R+L=J v.156

[corbon]

The bolded is more or less my point. When Ned leaves Starfall, I think he knows that Starfall believes that Wylla is the mother. I have suggested that this belief is one fostered by Wylla and Ned -- that they met at ToJ and Ned knew from talking to Wylla that Starfall could be led to believe that Wylla is the mother -- and they agreed between them to pass Wylla off as the mother in Starfall (and more important, in KL where I think Ned wanted to keep Robert from asking any questions so he needed a name that would hold up). But even if that it not the case and there was no "cover story" agreed to between Wylla and Ned, as your bolded statement suggests, by the time that Ned leaves Starfall, he likely knows that Starfall believes Wylla to be the mother.

And I've pointed out that the idea of Ned 'fostering' this story is stupid. And unnecessary. Not to mention counter-textual. We directly see Ned successfully shut down all conversations about Jon's origins, even with Robert. And we see no evidence at all that Ned told Robert Wylla was Jon's mother, only that he told him her name.

Ned is not in any position to be sure about the long term success of the Wylla story. Fine, even convenient, if someone believes it, but he is not in a position to know, for sure, that it can't be disproved by someone. So its a stupid story for him to put about.
Not to mention that its clearly not a story he puts about, since Winterfell gossips about Ashara, not Wylla.
The idea that he's putting about multiple different stories in different locations is even more ridiculous, by your own arguments!

I really don't get that intelligent people can hold onto this idea at all once the flaws have been pointed out to them. Its wrong on so many levels. Whats good for Ned, his style, what we are shown in the text, his words and actions, the varying stories in varying places, the fact that Winterfell doesn't even bring it up... they all shot this unsupported idea down. Yet people still cling to it... ?

The lucky part is that Wylla exists at all -- i.e., that a woman that Starfall would not know could not be the mother (for example, because she was seen and clearly not pregnant during the time she needed to be pregnant with Jon) comes into Starfall nursing Jon. That circumstance is luck.

Without that luck, Ned has some risk that word could get back to Robert that Wylla could not be the mother. Robert (or someone like Varys) could get curious and start digging. Once they start digging, who knows what they might uncover or deduce. But by having Robert led to believe that Wylla is the mother (whether actively, passively or even accidentally led to this conclusion) keeps more questions from being asked. Given that the place where Wylla is living (or if your theory is correct, where she is originally from (or the area around Starfall) and ends up living after nursing Jon) believes she is the mother makes people from KL less likely to search for a different answer.

Even with that luck he has this risk (as long as its a story he supports). So Starfall thinks Wylla is the mother. That means she wasn't at Starfall 9 months ago. And we are assuming she wasn't with Ned 9 months ago. So where was she? Who knew where she was? Who might Varys talk to... Ned can't control any of those things, and probably doesn't even know the answers himself.

However, if its not a story he supports, then its no problem for him, even if word does get back to Robert.

Ned could have had a situation where he did not have a plausible name to give. Where Wylla was known for some reason in Starfall not to be a candidate for mother -- and then Ned either could not have given that name to Robert or if Robert assumed that name, as you suggest, Robert might have discovered later that Wylla could not be the mother based on what people who know Wylla say when asked. And if that happened, Robert -- or someone like Varys -- might be more likely to investigate.

Sure they might investigate. But without a name, they have no leads except Ned. AExcept maybe the wetnurse and HR... which is why Ned is best to take her to Winterfell, not leave her in Starfall.
And don't forget, Ned successfully tells Robert to drop it when Robert does push in that general direction.

Maybe the investigation would come up with nothing anyway -- but keeping them from looking is a safer course. And having Robert believe the person is Wylla -- and having the people who know Wylla believe it is Wylla -- protects Jon. And so Ned was lucky that Wylla was someone that Starfall could believe to be the mother. There was no guarantee that such a woman would exist -- and having such a woman helped Ned in the end -- and so Ned was lucky that Wylla was a person who Starfall came to believe to be the mother. Ned had no way to guarantee that such a person would exist -- so the existence of such a person was lucky.

Sure. lucky for him Robert thinks its Wylla. And nobody ever disproved this. Which is better than Robert being puzzled and digging deeper. But somebody, somewhere, could disprove this (Wylla surely wasn't isolated around the time of conception of Jon - she wasn't with Lyanna and co then because the idea of a random servant in a hidden location fortuitously becoming a wetnurse for a baby thats not even conceived yet is just ludicrous), and Ned can't control the who or the how of that.

Corbon,

it is actually not helping Ned's case if he just allows people - especially Robert - to reach the conclusion that 'the wetnurse'/Wylla is Jon Snow's mother because if he does it the right way all those people will actually believe and later remember that Eddard Stark told them just that. You don't remember what people literally said only what you think they said, and Robert would (and does, in your scenario) think that Ned told him that the mother of his bastard is a woman named Wylla.

Its helping Ned if people believe what hey want to believe and stop thinking about it. You can't possibly disagree with that?

Ned does not need to 'lead' Robert to the conclusion that Wylla is Jon's mum. To do so is stupid and dangerous for Ned. But its also the sort of conclusion Robert would easily come to on his own.
And also the sort of conclusion that a flat denial would only reinforce. Ned could well have outright denied to Robert (assuming Robert was direct enough to even bring it up, which is no certainty) that Wylla is the mum, but that would just cement the idea deeper - that is after all what you are supposed to say in that situation!

There is no reason that Robert must think Ned told him Wylla was Jon's mother. Robert doesn't say that. Robert makes two independent statements, that the girl he is think of is Jon's mother and that Ned once told him the name of the girl he is thinking of. There are very many ways that original conversation could have gone, and the ones that fit best with everything we know are that Robert comes to that conclusion on his own, asks about the girl, gets a name. There may well have been innuendo from Robert, ignored or even refuted, but even a clear "no Robert, she's just a wetnurse" wouldn't change Robert's mind. That is after all the entire point of the 'cover' of using the mother as a bastards wetnurse. To do the est by mother and child while maintaining the fiction.

Should Robert ever find out the truth Ned isn't going to get away with by 'Buddy, I never actually told you that this woman was the boy's mother, you were just foolish enough to come up with that idea all by yourself and I never corrected you' since he actually told Robert and the world the lie that the boy was actually his bastard son (a lie he must have told at least once since we know for a fact Lord Eddard Stark acknowledged and raised Jon Snow as his natural son).

No one disputes that. Should Robert find the truth, nothing aid or unsaid will matter at all. But thats not the only scenario possible, and that scenario is the same whether Ned lies or not.

One also has to consider the scenario where someone is able to prove that Wylla cannot be Jon's mother because she was at XXX around the time when Jon must have been conceived, but everyone knows Ned Stark was at YYY in the Riverlands with his army. And thats not a scenario Ned has any control over.

If you want to maintain that Ned doesn't like to lie this scenario makes sense but we actually do know from his own POV that he told lies, so him literally telling the lie that Wylla is Jon Snow's mother doesn't strike me as unlikely in that scenario.

He tells lies when they are necessary, and useful.
This lie is neither necessary (Robert can easily believe so without a lie, not to mention that there are various apparently plausible (to those people) other stories also cropping up in other places, and Ned surely didn't 'set up' all of those, plus we see Ned successfully shut Robert down in this area, so he could easily have just done that), nor, on the balance of pros and cons, useful (its veracity is uncontrolled and if he is caught lying that is very much more dangerous than refusing to say anything).

