The Riverlands Web V.7

[LongRider]

By all means, look into Tyroshi beard colors, you might find something interesting.     A thought, GRRM mentioned Greenbeard in Storm, and brings back the beard colors later, mostly in Dance.  He's a detail guy, that GRRM.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Seems like they dye the hair and beards various colors. At one point Dany said Daario's beard was purple, like his eyes were almost purple (I think she was willing him to be a Targaryen, or maybe that was his dragony nature peeking through).

I once looked at all of the hair color of each Tyroshi we meet, and although green is the most prevalent, it's not by much, and I couldn't discern any patterns. (I was hoping to find another subtle Tyrosh-Blackfyre link.)

[Le Cygne]

By all means, look into Tyroshi beard colors, you might find something interesting.     A thought, GRRM mentioned Greenbeard in Storm, and brings back the beard colors later, mostly in Dance.  He's a detail guy, that GRRM.

He does that. Uses certain things more in one book than another. One thing he is welcome to stop using consistently is tummy... I saw purple used for others, too. I think he is just saying colorful and exotic with all of that.

[Lord Wraith]

I once looked at all of the hair color of each Tyroshi we meet, and although green is the most prevalent, it's not by much, and I couldn't discern any patterns. (I was hoping to find another subtle Tyrosh-Blackfyre link.)

I think the Blackfyre/Tyrosh connection weakened considerable after the War of Ninepenny Kings. The Band of Nine captured Tyrosh and the Blackfyre helped. So I'd imagine the new Tyroshi leadership isn't as friendly as they would have been in the past.

Doran was fostering the green haired daughter of the Archon of Tyroshi so I think that is one of the connections.

[LongRider]

Just a few short comments about the Arya chapters in Storm that she spent with the BWB.   As Arya travels with the outlaw band, they trace the trails of the Kingslayer and the Northmen 'wolves' looking to find Jaime Lannister.   Jaime, Bri and Cleos were set up to have their horses stolen by Tom, Lem and Anguy, but they gave them the slip.  The BWB, never put it together who bought the horses they had set up for the steal.

After being caught by Tom, Lem and Anguy, Arya and party are taken to the inn of the Kneeling Man where Husband, the innkeep, tells them of the three horses sold to Bri. The horses Tom, Lem and Anguy were looking for they found Arya.  Husband told the outlaws

"Three," said Lem scornfully, "but one a woman and t'other in chains, you said so yourself."
Husband made a face. "A big woman, dressed like a man. And the one in chains . . . I didn't fancy the look of his eyes."

Of course, this was Jamie, Brienne and Cleos Frey.   It's the next chapter that they learn the Kingslayer had escaped, but that was all they were told.   It was later, when talking to Lady Smallwood, she tells them that it was Lady Catelyn that set him free.

Later, Arya overhears gossip when the band has stopped for the night at the Peach

 In the corner by the window Lem and Harwin sat talking to red-haired Tansy in low voices. ". . . spent the night in Jaime's cell," she heard the woman say. "Her and this other wench, the one who slew Renly. All three o' them together, and come the morn Lady Catelyn cut him loose for love." She gave a throaty chuckle.
It's not true, Arya thought. She never would. She felt sad and angry and lonely, all at once.

As the outlaws made their way toward Beric, the thread of Jaime is there, but eludes them.  It also eludes the Northmen looking for Jaime, as at each stop the people tell them various stories of them looking for the Kingslayer. 

The trail of the wolves start when the outlaws are told by the folks in the burned out village

Arya was sucking the last bit of meat off a wing when one of the villagers turned to Lem Lemoncloak and said, "There were men through here not two days past, looking for the Kingslayer."

Next the Lady of the Leaves offers this bit of information 

"We cannot stay here much longer, with autumn on us," she told them. "A dozen wolves went down the Hayford road nine days past, hunting. If they'd chanced to look up they might have seen us."

She did not say if the wolves were hunting men or beasts. Later on Lady Smallwood tells them 

 She took a sip of wine. "You'd best know, I've had less pleasant callers as well. A pack of wolves came howling around my gates, thinking I might have Jaime Lannister in here."

The trail of the Northmen takes a dramatic turn later at Stoney Sept, where in the market square several crows cages were hung with men inside, men dead or dying.  There were wolves caught and caged on the orders of the Mad Huntsman because 

"What did they do?" she asked him.

"They put eight people to the sword at Tumbler's Falls," he said. "They wanted the Kingslayer, but he wasn't there so they did some rape and murder." He jerked a thumb toward the corpse with maggots where his manhood ought to be. "That one there did the raping. Now move along."

 A nice parallel of the elusive Kingslayer, who the BWB want to find, and the Northmen looking for them, who the BWB would rather not run into.  If Bri hadn't realized that they had been set up to have their horses stolen, the Tom, Lem, and Anguy would have had captured the Kingslayer!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

PQ#26                  A COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT PIPER AND VANCE

Hey Webbers!  Finally this is my Piper and Vance essay.  I apologize for the length of it, I wanted to quote as I go to get a full picture of their story so far.  I had quite underestimated how many times these guys had appeared with a word to say or a raid to complete in the series.  I have researched in chapter/book order, therefore will post as such with some musings in between some quotes from the text. I will also quote a couple of small things regarding possible BWB connections. 

