The Riverlands Web V.7

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Octavio Malibaires said:

Thank you for writing! In any case, it may point to a less literal connection or some kind of allegory. I did not intend it to mean that the Vances were somehow related to the actual plot of Rhaenyra vs Aegon II, but may be they share some kind of symbolis relating to self-destruction? In-family feuds? The extinction of a species? A bitersweet ending?

 

Sure, but this are green and black dragons, not a mere juxtaposition of those colours.

Well, we have a green and black dragon across the Narrow Sea, and the gal Is riding the black one. I'm guessing the guy named Aegon will be riding the green one. And thinking of House Toland's dragon, all things come round again. 

[Le Cygne]

Don't mind me, just taking my nookie coordinator duties seriously, I wanted to add that I found more Jane Eyre parallels, keeping an eye on our potential Sandor in the Riverlands developments:

Sansa: She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever... It is my claim, no one will ever marry me for love...

Jane Eyre (who has become an heiress): "I don't want to marry, and never shall marry.... No one would take me for love; and I will not be regarded in the light of a mere money speculation."

And Jane wanted to marry Mr. Rochester (the one with the moody black horse who gave her his cloak twice and called her a bird and wanted to be on a quiet island with only her and cried manly tears and ... ) when she said that, she was really saying, she wants to marry only him, and she despairs, because she doesn't think she can... but she does.

By the way, Harry the Heir is described the same way as St. John, who she turns down:

St. John: "fair, blue eyes, a Grecian profile"

Harry: "sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose"

I found some more, too, but those were the best. A couple quick ones to add to the list from before, he calls himself an "irreligious dog" and his face is "transformed" by love and more... oh, and she defends Mr. R. "you don't know him!" and I expect we shall see something like that from Sansa, defending Sandor.

And this is nice, too (also wanted to note, she's living under an alias and staying with cousins):

Perhaps you think I had forgotten Mr. Rochester, reader, amidst these changes of place and fortune. Not for a moment. His idea was still with me, because it was not a vapour sunshine could disperse, nor a sand-traced effigy storms could wash away; it was a name graven on a tablet, fated to last as long as the marble it inscribed. The craving to know what had become of him followed me everywhere; when I was at Morton, I re-entered my cottage every evening to think of that; and now at Moor House, I sought my bedroom each night to brood over it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

49 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Don't mind me, just taking my nookie coordinator  duties seriously, I wanted to add that I found more Jane Eyre parallels, keeping an eye on our potential Sandor in the Riverlands developments:

Sansa: She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever... It is my claim, no one will ever marry me for love...

Jane Eyre: "I don't want to marry, and never shall marry.... No one would take me for love; and I will not be regarded in the light of a mere money speculation."

And Jane wanted to marry Mr. Rochester (the one with the moody black horse who gave her his cloak twice and called her a bird and wanted to be on a quiet island with only her and ... ) when she said that, she was really saying, she wants to marry only him, and she despairs, because she doesn't think she can... but she does.

By the way, Harry the Heir is described the same way as St. John, who she turns down:

St. John: "fair, blue eyes, a Grecian profile"

Harry: "sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose"

I found some more, too, but those were the best.

Yes, Sansa does share similarities with Jane, and Sandor certainly seems licke Rochester, especially toward the end. Cersei I guess Is Mrs. Reed. But who Is Petyr? 

[Joy Hill]

On 11 janvier 2016 at 1:48 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

A COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT PIPER AND VANCE

Hey Webbers!  Finally this is my Piper and Vance essay.  I apologize for the length of it, I wanted to quote as I go to get a full picture of their story so far.  I had quite underestimated how many times these guys had appeared with a word to say or a raid to complete in the series.  I have researched in chapter/book order, therefore will post as such with some musings in between some quotes from the text. I will also quote a couple of small things regarding possible BWB connections. 

I have been thorough in an attempt to show these minor characters as well fleshed out, having a role all of their own, having been ever present in the series, and are ones to watch for sure.  I hope the book by book format I take will break up a reasonably long read [Due to quotes]……………

The first time we hear of the Houses Piper and Vance is in Catelyn VII, AGOT.  Whilst Cat is at the Eyrie, she receives a letter from RR, it is read to her.    