If Wylla was only Jon Snow's wetnurse, and if she doesn't have a clue or any suspicion about the real mother of Jon Snow then Ned does indeed risk nothing by allowing Robert to reach the conclusion that she is the mother (or by outright telling him that). But if she is in on that secret or can reasonably have guessed the truth then bringing her to Robert's attention would be potentially dangerous if we assume Ned considers Robert Baratheon a threat to the very life of Lyanna's son (which I don't buy in its entirety). It gives Robert the means to unravel the whole story. All he needs to do is to track down Wylla and question her sharply. This is why I assume that Ned would only have given away Wylla's name in connection to Jon Snow - either as his wetnurse or his mother - if he had reason to believe that Wylla would back up/corroborate his story.

As noted above, it is risky for him to tell Robert Wylla's name, simply because he can't be sure he won't be caught out in a lie.
As to "bringing her to Robert's attention", of course he wouldn't do that by choice (she almost certainly does know something about Jon's real parentage). But if Robert asks about her, Ned has to be open and honest. If she's nothing more than a wetnurse he has nothing to hide about her, no reason to refuse to talk about her. So if Robert hears he has a bastard with him, and a wetnurse, and Robert puts 2 and 2 together to make... 5, as is quite likely, then Robert will ask about her and Ned can't show he is hiding anything or he gives away her importance. So he answers her name, a question we see is one of Robert's natural ones. He may then close the subject again, or reiterate she is just a wetnurse (confirming Roberts suspicions

The really big danger of this whole charade lies in the groundwork, and whether that's effective greatly hinges on what people actually believed/knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna for a fact. Did people know she was pregnant? Did people think she might have been pregnant? Did nobody ever think Rhaegar could even impregnate Lyanna? What is the official story of Lyanna Stark's death? What did Ned tell Robert about her death? I certainly don't believe he could have shut down that conversation easily. Hiding behind your 'brotherly grief' would be no good if you are talking to the man who romantically loved the woman in question with all his heard.

I very much doubt anybody knew anything about Lyanna. And few people other than Robert and Ned and some northerners cared. She was just some northern girl that disappeared well before the war even got started. The war was about Brandon's treason of Rhaegar and the over the top, escalating, response from Aerys etc, Lyanna is barely a footnote.  Except to Robert of course (and therefore Yandel).
And Rhaegar reappeared without her possibly months before he died. They are barely connected outside Robert and Ned.

And all Ned needs to tell Robert is a limited form of the truth. "She died of a fever" maybe "in my arms" as well. Its enough. This is painful for Robert, he doesn't need details, probably shies away from them (he likes details on fun times though, but not enough to push Ned if Ned warns him away). I do believe he could shut down that conversation easily. It fits both their characters and what we see from both of them. Follow the textual clues.

Whatever people believed about Lyanna and Rhaegar would greatly influence the probabilities whether people would easily or not so easily buy the 'Jon Snow story' or whether certain subtle/smart people would harbor some suspicions and eventually connect the dots. Cersei and Jaime apparently were very careful, too, yet Stannis still eventually grew suspicious and he and Jon Arryn began to investigate things.

Ned would have known what people believed about Lyanna much better than we right now do, and whatever sort of cover story he has in place he would have made some, presumably one in which he could actually eventually present a mother for his bastard in case he had to do it to dissuade any rumors about Lyanna-Rhaegar being the true parents. Realistically speaking Ned's word would have had weight, and the whole story about Lyanna-Rhaegar would have gained momentum (with Robert) as a (plausible) rumor. If Ned would be incapable of presenting a mother once pushed his whole story would collapse. But a convincing story involving a mother could still turn the tide at such a late point.

He. Has. No. Cover. Story. In. Place. With both of the main 'cover stories' we see him shut them down ASAP. Ned operates on the "don't talk about it" principle and we see it working for him. He is assisted in this by several organic rumours that allow people to come to a conclusion and stop thinking further.

The proof of abduction is strong (based on the resources of Brandon, likely from the Stark guards of Lyanna).

 

Lyanna did not have any information to Ned for one and half year (as far as we know). Again a good proof that she was held as a captive. 

There is no proof of abduction. Nor do we know that Ned had no information from Lyanna for a year and a half.

You are assuming things and then assuming that because you believe it, there is proof available to others that we have not seen. That might even be true, but its not a safe assumption and your language is inaccurate and inappropriate.

[purple-eyes]

And I've pointed out that the idea of Ned 'fostering' this story is stupid. And unnecessary. Not to mention counter-textual. We directly see Ned successfully shut down all conversations about Jon's origins, even with Robert. And we see no evidence at all that Ned told Robert Wylla was Jon's mother, only that he told him her name.

Ned is not in any position to be sure about the long term success of the Wylla story. Fine, even convenient, if someone believes it, but he is not in a position to know, for sure, that it can't be disproved by someone. So its a stupid story for him to put about.
Not to mention that its clearly not a story he puts about, since Winterfell gossips about Ashara, not Wylla.
The idea that he's putting about multiple different stories in different locations is even more ridiculous, by your own arguments!

I really don't get that intelligent people can hold onto this idea at all once the flaws have been pointed out to them. Its wrong on so many levels. Whats good for Ned, his style, what we are shown in the text, his words and actions, the varying stories in varying places, the fact that Winterfell doesn't even bring it up... they all shot this unsupported idea down. Yet people still cling to it... ?

Even with that luck he has this risk (as long as its a story he supports). So Starfall thinks Wylla is the mother. That means she wasn't at Starfall 9 months ago. And we are assuming she wasn't with Ned 9 months ago. So where was she? Who knew where she was? Who might Varys talk to... Ned can't control any of those things, and probably doesn't even know the answers himself.

However, if its not a story he supports, then its no problem for him, even if word does get back to Robert.

Sure they might investigate. But without a name, they have no leads except Ned. AExcept maybe the wetnurse and HR... which is why Ned is best to take her to Winterfell, not leave her in Starfall.
And don't forget, Ned successfully tells Robert to drop it when Robert does push in that general direction.

Sure. lucky for him Robert thinks its Wylla. And nobody ever disproved this. Which is better than Robert being puzzled and digging deeper. But somebody, somewhere, could disprove this (Wylla surely wasn't isolated around the time of conception of Jon - she wasn't with Lyanna and co then because the idea of a random servant in a hidden location fortuitously becoming a wetnurse for a baby thats not even conceived yet is just ludicrous), and Ned can't control the who or the how of that.

Its helping Ned if people believe what hey want to believe and stop thinking about it. You can't possibly disagree with that?

Ned does not need to 'lead' Robert to the conclusion that Wylla is Jon's mum. To do so is stupid and dangerous for Ned. But its also the sort of conclusion Robert would easily come to on his own.
And also the sort of conclusion that a flat denial would only reinforce. Ned could well have outright denied to Robert (assuming Robert was direct enough to even bring it up, which is no certainty) that Wylla is the mum, but that would just cement the idea deeper - that is after all what you are supposed to say in that situation!

There is no reason that Robert must think Ned told him Wylla was Jon's mother. Robert doesn't say that. Robert makes two independent statements, that the girl he is think of is Jon's mother and that Ned once told him the name of the girl he is thinking of. There are very many ways that original conversation could have gone, and the ones that fit best with everything we know are that Robert comes to that conclusion on his own, asks about the girl, gets a name. There may well have been innuendo from Robert, ignored or even refuted, but even a clear "no Robert, she's just a wetnurse" wouldn't change Robert's mind. That is after all the entire point of the 'cover' of using the mother as a bastards wetnurse. To do the est by mother and child while maintaining the fiction.

No one disputes that. Should Robert find the truth, nothing aid or unsaid will matter at all. But thats not the only scenario possible, and that scenario is the same whether Ned lies or not.

