top generals in ASOIAF

[Bobby b's bobby]

Did I not say if they circumstances were reversed? Ie. Jon as true born and Robb as bastard.

But then they'd be completely different people making the point moot.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Did I not say if they circumstances were reversed? Ie. Jon as true born and Robb as bastard.

 

Why would Jon being trueborn make him more likely to listen to Ned's advice to get to know your soldiers and never ask them to do something that you won't do right beside them? Jon had the same lessons that Robb did where you don't alienate your bannermen and ask them to die for a stranger, yet he went ahead and purposefully stayed away from getting to know the men under his command. Are you trying to say that Jon Stark wouldn't have done that, and that Robb Snow would have?

 

Because I see a conscious effort from Robb to follow Ned's leadership advice, and a conscious effort from Jon not to follow Ned's leadership advice, with no reason to believe that they'd have ever switch that. Jon would still give the cold shoulder to the Manderlys, Glovers, and Umbers, and Robb would still willingly listen to Bowen, Aliser, and Denys' concerns and advice.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I don't think the Reyne/Tarbeck shows us anything too new about Tywin. My respect for him as a general went up slightly but tbh it shows him just as he was in the books. Able, cunning, vicious, vindictive, ruthless and repugnant.

 

I agree, but I'd throw courageous in there as well. People don't like to think of Tywin as brave because he's such a prick by the time we see him. And he was a cold-hearted bastard even as a young man. But the way he stepped up to save his house from his father's weakness, even if it meant marching to war with just a few thousand men, took serious balls. He also led the charge against Roger Reyne's forces and was right in the thick of the fighting.

 

Now drowning hundreds of women and children obviously isn't gallant, but some people call Tywin a coward and this campaign proves that wrong I think

[watcher of the night]

 

I agree, but I'd throw courageous in there as well. People don't like to think of Tywin as brave because he's such a prick by the time we see him. And he was a cold-hearted bastard even as a young man. But the way he stepped up to save his house from his father's weakness, even if it meant marching to war with just a few thousand men, took serious balls. He also led the charge against Roger Reyne's forces and was right in the thick of the fighting.

 

Now drowning hundreds of women and children obviously isn't gallant, but some people call Tywin a coward and this campaign proves that wrong I think

 

Courageous? He never put himself in danger's way in his whole life. Tell me which was his greatest victory and I tell you what kind of commander he is.

[Frey Pie]

I agree, but I'd throw courageous in there as well. People don't like to think of Tywin as brave because he's such a prick by the time we see him. And he was a cold-hearted bastard even as a young man. But the way he stepped up to save his house from his father's weakness, even if it meant marching to war with just a few thousand men, took serious balls. He also led the charge against Roger Reyne's forces and was right in the thick of the fighting.
 
Now drowning hundreds of women and children obviously isn't gallant, but some people call Tywin a coward and this campaign proves that wrong I think

I cant say I disagree but I'd put in a disclaimer. I think Tywin is courageous in the same sense as perhaps Robert Baratheon was. Tywins pride would never let him back down from a fight and obviously as a younger man he led from the front, similar to Robert. I don't think either though had much personal courage. Roberts cowardice is well publicised but consider Tywin-
He's afraid of being laughed at
He's blind to his childrens faults
He's blind to or won't admit to his children's incest

Even the way some of his atrocities have been carried out seem to me to be...I don't know, maybe cowering. The main examples here would be how he treated his mother in law and the Tysha incident. Both show...over compensation shall we say?

But I 100% agree that he isn't a coward, in the same way Robert Baratheon wasn't. And many of the characteristics I find repugnant in Tywin help him be a good general

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Courageous? He never put himself in danger's way in his whole life. Tell me which was his greatest victory and I tell you what kind of commander he is.

 
How was he not in danger in the Nine Penny Wars? Or in the War of the Five Kings?
 
Even against the Reynes and Tarbecks he was going up against the "Red Lion of Castamere, the richest and most powerful Lannister bannerman, and a formidable soldier/warrior in his own right..." without the backing of either his Lord or the King of Westeros. Things could have backfired greatly
 

I don't know, maybe cowering. The main examples here would be how he treated his mother in law

What did he do to Marla Prester?

[Frey Pie]

 
How was he not in danger in the Nine Penny Wars? Or in the War of the Five Kings?
 
Even against the Reynes and Tarbecks he was going up against the "Red Lion of Castamere, the richest and most powerful Lannister bannerman, and a formidable soldier/warrior in his own right..." without the backing of either his Lord or the King of Westeros. Things could have backfired greatly
 
What did he do to Marla Prester?