I have been thorough in an attempt to show these minor characters as well fleshed out, having a role all of their own, having been ever present in the series, and are ones to watch for sure.  I hope the book by book format I take will break up a reasonably long read [Due to quotes]……………

The first time we hear of the Houses Piper and Vance is in Catelyn VII, AGOT.  Whilst Cat is at the Eyrie, she receives a letter from RR, it is read to her.    

‘’Your brother writes that he has sent riders to the rock, demanding that lord Tywin proclaim his intent, but he has no answer.  Edmure has commanded Lord Vance and Lord Piper to guard the pass below the Golden Tooth.  He vows to you that he will yield no foot of Tully land without first watering it with Lannister blood.’’

This early association of the houses confirms they are well thought of nobles from the Riverland’s, with a reasonable force of men.  But also gives us as readers our first glance of Piper and Vance together.

The next time we hear of any P&V action is Eddard XI, when they visit Ned in King’s Landing, seeking audience with King Robert after the horrors of the RL’s and Sherrer.  They have villagers in tow and plenty to say.  There is a lot of dialogue for Karyl Vance, Marq Piper and co in this chapter, so will only quote some of the sections I feel gives us background on our subjects.

Ned:  ‘’Did they wear crimson cloaks or fly a lion banner?’’

‘’Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that,’’ Marq Piper snapped.  He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned’s taste, though a fast friend of Catelyn’s brother, Edmure Tully.

‘’Every man among them was mounted and mailed my lord,’’ Ser Karyl Vance answered ‘calmly’. ‘’They were armed with steel tipped lances and longswords, with battle axes for the butchering.’’

It’s noted early on that Karyl is melancholy and calm, while his friend Marq is brash and hot-headed.  I think it’s funny how Karyl has to butt in ’calmly’ as if to sooth the tension his friend Marq may have created.  And we seem to have a double act George can play with here, awesome.    

The villagers go on to talk of the horrific raids in the RL’s, but a little later in the conversation, Littlefinger asks where these three knights were when these raids on their local lands happened. 

Ser Karyl Vance answered. ‘’I was attending my father in the pass below the Golden Tooth, as was Ser Marq.  When the word of these outrages reached Ser Edmure Tully, he sent word that we should take a small force of men to find what survivors we could and bring them to the king.’’

Littlefinger stroked the point of his beard thoughtfully. ‘’And if they come again, Ser?

‘’If they come again we’ll use their blood to water the fields they burnt,’’ Ser Marq declared hotly.

‘’Ser Edmure has sent men to every village and holdfast within a day’s ride of the border.’’ Ser Karyl explained. ‘’The next raider will not have such an easy time of it.’’

Again this seems like Karyl smoothing the way after another outburst from Marq, ever the diplomat.   But also we get a clearer picture of Karyl and Marq’s movements, they were with their Lord fathers at the Golden Tooth, but came away as key representatives to gather the survivors from the RL’s and head to KL. 

Another point of note from this chapter is that Ned refused Marq his vengeance on the Mountain and instead sent the force led by Beric Dondarrion, including our favorite Red Priest, Thoros of Myr.  Although Marq may have been bummed at his not gaining permission to avenge the Lannister’s, it seems he may just kind of follow Beric’s lead anyway and start to scheme and raid. 

As we see when Tyrion meets up with Tywin at the Inn at the Crossroads in Tyrion VII.  Having met with his father and Kevan, Vale clans in tow, they discuss their current situation regards the war.   

‘’Ser Edmure had scattered small troops of men along his borders to stop our raiding, and your lord father and I were able to destroy most of them piecemeal before they could regroup.’’     ‘’Your brother has been covering himself in glory,’’ his father said ‘’ He smashed the lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tully’s under the walls of Riverrun.  The lords of the Trident have been put to rout.  Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen……………

This is when we get confirmation that Jaime’s forces smashed that of Lords Vance and Piper, and we later find out this includes the death of Lord Vance.  Lord Clement Piper however was able to retreat to safety.  But we hear of their sons again straight away, as Tywin complains………..

‘’Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork.’’ 

Tyrion reflects this is probably normal in the middle of war and perhaps fair play…….then………                                                           

‘’We also have a pair of Ned Stark’s afterthoughts making a nuisance of themselves by harassing my foraging parties.  Beric Dondarrion, some young lordling with delusions of valor.  He has that jape of priest with him, the one who likes to set his sword on fire.’’

After knowing that Piper & Vance wanted to avenge the RL’s for Lannister routing.  And also being in the same company/location as Beric and his 120 men when they set out from KL.  Plus the association we as Webbers put between these players, I thought this interesting.  It’s not the last time they are mentioned in the same chapter, doing the same things, raiding Lannister supplies and foraging parties etc…….

In Sansa V we are informed that Karyl is to bend the knee to Joffery or be declared a traitor.  However he and Marq were at RR in Tyrion IX.  And this chapter tells of the capture of Jaime and their loss at RR.  Ser Harys Swift, Kevan, Tyrion etc……discuss how Jaime’s siege of RR went so wrong.  When questioning a messenger about the defeat there was one name that popped up a lot, Marq Piper.  It seems Marq was instrumental in weakening their supplies and information.  And was potentially instrumental in the capture of Jaime Lannister!