‘’Your brother writes that he has sent riders to the rock, demanding that lord Tywin proclaim his intent, but he has no answer.  Edmure has commanded Lord Vance and Lord Piper to guard the pass below the Golden Tooth.  He vows to you that he will yield no foot of Tully land without first watering it with Lannister blood.’’

This early association of the houses confirms they are well thought of nobles from the Riverland’s, with a reasonable force of men.  But also gives us as readers our first glance of Piper and Vance together.

The next time we hear of any P&V action is Eddard XI, when they visit Ned in King’s Landing, seeking audience with King Robert after the horrors of the RL’s and Sherrer.  They have villagers in tow and plenty to say.  There is a lot of dialogue for Karyl Vance, Marq Piper and co in this chapter, so will only quote some of the sections I feel gives us background on our subjects.

Ned:  ‘’Did they wear crimson cloaks or fly a lion banner?’’

‘’Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that,’’ Marq Piper snapped.  He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned’s taste, though a fast friend of Catelyn’s brother, Edmure Tully.

‘’Every man among them was mounted and mailed my lord,’’ Ser Karyl Vance answered ‘calmly’. ‘’They were armed with steel tipped lances and longswords, with battle axes for the butchering.’’

It’s noted early on that Karyl is melancholy and calm, while his friend Marq is brash and hot-headed.  I think it’s funny how Karyl has to butt in ’calmly’ as if to sooth the tension his friend Marq may have created.  And we seem to have a double act George can play with here, awesome.    

The villagers go on to talk of the horrific raids in the RL’s, but a little later in the conversation, Littlefinger asks where these three knights were when these raids on their local lands happened. 

Ser Karyl Vance answered. ‘’I was attending my father in the pass below the Golden Tooth, as was Ser Marq.  When the word of these outrages reached Ser Edmure Tully, he sent word that we should take a small force of men to find what survivors we could and bring them to the king.’’

Littlefinger stroked the point of his beard thoughtfully. ‘’And if they come again, Ser?

‘’If they come again we’ll use their blood to water the fields they burnt,’’ Ser Marq declared hotly.

‘’Ser Edmure has sent men to every village and holdfast within a day’s ride of the border.’’ Ser Karyl explained. ‘’The next raider will not have such an easy time of it.’’

Again this seems like Karyl smoothing the way after another outburst from Marq, ever the diplomat.   But also we get a clearer picture of Karyl and Marq’s movements, they were with their Lord fathers at the Golden Tooth, but came away as key representatives to gather the survivors from the RL’s and head to KL. 

Another point of note from this chapter is that Ned refused Marq his vengeance on the Mountain and instead sent the force led by Beric Dondarrion, including our favorite Red Priest, Thoros of Myr.  Although Marq may have been bummed at his not gaining permission to avenge the Lannister’s, it seems he may just kind of follow Beric’s lead anyway and start to scheme and raid. 

As we see when Tyrion meets up with Tywin at the Inn at the Crossroads in Tyrion VII.  Having met with his father and Kevan, Vale clans in tow, they discuss their current situation regards the war.   

‘’Ser Edmure had scattered small troops of men along his borders to stop our raiding, and your lord father and I were able to destroy most of them piecemeal before they could regroup.’’     ‘’Your brother has been covering himself in glory,’’ his father said ‘’ He smashed the lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tully’s under the walls of Riverrun.  The lords of the Trident have been put to rout.  Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen……………

This is when we get confirmation that Jaime’s forces smashed that of Lords Vance and Piper, and we later find out this includes the death of Lord Vance.  Lord Clement Piper however was able to retreat to safety.  But we hear of their sons again straight away, as Tywin complains………..

‘’Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork.’’ 

Tyrion reflects this is probably normal in the middle of war and perhaps fair play…….then………                                                           

‘’We also have a pair of Ned Stark’s afterthoughts making a nuisance of themselves by harassing my foraging parties.  Beric Dondarrion, some young lordling with delusions of valor.  He has that jape of priest with him, the one who likes to set his sword on fire.’’

After knowing that Piper & Vance wanted to avenge the RL’s for Lannister routing.  And also being in the same company/location as Beric and his 120 men when they set out from KL.  Plus the association we as Webbers put between these players, I thought this interesting.  It’s not the last time they are mentioned in the same chapter, doing the same things, raiding Lannister supplies and foraging parties etc…….