I do believe you know what I meant

His step mother

[Dofs]

I do believe you know what I meant

His step mother

Let's not call her what she wasn't just to make a stronger point. She was not Tywin's step mother, she was his father's concubine. 

[Frey Pie]

Let's not call her what she wasn't just to make a stronger point. She was not Tywin's step mother, she was his father's concubine. 

And yet her detractors will say she ruled Casterly Rock when in fact she was just Tytos' mistress. Potatoe potatoe. Whatever

[Ramsay Gimp]

 

Courageous? He never put himself in danger's way in his whole life. Tell me which was his greatest victory and I tell you what kind of commander he is.

 

Sigh..... :rolleyes:

 

And yet her detractors will say she ruled Casterly Rock when in fact she was just Tytos' mistress. Potatoe potatoe. Whatever

 

A legitimate stepmother is a very different thing than a lowborn mistress in Westeros...

[Frey Pie]

 
Sigh..... :rolleyes:
 
 
A legitimate stepmother is a very different thing than a lowborn mistress in Westeros...

Would Tytos have made her Tywin's stepmother if he could have?

[watcher of the night]

 
How was he not in danger in the Nine Penny Wars? Or in the War of the Five Kings?
 
Even against the Reynes and Tarbecks he was going up against the "Red Lion of Castamere, the richest and most powerful Lannister bannerman, and a formidable soldier/warrior in his own right..." without the backing of either his Lord or the King of Westeros. Things could have backfired greatly
 

 

 

Well, I forgot about the war of the ninepenny kings, but he was not a commander in that war.

 

On the other hand, I do not see what kind of danger he took in the war of five kings. Could you give examples?

 

Last but not least, that Lord Reynes is described as a "formidable warrior" does not mean that Tywin took any risk or danger when confronting him. Basicaly, he took them unaware, betreaying the peace of his own father and fougth them with supperior forces each time. Even this way he won becuase of the stupid decisions made by Lord Tarbeck and Lord Reynes and due to a lucky trebuchet shot.

 

 

 

Sigh..... :rolleyes:

 

 

 

The battle of "Sigh"? Where was it? Or you cannot name any? Seriously I am very interested, which was his greatest victory?

[Dofs]

And yet her detractors will say she ruled Casterly Rock when in fact she was just Tytos' mistress. Potatoe potatoe. Whatever

Hence it was one of the reasons why people laughed, demeaned and disrespected Tytos - that a lowborn mistress ruled in Casterly Rock. To call her a stepmother because of that is vastly inappropriate given the social norms in Westeros.

[Dofs]

Last but not least, that Lord Reynes is described as a "formidable warrior" does not mean that Tywin took any risk or danger when confronting him. Basicaly, he took them unaware, betreaying the peace of his own father and fougth them with supperior forces each time. Even this way he won becuase of the stupid decisions made by Lord Tarbeck and Lord Reynes and due to a lucky trebuchet shot.

What piece he betrayed? He summoned them to Casterly Rock to deal with all the gold they stole, all the lands they took from other lords and other crimes like murdering Tywin's own grandfather. As bannermen of House Lannister, they were obliged to obey and try to deal with Tywin. Instead they renounced their fealty to Casterly Rock, basically proclaiming a full out war to House Lannister. If anything, it was them who broke the piece which in turns shows that they were pretty much aware of the coming war. That they were not prepared for it was not Tywin's problem.

[Chaircat Meow]

What piece he betrayed? He summoned them to Casterly Rock to deal with all the gold they stole, all the lands they took from other lords and other crimes like murdering Tywin's own grandfather. As bannermen of House Lannister, they were obliged to obey and try to deal with Tywin. Instead they renounced their fealty to Casterly Rock, basically proclaiming a full out war to House Lannister. If anything, it was them who broke the piece which in turns shows that they were pretty much aware of the coming war. That they were not prepared for it was not Tywin's problem.

Tytos made peace with the Reynes and Tarbecks, in yet another show of weakness. Tywin could have gone along with it, and admitted defeat, or he could have done what he did. He didn't show up to the pledges of friendship either.

[Dofs]

Tytos made peace with the Reynes and Tarbecks, in yet another show of weakness. Tywin could have gone along with it, and admitted defeat, or he could have done what he did. He didn't show up to the pledges of friendship either.

No he didn't, but it were Reynes and Tarbecks who declared war on House Lannister, not Tywin on them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Would Tytos have made her Tywin's stepmother if he could have?

 
He could have and he didn't, so no, she was not Tywin's stepmother.
 

Well, I forgot about the war of the ninepenny kings, but he was not a commander in that war.

So? You said nothing about being a commander. You said he never put himself in danger, well clearly he did. He went to was as a Knight while others like his father and the King stayed at home.
 