They came down on the north camp first.  No one was expecting an attack.  Marq Piper had been raiding our supply trains, but he had no more than fifty men.  Ser Jaime had gone out to deal with them the night before…well, with what we thought was them.  We were told the Stark host was east of the Green Fork, marching south…’’

The Mountain replies. ‘’And your outriders?  They saw nothing?  They gave you no warning?’’     The bloodstained messenger shook his head. ‘’Our outriders had been vanishing.  Marq Piper’s work, we thought.  The ones who did come back had seen nothing.’’

So all the while RR was under siege, Marq had been on the periphery of everything, killing Lannister outriders and probably no less severe on the Lannister supply trains.  But notably it seems it was Marq and his men’s presence that drew Jaime out from relative safety, thinking there were only perhaps 50 men to deal with.  This of course played into Robb’s hands perfectly, and they were able to catch Jaime and hold him hostage, while at the same time spring a surprise attack on the enemy. This chapter is descriptive in its tale from the messenger, and Marq’s accomplishments could perhaps be overlooked amongst the RR mayhem.  But they are vitally important in helping take back RR.

There are also reports of someone else’s presence, and another Beric mention.

 ‘’But the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe.’’

Later when Tywin is surveying the situation. ‘’Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties.’’

So, the Stark host, Piper and Vance, Greenbeard and Beric and Thoros not far away.  All in the same place, fighting for same side and working towards very similar goals. [Smashing Lannisters]  It seems another perfect time for any talk of tactics, guerilla style.  Protecting the smallfolk and the RL’s from all angles.  Greenbeard certainly ended up in the BWB from this vantage point in the story.  Also this is another chapter where P&V and Beric & Thoros are mentioned closely together as pains in Tywin’s behind, raiding and foraging. 

Our next glimpse at the terrible twosome is in Catelyn XI after they are all inside RR, Robb calls a war council meeting in the great hall.  Karyl and Marq are present. 

‘’Word of the victory at Riverrun had spread to the fugitive lords of the Trident, drawing them back.  Karyl Vance came in, a lord now, his father dead beneath the Golden Tooth.  Ser Marq Piper was with him, and they brought a Darry, Ser Raymun’s son, a lad no older than Bran.’’

Many of the Lords bannermen wanted to meet Lord Tywin and end Lannister power for all time.  Young, hot-tempered Marq Piper urged a strike west at Casterly Rock instead.  Still others counseled patience.

Marq also claims. ‘’Whatever you may decide for yourselves, I shall never call a Lannister my king.’’

So as soon as they could safely travel, they were back at RR and straight onto Robb’s war council.  Lord Karyl was quiet throughout the talks, perhaps to be expected, but Marq was on form again, shouting the odds.  He is a lively one. 

IN CONCLUSION

We have been introduced to these families early in the piece, and they have had a continued presence throughout various chapters. [Research headache]  And this spans from as early as the guarding of the Golden Tooth.  Having heard their plight at KL, Ned would not allow the ‘vengeance’ they seek, so they raided and harassed Lannister’s anyway.

They did this in much the same way as Beric & Thoros, and was mentioned as such.  And this often within a few pages of one another.  Having been keen to basically do what Beric and co are doing, I find it interesting they are on the same turf[ish] pulling off the same tricks, and all towards the same ends.  Surely they have had some sort of communication?  Or maybe they are just happening upon different Lannister parties while never bumping into each other?  I don’t know, but it seems… odd.

Anyway, it sets the scene for us to watch out for these families.  And Marq in particular with his RR siege heroics, has helped Robb immensely 

ACOK

Not a great deal happens with regards Karyl and Marq in ACOK, though they were mentioned a couple of times.  In Catelyn I Edmure convinces Robb that he should let the River lords go home and protect/repair their own lands. 

‘’Ser Marq Piper and Lord Karyl Vance had been the first to go.’’ 

And also in Catelyn VI Lord Karyl Vance held a number of the fords successfully in the Battle of the Fords.  This after Cat had seen Piper banners in a camp north of the Tumblestones, no doubt with Vance’s camp.  This comes to fruition when we later find out…..

‘’He also told of fighting further upstream, where Lord Karyl Vance held the fords.  Those thrusts too were turned aside, at grievous cost to our foes.’’

If nothing else these fleeting mentions serve to remind us of their continued presence in the RL’s.

ASOS

In Cat IV we read about Hoster’s funeral, and apart from Lame Lothar Frey [who Robb had there for political reasons] we are in the presence of loyal RL’s bannermen.  Including our double act.

‘’Seven were chosen to push the funeral boat to the water, in honor of the seven faces of god.  Robb was one, Lord Hoster’s liege lord.  With him were the Lords Bracken, Blackwood, Vance, and Mallister, Ser Marq Piper….and Lame Lothar Frey, who had come down from the Twins, forty soldiers rode in his escort commanded by Walder Rivers.’’

