UnViserion Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Scratch 100% dutiful off the list, or add for the most part in frond of it. Also, there are examples of him being not dutiful, like not taking up arms training when he should, or perhaps not being a dutiful son or kidnapping the Warden of the North's daughter. I don't see falling in love unrealistic or contrived, particularity given his arranged wife. keep in mind no one in these books are exactly as they seem. the characters we know are complicated and fallible Ironically, Barristan Selmy was the one who called him dutiful. It stays. Not taking up arms at a young enough age? That's kind of a stretch. He eventually did and become quite good at it. Not being a dutiful son? No evidence, other than the theory that he was plotting to depose his deranged father (which would have been dutiful, in a sense). Kidnapping or consensually running off with a LP's daughter? Absolutely NOT dutiful. *edit: or honorable, intelligent, kingly, etc. The characters are complicated and fallible. Rhaegar and Lyanna falling in 'love' after one tourney is not complicated and extremely suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I don't really get how the notion of love as ONE of the motivators is "weak," or bad writing. It is consistent with human behavior and the reason for many a fall from grace. There is a reason why we are still reading Romeo and Juliet and why a lot of the crap written today will be forgotten. However it plays out Martin's only responsibility is to tell HIS story and tell it well. I don't think love is a weak aspect of any story, I do think it has not been as well established as prophecy in the text. Like nobody in the text who knows about Rhaegar and prophecy is like "What Rhaegar and prophecy? What are you talking about?" At the same time Vaserys who mentions love lacks the credibility of someone like Aemon and his talk of prophecy. Same with Selmy who is a very popular character, but this seems to be a true statement "Ser Barristan is a valiant knight and true; but none, I think, has ever called him cunning" Selmy wasn't close with him and Viserys aside from being a child at the time is still Viserys. While Aemon has got letters and is well established as intelligent and insightful. I don't think a love story is a weak idea at all, but so far of three it has the least text support. But that doesn't mean that lasts either, there are still more books to go. I know it has been popular to mention that Martin always wanted to write a love story. Which he actually already has, though it was depressing "A song for Lya." Now of course something like that ties well to Lyanna who shares the same name. Though that was about her and a guy named Rob. I also recall that in the treatment Martin was writing a love story but that was about Jon and Arya. You know Martin is very careful with his relationship as in how Lyanna and Rhaegar related with his story. Lyanna was his lady love, I am not sure it was in Lyanna to love. Meera with her helmet and the KotLT. The end of the tale is a sad one, well that can go a lot of ways. It hints at both Howland and Lyanna the two suspected of wearing that Helmet. Is it about that girl in a helmet defending someone like Jojen a frog man, is it because it's a Reed Helmet? If it is such a painful story why are the Reeds be shocked the Starks did not know it? So while I have zero objection to the idea of a love story, I also except that Martin has held this aspect of the mystery closer to his chest in the text. I think there are some hints about it but also some detraction's and I think that is exactly how Martin wants it. I am currently doing a Sun and Moon parallel with Rhaegar and a person I think is part of his inspiration. The character in question was a great lover, but could also be indifferent. He is very Targaryen, which reminds me I should get back to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Do we know the whereabouts of Barristan Selmy during the time Rhaegar spent @ the ToJ? In AdwD Selmy says something to the effect of Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, so I disagree with some of the above statements. I think we can safely assume that Selmy had intense knowledge, and personal judgements about the history of the KG, e.g., Criston Cole. I think its safe to assume he would've fled to Dragonstone if I had been a part of Viserys's KG. And if I had to guess, he knows Danny has a long lost half-bro out there. we know he and Eddard held each other (AND Rhaegar) in highest regards. If this has been discussed could someone list the forum, thanks. During the Rebellion, as far as we've been told, Barristan is known to have been in King's Landing during the Rebellion, as well as in the riverlands to gather the remains of Connington's army, and in the riverlands for the Battle of the Trident. If he went anywhere else during the rebellion, we've not been told. I do think that Barristan and Rhaegar both spent some time in King's