In Sansa V we are informed that Karyl is to bend the knee to Joffery or be declared a traitor.  However he and Marq were at RR in Tyrion IX.  And this chapter tells of the capture of Jaime and their loss at RR.  Ser Harys Swift, Kevan, Tyrion etc……discuss how Jaime’s siege of RR went so wrong.  When questioning a messenger about the defeat there was one name that popped up a lot, Marq Piper.  It seems Marq was instrumental in weakening their supplies and information.  And was potentially instrumental in the capture of Jaime Lannister!

They came down on the north camp first.  No one was expecting an attack.  Marq Piper had been raiding our supply trains, but he had no more than fifty men.  Ser Jaime had gone out to deal with them the night before…well, with what we thought was them.  We were told the Stark host was east of the Green Fork, marching south…’’

The Mountain replies. ‘’And your outriders?  They saw nothing?  They gave you no warning?’’     The bloodstained messenger shook his head. ‘’Our outriders had been vanishing.  Marq Piper’s work, we thought.  The ones who did come back had seen nothing.’’

So all the while RR was under siege, Marq had been on the periphery of everything, killing Lannister outriders and probably no less severe on the Lannister supply trains.  But notably it seems it was Marq and his men’s presence that drew Jaime out from relative safety, thinking there were only perhaps 50 men to deal with.  This of course played into Robb’s hands perfectly, and they were able to catch Jaime and hold him hostage, while at the same time spring a surprise attack on the enemy. This chapter is descriptive in its tale from the messenger, and Marq’s accomplishments could perhaps be overlooked amongst the RR mayhem.  But they are vitally important in helping take back RR.

There are also reports of someone else’s presence, and another Beric mention.

 ‘’But the Tyroshi sellsword who led his freeriders struck his banners and went over to the foe.’’

Later when Tywin is surveying the situation. ‘’Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties.’’

So, the Stark host, Piper and Vance, Greenbeard and Beric and Thoros not far away.  All in the same place, fighting for same side and working towards very similar goals. [Smashing Lannisters]  It seems another perfect time for any talk of tactics, guerilla style.  Protecting the smallfolk and the RL’s from all angles.  Greenbeard certainly ended up in the BWB from this vantage point in the story.  Also this is another chapter where P&V and Beric & Thoros are mentioned closely together as pains in Tywin’s behind, raiding and foraging. 

Our next glimpse at the terrible twosome is in Catelyn XI after they are all inside RR, Robb calls a war council meeting in the great hall.  Karyl and Marq are present. 

‘’Word of the victory at Riverrun had spread to the fugitive lords of the Trident, drawing them back.  Karyl Vance came in, a lord now, his father dead beneath the Golden Tooth.  Ser Marq Piper was with him, and they brought a Darry, Ser Raymun’s son, a lad no older than Bran.’’

Many of the Lords bannermen wanted to meet Lord Tywin and end Lannister power for all time.  Young, hot-tempered Marq Piper urged a strike west at Casterly Rock instead.  Still others counseled patience.

Marq also claims. ‘’Whatever you may decide for yourselves, I shall never call a Lannister my king.’’

So as soon as they could safely travel, they were back at RR and straight onto Robb’s war council.  Lord Karyl was quiet throughout the talks, perhaps to be expected, but Marq was on form again, shouting the odds.  He is a lively one. 

IN CONCLUSION

We have been introduced to these families early in the piece, and they have had a continued presence throughout various chapters. [Research headache]  And this spans from as early as the guarding of the Golden Tooth.  Having heard their plight at KL, Ned would not allow the ‘vengeance’ they seek, so they raided and harassed Lannister’s anyway.

They did this in much the same way as Beric & Thoros, and was mentioned as such.  And this often within a few pages of one another.  Having been keen to basically do what Beric and co are doing, I find it interesting they are on the same turf[ish] pulling off the same tricks, and all towards the same ends.  Surely they have had some sort of communication?  Or maybe they are just happening upon different Lannister parties while never bumping into each other?  I don’t know, but it seems… odd.

Anyway, it sets the scene for us to watch out for these families.  And Marq in particular with his RR siege heroics, has helped Robb immensely 

ACOK

Not a great deal happens with regards Karyl and Marq in ACOK, though they were mentioned a couple of times.  In Catelyn I Edmure convinces Robb that he should let the River lords go home and protect/repair their own lands. 

