R+L=J v.156

[purple-eyes]

 

Yes but he was her rapist first.

 

He is not rapist by the standard of Westeros, I guess. 

Not even as bad as mad king. 

Who will call the rapist her "sun and star"?

[Mithras]

Who will call the rapist her "sun and star"?

 

Characters written badly.

[wolfmaid7]

 
I don't see a reason to doubt Lyanna's own words on the subject of Robert. The only thing we know from textual evidence was that she felt wariness about Robert's character. She did not seem to be happy about the prospect of marriage to him. 
 
I don't see any reason to doubt Ned when he told Robert "you didn't know her". Robert saw her beauty but didn't know her personality. I didn't get the sense that Robert had gotten to know Lyanna very well at all. No doubt Robert had met Lyanna because she was the sister of his best friend/foster brother, but that doesn't mean he had more than a superficial knowledge of Lyanna. Even if Robert hadn't met Lyanna before the match, I'd reckon the idea of marrying the sister of his best friend and daughter of one of the highest lords would have been appealing, even sight unseen. The fact that Lyanna was beautiful was icing on the cake.  I also had the impression that Jon Arryn may have played a part in arranging the marriage of Robert and Lyanna, so it's not like Robert was completely on his own. 
 
As far as personalities, we know that Robert was impulsive and pledged love to everyone he bedded and then dumped them afterwards, according to his best friend Ned. Ned always thought the best about people, but I think Lyanna had a better understanding of what Robert would be like as a husband. And if Lyanna and Robert were more alike, that would have been disastrous, in my opinion. 

What exactly did Lyanna say? She expressed concern omly that Robert wouldn't keep to her bed right? That's basically it.When did she and Ned have this conversation? The night she found out about her bethrothal right? From the time she found out to when she disappears they been engaged "at least" 3yrs most likely more.So Robert would have had to prove that statement right or wrong during the time they were together right.

How else would she Lyanna lay that claim against Robert if she wouldn't sleep with him if and when he wanted.You can't ....how else can he keep to one bed or not if she wasn't putting her pussy on the table. That would be crazy judging him for not keeping to one bed, if you aren't offering your bed for him to keep to or not.


The question then becomes how long would Robert who in his later years slept with a 15 yr old and got her preggers. Hold out from not making a move on the woman he's engaged to.What do you think Lyanna would do if he started kissing her, playing with her nipples and shit?

Edit to change poster name.

By the way dont you all think, im just throwing it out it would be courtesy to discuss someone's essay in a mode they can reply? Im sure there's questions, there are things I didn't put in that im pretty sure I can give an answer to.

[IceFire125]

Did Robert allow it? We're not even told he knew of their existence, only that Littlefinger knew (since he tells the story0, that Cersei knew (since she ordered the hit), and that Varys might have known (they could have been 2 of the 8 Varys is aware of).

 

Robert can't react to something Cersei did, if he didn't know she did it. 

 

That's not the point.  He was whoring without the thought of consequences.  

 

What was Robert gonna do to Cersei for killing the twins if he did found out?? Slap her on the wrist? I doubt it would be something significant.  He knew it later if not sooner, he chose to ignore it.  Did he try to find the woman that was sold into slavery?? He didn't care.  That's the point that I think Lyanna wanted to get across to Ned.

[wolfmaid7]

 
That's not the point.  He was whoring without the thought of consequences.  
 
What was Robert gonna do to Cersei for killing the twins if he did found out?? Slap her on the wrist? I doubt it would be something significant.  He knew it later if not sooner, he chose to ignore it.  Did he try to find the woman that was sold into slavery?? He didn't care.  That's the point that I think Lyanna wanted to get across to Ned.

Lyanna can't get that point across because at that moment in time that didn't happen. The only issue Lyanna had was if Robert would stay in her bed only.There was more than 3yrs for her to be proven correct and the only way to prove that was for her to allow him in her bed....That's the point.

Another note who Robert was before he put on the crown is not the same after we have a few people who knew him saying that. Still though he would not abide Cersie killing his bastards had he known.Had he been given proof.

Plus Cersie would be to smart to let that lead to her. Somebody would take that fall.