Landing after Rhaegar returned "from the south". How long is atm impossible to say, as we don't know when exactly Rhaegar returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Depending on how long the Tourney of Harrenhal lasted, Rhaegar and Barristan might have spent more time together before riding to the Trident than Lyanna and Rhae Rhae spent together before eloping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Rhaenys, the Targaryens on Dragonstone had built a sept, and supposedly adorned it with idols made from wood from the ships that carried them there (although that actually sounds a lot like a pious lie - the Targaryens had no reason to dismantle their ships since they grew to wealth and power through trade thereafter). But there is no hint that they actually were pious. Gyldayn subtly questions that by stressing that Aegon was no pious man which makes it likely that his visit to the castle sept before the Conquest was nothing but a political ploy to win the support of the Faith (or rather not antagonize it). Aegon later went to great lengths to show proper devotion in public acts to all the High Septons ruling throughout his reign (six, I believe). But there is no hint that any of the Targaryen siblings - or their children and grandchildren - were religious or even pious in any meaningful sense of the word. Rhaenys was sensual free-spirited woman, Visenya a stern and unwomanly warrior as well as a reputed sorcerer. Aenys dabbled in alchemy, and Maegor we don't even have to mention. Granted, we know too little about Aegon, Rhaena, and Viserys to make a decision there, but Jaehaerys and Alysanne would have been too smart and well-educated to fell for religious stuff. And despite the fact that Barth was a septon, he most likely wasn't a believer, either. The Faith only seems to have been his way to get an education considering his humble origins. Jaehaerys and Alysanne deciding to hand over two of their daughters to the Faith seems to be more a way to get them out of the way to keep the succession simpler than because they were driven by their piety. And with Maegelle they apparently made the right choice, but one really wonders what made they decide to force Saera into a motherhouse, too. The Targaryens up to the Dance don't look very pious, either. The first one to take the stuff really seriously is the befuddled Baelor, and his charisma draws at least Rhaena into the clutches of the Faith as well. But without the dragons religion would have begun to play a much bigger role in keeping the smallfolk and the lords down, and subsequently the Faith may have received more power over the minds of the princes (especially prominent during the reigns of Baelor and Daeron II - to Maekar the High Septon actually seems to be a guy you can talk to about your private issues). O, I wasn't trying to make the point that the Targaryens were pious or anything. You stated that polygamy was already illegal in Westeros prior to the Conquest. I can't recall any source for that, and thus I asked whether or not the Vale and the Stormlands already followed the Faith of the Seven at the time of the Conquest, as from both Kingdoms the offer of a third wife was made to Aegon. If both Kingdoms followed the Faith of the Seven at that time already, them suggesting polygamy might imply that it was not outlawed before the Conquest, but simply something that was no longer practised. And if the Targaryens already followed the Faith of the Seven before the Conquest, they might have had a septon as well, right? At the moment, though, I can't recall whether it was Aegon I who converted to the Faith prior to the Conquest, or his ancestors already had converted to the Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Well, Barristan actually met Aegon V, Duncan the Small, Jaehaerys II, Queen Shaera, and Prince Daeron personally. His memories are much more credible than anything Yandel is writing, especially on the hidden motivational layers of the royal family. His knowledge about Jaehaerys-Shaera could come directly from the king himself, not the secondary and tertiary sources Yandel would be drawing from. Not liking characters because they know stuff and don't agree with you is childish and stupid. Back to Rhaegar: The whole Lyanna thing also becomes a distasteful and unpleasant affair if you stress the prophecy angle too much. Lyanna then becomes just a brood mare to make the savior or one of the savior's companions/the third dragon head. In my book it is rather sick to (mainly) enter into a sexual relationship because prophecy demands it. Rhaegar would be using and exploiting Lyanna's genuine feelings for him - if she had any - to some degree. Such a behavior would make him a very unsympathetic character by definition. It wouldn't be a real love story, it would be that love is part of another bigger story, and perhaps even only the means to an end. But then, even if he was deeply in love with her and prophecy only played a little role in there (it played some