R+L=J v.156

[purple-eyes]

Personally, I think Rhaegar changed his mind about the prophecy at the tourney when he discovered Lyanna Stark as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were immediately attracted to each other when he discovered her changing under the weirwood, he probably said something super suave, she probably tried to hit him, he probably caught her arm and kissed her, then, as a gentleman should, engaged her with the coitus. After which they probably professed undying love, he told her to be careful and watch out for his dad cause he's crazy, she was probably like, ok, and then she went and did her thing and he went back to the king and was like no one was out there. At some point they hatched a plan to run away together, because 1. Lyanna's a wolfblooded, stubborn, teenage, Stark girl, and 2. Rhaegar is a young man in his early 20's with a wife who can't bear him anymore children, Lyanna is one of the beauties of the 7 kingdoms, Rhaegar is obsessed with prophecy and after discovering Lyanna probably became convinced that the fulfillment of the marriage pact between the Starks and the Targaryens may be an important element in the fulfillment of prophecy and ushering in the birth of TPTWP. This is all just pure speculation but I am absolutely 100% certain it played out, mehhhh, something like this. Rhaegar's not a bad guy, he just made a bad, or good depending on the way you look at it, decision. But in Rhaegar's defense, he had no idea that his father would kill the LP of the North and his eldest son and heir. He probably knew there would be a huge uproar, and he'd have to smooth some feathers, but I don't think he anticipated it spiraling out of control as quickly or as catastrophically as it did.

Sounds very possible.
Especially that "engaged her with the coitus" part. :)
No wonder Lyanna had to miss rest of tourney competition.

[Ser Creighton]

Just curious but on the prophetic aspect of Rhaegar's story, does anyone think the tree played a part? Martin picked that sigil for a reason. It doesn't generally make me think of Lyanna or Howland. The North? Sure. The Old Gods? Yep, Bloodraven? No question. Ghost? Yeah the puppy too. From a prophetic aspect, the way visions of the future tend to be shown is via images while the past tends to be literal.

 

The Weirwoods have such a heavy connection to the the prophetic aspects of the story. I can't say if Rhaegar was like other Targs and had these visions and dreams, but he was at Lannisport when Maggie was there. Sometimes Martin introduces very little things in the story that are minor clues about the future. In early and mid thrones we get the Unsullied and Meereen.  Lets say Rhaegar, Maggie, Bloodraven or the Ghost has a part here, a prophecy, a vision, a dream, one of them saw a weirwood. Now maybe it was about Lyanna, maybe it was Bloodraven, I mean the man can enter dreams, maybe he put the image in his head. It's tough to say, but what if it was the sigil that draws his original interest? That is the kind of imagery that Martin employs in visions.

 

If you think about it, Rhaegar would probably have little intention of following his crazy fathers command. You know find my enemy the mystery Knight is out to get me, he is my super secret enemy. Rhaegar probably would of rolled his eyes, yeah sure got it another scary is out to get you, I'll get right on that.

 

As for Dany and Drogo not being a love story. No but there was love, Dany fully admits it, it's not a contemporary relationship but that is where Martin took it. It's kind of like life is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you gonna get. Now personally I think Forrest and his mom were idiots, because generally when you get a box of chocolate, you are getting chocolate. That is what is in a box of chocolates. Hell you can even go to one of the many candy stores and pick out exactly what you want. I mean how does a box of chocolates actually represent the random nature of life. Like you open up a box of turtles and there are actual turtles in there? Or a damn squirrel jumps out and latches onto your face. Or maybe a bus magically drives out of the box and runs you over, or maybe the chocolates are armed and they rob you. Maybe the chocolates are cannibals and they are eating each other, until there is one big fat chocolate left and then it eats you. You know what? It's a stupid saying, it should be life is like a Dothraki wedding, you never know how fucked up it's going to get. Oh look my name is Gump and it is raining random good luck all the time. Oh goody gum drops life is like a box of chocolate all sweet and tasty and basically the same and not really random at all.

 

Ok I'm done, I'm done. I hate that movie. If I keep going then will end up with the Road Runner, and really just shoot that fucking bird. How about a Cartoon called hey kids have unrealistic expectations and the universe will bend to your will while, intelligence, science, physics and math are useless.

[Lord Varys]

John Courage,

 

that is not supported by the time line. Harrenhal was prior to Prince Aegon's birth, and the vision from the House of the Undying, if true, shows us that Rhaegar still believed Aegon was the promised prince after Aegon's birth. He is talking about him in the vision, and he definitely talks to Elia, not Lyanna.