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't think there is anything in the books pointing to Robert and Lyanna ever fooling around, though that could certainly change in later books. It wouldn't shock me at all to find out that Robert later assaulted her. Or that "the wine did it."  And the idea that Lyanna's statement doesn't make sense unless she fooled around with Robert during the betrothal says it all about the minds coming up with these baseless alternate theories.

[Ygrain]

 

That's not the point.  He was whoring without the thought of consequences.  

 

What was Robert gonna do to Cersei for killing the twins if he did found out?? Slap her on the wrist? I doubt it would be something significant.  He knew it later if not sooner, he chose to ignore it.  Did he try to find the woman that was sold into slavery?? He didn't care.  That's the point that I think Lyanna wanted to get across to Ned.

He would close his eyes and turn away, just like he did the whole time. Then he would get drunk and forget all about it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

 

That's not the point.  He was whoring without the thought of consequences.  

 

What was Robert gonna do to Cersei for killing the twins if he did found out?? Slap her on the wrist? I doubt it would be something significant.  He knew it later if not sooner, he chose to ignore it.  Did he try to find the woman that was sold into slavery?? He didn't care.  That's the point that I think Lyanna wanted to get across to Ned.

You were talking about Robert not caring about the children he had fathered, that he allowed for Cersei to kill them. Yet Robert has shown interest in his bastard child from before the Rebellion. We're being told that he went to visit his daughter "long after" he had lost interest in the mother. Even years into his marriage with Cersei, she apparently was still on his mind. And that's all the information Lyanna had to go on. Robert had a bastard in the Vale, and depending on how long before the betrothal Mya had been born, she might even have been aware that Robert was willing to spend a lot of time with the girl despite no longer being interested in the mother. And she concludes, that "Robert will never keep to one bed". 

 

Fathering bastards before a marriage is one thing. Lyanna seems convinced that Robert won't stop sleeping around after they have been married. And that's what's bothering her, or so it seems with the little bit of info we have. Why exactly she feels that way, we are not told. Lyanna tells Ned that not even love can change a man's nature (imo, an suggestion that Lyanna knows Robert's personality, because having a bastard and not being faithful during a marriage are not the same things. As well, this might support what Lord Varys said earlier, that Lyanna and Robert most likely met each other at least once before their betrothal).

[UnViserion]

I'm of the belief that Rhaegar slept with 2 women.  Elia and Lyanna.
 
Rhaegar shared a bed with Lyanna, none others, after Elia was pregnant and birthed Aegon.
 
Even if Lyanna's criticism of Robert was hypocritical, it holds true, Robert was whoring himself for years after marrying Cersei.
 
Not only that, save for a few, he didn't care what happened to them after they were born.  He even allowed Cersei to kill twins born to him by a woman, as it was a slight to the Lannisters that Robert was whoring at her Father's tourney.
 
So were Rhaegar and Lyanna perfect? saints? No, but I believe they grew to love each other in their intimate and short time together.  We will just have to wait until TWOW is released to find out more about what happen.

The popular theory is that Lyanna would overlook Rhaegars marriage to Elia because it's a political union, and the only reason he was sleeping with her to begin with was to get an heir.
Now that she is rendered barren by Aegons birth, no need to share her bed.

Ok, so we can't even agree on that.

Aye yai yai ppl

[UnViserion]

And Alia,

Why do you gotta reduce both Elia and Lyanna to brood mares?

seriously, Elia was a person too. It wasn't her choice to be born frail and delicate.

[IceFire125]

 

 

You were talking about Robert not caring about the children he had fathered, that he allowed for Cersei to kill them. Yet Robert has shown interest in his bastard child from before the Rebellion. We're being told that he went to visit his daughter "long after" he had lost interest in the mother. Even years into his marriage with Cersei, she apparently was still on his mind. And that's all the information Lyanna had to go on. Robert had a bastard in the Vale, and depending on how long before the betrothal Mya had been born, she might even have been aware that Robert was willing to spend a lot of time with the girl despite no longer being interested in the mother. And she concludes, that "Robert will never keep to one bed". 