It was noted after the funeral that the River Lords were mingling and chatting, and of course Edmure and the Blackfish are present.  This seems like a great chance for these key Lords to discuss anything they know.  Lords Bracken, Blackwood, Vance and Piper are certainly potential ‘players of the political game’ later in AFFC.  There are, however, plenty of Frey’s about and the rest of this chapter is full of bad Stark news, [Winterfell had burned, Bran, Rickon etc..] nevertheless these River lords had ample opportunity to talk tactics so to speak, or what they know of Beric and the BWB?  Etc………

Next up is the RW…………… We don’t see Karyl for the rest of the book, which surprises me, Marq seems so friendly with Edmure you would think Karyl was too?  Obviously not.  Whatever, if he went to the RW, then he was nowhere to be seen, and he escaped.  But perhaps more likely, he simply didn’t go. 

In Cat V we have the journey to the Red Wedding.  Ser Marq accompanied Edmure to the Twins and had some fun at his expense on the way…..

‘’With so many different mothers, a few of the maids are bound to turn up comely,’’ said Ser Marq Piper, ‘’but why should the old wretch give you a pretty one?’’     Ha! 

While Karyl Vance wasn’t there, some of the secondary Vance house were, all good friends of Edmure’s,

‘The next day he avoided her [Cat] entirely on the march, preferring the company of Marq Piper, Lymond Goodbrook, Patrek Mallister, and the young Vance’s.

The young Vances mentioned are Ser Ronald ‘the bad’, Ser Ellery, Ser Hugo and Kirth Vance from Atranta.  They are very minor characters, one pops up again, but more on these guys in a future post.

In Cat VI, once we are at the wedding, Marq is mentioned a couple of times.  He was seen in the hall….’’Ser Marq Piper and Ser Danwell Frey played a drinking game’’ and after a bit of banter and some Tully fish jokes, Marq got involved in the bedding ceremony. ‘’She’s crying too, Catelyn realized as she watched Ser Marq Piper pull off one of the bride’s shoes.’’

 This is last time we see Marq and he is still a captive at the Twins, although soon to be released for TWOW. [Thanks to his father Clement, more in AFFC]  Of the four young Vance’s, there are three whose whereabouts are unknown, they may be at Atranta, or it is possible they are also held at the twins.  Those being Ronald, Ellery and Kirth Vance.  Although we do know they are unharmed.

With an eye on BWB involvement, we mustn’t forget what Beric said in Arya VIII.  ‘’Sharna will know something, the Vance maester will know more.’’

The raiding and killing of Lannisters alongside Beric and co is one thing.  Having one of their maesters as a confirmed BWB spy is another.  These guys are in contact, or so I think anyway.

IN CONCLUSION

At this point, as we know, it doesn’t look good for any of the Riverlanders, or the northerners for that matter, let alone the Stark’s………….  The Vance and Piper alliance will now have to come into its own, and work out what the hell they are going to do about this.  Of the three main players, Lord Clement Piper, his son Marq and Lord Karyl Vance, only one is imprisoned at the Twins, Marq.  However, they had nieces, nephews, friends, knights etc….. all present and all dear to their hearts.  And let’s not forget Norbert Vance.  Not only because his name is amazing, but he has sons potentially there too.  Any plans for retribution start here!!

I’m pretty sure any BWB connection would help such plans.  So it’s nice to know the Vance maester is on board, as I’m sure are the Lords Piper & Vance themselves.  This on top of any possible communication previously between P&V and Beric & co. I think we got something to work with?  And I think we see this happen in AFFC.

AFFC

As Jaime starts his venture towards RR from KL, we are informed he has a couple of hostages in tow.  Lew Piper, who is Marq’s younger brother is the first mentioned.  [Jaime III]

A Paege, a Piper, and a Peckledon would share the honour of squiring for the Lord Commander. ‘’Keep friends at your back and foes where you can see them’’

Little Lew Piper came galloping up with a helm full of blackberries…..

Next we hear of a Vance of Atranta in Jaime’s entourage while at Darry, Edmure’s friend Hugo………. [Jaime IV]

Ser Dermot rode beside him with the royal stag and line, and Ser Hugo Vance with the white standard of the Kingsgaurd.

Hugo Vance had closed his eyes.  Brooding on the mysteries of life, thought Jaime.  That or napping between courses.

So we have confirmation that houses Vance and Piper have young members of their family in Jaime’s entourage.  I see no evidence that they could be spying due to their awkward position, but surely the families concerned would like them back, if politics allows it.  And in the final two chapters we get to see P&V, we finally get these scheming houses start to work their magic.  Onto RR………

In Jaime VI, after the Blackfish had refused Jaime’s terms at RR, he commands a war council be assembled….

They gathered quickly.  Lord Piper [Clement] and both Lords Vance [Karyl & Norbert] came to speak for the repentant lords of the Trident, whose loyalties would shortly be put to the test.

 ‘’Hang Edmure Tully for a start,’’ urged Lord Emmon Frey.

‘’Brynden Blackfish is not moved so easily.’’ Karyl Vance, the Lord of Wayfarer’s Rest, had a melancholy look.  A wine stain birthmark covered half his neck and one side of his face. ‘’His own brother could not move him to a marriage bed.’’    