 

In that sense, it is flat out impossible that Lyanna said or did anything at Harrenhal that changed Rhaegar's view on the prophecy. In fact, he could not even be sure that his future child with Elia - she would already have been in the early stages of her pregnancy at Harrenhal - would even be the promised prince prior to Aegon's birth. The feature that convinced Rhaegar that this child might be the promised prince was the comet above KL in the night of Aegon's conception. But he couldn't be sure about all that prior to his birth - which revealed that he was a healthy boy. A girl would never have been considered as the potential savior at this point.

 

Unless something else happened between Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone sometime after Aegon's birth and the abduction of Lyanna there is little reason to assume that a Targaryen-Stark union played any role in the whole prophecy stuff. It may turn out to be as easy as Rhaegar deciding to have additional children with Lyanna because he fell in love with her rather than something as convoluted as Rhaegar suddenly considering that Stark blood was important for the whole savior-making thing. Had that been the case he would never have believed Aegon was the promised prince in the first place. Not to mention that there is also no reason to assume that Harrenhal provided Rhaegar with other means to reinterpret the prophecy. I mean, all that would have happen there is that he met Lyanna and fell in love with her. That is an important emotional development but nothing that gives you a better insight in prophecy stuff. If the prophecy included lines hinting at a Stark-Targaryen match - say, something about a union of ice and fire - then one would assume that Maester Aemon, Aegon V, Jaehaerys, Aerys II, and Rhaegar would have been aware of those lines decades ago, and they would have come up with this interpretation shortly thereafter, eventually arranging a marriage between a Targaryen princess and a Stark girl. Rhaegar would have been most likely betrothed and eventually married to Lyanna Stark.

[Alia of the knife]

Personally, I think Rhaegar changed his mind about the prophecy at the tourney when he discovered Lyanna Stark as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were immediately attracted to each other when he discovered her changing under the weirwood, he probably said something super suave, she probably tried to hit him, he probably caught her arm and kissed her, then, as a gentleman should, engaged her with the coitus. After which they probably professed undying love, he told her to be careful and watch out for his dad cause he's crazy, she was probably like, ok, and then she went and did her thing and he went back to the king and was like no one was out there. At some point they hatched a plan to run away together, because 1. Lyanna's a wolfblooded, stubborn, teenage, Stark girl, and 2. Rhaegar is a young man in his early 20's with a wife who can't bear him anymore children, Lyanna is one of the beauties of the 7 kingdoms, Rhaegar is obsessed with prophecy and after discovering Lyanna probably became convinced that the fulfillment of the marriage pact between the Starks and the Targaryens may be an important element in the fulfillment of prophecy and ushering in the birth of TPTWP. This is all just pure speculation but I am absolutely 100% certain it played out, mehhhh, something like this. Rhaegar's not a bad guy, he just made a bad, or good depending on the way you look at it, decision. But in Rhaegar's defense, he had no idea that his father would kill the LP of the North and his eldest son and heir. He probably knew there would be a huge uproar, and he'd have to smooth some feathers, but I don't think he anticipated it spiraling out of control as quickly or as catastrophically as it did.

In terms of Martin's use of "irony" and fate, (and I do think they were fated), I always speculated that Lyanna and Rhaegar just missed one another when he wasn't married, which makes all the " if only" claims by Viserys, Dany,Cersei, and Kevan even more, well, ironic.

After not finding a suitable dragon girl, and before the ruling lady of Dorne one-upped Tywin when he turned down her children, I wonder if they planned to look around the kingdom for his bride, purely speculating of course.

[Alia of the knife]

John Courage,
 
that is not supported by the time line. Harrenhal was prior to Prince Aegon's birth, and the vision from the House of the Undying, if true, shows us that Rhaegar still believed Aegon was the promised prince after Aegon's birth. He is talking about him in the vision, and he definitely talks to Elia, not Lyanna.
 
In that sense, it is flat out impossible that Lyanna said or did anything at Harrenhal that changed Rhaegar's view on the prophecy. In fact, he could not even be sure that his future child with Elia - she would already have been in the early stages of her pregnancy at Harrenhal - would even be the promised prince prior to Aegon's birth. The feature that convinced Rhaegar that this child might be the promised prince was the comet above KL in the night of Aegon's conception. But he couldn't be sure about all that prior to his birth - which revealed that he was a healthy boy. A girl would never have been considered as the potential savior at this point.
 