 

Fathering bastards before a marriage is one thing. Lyanna seems convinced that Robert won't stop sleeping around after they have been married. And that's what's bothering her, or so it seems with the little bit of info we have. Why exactly she feels that way, we are not told. Lyanna tells Ned that not even love can change a man's nature (imo, an suggestion that Lyanna knows Robert's personality, because having a bastard and not being faithful during a marriage are not the same things. As well, this might support what Lord Varys said earlier, that Lyanna and Robert most likely met each other at least once before their betrothal).

 

 

And very fortunate to those women to have their child be taken care of or even being considered by Robert.  The rest are left to themselves or of those that Jon Arryn wasn't able to find.

 

Ok, so we can't even agree on that.

Aye yai yai ppl

 

Lyanna was not perfect and a hypocrite, yes.  If she went along with Rhaegar knowing he was married, for the sake of trying to get away from her marriage with Robert, then she led him on to dishonor his wife, Elia.

 

In the act...

 

I am a man of the Night’s Watch, a small voice inside insisted, but every night it seemed a little fainter, and when Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother’s bed?

 

During their travels...

 

And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him … assuming she would go, which was far from certain … well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

**Where did Rhaegar stand? Keep Lyanna or let her go (knowing her heart be cut out--be killed by his Father), yet Rhaegar knew by keeping her, he couldn't bring her back to KL, he realized both of them together would not be welcomed anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Later after realizing the consequences...

 

You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

 

**This could also mean both Jon and Rhaegar were both married (pledged) to the Night's Watch and Elia respectively, and subtly layered by GRRM with Rhaegar marrying 'Lady Stark'.  Both felt guilty for loving another and left the former, Ygritte for Jon and Lyanna for Rhaegar.

[purple-eyes]

And Alia,

Why do you gotta reduce both Elia and Lyanna to brood mares?

seriously, Elia was a person too. It wasn't her choice to be born frail and delicate.

 

In the eyes of Alia, only Rhaegar and Lyanna have "true love". 

With the name of "true love", the world should revolve around them. 

Everybody else is either Robert or Robot.

[IceFire125]

 

In the eyes of Alia, only Rhaegar and Lyanna have "true love". 

With the name of "true love", the world should revolve around them. 

Everybody else is either Robert or Robot.

 

Get over it.  Rhaegar was fond of Elia, but he did not love her in the equivalence of his desire and love for Lyanna.

 

“Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?”

[purple-eyes]

 

Get over it.  Rhaegar was fond of Elia, but he did not love her in the equivalence of his desire and love for Lyanna.

 

“Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?”

 

Sure, love can conquer the world. 

O, love, what cheatings are committed in thy name! 

 

By the way, singer's songs are quite unreliable in this ice and fire world. 

If you mean the singers said: (Rhaegar) play you the high harp, keep you in a tower with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song"

you are likely to be disappointed. 

TOJ is surely not a typical story about "harp-prince and jewel-princess". 

 

Blue rose petals are pretty, but the thorns underneath are quite ugly and painful. 

[Lord Varys]

Actually, I doubt that there is any truth to this murder of Robert's twins at Casterly Rock. Not that Cersei wouldn't be capable of that, it is just that we only have Petyr as a source that those bastard twins existed and that they were killed on Cersei's command. I don't think he invented them from scratch - although he could he have - I just think he pins their deaths on Cersei without having any evidence for that. They may have died a natural death if they existed at all. After all, if Littlefinger knew about Cersei's involvement there Robert most likely would have known, too, and I think it is a little bit far-fetched to assume that he would allow his wife to murder his own blood.

 

Lyanna shows both a disillusionment about love (suggesting that she never was deeply in love with anyone before that, or perhaps sobered up about Robert of whom she still could have been 'fond') as well as a certain unrealistic expectation what a marriage in Westeros should be. Women effectively don't have the right to expect that their husbands stay faithful to them. Men are in charge of everything, and women can't do anything about that.

 

The striking thing about her eventual affair with Rhaegar is that she actually shared the bed with a man who also practiced Robert's flaw of not keeping himself to one bed. True love or not, Rhaegar was cheating on Elia by entering into a relationship with Lyanna - regardless whether he married her or not.

 

The best way to make sense of that is that Lyanna really got carried away by what she felt for Rhaegar at Harrenhal - presumably her and Rhaegar's hormones running amok, something they both never experienced before. This could explain their actions up until the abduction, but then things simply don't make any sense.