This is another example of Karyl showing a wise calmness during heated debate.  Of course he is [secretly] on the BF’s side, but to deflect such harsh treatment with a deft calm takes a lot of skill and wit.  I think we have been shown he has such abilities before, but this certainly shows a wise head.

This next bit of text is I think important, and is the start of any potential P&V scheming IMHO.  The Riverlander’s seem to have a minor dispute that leads to Clement exploding at Edwyn Frey about his son Marq and his imprisonment at the Twins.      

 ‘’I have known Brynden Tully since we were squires together, in service to Lord Darry,’’ said Norbert Vance, the blind Lord of Atranta. ‘’If it please my lords, let me go and speak with him and try to make him understand the hopelessness of his position.’’

‘’He understands that well enough,’’ said Lord Piper. [Clement] ‘’The man’s not bloody stupid, Norbert.  He has eyes… and too much sense to yield to such as these.’’ He made a rude gesture in the direction of Edwyn Frey and Walder Rivers.

Edwyn bristled. ‘’If my lord of Piper means to imply……’’

‘’I don’t imply, Frey.  I say what I mean straight out, like an honest man.  But what would you know of the ways of honest men?  You’re a treacherous lying weasel, like all your kin.  I’d sooner drink a pint of piss than take the word of any Frey.’’  He leaned across the table. ‘’Where is Marq, answer me that?  What have you done with my son?  He was a guest at your bloody wedding………..Five knights and twenty men-at-arms went with Marq to the Twins,’’ said Piper. ‘’Are they your guests as well Frey?’’

Edwyn replies. ‘’Some of the knights, perhaps. The others were served no more than they deserved. You’d do well to guard your traitors tongue, Piper, unless you want your heir returned in pieces.’’

Just as Lord Clement and Edwyn looked as though they were going to come to blows, Jaime steps in and eventually calms things down.  Lord Clement, having I think made his point, then stormed out of the tent. And he does have a point, they have bent the knee and would resent the Frey’s holding their family. [Even if I think they are scheming]

This whole argument and it being in front of Jaime was I think deliberate.  It was Norbert Vance and Clement Piper who had a minor disagreement in tactics, leading to Clement going mad at Edwyn about the release of the prisoners from the Twins, his son in particular, Marq.  But most importantly all this happened in front of Jaime, with some calming words about Clement’s grief from Lord Karyl afterwards.  Anyway, whether deliberate or not, it seems to have had a desirable result as Jaime later declares……………

‘’Send word to Lord Walder.  The crown requires all his prisoners.’’ Jaime waved his golden hand.

Finally, and to conclude, in Jaime VII, after having conformation of the captive’s release, and that they are definitely heading for KL with the opportunity for a ransom, we get Lord Karyl’s advice for Jaime…

The Lords of the Trident came to Jaime asking his leave to return to their own lands.  He granted it.  Lord Piper also wanted to know about his son Marq. ‘’All the captives will be ransomed,’’ Jaime promised.  As the Riverlords took their leave, Lord Karyl Vance lingered to say, ‘’Lord Jaime, you must go to Raventree.  So long as it is Jonos at his gates Tytos will never yield, but I know he will bend his knee for you.’’  Jaime thanked him for his counsel.

As we know, Jaime acted on this advice and went to Raventree with a far smaller retinue than he had with him at RR.  This seemed to have gone rather well, stopping the siege, gaining two more squires/hostages etc….  But he is then confronted with Brienne and promises of Sansa’s whereabouts, in the presence of the Hound no less!  He must go immediately!  And alone!

But hold on!  How did Brienne find him so easily?  She just rocked up as if she knew he’d be there.  This seems odd.  Hmmm.  But what if the BWB could somehow know where he was going to be?  Well I think that’s exactly what happened.  

We have early insinuations that Beric & co are basically doing the exact same thing as P&V, from KL onwards, all in same area, and all to same ends.  Then we have the confirmation that the Vance maester is in on the act, and helping the BWB.  Add the whores, Tom ‘o’ Sevens etc……… So communication is not a problem.

Being on Jaime’s war council, I think P&V had two main things to achieve.  Firstly the release of the prisoners, which was successful.  And secondly, to try and isolate Jaime away from RR and his larger retinue.  So basically I feel Karyl was well aware that the BWB were in position to strike, if only he could get Jaime to travel to Raventree, Ha!  And all this happens just as people are leaving RR, thinking everything was sorted and coming to end.  This seems perfect.

This notion of a coherence between RL nobles and the BWB is strengthened when we meet another whore at the siege of Raventree, Hildy, perhaps another spy?  Then Lord Blackwood is rather insistent on wanting to know Jaime’s exact destination. ‘’Kings Landing or Riverrun?’’   [Paraphrasing]  So this looks to me as if Jaime was tricked into weakening his position away from RR, ready for capture by a BWB in full knowledge of his whereabouts, thanks in no small part to Lord Karyl Vance and his maester of course. [Perhaps Bracken & Blackwood as well]  TWOW is gonna be awesome!  Can’t wait for these RL arcs! 

Again I apologize for the length of this essay, but having spoken about these guys a lot I wanted to quote and have their full story/movements in one place.  Hopefully this fleshed out their characters a bit as well.  I have another fun post about GRRM and his Jack Vance influence to come.  Thank you for reading.    