Unless something else happened between Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone sometime after Aegon's birth and the abduction of Lyanna there is little reason to assume that a Targaryen-Stark union played any role in the whole prophecy stuff. It may turn out to be as easy as Rhaegar deciding to have additional children with Lyanna because he fell in love with her rather than something as convoluted as Rhaegar suddenly considering that Stark blood was important for the whole savior-making thing. Had that been the case he would never have believed Aegon was the promised prince in the first place. Not to mention that there is also no reason to assume that Harrenhal provided Rhaegar with other means to reinterpret the prophecy. I mean, all that would have happen there is that he met Lyanna and fell in love with her. That is an important emotional development but nothing that gives you a better insight in prophecy stuff. If the prophecy included lines hinting at a Stark-Targaryen match - say, something about a union of ice and fire - then one would assume that Maester Aemon, Aegon V, Jaehaerys, Aerys II, and Rhaegar would have been aware of those lines decades ago, and they would have come up with this interpretation shortly thereafter, eventually arranging a marriage between a Targaryen princess and a Stark girl. Rhaegar would have been most likely betrothed and eventually married to Lyanna Stark.

But going back to the "human heart" themes, I wonder if the pact "suddenly" became important upon meeting Lyanna?

Bad men need no justification to do bad things, but good men do....

[Alia of the knife]

Just curious but on the prophetic aspect of Rhaegar's story, does anyone think the tree played a part? Martin picked that sigil for a reason. It doesn't generally make me think of Lyanna or Howland. The North? Sure. The Old Gods? Yep, Bloodraven? No question. Ghost? Yeah the puppy too. From a prophetic aspect, the way visions of the future tend to be shown is via images while the past tends to be literal.
 
The Weirwoods have such a heavy connection to the the prophetic aspects of the story. I can't say if Rhaegar was like other Targs and had these visions and dreams, but he was at Lannisport when Maggie was there. Sometimes Martin introduces very little things in the story that are minor clues about the future. In early and mid thrones we get the Unsullied and Meereen.  Lets say Rhaegar, Maggie, Bloodraven or the Ghost has a part here, a prophecy, a vision, a dream, one of them saw a weirwood. Now maybe it was about Lyanna, maybe it was Bloodraven, I mean the man can enter dreams, maybe he put the image in his head. It's tough to say, but what if it was the sigil that draws his original interest? That is the kind of imagery that Martin employs in visions.
 
If you think about it, Rhaegar would probably have little intention of following his crazy fathers command. You know find my enemy the mystery Knight is out to get me, he is my super secret enemy. Rhaegar probably would of rolled his eyes, yeah sure got it another scary is out to get you, I'll get right on that.
 
As for Dany and Drogo not being a love story. No but there was love, Dany fully admits it, it's not a contemporary relationship but that is where Martin took it. It's kind of like life is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you gonna get. Now personally I think Forrest and his mom were idiots, because generally when you get a box of chocolate, you are getting chocolate. That is what is in a box of chocolates. Hell you can even go to one of the many candy stores and pick out exactly what you want. I mean how does a box of chocolates actually represent the random nature of life. Like you open up a box of turtles and there are actual turtles in there? Or a damn squirrel jumps out and latches onto your face. Or maybe a bus magically drives out of the box and runs you over, or maybe the chocolates are armed and they rob you. Maybe the chocolates are cannibals and they are eating each other, until there is one big fat chocolate left and then it eats you. You know what? It's a stupid saying, it should be life is like a Dothraki wedding, you never know how fucked up it's going to get. Oh look my name is Gump and it is raining random good luck all the time. Oh goody gum drops life is like a box of chocolate all sweet and tasty and basically the same and not really random at all.
 
Ok I'm done, I'm done. I hate that movie. If I keep going then will end up with the Road Runner, and really just shoot that fucking bird. How about a Cartoon called hey kids have unrealistic expectations and the universe will bend to your will while, intelligence, science, physics and math are useless.

Hi SC! :)

I've always wondered that about BR, and makes me think that is a bit "grey" because that is somewhat of a violation, almost what Bran does with Hodor.

I've always wanted to pull the bench out from under Forest, though I loved Captain Dan.

[Lord Varys]

Well, since things go like this

 

1. Comet in the night of Aegon's conception.

 

2. The Tourney of Harrenhal. Rhaegar and Lyanna meet.

 

3. Aegon is born, Elia barren, and Rhaegar concludes/proclaims that Aegon is the promised prince.

 

one should assume that Rhaegar would decide to father the promised prince on Lyanna back at Harrenhal and never actually believe that Aegon could be the promised prince if part of the prophecy actually supported an ice-fire union or a Targaryen-Stark union to conceive the promised prince. In fact, nothing suggests that prophecy foretold such a thing literally or figuratively. Else people would have figured that out a long time ago.

 

It might be that Rhaegar received a new prophecy from the Ghost or something like that, but the ancient scrolls known to Marwyn, Aemon, Melisandre, Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella, Jaehaerys etc. wouldn't have foretold anything like that.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I have stated my theory before regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna getting together, but given all of this back and forth on whether Rhaegar is black/white/gray/etc. I think it worthwhile to lay out my thoughts again and let others respond, if they wish:

 

1. Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal. They are intrigued by each other, but Lyanna is engaged to Robert and Rhaegar is married to Elia. They do not believe anything can come of their attraction/admiration. I believe that Rhaegar met Lyanna in connection with her being KotLT. He crowns her in recognition of her skills as KotLT, knowing she has no other way to be recognized for her abilities -- and because he is intrigued by her. They assume that would be the end of their connection.