One also has to consider the scenario where someone is able to prove that Wylla cannot be Jon's mother because she was at XXX around the time when Jon must have been conceived, but everyone knows Ned Stark was at YYY in the Riverlands with his army. And thats not a scenario Ned has any control over.

He tells lies when they are necessary, and useful.
This lie is neither necessary (Robert can easily believe so without a lie, not to mention that there are various apparently plausible (to those people) other stories also cropping up in other places, and Ned surely didn't 'set up' all of those, plus we see Ned successfully shut Robert down in this area, so he could easily have just done that), nor, on the balance of pros and cons, useful (its veracity is uncontrolled and if he is caught lying that is very much more dangerous than refusing to say anything).

As noted above, it is risky for him to tell Robert Wylla's name, simply because he can't be sure he won't be caught out in a lie.
As to "bringing her to Robert's attention", of course he wouldn't do that by choice (she almost certainly does know something about Jon's real parentage). But if Robert asks about her, Ned has to be open and honest. If she's nothing more than a wetnurse he has nothing to hide about her, no reason to refuse to talk about her. So if Robert hears he has a bastard with him, and a wetnurse, and Robert puts 2 and 2 together to make... 5, as is quite likely, then Robert will ask about her and Ned can't show he is hiding anything or he gives away her importance. So he answers her name, a question we see is one of Robert's natural ones. He may then close the subject again, or reiterate she is just a wetnurse (confirming Roberts suspicions

I very much doubt anybody knew anything about Lyanna. And few people other than Robert and Ned and some northerners cared. She was just some northern girl that disappeared well before the war even got started. The war was about Brandon's treason of Rhaegar and the over the top, escalating, response from Aerys etc, Lyanna is barely a footnote.  Except to Robert of course (and therefore Yandel).
And Rhaegar reappeared without her possibly months before he died. They are barely connected outside Robert and Ned.

And all Ned needs to tell Robert is a limited form of the truth. "She died of a fever" maybe "in my arms" as well. Its enough. This is painful for Robert, he doesn't need details, probably shies away from them (he likes details on fun times though, but not enough to push Ned if Ned warns him away). I do believe he could shut down that conversation easily. It fits both their characters and what we see from both of them. Follow the textual clues.

He. Has. No. Cover. Story. In. Place. With both of the main 'cover stories' we see him shut them down ASAP. Ned operates on the "don't talk about it" principle and we see it working for him. He is assisted in this by several organic rumours that allow people to come to a conclusion and stop thinking further.

 

There is no proof of abduction. Nor do we know that Ned had no information from Lyanna for a year and a half.

You are assuming things and then assuming that because you believe it, there is proof available to others that we have not seen. That might even be true, but its not a safe assumption and your language is inaccurate and inappropriate.

I am talking about from Ned's view it is a kidnapping. 

Not that I thought it is a kidnapping. 

Ned, ned thought it is kidnapping, just like Brandon and Robert. 

I do not think it is a kidnapping. 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Corbon--

I really think you are taking my latest point (which really was not intended to be a big point and was merely intended as a way to get this thread going again, as no one had posted to this thread since the "re-boot" set things back to September) out of context. I am not directly addressing whether Ned told Robert or led Robert to believe anything. Whether Ned told Robert anything or led Robert to believe anything is completely irrelevant to this small and inconsequential point I was making. The point is incredibly narrow and not really that interesting -- but as we have nothing else really to talk about, I will try to clarify my point.

The point is basically this -- as you state, Ned could not control whether people at Starfall believed that Wylla was the mother. It was totally out of Ned's control. Starfall could have known where Wylla was 9 months before birth and knew that she was no where near anywhere Ned might have been. But clearly Starfall does not have that information because they believe Wylla is the mother. That is the luck I am talking about. The luck that Stafall came to believe Wylla to be the mother. If the facts had been just a little different Starfall would not believe this "fact" about the identity of Jon's mother because they could have known Wylla was some place 9 months prior to birth where Ned could not have been -- and they clearly don't have such information because they believe Wylla is the mother -- and thus luck is involved.

Why do I think this could have mattered -- why this eventuality counts as "luck" for Ned? I simply posit that anything that shuts down inquiry about the identity of Jon's mother is good for Ned. So the fact that no one in Starfall (where Wylla either is from or where she eventually comes to live after nursing Jon is you are correct about the wetnurse at Winterfell) has information that would contradict Robert's belief is good for Ned. Speculation at CR or Winterfell is not as big a deal because people don't know Wylla at those places -- but information about Wylla from Starfall could be an issue. Now I am not saying that if Starfall said that Wylla definitely could not be the mother then Robert would have gone after Ned or Jon. That is purely speculative -- I admit. And I really have no idea how Robert would have reacted. But the fact that Ned ended up not having to worry about such an eventuality -- something that Ned could not control (as you state) -- is lucky.

Basically, anything that makes it less likely that Robert or others in KL (like Varys) will ask uncomfortable questions about Jon is good for Ned -- and thus lucky for Ned if Ned could not control the circumstance that made inquiry less likely. Now you might argue that it does not matter to Ned if Robert finds out that Starfall knows that Wylla could not be the mother. If that is your point -- I disagree. Sure, there is no guarantee that Robert will bother to inquire further or that without some name that anything would come of any inquiry -- but without a name, Robert might come to believe Lyanna is the mother and that would not be good for Ned, even if Robert could not come up with definitive proof. Thus -- Ned was lucky that Starfall believed Wylla to be the mother and did not have contradictory information that could have gotten back to Robert.

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

well, 'all his heart' is a little too much for 'brotherly love'. As is talking about your own sister as 'a child-woman of surpassing loveliness' - it includes romantic and even sexual undertones. Whether this is supposed to mean that Robert was obsessed with Lyanna I don't know. I'm not so sure about that since Robert certainly was into other women as well, and simply had not the time to spend all that much time with Lyanna Stark to become so much obsessed about her, even if we go with the assumption that she and Robert spend some time together in the Vale when the Starks were visiting Ned there.

I think Robert's 'Rhaegar obsession' only took root after the Trident when he slowly became more and more unhappy with how his life turned out. Lyanna became a symbol for 'how things could have been different/better' and Rhaegar became the demon who took all that from him. I don't think all of that had been there from the start in the intensity it was later, but I'd agree with Yandel that Harrenhal most likely ended whatever sort of cousinly bond there might have been between Robert and Rhaegar prior to that incident.

The idea that Robert must have been really ignorant about what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar never made any sense, I'd agree there. What I wanted to bring up is the question when exactly Ned and Robert realized that there was a different layer to all that. And my guess is that this would not have been at the time Robert made that vow to kill Rhaegar.

Considering that Ned and Robert supposedly were 'closer than brothers' at this time (certainly closer than Robert and Stannis ever were) I think one can expect them to tell each other the truth. Brothers should be able to tell each other the truth, and if Ned knows or suspects what's really going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna he could have prevented the Trident and/or that Robert made Lyanna a widow. Ned's own business with House Targaryen would have been more with Aerys II than with Rhaegar in such a scenario, and for him there was always the chance of making a separate peace with Rhaegar and help him depose his father. 

Lyanna clearly judged Robert's character right, but that doesn't mean she did not like him, just that she had no illusions about the type of man he was. It also shows that she doesn't care or give all that much about 'love', suggesting that she never really had been in love (something that might change when she later meets Rhaegar).