role, that has been already established) he still behaves like an ass by deflowering and soiling her, making her his whore (even if he married her, she would just be his second wife, the one he took for lust, a person to be looked down upon as 'the (future) queen who should never have been'). And, of course, he also publicly humiliated Elia in the process, regardless whether she was in on the whole plan and completely okay with being set aside in favor of a new and fertile wife. Elia of Dorne would have been effectively discarded, and could never play the role she was entitled to as the wife of the Prince of Dragonstone - that is becoming the sole Queen of Westeros by the time her husband ascended the Iron Throne. This is a great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Rhaenys, Maegor states in 'The Sons of the Dragons' that 'the scriptures of the Faith may rule lesser men but not the blood of the dragon' when the High Septon denounces his marriage to Alys as 'sin and fornication'. That indicates that the Seven-pointed Star and/or other holy books of the Faith forbid/outlaw polygamy. Maegor does not refer to the specific pro-Ceryse biased High Septon and his divine insights as Voice of the Seven on earth, he specifically mentions the scriptures. Considering that marriage is a religious matter in Westeros the view of the Faith is clear now. Religious scriptures/law forbade it, and there was no reason for Jaehaerys or anyone else to draw up a law against polygamy because it was religious matter anyway. The king could not possibly change the word of divine revelation and rewrite the bible of the Faith on the polygamy issue. Not even Maegor demanded that. And with marriage not being a matter of the state/Crown no king could either have allowed or outlawed it - which wasn't necessary anyway because the Faith had already outlawed it. Subsequently those doctrines of the Faith remained in effect as they had always been with the sole exceptions of Aegon and Maegor - that is, strictly speaking only the case of Aegon and his sisters because the Faith apparently always opposed and never condoned Maegor's many wives, even after he took the Iron Throne (it happens that we only have the details on the Alys marriage). And Aegon can actually construed to be 'sort of monogamous' because Rhaenys died rather early in his reign, and Visenya's son was only born after her death. Sure, there would have been intercourse with both wives before that and all, but Maegor was only born when Visenya was his only wife. And then he lived out the remaining 27 years of his reign and life monogamously. Not to mention that Aegon may have married his sisters the Valyrian way, too. I expect that Maegor had at least a septon present when he married the black brides - Visenya could have officiated again at the Maegor-Tyanna match in 42 AC. George has said that Aegon got all those offers from Argilac, Sharra Arryn, and Manfred Hightower because he already practiced polygamy which sort of had opened the gates for additional brides. Not to mention that the Stormland and Vale offers came before/during the Conquest when there were still different kingdoms and where part of plans to make alliances. Not to mention that all plans may have included or aimed at the possibility of setting aside Visenya/Rhaenys because of their apparent infertility - only Sharra seems to have guessed the truth that the Conqueror may have been the infertile guy because she offered Ronnel as his heir (a thing she wouldn't necessarily have done if she expected to give birth to Aegon's children during their marriage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Scratch 100% dutiful off the list, or add for the most part in frond of it. Also, there are examples of him being not dutiful, like not taking up arms training when he should, or perhaps not being a dutiful son or kidnapping the Warden of the North's daughter. I don't see falling in love unrealistic or contrived, particularity given his arranged wife. keep in mind no one in these books are exactly as they seem. the characters we know are complicated and fallible This and the fact the ones who tell us this are the most biased or have ulterior motives where the Targs are concerned, (and honestly not people I'd want speaking up for me): - Jaime - Cersei -Tywin -Jorah That Selmy is actually privately judging the Targaryens and is the only one critical of Rhaegar, but who also liked him, makes the case for me that Selmy sees someone who falls somewhere between good and bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 This and the fact the ones who tell us this are the most biased or have ulterior motives where the Targs are concerned, (and honestly not people I'd want speaking up for me): - Jaime - Cersei -Tywin -Jorah That Selmy is actually privately judging the Targaryens and is the only one critical of Rhaegar, but who also liked him, makes the case for me that Selmy sees someone who falls somewhere between good and bad. I disagree with