 

2. Aegon is born and Rhaegar believes his son is TPTWP -- and tells Elia as much and that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads (I believe that the vision in HotU is an accurate display of an actual conversation between them -- but the statement about there needing to be one more because the dragon has three heads was a "hidden" message to Dany -- which she understands basically correctly).

 

3. Elia is told she can have no more children.

 

4. Rhaegar realizes that if the dragon has three heads, and if he is going to be father to the three heads of the dragon (as I think he believed), then he will need to have a third child with another woman. Maybe he explains this issue to Elia and maybe not -- not sure. If he explained it to her, I think she would reluctantly understand given that I think she knows his views regarding the prophecy.

 

5. Rhaegar leaves KL with his companions. I am not sure if the purpose was to figure out what to do about the third head -- or whether he already had a plan to go after Lyanna for the third head -- or some other reason entirely. I suspect he did not have a firm plan in mind yet -- but not sure.

 

6. Rhaegar and his group go to riverlands. Maybe he encounters the woods witch there -- or maybe not -- but if he did, she might have told him something that leads him to believe he will have a child with Lyanna -- maybe even TPTWP.

 

7. Rhaegar and his group encounter Lyanna. I am not sure if this encounter was pre-arranged between Rhaegar and Lyanna or just a "lucky" coincidence. I tend to think it was pre-arranged because Rhaegar likely would  not take her against her will -- but maybe if the woods witch convinced him that he had to he might have. If it was pre-arranged, I have not really worked out how it could have been, but that issue gets admittedly fuzzy in this analysis (cannot really work out every detail given the information given to the readers).

 

8. Rhaegar and Lyanna spend time together and "fall in love" and get married. Lyanna does not want to be married to Robert when she is in love with Rhaegar, and Rhaegar convinces her that Elia will be a wife in name only (as she cannot have any more children and they were never in love in any case), and he will be faithful to Lyanna. I think Rhaegar and Lyanna decide that they need to stay in hiding until she has a child to increase the likelihood that Aerys (and the Starks) would accept the marriage. As a back-up plan, if the polygamous marriage is not accepted by Aerys, they likely would have to go into exile (as happened to Maegor) -- probably with Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as well. Lyanna understands that Rhaegar believes their child will at a minimum be the third head of the dragon or MAYBE, that Rhaegar realizes that Lyanna is Ice to his Fire and their son will be TPTWP (he never would have considered such a thing before finding out that Elia was unable to have another child because he never would have considered having a third child with anyone else prior to that news).

 

9. Rhaegar and Lyanna learn of the deaths of Rickard and Brandon and the start of the war too late to do anything to help the situation -- so they stay in hiding and stick to their original plan.

 

10. The rest is fairly well accepted (not 100% but by the vast majority) that Rhaegar leaves a pregnant Lyanna at ToJ and he is killed in battle and she dies from complications after giving birth to Jon (although there certainly are differences of opinion regarding the time period between birth of Jon and death of Lyanna).

 

Whether this version of events (assuming accurate -- which of course, it might not be) makes Rhaegar a good guy or a bad guy is up to personal judgment. I think, like many characters, Rhaegar meant well but made some serious mistakes in judgment. Of course, if no one in the series ever made mistakes in judgment, there would be no story. So Rhaegar is a gray character just like most of the other characters in the series.

[purple-eyes]

I have stated my theory before regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna getting together, but given all of this back and forth on whether Rhaegar is black/white/gray/etc. I think it worthwhile to lay out my thoughts again and let others respond, if they wish:
 
1. Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal. They are intrigued by each other, but Lyanna is engaged to Robert and Rhaegar is married to Elia. They do not believe anything can come of their attraction/admiration. I believe that Rhaegar met Lyanna in connection with her being KotLT. He crowns her in recognition of her skills as KotLT, knowing she has no other way to be recognized for her abilities -- and because he is intrigued by her. They assume that would be the end of their connection.
 
2. Aegon is born and Rhaegar believes his son is TPTWP -- and tells Elia as much and that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads (I believe that the vision in HotU is an accurate display of an actual conversation between them -- but the statement about there needing to be one more because the dragon has three heads was a "hidden" message to Dany -- which she understands basically correctly).
 