‘’Ser Marq Piper and Lord Karyl Vance had been the first to go.’’ 

And also in Catelyn VI Lord Karyl Vance held a number of the fords successfully in the Battle of the Fords.  This after Cat had seen Piper banners in a camp north of the Tumblestones, no doubt with Vance’s camp.  This comes to fruition when we later find out…..

‘’He also told of fighting further upstream, where Lord Karyl Vance held the fords.  Those thrusts too were turned aside, at grievous cost to our foes.’’

If nothing else these fleeting mentions serve to remind us of their continued presence in the RL’s.

ASOS

In Cat IV we read about Hoster’s funeral, and apart from Lame Lothar Frey [who Robb had there for political reasons] we are in the presence of loyal RL’s bannermen.  Including our double act.

‘’Seven were chosen to push the funeral boat to the water, in honor of the seven faces of god.  Robb was one, Lord Hoster’s liege lord.  With him were the Lords Bracken, Blackwood, Vance, and Mallister, Ser Marq Piper….and Lame Lothar Frey, who had come down from the Twins, forty soldiers rode in his escort commanded by Walder Rivers.’’

It was noted after the funeral that the River Lords were mingling and chatting, and of course Edmure and the Blackfish are present.  This seems like a great chance for these key Lords to discuss anything they know.  Lords Bracken, Blackwood, Vance and Piper are certainly potential ‘players of the political game’ later in AFFC.  There are, however, plenty of Frey’s about and the rest of this chapter is full of bad Stark news, [Winterfell had burned, Bran, Rickon etc..] nevertheless these River lords had ample opportunity to talk tactics so to speak, or what they know of Beric and the BWB?  Etc………

Next up is the RW…………… We don’t see Karyl for the rest of the book, which surprises me, Marq seems so friendly with Edmure you would think Karyl was too?  Obviously not.  Whatever, if he went to the RW, then he was nowhere to be seen, and he escaped.  But perhaps more likely, he simply didn’t go. 

In Cat V we have the journey to the Red Wedding.  Ser Marq accompanied Edmure to the Twins and had some fun at his expense on the way…..

‘’With so many different mothers, a few of the maids are bound to turn up comely,’’ said Ser Marq Piper, ‘’but why should the old wretch give you a pretty one?’’     Ha! 

While Karyl Vance wasn’t there, some of the secondary Vance house were, all good friends of Edmure’s,

‘The next day he avoided her [Cat] entirely on the march, preferring the company of Marq Piper, Lymond Goodbrook, Patrek Mallister, and the young Vance’s.

The young Vances mentioned are Ser Ronald ‘the bad’, Ser Ellery, Ser Hugo and Kirth Vance from Atranta.  They are very minor characters, one pops up again, but more on these guys in a future post.

In Cat VI, once we are at the wedding, Marq is mentioned a couple of times.  He was seen in the hall….’’Ser Marq Piper and Ser Danwell Frey played a drinking game’’ and after a bit of banter and some Tully fish jokes, Marq got involved in the bedding ceremony. ‘’She’s crying too, Catelyn realized as she watched Ser Marq Piper pull off one of the bride’s shoes.’’

 This is last time we see Marq and he is still a captive at the Twins, although soon to be released for TWOW. [Thanks to his father Clement, more in AFFC]  Of the four young Vance’s, there are three whose whereabouts are unknown, they may be at Atranta, or it is possible they are also held at the twins.  Those being Ronald, Ellery and Kirth Vance.  Although we do know they are unharmed.

With an eye on BWB involvement, we mustn’t forget what Beric said in Arya VIII.  ‘’Sharna will know something, the Vance maester will know more.’’

The raiding and killing of Lannisters alongside Beric and co is one thing.  Having one of their maesters as a confirmed BWB spy is another.  These guys are in contact, or so I think anyway.

IN CONCLUSION

At this point, as we know, it doesn’t look good for any of the Riverlanders, or the northerners for that matter, let alone the Stark’s………….  The Vance and Piper alliance will now have to come into its own, and work out what the hell they are going to do about this.  Of the three main players, Lord Clement Piper, his son Marq and Lord Karyl Vance, only one is imprisoned at the Twins, Marq.  However, they had nieces, nephews, friends, knights etc….. all present and all dear to their hearts.  And let’s not forget Norbert Vance.  Not only because his name is amazing, but he has sons potentially there too.  Any plans for retribution start here!!

