The Heresy essays: X+Y=J- Howland + Lyanna=Jon

[Black Crow]

People sure are defensive of their hidden prince!  Folks, remember that the tone of these heresy threads is supposed to be higher and more respectful than the typical forum Team Stannis vs. Team Dany arguments.  You are in this thread to discuss the theory, not let the world know how stupid you think it is.

Indeed, while this is a"franchised" thread rather than a regular heresy one, I reckon the normal house rules should be adhered to:

All that we ask in heresy is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Indeed, while this is a"franchised" thread rather than a regular heresy one, I reckon the normal house rules should be adhered to:

All that we ask in heresy is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

Sure. Let's all adhere to the house rules. Not just the people who are questioning the theories in this (and the other franchised Heresy topics).

I've asked multiple times for textual references and support for the "heretical" ideas presented in these topics. Not once have I seen any.

 

[LmL]

I seriously doubt it. Seems to me that some people, in a feeble attempt to avoid answering those questions, resort to trying to police these heresy threads instead. I'm still waiting for all that "plenty, plenty" evidence that places Lyanna elsewhere.

Yeah, enough of the carping. Where's the beef? How long do we have to wait?

[LmL]

 

Sure. Let's all adhere to the house rules. Not just the people who are questioning the theories in this (and the other franchised Heresy topics).

I've asked multiple times for textual references and support for the "heretical" ideas presented in these topics. Not once have I seen any.

Instead, we get Wolfmaid bringing up the same non-textual objections, like supposing that roses cannot grow near the ToJ, which have already been thoroughly debunked. It's a bit maddening. How many times must it be said? ToJ = not in the desert, fertile area. Lyanna's rose petals = spilled from her hand black and dead. 

So that's the last we should hear about that argument, right? *sigh*

I love questioning orthodoxy - I've always been one to do so. I am Mr. "Azor Ahai is a bad guy," after all. But at a certain point, if you can't find text to support the heretical idea... then it's just idle speculation.  And the question remains with all of the ToJ questions Ygraine summarized - where's the text to support? Where's the multiple lines of inquiry generating different types of corroborating evidence? We're looking for symbolic and logistical evidence, just as we have oodles of for the RLJ theory. Where's the beef?

It's really not a personal thing, at all. It's not mean-spirited to scrutinize a theory and ask where the evidence is.  That's the standard process. Its not a conspiracy, it's not a vendetta or a witch-hunt.  It's not even loyalty to RLJ - it's a plain old case of "show me the money!" It's kind of pointless to put these essays up and then try to disqualify people's questioning of the theory because you don't like their tone. Just show the evidence already! 

[Ygrain]

I don't and have never claimed to know all the answers but a number of them are set out in my three Ronin essay.

A link, please? Or could we have a digest?

[Black Crow]

And here was me thinking you'd remember it 

 

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

 

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

 

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths or the blood red skies be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning, given that he was specifically responding to a question about the events.  That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

There’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar or even Aerys himself. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, but Hightower, Dayne and Whent remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

But not “here” and Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your Queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

There’s another interesting point here. We also know from the World Book that when Rhaegar died at the Trident, Aerys named his own second son Viserys as his heir in place of Rhaegar’s son Aegon. Its argued by some of those who believe that R+L=Jon Targaryen that the Kings Guard were protecting the true king – but that was Viserys and men whose last words repeatedly affirm their loyalty to Aerys are hardly likely to be rejecting his last orders.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions as to R+L=J it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne.  Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list.  But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

 

[Black Crow]

Sure. Let's all adhere to the house rules. Not just the people who are questioning the theories in this (and the other franchised Heresy topics).

I've asked multiple times for textual references and support for the "heretical" ideas presented in these topics. Not once have I seen any.

 

The reminder was issued impartially 

[wolfmaid7]

Its called critical thinking LML. Please show me where Dorne is known for having roses as flora.Besides citrus fruits and Pomegranates show me roses and flowers. 

So you think because Dorne is "fertile " they must have flowers and roses even though GRRM didn't mention them? He takes the time to have characters mention things like that so we know what is typical of what region those stuff are the clues. So keep your invisible Potpourri that's not mentioned anywhere. I'll continue to pay attention to clues and hints like that

I also second Black Crow's posts.Well put Papa Crow.