3. Elia is told she can have no more children.
 
4. Rhaegar realizes that if the dragon has three heads, and if he is going to be father to the three heads of the dragon (as I think he believed), then he will need to have a third child with another woman. Maybe he explains this issue to Elia and maybe not -- not sure. If he explained it to her, I think she would reluctantly understand given that I think she knows his views regarding the prophecy.
 
5. Rhaegar leaves KL with his companions. I am not sure if the purpose was to figure out what to do about the third head -- or whether he already had a plan to go after Lyanna for the third head -- or some other reason entirely. I suspect he did not have a firm plan in mind yet -- but not sure.
 
6. Rhaegar and his group go to riverlands. Maybe he encounters the woods witch there -- or maybe not -- but if he did, she might have told him something that leads him to believe he will have a child with Lyanna -- maybe even TPTWP.
 
7. Rhaegar and his group encounter Lyanna. I am not sure if this encounter was pre-arranged between Rhaegar and Lyanna or just a "lucky" coincidence. I tend to think it was pre-arranged because Rhaegar likely would  not take her against her will -- but maybe if the woods witch convinced him that he had to he might have. If it was pre-arranged, I have not really worked out how it could have been, but that issue gets admittedly fuzzy in this analysis (cannot really work out every detail given the information given to the readers).
 
8. Rhaegar and Lyanna spend time together and "fall in love" and get married. Lyanna does not want to be married to Robert when she is in love with Rhaegar, and Rhaegar convinces her that Elia will be a wife in name only (as she cannot have any more children and they were never in love in any case), and he will be faithful to Lyanna. I think Rhaegar and Lyanna decide that they need to stay in hiding until she has a child to increase the likelihood that Aerys (and the Starks) would accept the marriage. As a back-up plan, if the polygamous marriage is not accepted by Aerys, they likely would have to go into exile (as happened to Maegor) -- probably with Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as well. Lyanna understands that Rhaegar believes their child will at a minimum be the third head of the dragon or MAYBE, that Rhaegar realizes that Lyanna is Ice to his Fire and their son will be TPTWP (he never would have considered such a thing before finding out that Elia was unable to have another child because he never would have considered having a third child with anyone else prior to that news).
 
9. Rhaegar and Lyanna learn of the deaths of Rickard and Brandon and the start of the war too late to do anything to help the situation -- so they stay in hiding and stick to their original plan.
 
10. The rest is fairly well accepted (not 100% but by the vast majority) that Rhaegar leaves a pregnant Lyanna at ToJ and he is killed in battle and she dies from complications after giving birth to Jon (although there certainly are differences of opinion regarding the time period between birth of Jon and death of Lyanna).
 
Whether this version of events (assuming accurate -- which of course, it might not be) makes Rhaegar a good guy or a bad guy is up to personal judgment. I think, like many characters, Rhaegar meant well but made some serious mistakes in judgment. Of course, if no one in the series ever made mistakes in judgment, there would be no story. So Rhaegar is a gray character just like most of the other characters in the series.

Excellent love story!
You make rhaegar not "grey" at all! In your version he is As White as Arthur's sword. 

(Because for everything he did you found good reason for him. I really can not see any reason why he would feel any conflict of heart in all these scenarios. He did everything correct and justly and dutiful in your version)
But I am so glad that you are not GRRM. :)

[purple-eyes]

Oh, for those of you who are so into that rhaegar is a shinning Romeo of westeros and secret second marriage is as firm as a fact, you must really wish rhaegar said this to to Jaime in his dream:
I left my first wife and children in your hand.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Excellent love story!
You make rhaegar not "grey" at all! In your version he is As White as Arthur's sword. 

(Because for everything he did you found good reason for him. I really can not see any reason why he would feel any conflict of heart in all these scenarios. He did everything correct and justly and dutiful in your version)
But I am so glad that you are not GRRM. :)

He still decides to marry a second woman and leave his wife behind while he goes off and has a child with Lyanna. He still decides to stay in hiding even though a war is raging and his family is doing battle. Sure, he might have his reasons for making these decisions, but his judgment still is not perfect and his decisions still have negative repercussions. 

 

But are you stating that if the eventual reveal is more or less as I have outlined, that you will be disappointed in GRRM? If so, why? As I have stated over and over again, I just want an interesting story. What do you think would make the story more interesting? Or is "more interesting" not your standard? And if not, what is?

[purple-eyes]

He still decides to marry a second woman and leave his wife behind while he goes off and has a child with Lyanna. He still decides to stay in hiding even though a war is raging and his family is doing battle. Sure, he might have his reasons for making these decisions, but his judgment still is not perfect and his decisions still have negative repercussions. 

 

But are you stating that if the eventual reveal is more or less as I have outlined, that you will be disappointed in GRRM? If so, why? As I have stated over and over again, I just want an interesting story. What do you think would make the story more interesting? Or is "more interesting" not your standard? And if not, what is?