I’m pretty sure any BWB connection would help such plans.  So it’s nice to know the Vance maester is on board, as I’m sure are the Lords Piper & Vance themselves.  This on top of any possible communication previously between P&V and Beric & co. I think we got something to work with?  And I think we see this happen in AFFC.

AFFC

As Jaime starts his venture towards RR from KL, we are informed he has a couple of hostages in tow.  Lew Piper, who is Marq’s younger brother is the first mentioned.  [Jaime III]

A Paege, a Piper, and a Peckledon would share the honour of squiring for the Lord Commander. ‘’Keep friends at your back and foes where you can see them’’

Little Lew Piper came galloping up with a helm full of blackberries…..

Next we hear of a Vance of Atranta in Jaime’s entourage while at Darry, Edmure’s friend Hugo………. [Jaime IV]

Ser Dermot rode beside him with the royal stag and line, and Ser Hugo Vance with the white standard of the Kingsgaurd.

Hugo Vance had closed his eyes.  Brooding on the mysteries of life, thought Jaime.  That or napping between courses.

So we have confirmation that houses Vance and Piper have young members of their family in Jaime’s entourage.  I see no evidence that they could be spying due to their awkward position, but surely the families concerned would like them back, if politics allows it.  And in the final two chapters we get to see P&V, we finally get these scheming houses start to work their magic.  Onto RR………

In Jaime VI, after the Blackfish had refused Jaime’s terms at RR, he commands a war council be assembled….

They gathered quickly.  Lord Piper [Clement] and both Lords Vance [Karyl & Norbert] came to speak for the repentant lords of the Trident, whose loyalties would shortly be put to the test.

 ‘’Hang Edmure Tully for a start,’’ urged Lord Emmon Frey.

‘’Brynden Blackfish is not moved so easily.’’ Karyl Vance, the Lord of Wayfarer’s Rest, had a melancholy look.  A wine stain birthmark covered half his neck and one side of his face. ‘’His own brother could not move him to a marriage bed.’’    

This is another example of Karyl showing a wise calmness during heated debate.  Of course he is [secretly] on the BF’s side, but to deflect such harsh treatment with a deft calm takes a lot of skill and wit.  I think we have been shown he has such abilities before, but this certainly shows a wise head.

This next bit of text is I think important, and is the start of any potential P&V scheming IMHO.  The Riverlander’s seem to have a minor dispute that leads to Clement exploding at Edwyn Frey about his son Marq and his imprisonment at the Twins.      

 ‘’I have known Brynden Tully since we were squires together, in service to Lord Darry,’’ said Norbert Vance, the blind Lord of Atranta. ‘’If it please my lords, let me go and speak with him and try to make him understand the hopelessness of his position.’’

‘’He understands that well enough,’’ said Lord Piper. [Clement] ‘’The man’s not bloody stupid, Norbert.  He has eyes… and too much sense to yield to such as these.’’ He made a rude gesture in the direction of Edwyn Frey and Walder Rivers.

Edwyn bristled. ‘’If my lord of Piper means to imply……’’

‘’I don’t imply, Frey.  I say what I mean straight out, like an honest man.  But what would you know of the ways of honest men?  You’re a treacherous lying weasel, like all your kin.  I’d sooner drink a pint of piss than take the word of any Frey.’’  He leaned across the table. ‘’Where is Marq, answer me that?  What have you done with my son?  He was a guest at your bloody wedding………..Five knights and twenty men-at-arms went with Marq to the Twins,’’ said Piper. ‘’Are they your guests as well Frey?’’

Edwyn replies. ‘’Some of the knights, perhaps. The others were served no more than they deserved. You’d do well to guard your traitors tongue, Piper, unless you want your heir returned in pieces.’’

Just as Lord Clement and Edwyn looked as though they were going to come to blows, Jaime steps in and eventually calms things down.  Lord Clement, having I think made his point, then stormed out of the tent. And he does have a point, they have bent the knee and would resent the Frey’s holding their family. [Even if I think they are scheming]

This whole argument and it being in front of Jaime was I think deliberate.  It was Norbert Vance and Clement Piper who had a minor disagreement in tactics, leading to Clement going mad at Edwyn about the release of the prisoners from the Twins, his son in particular, Marq.  But most importantly all this happened in front of Jaime, with some calming words about Clement’s grief from Lord Karyl afterwards.  Anyway, whether deliberate or not, it seems to have had a desirable result as Jaime later declares……………

‘’Send word to Lord Walder.  The crown requires all his prisoners.’’ Jaime waved his golden hand.