that. Selmy seems to think the world of Rhaegar. And you left Ned off the list, who confirms Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love & married... by never coming remotely close to actually confirming it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I disagree with that. Selmy seems to think the world of Rhaegar. And you left Ned off the list, who confirms Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love & married... by never coming remotely close to actually confirming it. Yes Selmy does, which I think I said if he could both admire and be critical of Rhaegar, it means that Rhaegar is as grey as every other character in the book. You can like someone, but stil be critical of their actions whereas the others on that list either had ulterior motives, (Jorah), or were "awe struck" like Jaime and Cersei, and to some degree, Tywin as well. Edit: As for Ned, I'm going to need more context before I take his silence as an assumption of approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I have a question, you guys know that Jon got his comet right? Not the red comet but Tycho Nestoris? Tycho was a famed astronomer who witnessed the great comet of 1577 sometimes called the Tycho comet? And Nestoris is a play on Nestorianism the separation of Jesus from his human and divine aspects. A wonderful star appeared in the south-east in the first month of winter: it had a curved bow-like tail, resembling bright lightning, the brilliancy of which illuminated the earth around, and the firmament above. This star was seen in every part of the west of Europe, and it was wondered at by all universally. The great winter comet? The Tycho comet? You guys know this right? It could be for Stannis, it's not a real comet and Martin sometimes does that, by the name being hidden like that suggests otherwise. Anyway if you are interested yes Jon has a comet. Which kind of goes along the non literal symbolism of the bleeding star in his stabbing scene. The name is basically synonymous with Great winter comet resurrection, you know in a series with a famous comet rebirth in book one? It's a clue. About Jon. Basically confirming his rebirth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Edit: As for Ned, I'm going to need more context before I take his silence as an assumption of approval. As we all should! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriath Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 But wouldn't Varys know if Jon was Rhaegar's son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 But wouldn't Varys know if Jon was Rhaegar's son? Not unless someone told him. Varys has an impressive spy network, but he's not omniscient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 There's a Robert + Lyanna essay on the last hearth. I...I... am at a loss for words... A new level has been reached. Apparently there is evidence that Robert and Lyanna were having sex and that Robert was faithful to her...and what not... I seem to recall Robert fucking whores when he was in Stoney Sept??? Anyway :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 There's a Robert + Lyanna essay on the last hearth. I...I... am at a loss for words... A new level has been reached. I hope you will do something really nice for your brain, after putting it through that :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 But wouldn't Varys know if Jon was Rhaegar's son? No, but there no reason to believe schemers like he and LF haven't considered it. With the amount of hypothetical credit and foresight some ppl give them itd be shocking if they didn't at least suspect. Edit- but they really wouldn't have any way of proving it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr8zeppelin Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 How long was Lyanna with Rhaegar for after the tourney at Harrenhal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 How long was Lyanna with Rhaegar for after the tourney at Harrenhal? She wasn't with him at or immediately after Harrenhal. Around a year or so after Harrenhal she was 'abducted'. Around 4-6 months after she was abducted Hightower was sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him to come back. We don't know how long Hightower took to find them, or how quickly Rhaegar returned. Our best guess is that Lyanna was with Rhaegar for 6-10 months, starting about 12 months after Harrenhal. But everything is rather fuzzy, timewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 There's a Robert + Lyanna essay on the last hearth. I...I... am at a loss for words... A new level has been reached. Apparently there is evidence that Robert and Lyanna were having sex and that Robert was faithful to her...and what not... I seem to recall Robert fucking whores when he was in Stoney Sept??? Anyway :bang: Well he has a bastard from when he was fostered in the Vale. So I think they are full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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