 

In your own post you just gave perfect reasons for him to "marry a second woman and leave his wife" (true love and save the world and also wife's permission) and "decide to hide when there is a war" (know nothing about the war until it is too late, then can not do anything except continuing hiding. seriously? even arianne had seven ravens with her along her long trip).

I did not see you put him into any negative point. You are trying to tell us Rhaegar did everything in this way because he had to do it iin this way, no other choice. 

Do you agree if we can use at least "reckless, irresponsible and arrogant" to describe him?

[IceFire125]

 

In your own post you just gave perfect reasons for him to "marry a second woman and leave his wife" (true love and save the world and also wife's permission) and "decide to hide when there is a war" (know nothing about the war until it is too late, then can not do anything except continuing hiding. seriously? even arianne had seven ravens with her along her long trip).

I did not see you put him into any negative point. You are trying to tell us Rhaegar did everything in this way because he had to do it iin this way, no other choice. 

Do you agree if we can use at least "reckless, irresponsible and arrogant" to describe him?

 

Thank you for confirming your thoughts to all of us in plain words.

 

You REFUSE to rationalize and understand his actions.  You just want him in a negative light.

 

And that's up to you. But don't sit there typing like your convictions have any bearing on our interpretations.

 

GRRM doesn't write without purpose.  He gives each of his characters from the most innocent to the most evil, purpose of their actions, whether those actions are inherently evil/gray/stupid or wise/righteous/smart.  It is up to us, his readers to interpret those actions.  There is no right or wrong in the clearest of lines, unless he makes it so.

[MtnLion]

At some point they hatched a plan to run away together, because 1. Lyanna's a wolfblooded, stubborn, teenage, Stark girl, and 2. Rhaegar is a young man in his early 20's with a wife who can't bear him anymore children,

It seems pretty clear that Elia delivered her second child some (about) nine months after the Tourney at Harrenhal.  Would Rhaegar dishonor Lyanna and his wife at Harrenhal?  I believe the opposite, that he gave the crown to Lyanna in respect for what she had done, but remained faithful to his wife.  Rhaegar was faithful until that day when he is told that Elia can have no more children.  That is during the months of winter that followed Harrenhal, and Rhaegar may have set off to have a sit down with Aemon, at the Wall before weather became really nasty.  It was probably complete happenstance that Rhaegar's and Lyanna's paths crossed near Harrenhal a year or so after the tourney. 

[purple-eyes]

 

Thank you for confirming your thoughts to all of us in plain words.

 

You REFUSE to rationalize and understand his actions.  You just want him in a negative light.

 

And that's up to you. But don't sit there typing like your convictions have any bearing on our interpretations.

 

GRRM doesn't write without purpose.  He gives each of his characters from the most innocent to the most evil, purpose of their actions, whether those actions are inherently evil/gray/stupid or wise/righteous/smart.  It is up to us, his readers to interpret those actions.  There is no right or wrong in the clearest of lines, unless he makes it so.

 

Hey, it is somebody in your camp said that Rhaegar had negative thing firstly. 

Then I said based on his/her post, it does not seem that he/she thought Rhaegar had negative thing. 

 

By the way, Rhaegar of course had some negative thing with him. This is undeniable. 

Nobody can claim that he is completely wise and correct in all his actions. 

Just like you can not say Robb is wise and correct in all of actions. 

 

He still decides to marry a second woman and leave his wife behind while he goes off and has a child with Lyanna. He still decides to stay in hiding even though a war is raging and his family is doing battle. Sure, he might have his reasons for making these decisions, but his judgment still is not perfect and his decisions still have negative repercussions. 

 

But are you stating that if the eventual reveal is more or less as I have outlined, that you will be disappointed in GRRM? If so, why? As I have stated over and over again, I just want an interesting story. What do you think would make the story more interesting? Or is "more interesting" not your standard? And if not, what is?

[purple-eyes]

It seems pretty clear that Elia delivered her second child some (about) nine months after the Tourney at Harrenhal.  Would Rhaegar dishonor Lyanna and his wife at Harrenhal?  I believe the opposite, that he gave the crown to Lyanna in respect for what she had done, but remained faithful to his wife.  Rhaegar was faithful until that day when he is told that Elia can have no more children.  That is during the months of winter that followed Harrenhal, and Rhaegar may have set off to have a sit down with Aemon, at the Wall before weather became really nasty.  It was probably complete happenstance that Rhaegar's and Lyanna's paths crossed near Harrenhal a year or so after the tourney. 

 

That is the crown for queen of love and beauty. 

Not a crown for knight of bravery and honor. 

Elia probably would rather Rhaegar date and sleep with Lyanna secretly (or at least in a regular and normal way), rather than being publicly humiliated in front of the whole kingdom as a tool of her husband to woo and impress another young woman. 