LV,

I think you read way too much into Ned's phrases to describe his love for his sister and his description of her. These are idioms that don't necessarily carry the sexual overtones you want to put into them. "All his heart" can mean the platonic love one feels for someone close to you, or it can mean romantic love as well. In this case we have no reason to think Ned's love for his sister is anything other than platonic. The phrase only means his heart is full to its capacity with his love for Lyanna. That's all it means. Nor does it mean one has a sexual attraction to another to note their "surpassing loveliness." We don't have to be weak-in-the-knees with sexual desire for someone to know they are beautiful. Ned tells Arya she looks like Lyanna, and I don't think Martin is trying to tell us he has a sexual attraction for his daughter anymore than he is trying to tell us he had such feelings for his sister. I just find the whole read of it rather unsupported and skewed.

As when Robert's obsession take root, I think we see it early with the quote your referenced. Robert vows to kill Rhaegar, and that vow likely takes place after he finds out Rhaegar has "stolen" Lyanna from him. So, sometime before Aerys's call for Ned and Robert's head is my guess. We should remember that Robert isn't likely to have forgiven Rhaegar for naming Lyanna the queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal. We know outwardly he accepts this as "Lyanna's due" but, as TWoI&F tells us, and fitting in with what we know of Robert's temper, he was very likely to have been extremely angry with Rhaegar for "staking a claim" so to speak on his bride-to-be. I think Robert's obsessive hatred of his cousin grew from there and blossomed into a all consuming hatred with the "kidnapping."

I've no doubt Robert is attracted to Lyanna. The fact she isn't falling all over herself in returning that attraction is likely a turn on to Robert. He has been promised this northern beauty as his wife and he is fixated on making her his. Ever more so as he has to wait, either until a wedding date is set, or through Lyanna's objections, or both. I think this "love" for Lyanna becomes more than an obsessive attraction towards her, and turns into an obsessive need to have her as his property with the "kidnapping." Rhaegar stole her from Robert. Rhaegar usurped Robert's rights by taking her away. This is an intensely personal shame and violation to Robert, and I think it is these twin obsessions that define Robert's character even up to his death.

Whether or not Robert actually admits to himself that Lyanna went willingly, or the "different layer" I think you allude to, is another matter. I think we see Robert trying to deal with it when he talks about how "Rhaegar won" and how "Rhaegar has her" but this is some fourteen years after the event of the kidnapping. I think this speaks to how Robert views this through the lens of what was his, and what was his rights to Lyanna, instead of what Lyanna thinks. What Lyanna wanted just isn't a major factor in his anger, because he refuses to consider Lyanna's wishes in the matter. This is a war, a very personal war, between Rhaegar and Robert.

I don't think Ned need tell Robert the truth about Lyanna's feelings. As I said, I think up until the sack and Robert's countenance of the murder of Rhaegar's children, I think Ned probably thinks his sister refusing to do her duty to marry Robert was wrong and outrageous. Ned is forced to see another side of Robert when he accepts Tywin's bloody tribute and pronounce Rhaegar's children "dragonspawn." When he sees his dying sister's fear for what Ned will do with her child, I think it is the last straw in Ned's view of his duty to Robert over his love for his sister. So, no, I don't think Ned would ever confront Robert about Lyanna's feelings. First, because he agrees with Robert, and after he has promised to Lyanna to protect Jon, because it would be extremely dangerous to do so.

I don't know if Lyanna ever liked Robert at all. I can't imagine she liked the prospect of marrying him, given what she thought of his character, but that doesn't mean she may have once put her duty to marry him over her dislike for a future with Robert. I think she has feelings for Rhaegar after Harrenhal, and this hardens her heart towards the marriage to Robert, if she ever considered accepting it.

 

As to Benjen:

That's part TWoIaF but also part Jon I, really. Benjen's approach of Jon doesn't really seem to suggest that he is aware/suspicious of his true identity, something that would have to be the case if he knew the details of the Lyanna-Rhaegar story. Ned is very concerned when he learns about Jon's desire to join the NW (apparently because he doesn't want Jon Snow to join the NW while he doesn't yet know who he actually is) - that is really all over the place when you read the conversation in Catelyn II - but Benjen actually reports this whole thing to Luwin instead of going directly to his brother about it (which one would assume he would do if he knew he was Lyanna's son).

I don't think Ben gives any other indication than 'It is stupid for 14-year-old to join the NW while he doesn't yet know what he gives up in the process, and there is a pretty good hint that he is speaking from experience there since Benjen Stark actually wasn't all that old or had fathered any bastards we know of (or any sexual experience) when he joined the NW.

I think Benjen is Lyanna's confidante. He is the closest sibling to her. He teases her at Harrenhal about crying upon hearing Rhaegar's song, and he is the one we know for sure who helps train her to fight when we know Rickard doesn't want her to learn. I doubt very seriously the objections Lyanna voices to Ned weren't known to Benjen as well. I'm pretty sure, given the "wolf's blood" comment and what we know of Lyanna's nature from other sources, that she didn't hide her feelings from Rickard or Brandon either, but none of that speaks to whether or not Benjen knew about Jon being Lyanna's son. I suspect Benjen suspects, but Ned never tells him. 

Again, I think it likely that Benjen's decision to join the Night's Watch when he does is in part due to the distance between Ned and Benjen over the split within the family concerning honoring Lyanna's wishes to not marry Robert. When Ned comes home with news of Lyanna's death, I think it is too much for Benjen to stay with Ned as if nothing had happened. That is not to say the brothers don't love each other - "with all their hearts" - but that Lyanna's death and the role Rickard's "southron ambitions" played in bringing it about created a gulf between the brothers. My thoughts, anyway.

[Ygrain]

I see that you guys are still at it... Are you receiving notifications? i've lost track of the dicussion due to their absence.

[Avalatis]

I just generally leave this open in a tab and occasionally refresh it to see what's new. One of the more recent discussions that's interesting is whether or not Ned actively proposed a story for who Jon's mother was. The discussion between Robert and Ned in GOT seems to suggest that Ned lied to Robert and had told him that Wylla was indeed the mother.

 

Corbon postulates that Ned never actually stated that but let Robert draw his own conclusions. This is supported by the fact that there are three different stories: Ashara, Wylla, and Fishermen's daughter. Ned clearly didn't run around planting all these stories, but the stories still took root. So Ned probably used a strategy of avoiding the topic and might have even denied some of the allegations but people chose to believe those stories anyways.

 

I still wonder if Wylla is truly in the know about what's going on with Jon, why did Ned leave her in Starfall? She has dangerous knowledge that could endanger his Nephew, Himself, and the entire North. This seems to suggest that the Daynes were in on it and could definitely be trusted. Or does Wylla even know? Howland might have retrieved her from a local village around the TOJ and she wasn't actually told any information (such as the true identity of the mother). Was she given strict instructions to never confirm or deny being Jon's mother?

[Ygrain]

I just generally leave this open in a tab and occasionally refresh it to see what's new. One of the more recent discussions that's interesting is whether or not Ned actively proposed a story for who Jon's mother was. The discussion between Robert and Ned in GOT seems to suggest that Ned lied to Robert and had told him that Wylla was indeed the mother.

 

Corbon postulates that Ned never actually stated that but let Robert draw his own conclusions. This is supported by the fact that there are three different stories: Ashara, Wylla, and Fishermen's daughter. Ned clearly didn't run around planting all these stories, but the stories still took root. So Ned probably used a strategy of avoiding the topic and might have even denied some of the allegations but people chose to believe those stories anyways.