PS:  The font has changed from my word document and I can't seem to change it.     

 

[LongRider]

Well done Wizz Kidd!  Your efforts at research have made Piper and Vance more understandable for me.  It's nice to overlay two noble families over the small folk that interact with the BWB as they all have their parts to play.  Not only did Bri know exactly where to go to find Jaime (I think she must of had an BWB escort off stage) but LSH had Robb's crown in her possession, last seen being worn by the 'Queen of Whores'.   Such a strong indirect link to smallfolk spys in the BWB

The smallfolk kept reporting to Tom, Lem and Anguy about the movements of wolves and lions as the three moved among them.  Small bits of intelligence as they moved throughout the RL.  While the nobles may have more formal and reliable communications, the links, such as the Vance maester who talks to the smallfolk and then his noble, give evidence of a larger link already in play.   

Hopefully there will be Freys left to hang once Marq is ransomed. 

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Well done Wizz Kidd!  Your efforts at research have made Piper and Vance more understandable for me.  It's nice to overlay two noble families over the small folk that interact with the BWB as they all have their parts to play.  Not only did Bri know exactly where to go to find Jaime (I think she must of had an BWB escort off stage) but LSH had Robb's crown in her possession, last seen being worn by the 'Queen of Whores'.   Such a strong indirect link to smallfolk spys in the BWB

The smallfolk kept reporting to Tom, Lem and Anguy about the movements of wolves and lions as the three moved among them.  Small bits of intelligence as they moved throughout the RL.  While the nobles may have more formal and reliable communications, the links, such as the Vance maester who talks to the smallfolk and then his noble, give evidence of a larger link already in play.   

Hopefully there will be Freys left to hang once Marq is ransomed. 

 

Hey, thanks Longie!  I was worried it was getting a little too long, but stuck to my plan to have a 'comprehensive' look at the two. 

1st Bold]  That makes it all worth while, I'm chuffed with that.  I knew there was a cool little arc to be highlighted, with plenty of involvement, but a lot of Asoiaf fans could be forgiven for asking Piper and who?  It helped my understanding a little more as well,  the fact Piper & Vance raiding is always mentioned so closely in the text to Beric & co doing the same, and in the same area etc.....

2nd & 3rd Bold]  I agree, an escort is probable, I'm not sure Brienne would know the land well enough to just say 'go to Pennytree', plus they would want eyes on her at all times I would have thought, so as not to escape. 

And exactly, the links go deep and at many levels.  Small folk, Nobles, their maesters, whores, etc...........  Them being on Jaime's war council, and ability to influence is utilised by the BWB.  We can only speculate who's pulling strings, but P&V were important players at RR.    

[Lord Wraith]

Hey Wizz the piece on Piper and Vance was very interesting. Interesting to note those two connection to House Darry as well. Raymun Darry accompanies the pair to King's Landing. He later "dies" at the Battle of the Mummer's Ford despite not being ordered to. Its kind of like how Piper and Vance go to raid the Westerlands. Still  Berric notes that Darry men were among the founding members of the Brotherhood without Banners.

Later they bring with them the young Lyman Darry to Riverrun as you noted above. The Blackfish later tells Cat that young Lyman was "killed" as well.  Interesting to note that both Blackfish and Norbert Vance both squired for House Darry in their youths.

If your essay shows us anything is that certain of the Riverlords have been very busy working behind the scenes are and some are certainly helping the BWB.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey Wizz the piece on Piper and Vance was very interesting. Interesting to note those two connection to House Darry as well. Raymun Darry accompanies the pair to King's Landing. He later "dies" at the Battle of the Mummer's Ford despite not being ordered to. Its kind of like how Piper and Vance go to raid the Westerlands. Still  Berric notes that Darry men were among the founding members of the Brotherhood without Banners.

Later they bring with them the young Lyman Darry to Riverrun as you noted above. The Blackfish later tells Cat that young Lyman was "killed" as well.  Interesting to note that both Blackfish and Norbert Vance both squired for House Darry in their youths.

If your essay shows us anything is that certain of the Riverlords have been very busy working behind the scenes are and some are certainly helping the BWB.

Thanks Lord Wraith!  I thought the fact that Beric & co were always mentioned in the text so closely together as Piper & Vance was interesting as well.  On the same turf, raiding the same parties, yet never bumping into one another?  Seems odd...... and the later link between the BWB and house's Vance & Piper seems to implicate some sort of communication early in the text for me.  Plus the significant role Marq played in the capture of Jaime.

But anyway, I knew as I wrote this and contemplated Darry involvement [too long an essay] that you would be ticking with Darry thoughts.    It needs it's own discussion really, but here are some brief thoughts.

I take it you are in the 'There is a male Darry hiding somewhere' crew, which by the way isn't a crew to be scoffed at until proven otherwise.  George does hide characters for various reasons, and Darry is mentioned a lot, especially in AGOT.  And we have Jonothor Darry's mysterious disappearance. [For another post]  However, I do think Raymund is dead, this happened so early [in 298 I think] that it doesn't make any sense to me that he would hide at that point and leave his young Lyman to fend for himself. [With Piper & Vance of course]  It just doesn't seem a good tactic, if you were to hide someone, it would be the young heir.  So yeah, I do think unfortunately that Raymund is dead.