 

In the whole ice and fire history, as far as we know, only two married men decided to give the crown to somebody other than his wife.

One is Aegon the unworthy. he wanted to crown his mistress. 

The other one is Rhaegar. He wanted to crown Lyanna. 

And they happened to show up in the same chapter for this crowning. 

[MtnLion]

 

 

You were talking about Robert not caring about the children he had fathered, that he allowed for Cersei to kill them. Yet Robert has shown interest in his bastard child from before the Rebellion. We're being told that he went to visit his daughter "long after" he had lost interest in the mother. Even years into his marriage with Cersei, she apparently was still on his mind. And that's all the information Lyanna had to go on. Robert had a bastard in the Vale, and depending on how long before the betrothal Mya had been born, she might even have been aware that Robert was willing to spend a lot of time with the girl despite no longer being interested in the mother. And she concludes, that "Robert will never keep to one bed". 

 

Fathering bastards before a marriage is one thing. Lyanna seems convinced that Robert won't stop sleeping around after they have been married. And that's what's bothering her, or so it seems with the little bit of info we have. Why exactly she feels that way, we are not told. Lyanna tells Ned that not even love can change a man's nature (imo, an suggestion that Lyanna knows Robert's personality, because having a bastard and not being faithful during a marriage are not the same things. As well, this might support what Lord Varys said earlier, that Lyanna and Robert most likely met each other at least once before their betrothal).

 

Since the timeline seems to be yours, let me address something that still bothers me about the timeline.  It seems that Mya is supposed to be born, and Robert's activities are known, when Lyanna (on the night that her betrothal is announced) talks with Ned at Winterfell. 

 

That night at Winterfell, Ned remembers holding Mya when talking with Lyanna.  Lyanna knows not just that he has a bastard daughter, but what Robert's proclivities are.  Robert has never been to Winterfell before visiting Ned to ask him to be Hand, so Robert did not meet Lyanna at Winterfell.  Noble daughters, especially attractive ones, are never allowed to travel without a family protector before their marriage.  And, prior to the Tourney at Harrenhal is (years) winter.  The likelihood that Lyanna had travelled to the Eyrie to meet Robert is about nil.  So, we get down to when could Lyanna have observed Robert's behavior, to know him so well, before the announcement of her betrothal?  I maintain, and feel fairly optimistic that we will learn that Lyanna observed Robert at the tourney, and that the betrothal was at Winterfell, during the (months) of winter that followed the tourney. 

 

Your statements, above, lend a great deal of credence to this sequence.  That Lyanna observed Robert at the Tourney at Harrenhal.  That Lyanna heard the rumor of Mya at Harrenhal.  That Ned or Brandon carried Robert's offer of betrothal back to Rickard at Winterfell, where it was accepted and announced.  That the Starks all wintered at Winterfell, following the tourney. 

[Bael's Bastard]

While I think it is possible that Robert screwed around at the Harrenhal tourney, and that Lyanna could have heard about it, the World Book explicitly states that Robert and Lyanna were already long betrothed when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QOLAB.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

 

[Alia of the knife]

I have stated my theory before regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna getting together, but given all of this back and forth on whether Rhaegar is black/white/gray/etc. I think it worthwhile to lay out my thoughts again and let others respond, if they wish:
 
1. Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal. They are intrigued by each other, but Lyanna is engaged to Robert and Rhaegar is married to Elia. They do not believe anything can come of their attraction/admiration. I believe that Rhaegar met Lyanna in connection with her being KotLT. He crowns her in recognition of her skills as KotLT, knowing she has no other way to be recognized for her abilities -- and because he is intrigued by her. They assume that would be the end of their connection.
 
2. Aegon is born and Rhaegar believes his son is TPTWP -- and tells Elia as much and that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads (I believe that the vision in HotU is an accurate display of an actual conversation between them -- but the statement about there needing to be one more because the dragon has three heads was a "hidden" message to Dany -- which she understands basically correctly).
 
3. Elia is told she can have no more children.
 
4. Rhaegar realizes that if the dragon has three heads, and if he is going to be father to the three heads of the dragon (as I think he believed), then he will need to have a third child with another woman. Maybe he explains this issue to Elia and maybe not -- not sure. If he explained it to her, I think she would reluctantly understand given that I think she knows his views regarding the prophecy.
 
5. Rhaegar leaves KL with his companions. I am not sure if the purpose was to figure out what to do about the third head -- or whether he already had a plan to go after Lyanna for the third head -- or some other reason entirely. I suspect he did not have a firm plan in mind yet -- but not sure.
 