 

I still wonder if Wylla is truly in the know about what's going on with Jon, why did Ned leave her in Starfall? She has dangerous knowledge that could endanger his Nephew, Himself, and the entire North. This seems to suggest that the Daynes were in on it and could definitely be trusted. Or does Wylla even know? Howland might have retrieved her from a local village around the TOJ and she wasn't actually told any information (such as the true identity of the mother). Was she given strict instructions to never confirm or deny being Jon's mother?

 I also believe that Ned must have lied to Robert at some point, because unlike the Ashara story (Ashara was witnessed by many dancing with Ned and known to have given birth), the Wylla version has virtually no basis to be (incorrectly) deduced. There was a wetnurse at Winterfell, but her name is never mentioned. There is a gossip about Jon's mother being commonborn at Winterfell, yet again, no name. There seems to be nothing from which we could conclude that Robert might have overheard the name from someone else but Ned himself. 

I'd say that Wylla was left at Starfall so that she was safely out of reach of anyone who might have enquired. I also think that although she might not have been originally from Starfall, she might be related to some servant of the Daynes, or else I don't see any plausible reason why the Daynes should place the mother of Ned Stark's supposed bastard in their household.

Still no notifications, and where is the pull corner to make the reply window larger? :-(

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 I also believe that Ned must have lied to Robert at some point, because unlike the Ashara story (Ashara was witnessed by many dancing with Ned and known to have given birth), the Wylla version has virtually no basis to be (incorrectly) deduced. There was a wetnurse at Winterfell, but her name is never mentioned. There is a gossip about Jon's mother being commonborn at Winterfell, yet again, no name. There seems to be nothing from which we could conclude that Robert might have overheard the name from someone else but Ned himself. 

I'd say that Wylla was left at Starfall so that she was safely out of reach of anyone who might have enquired. I also think that although she might not have been originally from Starfall, she might be related to some servant of the Daynes, or else I don't see any plausible reason why the Daynes should place the mother of Ned Stark's supposed bastard in their household.

Still no notifications, and where is the pull corner to make the reply window larger? :-(

 

 

corbon's argument basically is that based on Ned's behavior (like the way he deflects Robert's questions in GoT), he probably just said that the baby is with his wetnurse in the boat or in town when Ned reconciled with Robert after returning to KL from Dorne, and Robert assumed that "wetnurse" is code for "mother". When Robert asked for the name of the wetnurse (wink/wink), Ned told Robert her name is Wylla and Robert took it to mean the name of the mother. Then, after Jon is weaned, Wylla is returned from Winterfell to Starfall.

I am not 100% convinced of this theory, but you would have to read posts that are now deleted (at least for the time being) from the old board to see all the details of the argument. corbon thinks I am being unusually dense by not seeing the obviousness in his position. I still think that Ned and Wylla agreeing to tell Robert that Wylla is the mother is possible -- and that Ned lied to Robert. corbon seems a bit frustrated that I am not fully convinced by him.

Our most recent exchange, however, is focused on whether Ned was "lucky" that the people who knew Wylla at Starfall did not have information that would have eliminated Wylla as a potential candidate for mother of Jon. That debate is up-thread in this version, but I think this exchange has been more a result of a misunderstanding between corbon and me and not necessarily a genuine disagreement (but I am not entirely sure as I have not fully vetted the issues with him yet as our time zone differences tend to mean only one post from each to the other a day).

[Avalatis]

 I also believe that Ned must have lied to Robert at some point, because unlike the Ashara story (Ashara was witnessed by many dancing with Ned and known to have given birth), the Wylla version has virtually no basis to be (incorrectly) deduced. There was a wetnurse at Winterfell, but her name is never mentioned. There is a gossip about Jon's mother being commonborn at Winterfell, yet again, no name. There seems to be nothing from which we could conclude that Robert might have overheard the name from someone else but Ned himself. 

I'd say that Wylla was left at Starfall so that she was safely out of reach of anyone who might have enquired. I also think that although she might not have been originally from Starfall, she might be related to some servant of the Daynes, or else I don't see any plausible reason why the Daynes should place the mother of Ned Stark's supposed bastard in their household.

Still no notifications, and where is the pull corner to make the reply window larger? :-(

 

 

I got a notification that you were quoted me. So I'm not sure what the issue is for you. Window size at least in Mozilla/Windows grows as you hit return carriage and your post expands automatically.

Corbon's explanation is that Wylla was seen with Ned both coming into Starfall (why rumors are there) and possibly as the wet nurse heading North with him to Winterfel. Though it remains a mystery to me why Ned would bring her North just to send her back to Starfall.

We saw Cat brings up Ashara and Ned shuts it down pretty quickly. Yet she and everyone at Winterfel believe pretty strongly that she is the mother. Corbon proposes the same strategy was used with Robert. He has a "fan fic" dialogue between the two that may be lost now due to the forum change. It went something like this:

Robert: "I hear you have a bastard with you. Ah, the old honorable Ned showing he is human like the rest of us".

Ned: "Yes My King... I do not wish to talk about it."

Robert: "Who's the woman traveling with you and your bastard? You bringing the mother back for some fun time on the side eh?"

Ned: "Her name is Wylla and she is just a wetnurse."

Robert: "I'm sure she is... I won't tell Cat, don't worry about it."

Anyone else inquiring Starfall about it would also assume Wylla was the mother due to the rumors there (especially if the Daynes are in on the conspiracy).

As for being left at Starfall she is completely out of the domain of Ned. He could have made her a servant anywhere in the North to reduce the chance the wrong ears would over hear it. So unless he trusts the Daynes and Wylla a lot, it seems really odd.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

Rereading Eddard II last night, I've to say that the scenario in which Robert once asked Ned about the wetnurse/woman taking care of his bastard and then falsely concluded that this woman must be the bastard's mother is exceedingly unlikely. Robert never saw Wylla nor did Ned ever describe to him how she looked like, suggesting that Robert must have, at one point, directly asked Ned about who the mother of his bastard was, and then Ned answered with a name.

In my opinion, the best time for such a conversation would have been some time after the end of the war before Ned eventually returned back North. But that doesn't have to be the case - it could have been later, at a point in time when Robert had learned from other sources that Eddard Stark had a bastard son. I'd be very surprised, though, if Ned actually took Jon Snow with him when he returned from the tower/Starfall to KL. That would have combined the news about Lyanna's death and the end of the knights at the tower with this sudden revelation about Eddard Stark's bastard son which would have been a very risky thing to do. Considering Ned's official story - that he fathered the child after he married Catelyn - doesn't make it appear likely that Lyanna's son is of the same age as Ned's bastard would be. Anyone taking a closer look at the child may have realized that it looks very old for his alleged age.

Whether the name Ned used back then actually was Wylla back then we don't know because we don't have accounts on that conversation, but unless Ned didn't want to risk to create a risky inconsistency one assumes that he said her name was Wylla, just as he does in Eddard II again.

This doesn't tell us anything about who Wylla is and what she knows, of course, but circumstantial evidence (her involvement with the Daynes) strongly suggests that Wylla is at the heart of the Jon Snow mystery one way or the other (if we assume the Wylla Edric talks about is the same Ned mentions in AGoT), and therefore it would be rather risky on Ned's part to actually mention the name to Robert at all if he felt he could have lied or could chosen to remain silent on the matter.

My general guess would be that Ned's original talk with Robert about Jon Snow's mother was carefully prepared and had the purpose of reducing the likelihood that Robert would ever consider the possibility that Ned's bastard might actually be Lyanna's son.