Finally, and to conclude, in Jaime VII, after having conformation of the captive’s release, and that they are definitely heading for KL with the opportunity for a ransom, we get Lord Karyl’s advice for Jaime…

The Lords of the Trident came to Jaime asking his leave to return to their own lands.  He granted it.  Lord Piper also wanted to know about his son Marq. ‘’All the captives will be ransomed,’’ Jaime promised.  As the Riverlords took their leave, Lord Karyl Vance lingered to say, ‘’Lord Jaime, you must go to Raventree.  So long as it is Jonos at his gates Tytos will never yield, but I know he will bend his knee for you.’’  Jaime thanked him for his counsel.

As we know, Jaime acted on this advice and went to Raventree with a far smaller retinue than he had with him at RR.  This seemed to have gone rather well, stopping the siege, gaining two more squires/hostages etc….  But he is then confronted with Brienne and promises of Sansa’s whereabouts, in the presence of the Hound no less!  He must go immediately!  And alone!

But hold on!  How did Brienne find him so easily?  She just rocked up as if she knew he’d be there.  This seems odd.  Hmmm.  But what if the BWB could somehow know where he was going to be?  Well I think that’s exactly what happened.  

We have early insinuations that Beric & co are basically doing the exact same thing as P&V, from KL onwards, all in same area, and all to same ends.  Then we have the confirmation that the Vance maester is in on the act, and helping the BWB.  Add the whores, Tom ‘o’ Sevens etc……… So communication is not a problem.

Being on Jaime’s war council, I think P&V had two main things to achieve.  Firstly the release of the prisoners, which was successful.  And secondly, to try and isolate Jaime away from RR and his larger retinue.  So basically I feel Karyl was well aware that the BWB were in position to strike, if only he could get Jaime to travel to Raventree, Ha!  And all this happens just as people are leaving RR, thinking everything was sorted and coming to end.  This seems perfect.

This notion of a coherence between RL nobles and the BWB is strengthened when we meet another whore at the siege of Raventree, Hildy, perhaps another spy?  Then Lord Blackwood is rather insistent on wanting to know Jaime’s exact destination. ‘’Kings Landing or Riverrun?’’   [Paraphrasing]  So this looks to me as if Jaime was tricked into weakening his position away from RR, ready for capture by a BWB in full knowledge of his whereabouts, thanks in no small part to Lord Karyl Vance and his maester of course. [Perhaps Bracken & Blackwood as well]  TWOW is gonna be awesome!  Can’t wait for these RL arcs! 

Again I apologize for the length of this essay, but having spoken about these guys a lot I wanted to quote and have their full story/movements in one place.  Hopefully this fleshed out their characters a bit as well.  I have another fun post about GRRM and his Jack Vance influence to come.  Thank you for reading.    

PS:  The font has changed from my word document and I can't seem to change it.     

 

Thank you, this was fascinating! 

I wonder if Lewis Piper is part of the Riverlands web. He was present in that tent with Tom and Edmure when Jaime made his trebuchet speech.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1 hour ago, Joy Hill said:

Thank you, this was fascinating! 

I wonder if Lewis Piper is part of the Riverlands web. He was present in that tent with Tom and Edmure when Jaime made his trebuchet speech.

Hey Joy Hill!  And thank you, I'm, glad you liked it. 

Good question about Little Lew, he is a likeable minor character for sure, and privy too a lot of information on Jaime as well.  The info he heard at the meeting you mentioned is one thing. [More in a bit]  But also he has struck up a good relationship with Jaime as well. 

He names his horses 'Honor and Glory' which Jaime finds amusing so keeps the names even though he wouldn't normally want to get too attached.  He brings blackberries and shares them with Jaime and Ilyn.  He feels comfortable enough to ask where Jaime got his bruises from. [We know they are from training with Ser Ilyn, but he claims they are love bites from lusty wenches]  If Lew could work this out he would confirm Jaime's current weakness as a fighter.  It seems he may be probing for info, or perhaps he's just being the nice young lad he seems to be. 