[Alia of the knife]

 

The way you are addressing this question is sort of annoying (to be honest).

 

Its not  my theory, nor one that I necessarily buy into, though its possible. I was explaining what the popular theory was.

 

 

My opinion is that Rhaegar and Elia would sleep together because it was their duty, as it would have Renlys duty to sleep with Margaery. Its what Medieval aristrocracy DID.

And if Rhaegar could actually remember at what point Aegon was conceived, then it sounds as if they slept together very little.

 

I never argue from the standpoint that someone else may be wrong, but only that there might be another possibility and understand ENTIRELY that I myself could be wrong. You seem to be taking this way too personally, personally attacking others whose viewpoints you don't like.

 

At least some on this board go after GRRM himself. It's arrogant but at least its honest.

 

Rhaegar and Elia might have had a congenial relationship and he did like her as opposed to Prince Daemon who hated his Royce wife and that was the most a medieval wife, common or noble could hope for. Love did sometimes blossom between couples as in Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, and as it did in the example of Ned and Cat, but textually apparently did not between Elia and Rhaegar.

 

As for esoteric Rhaegar and brothels, he sounds as if he might be awkward or uncomfortable at a party much less a brothel.

[Rippounet]

A bit OT but...

Yes but he was her rapist first.

He wasn't. Drogo never raped Dany. Yes, it was an arranged marriage, and she was apprehensive at first, but her chapters clearly showed she was willing to engage in marital sex. Dany even later develops a taste for this kind of man (surely, I'm not the only one who noticed the similarities between Drogo and Daario?). In fact, while she had her fears and misgivings (who wouldn't?), nothing in her chapters ever suggests that Drogo wasn't to her taste, quite the opposite in fact. What she didn't like, and didn't want, was the role of a submissive/passive wife who would only be her husband's sextoy/breeding mare ; as soon as she got that sorted out, true love blossomed.

The confusion comes from the -very poor- choice of the show to portray the start of Dany&Drogo's marriage differently. In the books, by the time they marry, Dany is no longer a scared and shy little girl, thanks to a dragon dream, but has already taken her first steps on her "fire and blood" journey. She eventually grows to become a true khaleesi, and may even become the greatest of all quite soon (as per visions and foreshadowing).

 

If we have to compare this to the topic (R+L), there is every reason to believe that Lyanna was willing to marry Robert. Yes, she doubted Robert's potential faithfulness. Was this enough to run away with another man? Based on her characterization so far (as an honorable and proud woman), I say this was not. She must have had another reason to follow Rhaegar, at least initially. And Rhaegar's motivations in abducting her remain a mystery (politics, prophecy, love and lust are the candidates, but the text doesn't permit us to say for certain which it was).

Yes, love makes people do crazy things, but the noblemen and noblewomen and Westeros are not prone to run away from arranged marriages, which they see as part of their duty and life. Yes, Lyanna was a bit wild, but she does not come across as someone who would throw away her family, her honor, and her duty without good reasons.

Whatever the "popular" theory is, it completely ignores the basic rules of Westerosi society that are well detailed throughout the books. Did Rhaegar and Lyanna eventually fall in love? Yes. Did they elope? There is very little to suggest that, and several elements that go against it, so it's opened to interpretation and debate.

The feeling I get is that the popular "love theory" of R+L conflates a number of events (Harrenhal, the abduction, and the time spent at the ToJ), when in fact they are separated by significant lengths of time. Not that this isn't understandable since the text is written to confuse the reader, and several in-world characters assume that love was the primary motive. But the beginning of R+L remains mysterious, so it's prudent to assume there were a number of factors we are yet to discover.

 

[Alia of the knife]

And Alia,

Why do you gotta reduce both Elia and Lyanna to brood mares?

seriously, Elia was a person too. It wasn't her choice to be born frail and delicate.

 

And hey, do you "gotta" reduce the conversation down to such simplicity? And no, Elia is a fictional character as is Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

 

GRRM who minored in history said himself that he referenced the fourteenth century for his sources, as well as the traditional classics he grew up on like "The War of the Roses," the story of King Arthur and Ivanhoe, Shakespeare, Faulkner and Tolkien. I would not be at all surprised if Moorecock was not an influence.