This whole thing goes still back to the question why the hell Ned (and possibly the dying Lyanna) felt they had to disguise Lyanna's son as Ned's bastard rather than Lyanna's own bastard. She was dead, Rhaegar was dead, and as far as we know Robert never tracked down any real or imagined bastards of Aerys II or Jaehaerys II. Not to mention that without Rhaegar being alive to acknowledge the boy as his bastard and the child having no visible Targaryen features at all it would be rather unlikely that anyone would be all that eager to believe that this child was Rhaegar Targaryen's son - without proof that Rhaegar actually fathered, there wouldn't be any clarity on the matter.

The child would also have not been in danger if there had been a secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna because apparently all witnesses of such an event are dead (the last witnesses dying would have been Whent and Dayne). If therefore nobody in Westeros knew or suspected that Rhaegar and Lyanna could have married, then it would have been safe enough for the child to raise it as Lyanna's bastard.

The fact that didn't happen could be a rather big hint that many people had reason to believe/actually knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were indeed married, and that this caused Ned to go to the extreme measure of disguising the child as his son which really seems to be a big issue for him.

SfDanny,

well, perhaps I'm looking to much for sexual undertones. The whole Jon-Arya farewell quite obviously seems to have been written with a later romance in mind as per the original outline - the constant rustling of hair, Arya showering Jon with kisses, them finishing each other's sentences, Jon making the allusion that different paths could lead to the same castle (i.e. Arya eventually fleeing to the Wall after the destruction of Winterfell)

But I'd agree that this is most likely bogus.

With Robert's 'Rhaegar obsession' I mostly mean this whole behavior he shows in AGoT. If you mention a Targaryen he starts going on about them and their wickedness in a tone that has the crows in the grass take flight. I don't think young Robert was this way, and I guess in that sense the 'Rhaegar obsession' would be something he nourished much more after he died than he had time to during his lifetime.

What the relationship between Robert and Lyanna is much more difficult to speculate about since we really don't know anything about how/when they first met, and how this whole romance/betrothal gestated. All we know is that it was apparently arranged by Robert when he was already Lord of Storm's End since he brokered that match himself (278 AC onwards). At this time Lyanna Stark was only 11-12 years old, scarcely the age to enchant a youth 4-5 years her elder. There is also little chance that Steffon had already arranged a betrothal for his heir considering that it would have dishonorable on Robert's part to dissolve such a betrothal in favor of marrying Lyanna.

I can see a younger Lyanna and a younger Robert have some sort of playful Arya-Gendry relationship (they have a similar age gap) but the whole setting is making it clearly unlikely Robert was already obsessed with Lyanna by the time of their betrothal (which was most likely in 279/280 AC depending when exactly Mya Stone was born. Lyanna was then still in her very early teens, and had most likely not yet fully matured into that beauty (i.e. that 'child-woman of surpassing loveliness') who ends up enchanting Rhaegar at Harrenhal in 281 AC.

Whether Lyanna ever raised any objections against her betrothal to Robert is unclear at that point. I always read her line to Ned about Robert as her discussing the human (male) condition and love as a concept rather than as her actually opposing the idea of marrying him. But I could be wrong there. I don't think, though, that Lyanna would have been betrothed to Robert if she had been against the match. The way she is portrayed in Meera's story suggests that she was a very strong-willed person who might have been able to get what she wanted pretty much all the time, especially if she had one or two of her brothers on her side. I think the trouble on began at Harrenhal, when she met Rhaegar, not with the betrothal in itself.

Benjen clearly was a confidante of Lyanna's in their childhood, and indeed most likely the brother she was closest to. Yet that doesn't mean this continued all the way until after she and Rhaegar hooked up at Harrenhal. But then, perhaps Jon I just doesn't reflect whatever George later decided Benjen should know. I'm inclined to believe that he had to disappear because he grew into a guy who knew too much (the original outline had Ben Stark as the Lord Commander of the NW, not Mormont).

If you on to something there and Ben's decision to take the Black was partially motivated by Ned's approach to the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing then I think we have to assume Ned knew perfectly well what was going on - or had a very good guess - by the time he marched to war from Winterfell because we have to assume that Ben remained behind and had ample opportunity to talk to Ned after the latter came north from the Vale.

Who knows, perhaps it turns out that Ned decided to choose his friend Robert (who was in severe trouble in the South) over his own family (Benjen, Lyanna, and - by marriage - even Rhaegar) during the Rebellion? That would certainly give the whole another interesting spin, not to mention that the new Lord of Winterfell had to show his mettle in the wake of Aerys executing Brandon and Rickard. It would have been very difficult to not go to war against House Targaryen.

[Avalatis]

corbon's argument basically is that based on Ned's behavior (like the way he deflects Robert's questions in GoT), he probably just said that the baby is with his wetnurse in the boat or in town when Ned reconciled with Robert after returning to KL from Dorne, and Robert assumed that "wetnurse" is code for "mother". When Robert asked for the name of the wetnurse (wink/wink), Ned told Robert her name is Wylla and Robert took it to mean the name of the mother. Then, after Jon is weaned, Wylla is returned from Winterfell to Starfall.

I am not 100% convinced of this theory, but you would have to read posts that are now deleted (at least for the time being) from the old board to see all the details of the argument. corbon thinks I am being unusually dense by not seeing the obviousness in his position. I still think that Ned and Wylla agreeing to tell Robert that Wylla is the mother is possible -- and that Ned lied to Robert. corbon seems a bit frustrated that I am not fully convinced by him.

Our most recent exchange, however, is focused on whether Ned was "lucky" that the people who knew Wylla at Starfall did not have information that would have eliminated Wylla as a potential candidate for mother of Jon. That debate is up-thread in this version, but I think this exchange has been more a result of a misunderstanding between corbon and me and not necessarily a genuine disagreement (but I am not entirely sure as I have not fully vetted the issues with him yet as our time zone differences tend to mean only one post from each to the other a day).

Do we have any clue where Wylla is from? If she was originally from a village close to the TOJ (and not Starfall) they would not have any of that information about her.

[Ygrain]

corbon's argument basically is that based on Ned's behavior (like the way he deflects Robert's questions in GoT), he probably just said that the baby is with his wetnurse in the boat or in town when Ned reconciled with Robert after returning to KL from Dorne, and Robert assumed that "wetnurse" is code for "mother". When Robert asked for the name of the wetnurse (wink/wink), Ned told Robert her name is Wylla and Robert took it to mean the name of the mother. Then, after Jon is weaned, Wylla is returned from Winterfell to Starfall.

I am not 100% convinced of this theory, but you would have to read posts that are now deleted (at least for the time being) from the old board to see all the details of the argument. corbon thinks I am being unusually dense by not seeing the obviousness in his position. I still think that Ned and Wylla agreeing to tell Robert that Wylla is the mother is possible -- and that Ned lied to Robert. corbon seems a bit frustrated that I am not fully convinced by him.

Our most recent exchange, however, is focused on whether Ned was "lucky" that the people who knew Wylla at Starfall did not have information that would have eliminated Wylla as a potential candidate for mother of Jon. That debate is up-thread in this version, but I think this exchange has been more a result of a misunderstanding between corbon and me and not necessarily a genuine disagreement (but I am not entirely sure as I have not fully vetted the issues with him yet as our time zone differences tend to mean only one post from each to the other a day).

Well, I'm not saying that corbon's scenario is implausible, but I am a proponent of the theory that Ned wouldn't want to establish any connection between himself and baby Jon while he was in the South, because such a connection might get people wondering about the child's origin and even link it to Lyanna's death. For all we know, Robert might have learned about Jon only months to years later, when the gossip spread from the North that Lord Stark is raising his bastard  right at his home, and Robert might have been poking his nose into it during Balon's rebellion.