6. Rhaegar and his group go to riverlands. Maybe he encounters the woods witch there -- or maybe not -- but if he did, she might have told him something that leads him to believe he will have a child with Lyanna -- maybe even TPTWP.
 
7. Rhaegar and his group encounter Lyanna. I am not sure if this encounter was pre-arranged between Rhaegar and Lyanna or just a "lucky" coincidence. I tend to think it was pre-arranged because Rhaegar likely would  not take her against her will -- but maybe if the woods witch convinced him that he had to he might have. If it was pre-arranged, I have not really worked out how it could have been, but that issue gets admittedly fuzzy in this analysis (cannot really work out every detail given the information given to the readers).
 
8. Rhaegar and Lyanna spend time together and "fall in love" and get married. Lyanna does not want to be married to Robert when she is in love with Rhaegar, and Rhaegar convinces her that Elia will be a wife in name only (as she cannot have any more children and they were never in love in any case), and he will be faithful to Lyanna. I think Rhaegar and Lyanna decide that they need to stay in hiding until she has a child to increase the likelihood that Aerys (and the Starks) would accept the marriage. As a back-up plan, if the polygamous marriage is not accepted by Aerys, they likely would have to go into exile (as happened to Maegor) -- probably with Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as well. Lyanna understands that Rhaegar believes their child will at a minimum be the third head of the dragon or MAYBE, that Rhaegar realizes that Lyanna is Ice to his Fire and their son will be TPTWP (he never would have considered such a thing before finding out that Elia was unable to have another child because he never would have considered having a third child with anyone else prior to that news).
 
9. Rhaegar and Lyanna learn of the deaths of Rickard and Brandon and the start of the war too late to do anything to help the situation -- so they stay in hiding and stick to their original plan.
 
10. The rest is fairly well accepted (not 100% but by the vast majority) that Rhaegar leaves a pregnant Lyanna at ToJ and he is killed in battle and she dies from complications after giving birth to Jon (although there certainly are differences of opinion regarding the time period between birth of Jon and death of Lyanna).
 
Whether this version of events (assuming accurate -- which of course, it might not be) makes Rhaegar a good guy or a bad guy is up to personal judgment. I think, like many characters, Rhaegar meant well but made some serious mistakes in judgment. Of course, if no one in the series ever made mistakes in judgment, there would be no story. So Rhaegar is a gray character just like most of the other characters in the series.

I think this is a pretty good analysis.
It is consistent with the Authors themes and concerns.

The only place where I differ is that I don't think their meeting was pre-arranged because we have from two different sources that seem to be consistent with the notion there was armed conflict.

First from Canon, the text says by way of Dany that Lyanna was taken at swordpoint, and she probably got the cleaned up version.

Second, from the companion piece that says Rhaegar "fell upon" Lyanna. The vernacular of the time means to "attack."

[Lord Varys]

ML,

 

that theory is long dead. Lyanna and Robert could have gotten to know each other years ago in the Vale, while Ned and Robert were both Jon's wards and the Starks visiting Ned, Jon, and their cousins in Vale - long before the betrothal was made or even discussed. Ned would have been in the Vale - not the Eyrie, of course, but the Gates of the Moon - spending time with Robert and Jon when Mya was born in 279-80. Then he returned to Winterfell, arranged the betrothal on Robert's behalf, and Lyanna talked about Robert.

 

Lyanna and Robert were long betrothed at Harrenhal, and this was a publicly known fact, not some secret arrangement.

 

On the love story:

 

There is a good chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna actually had an sexual relationship at Harrenhal and decided to end it. We know that there were supposedly lots and lots of secret meetings and romantic stuff going on at Harrenhal, and Lyanna and Rhaegar would be the prime suspects. It is easily imaginable that they Lyanna ended it with similar arguments Dany is using when she breaks up with Daario in preparation of her marriage to Hizdahr. Rhaegar never loved or lusted after Elia, so the chances are pretty high that went as far as he could with Lyanna. And if she was in love with him, too, then there is little reason to assume that she resisted.

 

Lyanna ending the thing could also explain why there was an abduction. Another Dany parallel there. The question whether Lyanna is actually happy with all that is another matter. We have to consider the possibility that there was a very passionate secret affair going on at Harrenhal, Lyanna ended it, and Rhaegar couldn't get over that - or felt he had to have for 'prophecy reasons' later on - but Lyanna was fine with that. In that sense there is still a decent possibility that the Kingsguard were Lyanna's gaolers not her protectors, and the whole thing was less about 'true love' - or love at all - on Lyanna's part. Especially in light of Aerys' treatment of Lyanna's father and brother, and Rhaegar's later decision to stand at the side of his father and House Targaryen riding into war against the surviving members of her family. The war easily could have ended with the eradication of the male branches of House Stark, after all.