[kimim]

...

So you think because Dorne is "fertile " they must have flowers and roses even though GRRM didn't mention them?

...

GRRM has to offer a list of all the flora of Dorne for you to believe that there might be roses there?

I grew up in Turkey, spent time on the Aegean. This is pretty close to parts of Dorne, and yes, you can grow roses there. The area around toj is apparently fertile. Fertile implies flowers can be grown there. We'd need to know more about the climate and soil conditions to figure out if roses can be grown there, and if the blue winter roses of Westeros can be grown there. I'm very happy that GRRM doesn't go into deep descriptions of soil conditions, tbh. It'd make for boring reading if he did.

As for Lyanna's roses: They're black. Rotten. Old.

As for the smell in the room: omg. OK, this is so horribly unnecessary, but I'll go there. In the Middle Ages (that would be GRRM's world) they didn't have an understanding of germ theory, didn't know how infections worked, how diseases spread. They had a vague belief in "bad air," as the transmitter of various diseases and infections, and thought that if you could just sniff "good air," then you wouldn't catch a disease. This is why plague doctors in Italy would wear these weird outfits: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Paul_Fürst,_Der_Doctor_Schnabel_von_Rom_(Holländer_version).png

The "doc" would fill the beak portion with various herbs, leaves, flowers. These fragrances would change "bad air" to "good air," and would keep the doc from catching the plague. btw, the term "malaria," literally means "bad air." They knew nothing, but nothing about disease transmission.

Anyhow, this idea led to all manner of weirdness, where a midwife or a doctor wouldn't bother washing their hands before working on their patient, but might include all manner of good smells in the birthing room to prevent infection, via medicinal perfumes, candles, etc. Roses, in particular, were used to strengthen a patient, and prized as much for their medicinal value as for their beauty and fragrance  http://www.cloverleaffarmherbs.com/rose/

OK I can not believe I just had to do this. Anyway, that there is a smell of roses in Lyanna's room says nothing, but NOTHING, about the location of said room.

 

[LmL]

Its called critical thinking LML. Please show me where Dorne is known for having roses as flora.Besides citrus fruits and Pomegranates show me roses and flowers. 

So you think because Dorne is "fertile " they must have flowers and roses even though GRRM didn't mention them? He takes the time to have characters mention things like that so we know what is typical of what region those stuff are the clues. So keep your invisible Potpourri that's not mentioned anywhere. I'll continue to pay attention to clues and hints like that

I also second Black Crow's posts.Well put Papa Crow.

Critical thinking, LoL. 

Here's your quote, from The World of Ice and Fire.  I was pretty sure someone already cited this to you, but here it is again:

The more restless of the First Men pushed onward and made homes for themselves in the foothills south of the Red Mountains, where storms moving north were wont to drop their moisture, creating a fertile green belt.  Those who climbed farther took refuge amongst the peaks, in hidden valleys in high mountain meadows where the grass was green and sweet. 

1.) The Tower of Joy was not in the desert. It's where the Dornish Marches meet the red mountains and their fertile green belt of sweet green grasses. Flowers would not be a problem.  There is no issue here with Lyanna being at the ToJ.   

2.) Lyanna's flowers were black and dead where Ned found her.  They may have been months old. It could have even been her one year old rose laurel.  Ned's waking memory of Lyanna's bed of blood mentions only black and dead rose petals. Again, there is no issue here with Lyanna being at the ToJ.

 

 

[LmL]

GRRM has to offer a list of all the flora of Dorne for you to believe that there might be roses there?

I grew up in Turkey, spent time on the Aegean. This is pretty close to parts of Dorne, and yes, you can grow roses there. The area around toj is apparently fertile. Fertile implies flowers can be grown there. We'd need to know more about the climate and soil conditions to figure out if roses can be grown there, and if the blue winter roses of Westeros can be grown there. I'm very happy that GRRM doesn't go into deep descriptions of soil conditions, tbh. It'd make for boring reading if he did.

As for Lyanna's roses: They're black. Rotten. Old.