I've been wondering about the whole Starfall thing and I am slowly leaning towards Ran's hypothesis of Jon at Starfall - the TWOIAF motive of the KG staying away from the king so as not to draw attention to his secret hideout is rather suspicious, and if Wylla had only recently arrived, claiming to be Jon's mother, there wouldn't be the need of any "got lucky". Ned merely turned up a couple of weeks later, claiming he was the baby's father, and demanding the baby.

 

I got a notification that you were quoted me. So I'm not sure what the issue is for you. Window size at least in Mozilla/Windows grows as you hit return carriage and your post expands automatically.

Corbon's explanation is that Wylla was seen with Ned both coming into Starfall (why rumors are there) and possibly as the wet nurse heading North with him to Winterfel. Though it remains a mystery to me why Ned would bring her North just to send her back to Starfall.

We saw Cat brings up Ashara and Ned shuts it down pretty quickly. Yet she and everyone at Winterfel believe pretty strongly that she is the mother. 

Nope, no notifications for replies nor quotes.

I don't think Wylla was the wetnurse at Winterfell, either. We have had this discussion before, and I simply do not see why Ned wouldn't switch nurses somewhere on the way, thus making sure that he was the one and only person outside Starfall knowing the truth.

That bolded is incorrect. Harwin doesn't believe it, and there's a rumour circulating that Jon's mother was commonborn (we learn about it in Sansa's PoV but it is mentioned only in passing),

[UnmaskedLurker]

Do we have any clue where Wylla is from? If she was originally from a village close to the TOJ (and not Starfall) they would not have any of that information about her.

All we know is that Wylla ends up at Starfall (nursed Edric Dayne) and presumably was with Jon at Starfall at some point for people at Starfall to believe she is the mother and tell Edric he is milk brother to Jon. From that information, she probably needs to be someone that Arthur and probably Ashara trusted. From that I conclude she was either a servant at Starfall or someone in the surrounding area that sometimes worked at Starfall. But I admit we only know where she ends up at the time Edric is a baby -- no other information can be confirmed 100%. But logically, she needs to be from somewhere in Dorne at a minimum to have been seen with Jon at Starfall.

Well, I'm not saying that corbon's scenario is implausible, but I am a proponent of the theory that Ned wouldn't want to establish any connection between himself and baby Jon while he was in the South, because such a connection might get people wondering about the child's origin and even link it to Lyanna's death. For all we know, Robert might have learned about Jon only months to years later, when the gossip spread from the North that Lord Stark is raising his bastard  right at his home, and Robert might have been poking his nose into it during Balon's rebellion.

I've been wondering about the whole Starfall thing and I am slowly leaning towards Ran's hypothesis of Jon at Starfall - the TWOIAF motive of the KG staying away from the king so as not to draw attention to his secret hideout is rather suspicious, and if Wylla had only recently arrived, claiming to be Jon's mother, there wouldn't be the need of any "got lucky". Ned merely turned up a couple of weeks later, claiming he was the baby's father, and demanding the baby.

 

Nope, no notifications for replies nor quotes.

I don't think Wylla was the wetnurse at Winterfell, either. We have had this discussion before, and I simply do not see why Ned wouldn't switch nurses somewhere on the way, thus making sure that he was the one and only person outside Starfall knowing the truth.

That bolded is incorrect. Harwin doesn't believe it, and there's a rumour circulating that Jon's mother was commonborn (we learn about it in Sansa's PoV but it is mentioned only in passing),

I am not sure I am following. We know Starfall thinks Wylla to be the mother -- and everyone knows Jon was brought back from the South -- so Ned could not separate himself and Jon from the South. I think everyone knows Jon was born in the South -- in Dorne. That is why Wylla and Ashara are the leading candidates. And the most likely time for Ned to have a conversation with Robert in which Wylla's name in mentioned is their reconciliation when Ned travels from Starfall -- to KL -- and then to Winterfell. And Jon must have been with Ned for that trip because there is a line about Ned arriving at Winterfell with Jon and the wetnurse. 

As far as "get lucky" -- again even under your scenario there is luck. The luck in that scenario is that Ned walks into a situation where someone else has already claimed to be Jon's mother and cannot be proven not to be Jon's mother. Walking into such a cover story looks pretty lucky to me. Ned could not have guaranteed it -- and it gave him the perfect situation where Robert ended up with a name that could not be disproved -- a lot of luck in my book.

As far as notifications -- i get them as numbers appearing next to the bell at the top of the page whenever someone quotes me.

[SFDanny]

Do we have any clue where Wylla is from? If she was originally from a village close to the TOJ (and not Starfall) they would not have any of that information about her.

 

All we know is that Wylla ends up at Starfall (nursed Edric Dayne) and presumably was with Jon at Starfall at some point for people at Starfall to believe she is the mother and tell Edric he is milk brother to Jon. From that information, she probably needs to be someone that Arthur and probably Ashara trusted. From that I conclude she was either a servant at Starfall or someone in the surrounding area that sometimes worked at Starfall. But I admit we only know where she ends up at the time Edric is a baby -- no other information can be confirmed 100%. But logically, she needs to be from somewhere in Dorne at a minimum to have been seen with Jon at Starfall.

I am not sure I am following. We know Starfall thinks Wylla to be the mother -- and everyone knows Jon was brought back from the South -- so Ned could not separate himself and Jon from the South. I think everyone knows Jon was born in the South -- in Dorne. That is why Wylla and Ashara are the leading candidates. And the most likely time for Ned to have a conversation with Robert in which Wylla's name in mentioned is their reconciliation when Ned travels from Starfall -- to KL -- and then to Winterfell. And Jon must have been with Ned for that trip because there is a line about Ned arriving at Winterfell with Jon and the wetnurse. 

As far as "get lucky" -- again even under your scenario there is luck. The luck in that scenario is that Ned walks into a situation where someone else has already claimed to be Jon's mother and cannot be proven not to be Jon's mother. Walking into such a cover story looks pretty lucky to me. Ned could not have guaranteed it -- and it gave him the perfect situation where Robert ended up with a name that could not be disproved -- a lot of luck in my book.

We don't know where Wylla is from, but I've argued there may be clues. The whole Fisherman's Daughter story reads to me as a cover story. A story repeated to visitors to Lord Godric Borrell's dank little hall on the Three Sisters to let people know when and where Ned and a certain common woman met. Lord Borrell starts his tale with Ned having washed up from a storm that killed a fisherman who tried to transport Ned back to the north. The fisherman's daughter survived, along with Ned, and after holding Ned Lord Godric's father sends him on his way - supposedly along with a now pregnant fisherman's daughter.

Readers of these pages know this is too early for the Jon Snow we know to have been conceived, but as a cover story how Ned meets a certain common woman others maybe searching to find out more about, it works. Lord Borrell lets us know upfront where his father's loyalties were. A supporter of the Targaryen regime who supposedly lets Ned go as insurance in case the rebels win. I don't think this story is just a local fable grown up over the years and I don't think it is an accident Godric speaks so contemptuously about a Frey visitor who presumes to carry the name Rhaegar.

The second part of this is Wylla's name. We find the name used in White Harbor, the Red Mountains, and names like it in areas of the Reach. The latter making some sense if we remember that is where the Manderlys are from. I think these are clues that Wylla is from the area of the Three Sisters, and she is the daughter of a local fisherman. It is a story developed, I think, specifically to provide the right answers to anyone trying to verify Ned's story that Wylla is Jon's mother. Judging by Stannis's comment about Jon being the son of a fishwife, I'd say this is not the first time Borrell has told his tale to strange visitors.

