding out who she is is to go to the Vale.  Brienne was already thinking of doing so because of Lysa.  They could easily hear about "Alayne Stone"

This is an interesting idea.  I wonder how close LSH is to the Vale?  If the cave is under the Hill at High Heart they would have a ways to go and would have to cross at least one river.  I've never been a fan of a B&J trial by combat, especially since I don't think she's healed from her wounds, didn't she break an arm? I have the feeling GRRM is going to surprise us with his resolution of this.

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 minutes ago, LongRider said:

This is an interesting idea.  I wonder how close LSH is to the Vale?  If the cave is under the Hill at High Heart they would have a ways to go and would have to cross at least one river.  I've never been a fan of a B&J trial by combat, especially since I don't think she's healed from her wounds, didn't she break an arm? I have the feeling GRRM is going to surprise us with his resolution of this.

How do you see the resolution working out? 

[LongRider]

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

How do you see the resolution working out? 

Actually, I haven't decided.  Some of the BWB must be hiding when Bri meets Jaime b/c they wouldn't let their prisoner with a fancy sword travel alone.  So, other than Bri not being alone as Jaime may see her, I don't know.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 hours ago, LongRider said:

Actually, I haven't decided.  Some of the BWB must be hiding when Bri meets Jaime b/c they wouldn't let their prisoner with a fancy sword travel alone.  So, other than Bri not being alone as Jaime may see her, I don't know.

I suspect Bloodraven will play a role.

[Booknerd2]

 

 

 

A Collection of Touch and Go

 

 

 Or my flaky, flip-flopping topics. No. 1 – The Daynes (Ashara) 

 

 

 Ok, I’ll touch it only once. (Or more because that is my point. What started off as a small post got completely out of hand. Like this topic is. One big friggin mystery. Too much info to do in one, and I didn’t plan on that happening. Oh, well.) Like other topics that equals its repute in my mind. Well, this is the Riverlands Web for starters...but there are  people here with connections to Starks that could have an effect on later stuff. Oh, and I ain’t gonna go there again after these posts for awhile. Why? I’ll tell you.

 

 

Dayne, Dayne go away - Come again another day – (an intro, in case these people come up again on my thread after I cover some Ashara/Barrristan/misc. stuff that has been bugging me and has always bugged me.)

 

 

 

(Then I saw one version that continues: Little Arthur wants to play. And I wanted to slap my forehead. I’m not even touching that topic today. Er, much.)

 

 

There are certain topics that plague me. I get worked up after I come across something that reminds me of the topic, curse that it popped up again because I know the whole cycle is going to start up once more, in which I have to think, think, think about it, read some stuff for perspective to reflect, and think how I feel about it. Again.

 

 

 Do I agree with it? Do I not? Why? Why? Why? How many ways can a piece of info or dialogue be interpreted? Then I get fed up and leave it alone after exhausting the topic, until…it comes back to bite me in the ass again. Like those Daynes.

 

 

This happens with a bunch of them. It pains me to focus on them, but I am for whatever reasons, compelled to do so. TOJ, Quaithe, the Hooded Man, the Pink Letter, Varys and LF’s entire existences and motivations and end games, the damn prophecies, which I had some practice back in the day with Old Classic Greek Works and Harry Potter, and other stuff, and I still stink at making headway with prophecies. And let’s not forget, though I only attack one entity for the most part today…the Dayne Dilemma.

 

 

The Dayne Dilemma. All of them. Every single one of these people, alive or dead or whatever - their House, history, relationships, Dawn, Starfall, everything about them. The Daynes, who if you read the Harry Potter series, it occurred to me they are for someone like me who has read the entire series, like the Ravenclaw House of A Song of Ice and Fire. They have always factored in, little is known or discussed initially, but they will have more of a presence eventually, and certainly more stuff will be dug up posthumously. I’m giving them a possible one life, and I’m being generous there. That maybe one we think is dead is not. I can’t even consider more than that. They’re pressing their luck with me then.

 

 

They are photo-bombers like Quaithe. Rather, the memories of them are. Ok, let’s stir some stuff up, be mysterious, and then shove off from the story. Well, that is just Edric Dayne, the Dayne Defector, the it-turns-out-he-is ballsy kid that is actually very polite and seems ok, that ends up strolling off like a boss with a bunch of BWB, and Uncat and her backup dancers…well, through omission it seems that easy. We don’t know what happened, what they thought, etc. There has to be more to that too. And he seems like a nice fella with Arya, he just annoys the hell out of Gendry. Uh, it’s not just over wet hair. But that is hilarious.