 

All writers start from something, taking or rejecting bits and pieces, melding and making the story their own.

 

Fourteenth century, European and British nobility very seldom married for love, though couples could come to a congenial understanding, which is why the notions of mistresses was not so out of the ordinary so long as it was treated with discretion. There was the double standard regarding wives taking lovers because of the importance of knowing that the blood flowing through the intended heirs veins belonged to the very titled and powerful, biological father.

In a time when land and power were the pillars of society, a bloodline-obsessed nobility had to be sure the land and name they were passing off to an heir truly belonged the biological father.

 

For a Queen, infidelity often meant death because it was considered treachery.

 

 

"The books reflect a patriarchal society based on the Middle Ages. The Middle Ages were not a time of sexual egalitarianism. It was very classist, dividing people into three classes. And they had strong ideas about the roles of women. One of the charges against Joan of Arc that got her burned at the stake was that she wore men’s clothing—that was not a small thing. There were, of course, some strong and competent women. It still doesn’t change the nature of the society."  - GRRM

 

 

While "brood mare" is a bit harsh, the reality is, that was what they did. And they could also be legally beaten.

 

 

 

 

In the eyes of Alia, only Rhaegar and Lyanna have "true love". 

With the name of "true love", the world should revolve around them. 

Everybody else is either Robert or Robot.

 

Alia also sees someone taking fictional characters and using them as a receptical for their own personal angst.

 

 

"I have always agreed with William Faulkner. He said the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I've always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing. I mean, you can have a dragon, you can have a science fiction story set on a distant planet with aliens and starships, you can have a western about a gunslinger, or a mystery novel about a private eye, or even literary fiction- and ultimately you're still writing about the human heart in conflict with itself. So that's the the way I try to approach this this thing.  And while I've worked within a genre, I've never liked to be bound by them. " George R. Martin, The Atlantic interiviewed by Rachael Brown, July 2011.

 

 

 

"Marriage was a form of political alliance. It was a way to cement a political alliance – one of the ways to bind to families together and hopefully make peace between them or to establish that… they would be allies against a third common enemy. You didn’t want your sons or daughters, if you were a lord, marrying for love. That was, that was insane… If you had a vassal whose loyalty you questioned, maybe you married him to one of your daughters and thereby bind him more closely to the family. If you have a rival you’d been at war with and now you make peace, you marry a daughter to his son…”“-GRRM

[Lord Varys]

Dany is raped multiple times during her marriage. Not necessarily the first time - although that clearly qualifies as child abuse following our standards - but in-between her wedding and her first dragon dream.

 

Marital rape is actually quite common in Westeros, especially in those arranged marriages. Countless wives should have no interest whatsoever in ever having sex with their husbands, but they are forced to suffer through it anyway. They don't have a choice. Just ask Lysa whether she ever wanted to have sex with that walking corpse Jon Arryn. And it is quite clear that Cersei had no interest whatsoever to ever have sex with Robert again following that dreadful first time.

[Rippounet]

Very OT now...

Dany is raped multiple times during her marriage. Not necessarily the first time - although that clearly qualifies as child abuse following our standards - but in-between her wedding and her first dragon dream.

Marital rape is actually quite common in Westeros, especially in those arranged marriages. Countless wives should have no interest whatsoever in ever having sex with their husbands, but they are forced to suffer through it anyway. They don't have a choice. Just ask Lysa whether she ever wanted to have sex with that walking corpse Jon Arryn. And it is quite clear that Cersei had no interest whatsoever to ever have sex with Robert again following that dreadful first time.

 

Did a quick re-read. Dany is way more scared in Dany II that I remember, though she clearly says "yes" in the end.

After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine.

[...]
He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

Dany II

 

I counted this as a dragon dream:

Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. "You woke the dragon," he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon." Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …

Dany II

But it doesn't help her a much as I thought it did. She keeps repeating she is "blood of the dragon" though. Guess I'm interpreting a little here.

 

After the wedding we have this;

 

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Dany III

So though it's always hard to type it: yeah, I was wrong on this one (there's no way to say this isn't marital rape).

 

Still think the show messed up the first night though, which slightly changes how you view the other nights imho.