Young Lord Lyman however could well be hidden IMO.  We are told of his death second hand, and although a surprise attack could be fatal, to be so relaxed around the last Darry heir seems sloppy.  He has been around some of the notable schemers in this series in Piper & Vance, so a clever cover up isn't out of the question.  And we know the Riverland's has many a hiding hole.  But........ we have no real evidence other than that GRRM perhaps does this sometimes, so all speculation I suppose.   

If it were to be anywhere I would say Wayfarer's Rest and Atranta are as good a place as any.  It's very hard to say.  Let's hope that there is a Darry heir out there somewhere and that they make a mind blowing comeback., that would be sweet!     

[Wizz-The-Smith]

THE INFLUENCE OF JACK VANCE

Firstly it’s no secret that George is a huge fan of Jack Vance, so it makes sense he would perhaps tip the literary cap to his work so to speak.  So it should come as no surprise to us that we have the two Houses Vance in the Riverlands.  An obvious allusion to one of GRRM’s favourite authors.  However, George cleverly inserts plenty of other nods to JV’s work, as I found in my Vance research.  The following information was gathered from the Wiki. 

There are obviously a lot of characters to name in this series, let alone the castles etc……….  But a study of the Vance families gives us a clue as to one of the ways he goes about it. [Albeit on a small scale]   We’ll start with the ‘smaller in number,’ yet senior House of Vance, of which our melancholy friend Karyl is Lord.

                                           HOUSE VANCE OF WAYFARER’S REST                         

Their sigil is Quartered, a black dragon on a white field and two golden eyes in a golden ring on a black field.

The dragons in the sigil refer to one of JV’s works ‘The Dragon Masters’ and the ‘golden eyes’ to his ‘The Eyes of the Overworld’ series.  [The golden eyes are interesting, GRRM uses them as a sign of telepathy in some of his other works, Direwolves, COTF, etc...... Maybe something to watch?] 

Anyway, onto the name of the castle, ‘Wayfarer’s Rest’.  This is another literary nod to Vance’s work, this time his ‘Liane the Wayfarer’ short story.

There is no obvious link to be found around Lord Karyl Vance himself, but he has three daughters that we have yet to meet in the series, they are only mentioned.  Liane, Rhialta and Emphyria.

Liane Vance is a reference to the afore mentioned ‘Liane the Wayfarer’

Rhialta Vance is a nod to the short story by JV, ‘Rhialto the Marvellous’

And Emphyria Vance is an inspiration from Vance’s novel ‘Emphyrio’

These are some cool nods, but why not have a secondary house if you have some more!

                            HOUSE VANCE OF ATRANTA                                               

Their sigil is Quartered, a green dragon on a white field and a white tower on a black field.

Again the ‘dragons’ in the sigil refer to JV’s ‘The Dragon Masters’ and this time the ‘towers’ represent Vance’s novel ‘The Last Castle’.

As for the name of the castle, ‘Atranta’.  This is a nod to a land in one of JV’s novels ‘Bad Ronald’ of which they later made a film BTW.  Onto the family…………

The blind Lord ‘Norbert’ Vance is again a reference to the novel ‘Bad Ronald’.  Norbert is a main character from this book.  What about his sons? .................

Ser Ronald ‘the bad’ Vance is a cool name, and funny once you realise this is another play on the novel ‘Bad Ronald’.  Ha!  Nice one George.

Ser Hugo Vance should be a little more familiar from my Piper & Vance essay.  And his association with Jack Vance is slightly different.  This a nod to JV’s [I think] three Hugo awards, rather than a book/novel itself.  And of course George is no stranger to a Hugo award! 

Ser Ellery Vance is a clever nod to Jack Vance himself as he sometimes wrote under the pseudonym name of Ellery Queen, only Vance’s biggest fans would’ve caught that I reckon. 

Kirth Vance is the final use of a reference for JV’s work, and is an allusion to a character named Kirth Gerson , the main protagonist of Vance’s ‘Demon Princes’ series.

And the final son Jon Vance, who is a maester at the Citadel.  No obvious link with Jon, but I am now on the lookout for a Vance maester to perhaps help Sam somehow.  Probably not!    

These are just a few easter eggs and don’t mean anything moving forward.  But as I was finding this information and was researching House Vance, thought it worth a post.  However with JV being such an inspiration to GRRM, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Vance’s have some more involvement moving forward.    

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Here's a clip of the creepy 'Bad Ronald'.  The first minute of the clip is surreal as 'Prince Norbert' mentions names familiar to us!    Not sure what George thought of this film, but it certainly has you on edge!    

[LongRider]

Now that was interesting Wizz, I've read a bit of Vance, might try to find more of his stuff to read.  And the name 'Hugo Vance', that has to be a reference to the Hugo awards, very clever.  