As for the smell in the room: omg. OK, this is so horribly unnecessary, but I'll go there. In the Middle Ages (that would be GRRM's world) they didn't have an understanding of germ theory, didn't know how infections worked, how diseases spread. They had a vague belief in "bad air," as the transmitter of various diseases and infections, and thought that if you could just sniff "good air," then you wouldn't catch a disease. This is why plague doctors in Italy would wear these weird outfits: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Paul_Fürst,_Der_Doctor_Schnabel_von_Rom_(Holländer_version).png

The "doc" would fill the beak portion with various herbs, leaves, flowers. These fragrances would change "bad air" to "good air," and would keep the doc from catching the plague. btw, the term "malaria," literally means "bad air." They knew nothing, but nothing about disease transmission.

Anyhow, this idea led to all manner of weirdness, where a midwife or a doctor wouldn't bother washing their hands before working on their patient, but might include all manner of good smells in the birthing room to prevent infection, via medicinal perfumes, candles, etc. Roses, in particular, were used to strengthen a patient, and prized as much for their medicinal value as for their beauty and fragrance  http://www.cloverleaffarmherbs.com/rose/

OK I can not believe I just had to do this. Anyway, that there is a smell of roses in Lyanna's room says nothing, but NOTHING, about the location of said room.

 

Thanks. I cannot believe anyone had to do this either. But that's where we are, nevertheless.  

[LmL]

And here was me thinking you'd remember it 

 

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream...

about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

 

 

 

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

 

 

 

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM

 

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

 

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

 

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

 

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths or the blood red skies be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning, given that he was specifically responding to a question about the events.  That then leaves Lyanna.

 

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

 

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

 

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

 

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

 

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

 

There’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar or even Aerys himself. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

 

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, but Hightower, Dayne and Whent remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

 

So let’s look at what happens:

 

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

 

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

 

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

 

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

 

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

 

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

 

But not “here” and Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

 

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

 

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

 

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

 

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

 

So why are they at the tower?

 

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

 

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

 

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your Queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

 

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

 

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

 

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

 

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

 

There’s another interesting point here. We also know from the World Book that when Rhaegar died at the Trident, Aerys named his own second son Viserys as his heir in place of Rhaegar’s son Aegon. Its argued by some of those who believe that R+L=Jon Targaryen that the Kings Guard were protecting the true king – but that was Viserys and men whose last words repeatedly affirm their loyalty to Aerys are hardly likely to be rejecting his last orders.

 

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions as to R+L=J it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

 

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

 

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne.  Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

 

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

 

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

 

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.

 

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list.  But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

 

 

Hey Black Crow I just wanted to say that's not a bad effort at constructing a sensible narrative there. I can buy that as being plausible. I guess my question is, who ordered them to the ToJ and why in your scenario? I get their motivation to fight for no reason other than fulfilling their vows, but who sent them there and for what purpose?

[wolfmaid7]

Well, some people apparently step out of their house after a rainy night when everything is soaked wet but they still claim that this is no proof of anything because we cannot exclude an army of pranksters with garden hoses.

For this other scenario to be true, we need satisfactory answers for:

- why did Rhaegar call the place ToJ?

- why were the KG at ToJ?

- why did Ned go to ToJ?

- why did the KG fight Ned?

- why does the dream include Lyanna if she was elsewhere?

- why does the dream include blue roses, like the ones that Lyanna got from Rhaegar?

... and, of course, the one that we never get an answer for from those who keep dronning "it's a dream": where the hell was Lyanna if not at ToJ and what are the textual hints for it?

 

 

 

No some people just like to use their noggin and discern clues when they are.....Its call observation and not jumping to conclusion.Telling from your answer to my parable you still didn't get it......One would of heard raindrops on the rooftops and i didn't say what time of day did i ?

Ygrain no matter how many answers people give it will never be deemed "satisfactory" so lets not go down that road.I mean some of these questions are just are really a case of we don't know yet.Somethings defintely have and answer to them or many.Others we don't know because to quote "some" of you guys somethings future books may say and those things are the things people get stuck on

1.Let me see its in Dorne,his wife is from Dorne, of that we are 100% sure.

2. Everything went to hell and it was a last hoorah for them.They sure didn't seem like they mind dying.I like Black Crow's take on this alot.

3.We don't know if Ned was really on his way there,he could have been going to Starfall anyways and 3 dudes who he was wondering where they were,were outside a roundtower in positions of readiness.The question is do you really think they would just let Ned and an armed posse just head to Starfall?