On the other hand, I do not see what kind of danger he took in the war of five kings. Could you give examples?

Are you really this dense?

 

You don't understand that battle and war involve danger? His uncle, Jason, died in the same war. I guess you don't consider he was in dangers way either?

Last but not least, that Lord Reynes is described as a "formidable warrior" does not mean that Tywin took any risk or danger when confronting him. Basicaly, he took them unaware, betreaying the peace of his own father and fougth them with supperior forces each time. Even this way he won becuase of the stupid decisions made by Lord Tarbeck and Lord Reynes and due to a lucky trebuchet shot.

 

Of course there is risk and danger in battle and war. Things could have backfired, the Reynes and Tarbecks could have joined together and gotten other allies,  that they didn't was due to the speed and organization of Tywins command but obviously there was danger involved.

 

"In war, you win or lose, live or die - and the difference is just an eyelash."

[Lee-Sensei]

Ned has a decent record. Two major wars and he was a commander in both. There is little to find fault with his record.

 

His victories might have been as glamorous as his sons or best friends but then he never got caught with his pants down like Robert did at the Stoney Sept or betrayed by his own men like Robb. Generals are not supposed to be exciting and flashy but organized and prepared. For some reason though these qualities are rarely appreciated on this forum.

Many of the greatest generals in history won against terrible odds. Alexander the Great, Hannibal Barca, Julius Caesar, Frederick II and Napoleon Bonaparte have all done it. It's true that great generals don't need to be flashy or agressive, but we really don't know much about Neds military record.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 

I agree, but I'd throw courageous in there as well. People don't like to think of Tywin as brave because he's such a prick by the time we see him. And he was a cold-hearted bastard even as a young man. But the way he stepped up to save his house from his father's weakness, even if it meant marching to war with just a few thousand men, took serious balls. He also led the charge against Roger Reyne's forces and was right in the thick of the fighting.

 

Now drowning hundreds of women and children obviously isn't gallant, but some people call Tywin a coward and this campaign proves that wrong I think

 

Tywin badly outnumbered both the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Tywin had 3500 men against Lord Tarbeck and only his household knights (so less than 500 men), and he had between 6000-10,000 men vs the Reynes 2,000 men.

 

And Tywin didn't lead the charge against the Reynes. Roger Reyne foolishly charged Tywin's camp when he arrived and saw that the Tarbeck Hall, who he'd come to aid, had been set on fire, hoping that his surprise attack would overcome the 3-5:1 odds.

What piece he betrayed? He summoned them to Casterly Rock to deal with all the gold they stole, all the lands they took from other lords and other crimes like murdering Tywin's own grandfather. As bannermen of House Lannister, they were obliged to obey and try to deal with Tywin. Instead they renounced their fealty to Casterly Rock, basically proclaiming a full out war to House Lannister. If anything, it was them who broke the piece which in turns shows that they were pretty much aware of the coming war. That they were not prepared for it was not Tywin's problem.

 

No, that all happened a year before the "rebellion". Tywin threw Lord Tarbeck into a dungeon when he tried to see Tytos, and then Lady Tarbeck kidnapped 3 Lannisters before Tytos stepped in and stopped all the madness. The Lannisters, Reynes, and Tarbecks all renewed their vows of friendships at this moment.

 

Then a year later Tywin out of nowhere declared the Reynes and Tarbecks to be criminals knowing that his proclamation would cause them to revolt as they weren't actually criminals as everything had been wiped clean by Tytos the year before. Tywin broke the peace to start a war of aggression simply because he didn't like them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywin badly outnumbered both the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Tywin had 3500 men against Lord Tarbeck and only his household knights (so less than 500 men), and he had between 6000-10,000 men vs the Reynes 2,000 men.
 
And Tywin didn't lead the charge against the Reynes. Roger Reyne foolishly charged Tywin's camp when he arrived and saw that the Tarbeck Hall, who he'd come to aid, had been set on fire, hoping that his surprise attack would overcome the 3-5:1 odds.

Theoretically the Reynes and Tarbecks outnumbered Tywins original 3,500. Had his initial attacks not gone to plan or  been as quick then he would have been outnumbered by their combined might.

 

It looks a far easier victory because of the speed and organization of the attack.

 

Then a year later Tywin out of nowhere declared the Reynes and Tarbecks to be criminals knowing that his proclamation would cause them to revolt as they weren't actually criminals as everything had been wiped clean by Tytos the year before. Tywin broke the peace to start a war of aggression simply because he didn't like them.

 

Well yeah, they slaughtered his grandfather and a hundred other Casterly Rock knights as well as bad mouthing the Lannisters. He never forgave them, which is not an uncommon sentiment in Westeros concerning murdered relatives.