[Lord Wraith]

Thanks Lord Wraith!  I thought the fact that Beric & co were always mentioned in the text so closely together as Piper & Vance was interesting as well.  On the same turf, raiding the same parties, yet never bumping into one another?  Seems odd...... and the later link between the BWB and house's Vance & Piper seems to implicate some sort of communication early in the text for me.  Plus the significant role Marq played in the capture of Jaime.

But anyway, I knew as I wrote this and contemplated Darry involvement [too long an essay] that you would be ticking with Darry thoughts.    It needs it's own discussion really, but here are some brief thoughts.

I take it you are in the 'There is a male Darry hiding somewhere' crew, which by the way isn't a crew to be scoffed at until proven otherwise.  George does hide characters for various reasons, and Darry is mentioned a lot, especially in AGOT.  And we have Jonothor Darry's mysterious disappearance. [For another post]  However, I do think Raymund is dead, this happened so early [in 298 I think] that it doesn't make any sense to me that he would hide at that point and leave his young Lyman to fend for himself. [With Piper & Vance of course]  It just doesn't seem a good tactic, if you were to hide someone, it would be the young heir.  So yeah, I do think unfortunately that Raymund is dead.

Young Lord Lyman however could well be hidden IMO.  We are told of his death second hand, and although a surprise attack could be fatal, to be so relaxed around the last Darry heir seems sloppy.  He has been around some of the notable schemers in this series in Piper & Vance, so a clever cover up isn't out of the question.  And we know the Riverland's has many a hiding hole.  But........ we have no real evidence other than that GRRM perhaps does this sometimes, so all speculation I suppose.   

If it were to be anywhere I would say Wayfarer's Rest and Atranta are as good a place as any.  It's very hard to say.  Let's hope that there is a Darry heir out there somewhere and that they make a mind blowing comeback., that would be sweet!     

It is improbable that Raymun is alive but its certainly possible for Lyman. The world book mentions vaults under Castle Darry so maybe they hid there. Lots of people are hiding in the Riverlands since the war started.

Still going by some of the accounts the Mountain has personally murdered half the Riverlands. Still there are more than a couple questionable deaths by the Mountain. For one I am still trying to figure out if Ser Pate of the Blue Fork is alive. Walder Frey says he was killed by the Mountain, which allowed his widow "Gatehouse" Ami to marry Lancel to gain Darry lands. Yet Tom O'Sevens doesn't mention Pate on his death list and Pate is his cousin. After naming so many people killed by the Mountain and yet forgets his own cousin. Something smells fishy and it isn't the Tully's.

[Le Cygne]

On January 11, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

A COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT PIPER AND VANCE

Wizz, that was excellent! A really enjoyable read, and I learned a lot. The terrible twosome! I want more of their story! And I like that even Hildy got into the action.  Also loved reading about the easter eggs.

[Ser Few of the Fingers]

Is there any connection between the green and black dragons of both Vances shields'   and the green and black contenders during the DwD?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Wizz, that was excellent! A really enjoyable read, and I learned a lot. The terrible twosome! I want more of their story! And I like that even Hildy got into the action.  Also loved reading about the easter eggs.

Hey Le Cygne!  And thank you very much for your kind words, I'm glad you enjoyed it.  I too have a better picture now,  once everything is laid out in order things become a little clearer. 

And the easter eggs were cool finds, I enjoy that side, looking at his inspirations and writing techniques.  So much to find!  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1 hour ago, Octavio Malibaires said:

Is there any connection between the green and black dragons of both Vances shields'   and the green and black contenders during the DwD?

Hi Octavio Malibaires! And welcome.  I too noticed this and thought it a little odd.  However the Vance families have been around in Westeros for a lot longer than the Targs.  They were once amongst the petty kings that fought over the RL's after their Andal invasion.  So it would seem not.

But I agree it's a bit of a tease, dragons, green and black.  Even an insuation towards eligance is doubtful for the same reason, could the sigils have been changed?  I have an eye on this, but at the moment would have to say it doesn't have any significance to the DWD due to the age of the Houses Vance.  Thanks for reading OM!  

[Lost Melnibonean]

There are a ton of green and black color combinations through the books. Red and black symbolism is common too. Those combinations get very interesting when red or black is joined by green and blue. 

[Ser Few of the Fingers]

7 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi Octavio Malibaires! And welcome.  I too noticed this and thought it a little odd.  However the Vance families have been around in Westeros for a lot longer than the Targs.  They were once amongst the petty kings that fought over the RL's after their Andal invasion.  So it would seem not.

But I agree it's a bit of a tease, dragons, green and black.  Even an insuation towards eligance is doubtful for the same reason, could the sigils have been changed?  I have an eye on this, but at the moment would have to say it doesn't have any significance to the DWD due to the age of the Houses Vance.  Thanks for reading OM!  

Thank you for writing! In any case, it may point to a less literal connection or some kind of allegory. I did not intend it to mean that the Vances were somehow related to the actual plot of Rhaenyra vs Aegon II, but may be they share some kind of symbolis relating to self-destruction? In-family feuds? The extinction of a species? A bitersweet ending?

 

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

There are a ton of green and black color combinations through the books. Red and black symbolism is common too. Those combinations get very interesting when red or black is joined by green and blue. 

Sure, but this are green and black dragons, not a mere juxtaposition of those colours.