4.Honor,pride. "If we were there Aery's would still sit the throne." They were pretty much " frack it,blaze of glory"

5. Sigh as dreams go and as GRRM reminds us about our dreams not being always literal.Events, symbolic and real occured in the dream as dreams often do.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

6.Ygrain the dream actually has rose petals in it.The same with Ned's memory of Lyanna's actual death....They were just petals.And the way GRRM writes in one case is he talking about the rose petals or the sky/is he talking about the rose petals or her hands.Why the ambiguity.What's the meaning behind rose petals in such a manner away from the rose itself.Both seems violent to me.

7. Oh mother preserve me the textual hints are Ned's dream itself and his waking memories of the same event.Additionally,the subtle hints of the memory of Lyanna's death RE: Scent of roses .And the lack thereof stated by him but being able to give vivid details of the aftermath of the battle with the KGS.The events though sharing the same space in the dream most likely didn't happen in the same space and time as in real.

 

[wolfmaid7]

Being in the medical profession myself i know about the whole 'bad air' and the use of fragrances in the rooms of the ailing. However, and this is the point that i have to make over and over again for some of you people. Pulling examples "nilly willy" -real world application only works if you can show that it is a theme in the story.Do you know how many "what if's" are out there that could be used? Several.So cool as that would be,can you show where it is the culture of the Maesters,midwives,wet nurses etc to do this?

1. Read page 235 of the WB.But i will pull a quote that lets us know how bad it is.

"Even Garth Greenhand could not make flowers bloom in an environment so harsh and unforgiving....."

2.LML you said the toj is in the Dornish marches right? Ok lets go with that, though correct me if i'm wrong isn't the Dornish Marches considered part of the Stormlands? I'll look that up to make sure.I thought it was which would make a theory quite interesting if it was.

But here's the piece about the Marches.

"Farther inland,beyond the foothills,lie the marches--a vast expance of grassland,moors and windswept plains.stretching westward and northward for hundreds of leagues." 

There is no mention of any roses and any flowers growing there.Its described as the typical grassland and moor.A big expanse of nothing; except grass.LML even your post validated this so stop conflating issues with if it's fertile a lot hence my stressing furtile.All that grows there is GRASS.

Guys because something can be done doesn't mean it was done this is why there are clues to tell us which way to go. Kimm your from Turkey beautiful country.I had the pleasure of spending time in Gaziantep a few years ago amazing city.

Unfortunately for Dorne its access to water isn't so good as Turkey .To the Dornish people given that water is so very scarce in Dorne i doubt roses would be on the list of things that need growing in the inland areas.This would be a luxury and not even the Water gardens boast anything beside Olives,Citrus and Pomergranates.There not wasteful with it and the Marches have no inling of it.

I rest my case on this matter.You guys continue to think she was at the tower of joy when she died.We will continue to disagree on this matter until GRRM settles it.

So now back to the clues or no clues on if Howland and Lyanna could have had a thing.

 

 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

And here was me thinking you'd remember it 

<snip>

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list.  But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

They would be Ronin by choice. They would choose to ignore their oaths and abandon Viserys in Dragonstone. Their oaths tell them they should be on their way to Viserys, not seeking vengeance for Aerys, or for Rhaegar, or for Elia and her children. Normally, Ronin are lordless samurai through the death of their lords. Two of the people, at least, that they are sworn to serve are alive and need them, but they are, in your scenario, consciously choosing to abandon both of them. One who is their new king.

So, perhaps they make Selmy's choice and abandon Viserys because he is too much like his father. The only difference to Ser Barristan is that instead of accepting Robert's rule they decide it is better to die fighting Ned and his companions at the OK corral. Same result. They leave the pregnant Rhaella and the young boy Viserys to fend for themselves against the impending invasion of Dragonstone. The difference here is that Ronin aren't usually thought to be so because of treason to their lords, only because they out live them. Here they are more accurately described as traitors.

Something that has always been possible. It flips our view of the men from honorable Kingsguard to traitors, but it has always been a possibility. It is very strange that the traitors are so boastful of fighting to keep their vows, especially since I can't recall any vows by them that would mandate they ignore their first duty to guard their young king by throwing their lives away in a senseless fight for vengeance.