 

 

 The rest of the Dayne lot we’ve never met. Not a Dayne, but in service to them, apparently very loyal services is the dangling Wylla cliffhanger tease: (Hey, guys I was at the most important events in the series, what kicked off the book, but you can’t meet me yet. I’ll just hang around Starfall and eat that popcorn) Yeah, that lady.

 

 

Regarding most of them, outside of Edric’s little cameo appearance. Or someone left that Dayne out in the rain (wet hair)….or Dorkstar and his…well, whatever that is about…It is almost always other people talking about them, because none of them are ever around, which makes it worse with other characters’ subjective memories, perhaps incorrect recollections, and highly likely, these recollections are a case of unreliable narrator. (Which I’m quite sure most are, even Barristan’s, which I will discuss eventually.) I don’t trust all of Ned’s delirium and Jaime may not know everything he thinks he does. Not sure here either. Like I think there is stuff he knows, stuff he interpreted wrong, and present also is the very common literary omission technique that is serving a purpose, etc. Jaime holds Arthur as a high example of what KG should be, and I’m not sure that is exactly what happened there. To his credit he knows Arthur more than we do. I think it’s the case of life gets in the way, heart and playing by the rules don’t jive, following duty and then what life really throws at you, following by the book vs. bending rules, people and what we or they think is right is usually all in conflict, as well as people’s differing interpretations of perception of events of the time, and lack of understanding to what was really going on. (For example, I think Brandon Stark got some bad or not quite correct info, and possibly on purpose. But that’s for another time.)  The narrators are even driven by emotion or have bad info, and don’t even mean to be unreliable. Meaning: They don’t know what the hell they are talking about regarding Daynes either. And they KNEW them. Drives me nuts. In a good way, though…and in a very enjoyable reading and thinking experience way. And I don’t have all the answers, so I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about either with these highly speculative topics. I just know what I don’t know. And the little that we can piece together, which can still be inaccurate.

 

 

P.S. I’m not going near Dorkstar today. I can’t. I just can’t. But I did have to mention him because he is a Dayne, just not a Starfall Dayne, which is the focus.

 

 

Ser Barristan and How One Can Misuse a Kodak Instamatic…or About This Whole Ashara Thing…

 

 

 

Only one fact remains clear: I change my mind about this, where I'm leaning, constantly.

What I do believe and hasn’t changed much:

1  .  I do think Wylla is important. Very important. Extremely important. And I think she is still alive and hasn’t left Starfall. And if poor Allyria ever married after the worst engagement story ever, she wasn’t going with her either. I knew only two things the first time I read book 1 and the first time I saw the scene on the show with Robert and Ned. Ned ain’t telling his wife and best friend the truth, that’s for damn sure. I don’t know why. He seems like a nice guy, but I think this is a can of worms here, and he’s not handing ANYONE the can opener. Or anything they can use as a makeshift tool. And Sean Bean portraying Ned did a hell of a marvelous job looking uncomfortable, pained, stubborn, annoyed, and adamant. Cool on the surface, but the eyes say something else. Keeping Ned in character that he’s not a gossipy sort like Robert’s verbal deliveries, and making it quite clear as Ned that he did NOT want to talk about it with King Robert, who he is supposedly good friends with, yet it was not just the gossip that bothered him, regarding the mixed emotions in his face and demeanor. All he needed to do was cover his ears and go “lalalalalala….I’m not listening….”  And Ned drives the point home that it is out of respect for his wife partly, but there is some more to it, some heavier crap permeating, so to speak. Translation: There is some definite skeleton closet action going down. It was not just an affair or fling. Even then I wasn't sure it even happened, but wasn't on to the bigger stuff.  I saw it with Gendry’s mother and speculation over time. I think the following, when I see  rehash due to the show, when the Cersei could be Gendry’s mom stuff pops up from time to time: “Sometimes a tavern wench is just a tavern wench in this series.” But in this case: “Sometimes a wet nurse really is NOT just a wet nurse.”

