Arakan Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Who's "proof" is more accurate the Russians or the Turks? Does anyone buy Russian claims their aircraft never went into Turkish airspace?sorry scot but Turkey's role in the Syrian conflict is too shameful. Erdogan clearly wanted to play strongman. If there was a violation of airspace it was too minor to provoke such a crisis. Maybe Erdogan just wants to destroy every chance of US/French/Russian cooperation in Syria. Turkey under the islamist Erdogan is a liability for the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 At the moment it looks like a game of chicken gone wrong. I totally belive that the Russian airforce is dumb enough to violate Turkish airspace after warnings and the Turkish airforce is dumb enough to shoot down a plane for a fleeting incursion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 I have no expertise in reading radar data. Does anyone who does have any insight about what we've been presented so far?I don't know that such expertise would help here -- the Russians have one set of data, the Turks have another and you'll simply have to pick one. I suppose the US government will know the truth, but it would be really surprising if they did not support Turkey on this one.That said, even if the purported violation occurred, Turkey's response is very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The Turks routinely violate Iraq's airspace to bomb the Kurds and sometimes even send ground forces into Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Maybe Erdogan just wants to destroy every chance of US/French/Russian cooperation in Syria.I think that's a reasonable assumption. Turkey, together with the Saudis and some others, has been the chief instigator of anti-Assad rebellion and one of the main supporters and suppliers of various groups fighting in Syria. They provided training, arms, and money to "moderate" opposition and ISIS-affiliated groups alike. Now they probably fear a possible rapprochement between Russia and certain Western factors over Syria and decided to do their best to sabotage those relations, at least for a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Arakan,I'm not claiming Turkey is the "good guy" here. I'm asking if the "we never violated Turkish airspace" is like "those unmarked troops in Crimea aren't Russians" or "Those Russian troops in the Donbass are on Holiday" or if the Turks are the ones making crap up instead of the Russians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrnosfe Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 ScottWhy should Turkey's claims be any more credible than those of the Russians? Are you displaying some bias here?Both are obviously serving their own interests.Well, we have discussed relations between Isis and turkey with you a year ago in another thread and there you had definite bias against turkey and sincerely believed turkey had supported isis. I'm sad to see you standing at the same point even after bombings inside turkey, Turkish shooting of Isis forces and Turkey arresting more than thousand Isis supporters. Not to mention arresting and deporting tens of thousands of fighters trying to infiltrate into syria. Suppose your media does not cover these?Erdogan may be islamist at heart but he is the head of a secular, democratic state and a Nato founding member. There is not much to discuss really. Please try to be objective regardless of your feelings about Muslims and accept that it is not possible for turkey to support isis openly or secretly. What turkey has not done up to now is actually invading Isis controlled Syria and Iraq, which even the mighty USA has not dared... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Putin responding live: claims the shootdown happened 4km inside Syria, calls it a "stab in the back by the accomplices of terrorism", accuses Turkey of protecting ISIS and says this incident has "serious implications" for Russian-Turkish relations.Bedtime where I'm at, have fun chewing over that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrnosfe Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Putin responding live: claims the shootdown happened 4km inside Syria, calls it a "stab in the back by the accomplices of terrorism", accuses Turkey of protecting ISIS and says this incident has "serious implications" for Russian-Turkish relations.Bedtime where I'm at, have fun chewing over that one.He definitely is clever. Turkish reaction was blunt and not calculated wisely. Putin will definitely use this to alienate the already alienated turkey even more. What in fact he was doing there was to block turkish & American safe zone from happening, isis was not there.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Well, we have discussed relations between Isis and turkey with you a year ago in another thread and there you had definite bias against turkey and sincerely believed turkey had supported isis. I'm sad to see you standing at the same point even after bombings inside turkey, Turkish shooting of Isis forces and Turkey arresting more than thousand Isis supporters. Not to mention arresting and deporting tens of thousands of fighters trying to infiltrate into syria. Suppose your media does not cover these? Erdogan may be islamist at heart but he is the head of a secular, democratic state and a Nato founding member. There is not much to discuss really. Please try to be objective regardless of your feelings about Muslims and accept that it is not possible for turkey to support isis openly or secretly. What turkey has not done up to now is actually invading Isis controlled Syria and Iraq, which even the mighty USA has not dared...Oh nice an AKP supporter fact is: Turkey is or was supporting terrorist groups