One has to ask then, just what is it that Ned Stark finds so honorable in these three traitors?

[Ygrain]

And here was me thinking you'd remember it 

 

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

 

 

 

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

 

 

 

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM

 

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

 

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

 

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

 

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths or the blood red skies be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning, given that he was specifically responding to a question about the events.  That then leaves Lyanna.

 

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

 

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

 

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

 

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

 

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

 

There’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar or even Aerys himself. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

 

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, but Hightower, Dayne and Whent remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

 

So let’s look at what happens:

 

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

 

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

 

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

 

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

 

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

 

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

 

But not “here” and Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

 

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

 

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

 

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

 

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

 

So why are they at the tower?

 

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

 

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

 

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your Queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

 

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

 

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

 

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

 

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

 

There’s another interesting point here. We also know from the World Book that when Rhaegar died at the Trident, Aerys named his own second son Viserys as his heir in place of Rhaegar’s son Aegon. Its argued by some of those who believe that R+L=Jon Targaryen that the Kings Guard were protecting the true king – but that was Viserys and men whose last words repeatedly affirm their loyalty to Aerys are hardly likely to be rejecting his last orders.

 

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions as to R+L=J it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

 

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

 

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne.  Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

 

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

 

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

 

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.

 

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list.  But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

 

 

 

Sorry but the only memorable thing is that it still avoids the main issue: why did Rhaegar call the place "tower of joy" and why do we have a connection, albeit a dream one, between this place and Lyanna?

Plus, one major logical fallacy:

"Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?"

What you posit here is absolutely NOT the only interpretation that GRRM's "not always literal" allows. The gist of the conversation is true, the fight and its outcome is true, but in Ned's waking memory, nothing confirms the sequence of events, only that he rode with six friends and they were seven against three. Hypothetically, Ned could have arrived at ToJ and wanted to see his sister. The KG let him in because they knew he was no danger for her and could see that he arrived with only a couple of trusted companions, so he apparently didn't wish to telegraph anything about Lyanna's condition and the like. He told them the news about what had happened at KL, talked to Lyanna and gave her the promise. However, the promise contained a part about taking Jon with him and keeping him away from all the royal and prophecy business, which clashed with the KG's vows and orders, hence the fight, with reverse sides: the seven attempting to leave, the three blocking the entrance. The dream convo never really happened that way, it was a digest of everything that had been talked about. 

Another option for the dream "not being literal" is they way Lyanna is included in the dream. Unless there was a considerable passage of time between the fight and "promise me", she was too weak to scream because her voice was reduced to whisper. Plus, even with the passage of time, she probably never screamed as the fight ensued, anyway, because "Eddard" was Vayon Poole's voice mixing into the dream. So, here you go an element of the dream which is apparently not literal, and it may be that Ned's dream is conflating elements which were separated by time. 

Besides, your "Ronin" scenario, as pointed out above, doesn't hold water. As long as Aerys' heir is alive, their first and foremost obligation is to protect him and give their lives for his, if need be. By going down in a blaze of glory, they are not doing their duty (not to mention that "now it begins" is hardly compatible with a deathwish for suicide by Northmen).

- But, back to the original qestion: why did Rhaegar call the place "tower of joy" again?

[Ygrain]

No some people just like to use their noggin and discern clues when they are.....Its call observation and not jumping to conclusion.Telling from your answer to my parable you still didn't get it......One would of heard raindrops on the rooftops and i didn't say what time of day did i ?

Ygrain no matter how many answers people give it will never be deemed "satisfactory" so lets not go down that road.I mean some of these questions are just are really a case of we don't know yet.Somethings defintely have and answer to them or many.Others we don't know because to quote "some" of you guys somethings future books may say and those things are the things people get stuck on

1.Let me see its in Dorne,his wife is from Dorne, of that we are 100% sure.

2. Everything went to hell and it was a last hoorah for them.They sure didn't seem like they mind dying.I like Black Crow's take on this alot.

3.We don't know if Ned was really on his way there,he could have been going to Starfall anyways and 3 dudes who he was wondering where they were,were outside a roundtower in positions of readiness.The question is do you really think they would just let Ned and an armed posse just head to Starfall?