2.    I think if they put Wylla, Allyria, and Edric in a room and interrogated them under hot candlesticks, the stories wouldn't be the same. Meaning: Wylla knows the most truth, Allyria some she heard/observed from Ashara or other people, grayish areas Wylla told her/she observed, etc, Edric furthest from truth, most secondhand, dependent on what Wylla and Allyria tell him, possibly other people, may have observed/heard stuff he wasn’t supposed to or if any shit slipped. Now, if they had separate interviews? A shitload of inconsistencies. If together? Some would be looking at another or kick an ankle discreetly to cue the "shut the hell up" or butt in: “Well, I only told them that because…..what really happened is….(fill in any blanks) Well, I hope we can eventually. To reiterate, I’m not touching/going near Dorkstar today. I’m going, I am of the Night on this one, for now.

3.   I haven’t ruled out Ashara is dead. I can’t yet. ( More on that with LeMore later.)

4.   Arthur and Ashara are both not alive currently. In all probability, the highest wrong (buzzer sound) is that they are both alive, out of all possible scenarios. Just my opinion. Not everyone is in hiding. Too damn many of them then, meaning all the mysteries and people in the series. And more, but I don’t want to go off on a tangent. But some will be revealed. Too many clues and hints. But two in the same family? I think not. We already have all the Starks thinking everyone is dead. Cat comes back as Stoneheart. Jon comes back. Sansa and Arya are going through their id crises/issues. It has had it's dance. Time for the wind down in the next two books. Those that are true start coming out of the woodwork.

5.   Howland knows stuff. Duh. I think his kids do too. The little story they tell Bran was a small, maybe webbed middle finger to me, and that is how I took it. From the Reeds at their most Dumbledore. This is what is going on but I'm not telling you why. “Oh, you never heard….” No, I didn’t, Reeds, thanks for rubbing it in, so just fill me in. I know you and Dad know stuff. Spit it out and stop being all flowery with the nicknames and symbolism. I want facts, people. And cut the cloyingly-coy crap out with Bran. He needs info too.  So, basically, that is how we are told that other people know. One of many ways. The question arose in my mind that there are more people than we think? Other stuff also lead me to believe there are more people right in front of our noses too. And maybe more than just Howland and the kids. Benjen. Harwin. Many others, I would imagine. Those multipurpose, multi-serving passages. Just like Barbrey’s, which I will leave for another day, when I tear that one apart. Drives me nuts, too. Osha and Nan do this too. Also, drives me nuts.

I'll come back to this. Because as Ned knew, if you open a can of worms, its very hard to keep to keep them all together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey Bookie!    You're right about the Dayne's, everything about them leads to a head scratching moment at their end game.  But I think this is very deliberate on George's part.  In fact they seem to be important to various aspects of the series moving forward.

Wylla and Ashara and everything surrounding 'that' story arc, not sure how much more we will get, but Edric has let us know that this is common knowledge at Starfall. [Or at least some form of that story] 

Dawn and the fact it HAS TO BE significant.  Of course there is the theory that it is Lightbringer and much was made about Ned retuning it to Starfall etc.....

Dorkstar and whatever the hell he is up to.  I like the idea that he is the brooding, jealous cousin ready to try and steal Dawn away and prove his worth as a talented Dayne fighter.

Our favourite Edric, where the heck has he got to?  I hope we find out and that he is important in some way, he seems like a character GRRM can use to relay information around the Dayne's.

Their appearance is puzzling as well.  The white blond hair and purple eyes sound Valyrian, but George was asked about this and straight up said they were not Valyrian.  I don't know if you've read LML's theories, but the Dayne's appearance is important as it links the race pre Long Night, before Valyria.  It's possible one of them travelled to Westeros ages ago, around the time of the Long Night and stayed afterwards to create the Dayne line.  Their sword is certainly very old.

Basically everything about them is pretty much a mystery and left ambiguous.  I feel LML has given a very good explanation for their appearance, but still many a mystery.  I'm sure we will get some more info drip fed to us in TWOW, we will have to keep our eyes peeled.  We are definitely getting Dorkstar, him being on the run and all.  And let's hope for Edric sooner rather than later. 

Cheers Bookie.  BTW, I loved your intro...........................

Dayne, Dayne go away - Come again another day – (an intro, in case these people come up again on my thread after I cover some Ashara/Barrristan/misc. stuff that has been bugging me and has always bugged me.)   

Very funny............  

[Booknerd2]

20 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey Bookie!    You're right about the Dayne's, everything about them leads to a head scratching moment at their end game.  But I think this is very deliberate on George's part.  In fact they seem to be important to various aspects of the series moving forward.