in Syria, directly or indirectly. Fact is: Turkey CONSTANTLY violates Iraqi/Syrian airspace to bomb and kill the Kurds, the ones who are the most effective anti-IS fighters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrnosfe Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Oh nice an AKP supporter [emoji4]fact is: Turkey is or was supporting terrorist groups in Syria, directly or indirectly. Fact is: Turkey CONSTANTLY violates Iraqi/Syrian airspace to bomb and kill the Kurds. Ouch, I'm the farthest from it. Kurds are not the subject of this topic. Turkey has very funny failed attempts to create a mildly islamist force together with America and both have failed with forces scattering / joining isis / not being effective. However I from the beginning claim it is not possible for turkey to support isis as a state. Have you not witnessed bombings in Suruc, Ankara? Operations against Isis? How can you still claim that the state supports isis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Putin's comments at the UN a few months a go are starting to make more sense. One of the comments he made went along the lines of:"Do you think the West does not know who are the people buying the oil that Isis is smuggling out of Iraq and Syria? It is their own allies. I can even tell you the exact amounts."Putin was obviously referring to Turkey's involvement in the whole affair.If you think about it, really, where else can ISIS sell their oil?It can't go through Iran, who hates them. It can't go through Israel or Lebanon. If you look at the areas controlled by ISIS, and consider which countries can be reached directly by truck, without going through enemy held territory, then the only possible destination for their billion dollar oil smuggling operation is Turkey.The buyers must be in Turkey. This is not rocket science.Turkey is therefore directly allowing the funding of ISIS. And probably profiting from it at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Pretty much, FNR. None of this is exactly secret. And all this coming from a NATO member and one of the chief US allies in the region. This whole "War on Terror" shtick going back some 15 years is becoming an ever increasing joke. If it really is what its name wants us to believe, it must be the most ineffectual and counterproductive war in memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Fuck Erdogan and Putin. Can't the two assholes get in a cage a fight/fuck each other to death?The rest of the world would be far better off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 If you think about it, really, where else can ISIS sell their oil?It can't go through Iran, who hates them. It can't go through Israel or Lebanon. If you look at the areas controlled by ISIS, and consider which countries can be reached directly by truck, without going through enemy held territory, then the only possible destination for their billion dollar oil smuggling operation is Turkey.The buyers must be in Turkey. This is not rocket science.Turkey is therefore directly allowing the funding of ISIS. And probably profiting from it at the same time.It was never confirmed, but there is a strong base to believe, that one of the buyers is Asad's regime itself, some of it also goes to Jordan. Which of course doesn't change he fact, that a lot of ISIS' produced oil goes to Turkey as well. But you are aware, that the fact the oil from ISIS is sold to Turkey doesn't necessarily mean Turkish government supports this? In fact Turkey has done quite a lot in recent months to block smuggling routes of oil from ISIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Sure, hundreds of trucks carrying oil enter Turkey regularly without them knowing it... Really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 I'm really curious to see where that plane was when it was shoot down and to hear the recordings of controler's interactions with the pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 So, did anyone NOT see this shit coming from 18 thousand miles away?Too many cooks in the kitchen, running half ass Ops without a cohesive plan. This shit is a powederkeg just waiting to set off WW3. Some people never, ever, ever learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Sure, hundreds of truck carrying oil enter Turkey regularly without them knowing it... Really.Who said anything about not knowing? Why would they try to block smuggling routes if they didn't know about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 British Labour MP Skinner asked foreign secretary Hammond some pointed questions: Do you regard Turkey as a reliable ally in the battle against Isil? When you consider that not only today that they’ve shot down a Russian jet - who are also trying to fight Isil - they’re buying oil from Isil in order to prop them up, they’re bombing the Kurds who are also fighting Isil.Hammond's response, in a true obfuscatory fashion: I see old habits die hard and you remain an apologist for Russian actions. On the question of Turkey, Turkey is an important Nato ally. Yes, anyone who asks an uncomfortable and honest question is a Russian apologist. And the fact that Erdogan's Turkey is in NATO is all the answer one needs, apparently. Thank God Saudi Arabia isn't in NATO. One can only wonder what kind of official response we'd be getting then. (Of course, Saudis may as well be in NATO, but that's a topic for another time.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 You mean the Russians who keep dropping unguided bombs in urban areas?http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/syrians-are-paying-a-high-price-for-russia-s-cheap-bomb-1744082828 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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