4.Honor,pride. "If we were there Aery's would still sit the throne." They were pretty much " frack it,blaze of glory"

5. Sigh as dreams go and as GRRM reminds us about our dreams not being always literal.Events, symbolic and real occured in the dream as dreams often do.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

6.Ygrain the dream actually has rose petals in it.The same with Ned's memory of Lyanna's actual death....They were just petals.And the way GRRM writes in one case is he talking about the rose petals or the sky/is he talking about the rose petals or her hands.Why the ambiguity.What's the meaning behind rose petals in such a manner away from the rose itself.Both seems violent to me.

7. Oh mother preserve me the textual hints are Ned's dream itself and his waking memories of the same event.Additionally,the subtle hints of the memory of Lyanna's death RE: Scent of roses .And the lack thereof stated by him but being able to give vivid details of the aftermath of the battle with the KGS.The events though sharing the same space in the dream most likely didn't happen in the same space and time as in real.

 

Wolfmaid, you are kidding me. Rhaegar called an absolutely unimportant tower in Dorne "tower of joy" because it was in Dorne and his wife was from Dorne? Did he also have a "pass of joy" and "desert of joy"? And why "joy", when he was such a melancholic guy?

Oh, and I see that you are buying into blue as the eyes of death" referring to the sky. "Blue" is the default colour for sky, even if it is blood-streaked, no reason to point out this very obvious fact so poetically. 

Please, try again. Let us reduce the list to one basic question: why did Rhaegar call the place "tower of joy"?

[Eira Seren]

... a dream sequence with the attributes of a dream sequence. I am just saying that a purposeful act of creation is held to a logic which our subconsciousness lumping things together lacks.

The bolded is a bold assumption which has zero text support. "It is a dream" does not provide sufficient base for such a claim, and your argument about lack of gardens has about as much weight as FFR's claim that Ned dragged along Lyanna's dessicating corpse. Textual evidence linking Lyanna to another place, please.

 

 

 

Possibly, and yet I wonder if that same reading holds up when applied to other dreams in the text?

Jaime's weirwood dream again comes to mind. There could be logical progression in it... Though nobody expects that at some point in the future, Jamie will have to brandish a flaming sword to fend off a ghostly Rhaegar and company with Brienne at his side. Or, that this happened at some point in his past.

In this dream it seems like it's several disparate elements coming together, even though part of it may also contain symbolic meaning. And in both cases, the dreams are probably meant to reveal some info to both the character and the readers. I'm sure there's a logic at work in the dreams' creation, just not necessarily one that seeks to construct meaning in a solely different way than a mimetic (i.e.- like real life) manner.

[LmL]

 

 

Sure. Let's all adhere to the house rules. Not just the people who are questioning the theories in this (and the other franchised Heresy topics).

I've asked multiple times for textual references and support for the "heretical" ideas presented in these topics. Not once have I seen any.

 

Reading comprehension, Wolfmaid. I said the ToJ was where the Dornish Marches met the Red mountains and their fertile green belt, not that it was IN the Dornish Marches. Pretending I said the ToJ was in the marches doesn't help your case, and pretending that a quote about the Dornish desert applies to the red mountains also doesn't help your case. Pretending the TWOIAF quote about the Red Mountains being a fertile green belt doesn't help your case.  Yes, the Red Mountains get plenty of water - the storms dropping water there is specifically mentioned - and therefore could grow flowers of all types. You are being absurdly stubborn about this - and you STILL haven't addressed the fact that the roses Lyanna had were DEAD and BLACK. Every single word you've spent talking about how roses can't grow near the ToJ has been pointless, because she had dead roses, not live ones.

If you're going to find some traction with your "Lyanna was not at the ToJ" idea, I think you're going to need to focus on something else. The roses thing isn't helping you.  

[Black Crow]

Hey Black Crow I just wanted to say that's not a bad effort at constructing a sensible narrative there. I can buy that as being plausible. I guess my question is, who ordered them to the ToJ and why in your scenario? I get their motivation to fight for no reason other than fulfilling their vows, but who sent them there and for what purpose?

What I was suggesting there was that if we're dealing with a formal recounter, the three knights were not staying at or guarding the tower but waiting for the arrival of the other party at a pre-arranged meeting place at a prominent landmark