Wylla and Ashara and everything surrounding 'that' story arc, not sure how much more we will get, but Edric has let us know that this is common knowledge at Starfall. [Or at least some form of that story] 

Dawn and the fact it HAS TO BE significant.  Of course there is the theory that it is Lightbringer and much was made about Ned retuning it to Starfall etc.....

Dorkstar and whatever the hell he is up to.  I like the idea that he is the brooding, jealous cousin ready to try and steal Dawn away and prove his worth as a talented Dayne fighter.

Our favourite Edric, where the heck has he got to?  I hope we find out and that he is important in some way, he seems like a character GRRM can use to relay information around the Dayne's.

Their appearance is puzzling as well.  The white blond hair and purple eyes sound Valyrian, but George was asked about this and straight up said they were not Valyrian.  I don't know if you've read LML's theories, but the Dayne's appearance is important as it links the race pre Long Night, before Valyria.  It's possible one of them travelled to Westeros ages ago, around the time of the Long Night and stayed afterwards to create the Dayne line.  Their sword is certainly very old.

Basically everything about them is pretty much a mystery and left ambiguous.  I feel LML has given a very good explanation for their appearance, but still many a mystery.  I'm sure we will get some more info drip fed to us in TWOW, we will have to keep our eyes peeled.  We are definitely getting Dorkstar, him being on the run and all.  And let's hope for Edric sooner rather than later. 

Cheers Bookie.  BTW, I loved your intro...........................

Dayne, Dayne go away - Come again another day – (an intro, in case these people come up again on my thread after I cover some Ashara/Barrristan/misc. stuff that has been bugging me and has always bugged me.)   

Very funny............  

Hey,

 I, for one, got lulled on a first read when I was trying to absorb so much info and reflect on past books, and I get side-tracked. I was so focused on personally thinking Dorkstar is a fool that I forgot for a moment….hey, he is a Dayne…of the mysterious Daynes. And I never forget the "dangerous man" bit. For a smart, calculating, careful, and patient man to say that about him…definitely something to keep on file in the mind.

Ned put the crackdown on talk at Winterfell. What Wylla, Allyria, and others say is curious. Somewhere Ned is slapping his forehead: "Can we keep the talk to a minimum? Really, people…" He would not want that, I am sure for the safety of Jone he made that VERY clear to Wylla. So why is she talking? Harder to live with of you bring it up, easier to slip that way too. I am very curious about her and what she's been up to these years. She is carrying with her the biggest secret in Westeros. 

Dorkstar. Loose cannon. Some type of agenda. Not sure what he is going to do. And also, what does he feel about Edric Dayne? Ready to step right over him? Thinks he is a little kid and could care less that he is THE Starfall Dayne.  And….where the hell is Edric Dayne? How do you walk away from Uncat and her boys and take people with you. And you know their whereabouts and how they operate. Is it really that easy? Was it? Is is just me or….I mean, they are not going to kill Edric because his name isn't Frey, Lannister, and for many reasons, yet they don't exactly follow rules and are on the fringes of society, but…I think I'm curious to know how that one went down. Or it is supporting material, just the author telling us that there are cracks in the Brotherhood, like Thoros complaining to Brienne. That Edric was totally up for fulfilling service to Beric, but once's he's gone, he's out and they can't stop him. And he did get Arya to start thinking there are other perspectives out there. Starts to prepare her for some surprises upon her return home.

No, I did not check out those theories. But I'd be interested. I've been busy and haven't been hopping around trying to get some posts going here. Sounds interesting. Let me know the title of the thread and I'll check it out. Would make a hell of a lot of sense. That sword is damn old, and it seems Daynes are already set up with stand out differences from other houses and their history. 

 

In general, I have more coming with Ashara and the Daynes. Something regarding all the Riverlands overlap I have to look over and finish, stuff that occurred to me with Barbrey, and more Riverlands-centric stuff too. But tonight….it's all about the show.

Whoahhh……Wolf Pack!

 

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hi Bookie. 

Here's the link to LML's theory.  Parts one and two explain the basics for the Dayne stuff and there is another post further down that links the Dayne's as well.  Really LML's theories all mix into one but this should give you the basic idea.  Message me if not.

And I recommend reading all his essays when you have time, some really good stuff.