Anyway, that is the basis for my guess of where Wylla is from. She could also reasonably be from the Red Mountains of Dorne, and just a local midwife/wetnurse who the people of the Tower found in anticipation of the birth of a child. What I highly doubt is that she is originally from Starfall.

[Aint Nuthin But A HoundDog]

I'm new here, although I've been a lurker for a long time. Please be gentle, as I'm only on my first chicken.

Does anyone think there is any significance to the fact that the mothers of Tyrion, Dany and Jon (assuming R+L=J) all died giving birth to them? I suppose dying in childbirth was pretty common in that era, but still, it just seems odd. 

[Lord Varys]

Aint Nuthin But A HoundDog,

I consider this as a possible hint that Daenerys, Jon Snow, and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon from the promised prince prophecy, whatever that may mean. I don't think it is accidental that the mothers of all those children died in childbirth, this clearly is intentional. Other mothers are absent/dead, too, but, for instance, Minisa Whent did not die during the birth of any of her children who survived infancy.

Dany of course has the additional divine omen of being born in the night of one of the worst storms in living memory, and gains herself the sobriquet 'Stormborn' even infancy.

Another hint is that all three also might have been children of rape (Dany certainly is, Rhaegar supposedly raped Lyanna, too, and Aerys II may have raped Joanna if Tyrion is actually his bastard), but that certainly has less evidence for it.

[SFDanny]

Just want to say welcome, Aint Nuthin But A HoundDog! Good to read contributions from West Virginia. I think both you and LV have the right of it. It's not an accident, and it likely is symbolic of the ties between the three main characters. Why Martin chose this as part of their common experience I don't know, but it's a good observation to keep in mind as we learn more.

A fan of Elvis's or Big Mama Thornton's version? Or both? 

[Ygrain]

am not sure I am following. We know Starfall thinks Wylla to be the mother -- and everyone knows Jon was brought back from the South -- so Ned could not separate himself and Jon from the South. I think everyone knows Jon was born in the South -- in Dorne. That is why Wylla and Ashara are the leading candidates. And the most likely time for Ned to have a conversation with Robert in which Wylla's name in mentioned is their reconciliation when Ned travels from Starfall -- to KL -- and then to Winterfell. And Jon must have been with Ned for that trip because there is a line about Ned arriving at Winterfell with Jon and the wetnurse. 

As far as "get lucky" -- again even under your scenario there is luck. The luck in that scenario is that Ned walks into a situation where someone else has already claimed to be Jon's mother and cannot be proven not to be Jon's mother. Walking into such a cover story looks pretty lucky to me. Ned could not have guaranteed it -- and it gave him the perfect situation where Robert ended up with a name that could not be disproved -- a lot of luck in my book.

As far as notifications -- i get them as numbers appearing next to the bell at the top of the page whenever someone quotes me.

My apologies - I mean South as in, south-South, Dorne. And no, I am in no way sure that people know anything about the "Dornish connection". The Ashara gossip has enough substance without Ned being seen with Jon. Ashara had a baby, a Stark was somehow involved, Ashara committed suicide at the time of Ned's visit, Ned has a bastard son - case closed, or so it would seem.

With Wylla, it gets a lot trickier, because we have several separate sources with different degree of knowledge and certainty:

 We have the young Dayne who "knows" that Wylla is Jon's mother and is at Starfall. We have Robert who thinks Wylla is the mother but never mentions Dorne, and from Ned's response to him, it seems that the story he fed Robert was that he had cheated on Cat during the war, while she was pregnant with Robb, and that would be before he went to Dorne. Plus, unless he made up a story about how he met Wylla elsewhere and reunited with her at Starfall nine months later, he couldn't conceive Jon during his trip to Dorne and bring him along on the way back. Robert thinks that Wylla must have been special but never mentions anything about "them hot Dornish chicks", only that Wylla was commonborn. The latter fact is in concord with the other Winterfell rumour of Jon's parentage, that he is a son of a commonborn woman, but we never hear the name Wylla, nor any mention of her being Dornish, nor does anyone ever point out that Jon has no Dornish features at all. Finally, we have Cersei. speculating about Ashara as the mother, or some uknown Dornish peasant, which might seem to imply that Cersei is aware of the Dornish connection, but Cersei is also dead wrong on the age of Ashara's child (if conceived at HH) as well as the lack of fighting in Dorne.

Besides, if Jon's Dornish origin is widely known, I can't wait to read GRRM's explanation why no-one ever thought about R+L, because until I do, I claim "plothole".

BTW, do you think that Ned might have totally skipped the ToJ location and claimed that he had found Lyanna elsewhere?

 

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

Ygrain,

it is completely unclear from what region Wylla actually is, or how she connected to Ned.

Ned's story that he fathered Jon Snow only after his marriage to Catelyn can work if Jon Snow only begins to exist officially about nine months after Ned's own marriage. This is easily imaginable since we don't know how much time Ned actually spent in Dorne, how long it took him to return to KL, and how much time he spent there. But we know that Cat only went to Winterfell after Robb was born, and possibly only some time thereafter since one expects that she may also have attended Robert's wedding in KL - Ned most likely would have. Not to mention that Ned and Robert's shared grief may have taken awhile, and Robert could easily have insisted that Ned keep his army south while they were preparing to take Dragonstone from Viserys III.

The only problem with that would be that Lyanna's son most likely is quite a bit older than 'Jon Snow, the son of Eddard Stark' officially is (we don't know how much, but technically Rhaegar could have gotten Lyanna pregnant the very first time they had intercourse), but this could be worked out by letting as much time as possible between Jon's alleged birth date and the revelation of his existence. With the whole crap about bastards growing faster and all this could easily work.

This would have the additional benefit for Ned to tell Robert his story about Lyanna and get closure on that front long before any rumor about Eddard Stark's bastard began to circulate. A good way to keep those two events separate and thus obscure the truth. Only if the bastard pops up pretty much at the same time as the news about Lyanna's death reach everyone would it be very difficult to obscure things.

Cersei being ignorant on any of those things is not necessarily surprising or a problem. She only came to KL for her wedding, any details on the Rebellion would have reached her much later as hearsay, and she most likely couldn't care less about anything that had to do with Eddard Stark. That guy would have been a nobody from the North at this point in time.

Wylla being connected in any official capacity to Starfall would endanger the whole thing, though. But if Wylla was actually a woman trusted by Ned rather than Rhaegar/Lyanna/the knights at the tower or the Daynes things would be much more safe even if Ned chose to drop her there.

The idea that Wylla was taken from the South up to Winterfell and then back to Starfall, on the other hand, is pretty strange since that would clearly draw a lot of interest to that woman. Commoners don't travel much, and most certainly throughout the whole Realm and back.

[purple-eyes]

IMHO, Wylla was a wet nurse KG hired from local village around TOJ when lyanna was in pregnancy. She was not from starfall. 

Then she traveled with ned and jon to starfall after TOJ battle. 

There ned claimed wylla is the mother of jon, then he claimed that he could not bring wylla to winterfell because catelyn would be angry.

Then he left wylla in starfall so she became a servant of dayne and after a few years nursed little edric. 

Ned hired a new wet nurse and went to north with jon. He of course did not want to bring wylla with him to winterfell because wylla may reveal information about jon to catelyn. 

It is better to hire a new wet nurse who knew nothing about Jon. 

I feel this is the most likely situation. 

 

But I am wondering how much gold ned gave wylla to make her silent for so many years! Must be a fortune! :)