And of course he heard the commotion in the scene you mentioned, all information I'm sure he is soaking up and if he could at some point help, I'm sure he would.  They are at RR a while with familiar nobles close and perhaps more importantly family, could he have interacted with them at some point?  I think it's possible but maybe not necessary, the scene you mention has Tom 'o' Sevens there and he is in a far better position to relay any information to the nobles or BWB.  Also the whores are all over the camp spying for the BWB as well, and in that scene we get the Queen 'o' Whores with Ryman Frey.  She is wearing Robb's crown as well. 

This is important for BWB communication evidence as it transpires that after being sent home by Jaime in that very scene, LSH and her BWB apprehend Ryman's party and they are all hanged.  We then find out that LSH has Robb's crown and is stroking it etc........  The person in the best position to make this happen is Tom, relaying the info to the necessary people in their communication line.  I think Lew may find it hard to give such help due to his position, but you never know maybe he has helped somewhere. 

After being informed of potential RL noble involvement in the scheming [Still Wolfish] Jaime does actually think in the text it would be a shame to execute Lew as he has grown to like him.  This backs the notion Lew has to be super careful.  However as I mention in my essay, I think his family and BWB have worked the situation so that Lew doesn't have to get his hands dirty so to speak, but you have made me think on just how much Lew knows and has seen.   

I like your thinking Joy Hill, and thank you!!     Little Lew Piper certainly has a lot of info on Jaime plenty of people would give their right............ Ok I won't go there! 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 1:45 PM, Le Cygne said:

Don't mind me, just taking my nookie coordinator duties seriously, I wanted to add that I found more Jane Eyre parallels, keeping an eye on our potential Sandor in the Riverlands developments:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~snip~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This confirms what I love about this series, you've been all over the Jane Eyre parallels since I started posting with you, yet still there are more to find.  I too continue to find new things on another look, and this is a familiar trend, it's awesome!  Very enjoyable!    

I like your point about staying with cousins, that's the sort of subtle detail he throws in rather than spell it out in the text, love it! 

And I'd like to point out that the RL's Web wouldn't be the same without the occasional nookie coordinator update!!   

[LongRider]

I've been looking to see if the 'Queen of Whores' is perhaps described somewhere else with the BWB and haven't found her.  Drat!  It was noted that when Bri was taken prisoner by the BWB and taken to LS, that there were women and children in the cave, but no specific definitions.  And no other women with the BWB before we meet her match her description either.     

[Le Cygne]

I was looking too and noticed something, Cersei was called the Kingslayer's whore in the riot scene, and then later Brienne was called the Kingslayer's whore with the BWB. He sees to every detail, doesn't he? He goes from book to book to book and still remembers to add these little things here and there.

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

This confirms what I love about this series, you've been all over the Jane Eyre parallels since I started posting with you, yet still there are more to find.  I too continue to find new things on another look, and this is a familiar trend, it's awesome!  Very enjoyable!    

I like your point about staying with cousins, that's the sort of subtle detail he throws in rather than spell it out in the text, love it! 

And I'd like to point out that the RL's Web wouldn't be the same without the occasional nookie coordinator update!!   

He packs a lot of details in the books! I just gravitate to the nookie related ones.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I was looking too and noticed something, Cersei was called the Kingslayer's whore in the riot scene, and then later Brienne was called the Kingslayer's whore with the BWB. He sees to every detail, doesn't he? He goes from book to book to book and still remembers to add these little things here and there.

Without looking up the full quote, when Ryman and his Queen 'o' Whores show up in the scene with Edmure, Jaime calls her 'my lady' and she claims she is the queen.  From the Wiki.........................

''Lady? I’m no lady. I’m the queen.''

Jaime tells her that his sister will be very surprised to hear that. She then announces that Lord Ryman himself crowned her and that she is the queen o’ whores. Jaime thinks to himself,

''No, my sweet sister holds that title too.''

[Wizz-The-Smith]

26 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I've been looking to see if the 'Queen of Whores' is perhaps described somewhere else with the BWB and haven't found her.  Drat!  It was noted that when Bri was taken prisoner by the BWB and taken to LS, that there were women and children in the cave, but no specific definitions.  And no other women with the BWB before we meet her match her description either.     

True, but we know the whores are BWB spies, so all of them are potentially important.  The queen 'o' was lucky/unlucky enough to be in Ryman's presence at that particular time.  He obviously had Robb's crown, and crowned her the 'Queen 'o' Whores'.  I don't think she's important, just a cool footnote within the text to confirm the whores involvement after the visit to the Peach at Stoney Sept.     

   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

26 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

He packs a lot of details in the books! I just gravitate to the romantic/sexy ones.

He certainly does!

And you certainly do gravitate towards the romantic/sexy ones, I enjoy it a lot!  You have some great thoughts.  They have helped my [potential] understanding of this series immensely! 

[LongRider]

7 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

True, but we know the whores are BWB spies, so all of them are potentially important.  The queen 'o' was lucky/unlucky enough to be in Ryman's presence at that particular time.  He obviously had Robb's crown, and crowned her the 'Queen 'o' Whores'.  I don't think she's important, just a cool footnote within the text to confirm the whores involvement after the visit to the Peach at Stoney Sept.     

   

Yes you have the right of it, still it would have been fun to find her.  She must have given the crown to BWB/LS after seeing Ser Ryman swing.  Her 15 minutes of fame. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

10 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Yes you have the right of it, still it would have been fun to find her.  She must have given the crown to BWB/LS after seeing Ser Ryman swing.  Her 15 minutes of fame. 

Haha!  Exactly, a sweet victory for the involvement of the whores.  Confirmation they are truly on the BWB's side. 

[Le Cygne]

I thought this was interesting from a Theon chapter, about the washerwomen references (yes, I was wondering about that scene with Sansa defending Sandor when she heard the women discussing the relative merits of Sandor's and Kettleblack's "jousting" skills by the well, faster may not be better in all things, as she will come to know):

Quote

Washerwomen. That was the polite way of saying camp follower, which was the polite way of saying whore. Where they came from Theon could not say. They just seemed to appear, like maggots on a corpse or ravens after a battle. Every army drew them. Some were hardened whores who could fuck twenty men in a night and drink them all blind. Others looked as innocent as maids, but that was just a trick of their trade. Some were camp brides, bound to the soldiers they followed with words whispered to one god or another but doomed to be forgotten once the war was done. They would warm a man's bed by night, patch the holes in his boots at morning, cook his supper come dusk, and loot his corpse after the battle. Some even did a bit of washing. With them, oft as not, came bastard children, wretched, filthy creatures born in one camp or the other.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

19 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I was looking too and noticed something, Cersei was called the Kingslayer's whore in the riot scene, and then later Brienne was called the Kingslayer's whore with the BWB. He sees to every detail, doesn't he? He goes from book to book to book and still remembers to add these little things here and there.

I love this! But Brienne was constantly shouting Jaime! Or Jaime said this, or jaime did..""..so the way Martin uses these words, willingly or not, makes total sense here. Anyway, that's what I like about this situation. it comes naturally. Come on, the guys may come to that conclusion because she is literally shouting that there is Something for Jaime!!!

It is very reasonable to think that he wrote it on purpose. and it may be a nod to the readers that, for that very reason, we know that she is actually the contrary of a whore, and especially regarding her relationship with Jaime, which is totally platonic and based on real feelings, whathever they are.

[Meera of Tarth]

18 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

 

''No, my sweet sister holds that title too.''

In one word? that was Epic. Thank you for making me remember this sentence

[Le Cygne]

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I love this! But Brienne was constantly shouting Jaime! Or Jaime said this, or jaime did..""..so the way Martin uses these words, willingly or not, makes total sense here. Anyway, that's what I like about this situation. it comes naturally. Come on, the guys may come to that conclusion because she is literally shouting that there is Something for Jaime!!!

It is very reasonable to think that he wrote it on purpose. and it may be a nod to the readers that, for that very reason, we know that she is actually the contrary of a whore, and especially regarding her relationship with Jaime, which is totally platonic and based on real feelings, whathever they are.

Yeah, I think he meant it in a good way. That was the BWB's twisted way of saying Brienne cares about Jaime, and she made it rather obvious. And also a nod that Jaime's focus has changed, "people are talking" about him and Brienne now.

[Tijgy]

I did not read all of your threads but was ever the whereabouts of the family of Lady Shella Whent discussed? Because already they already disappeared from ACOK. The last thing we heard of them LF mentioning the fact Shella died but that is everything we know?

[Le Cygne]

I remember that had been mentioned and found this: