Stannis' Dragonstone

[Hugorfonics]

Jon Arryn does not reward the Lannisters for their contribution during the Rebellion.

Cersei is the most eligible daughter of a Great House at the time Robert needed to marry. It had little to do with the Rebellion and more to do with how powerful the Lannisters are as a House as well as the control they have over their own region.

 Sure, but they were rewarded after the rebellion. (After dragonspawn) I suppose Arianna and Myrcella were too young, Lady Dustin?

I still don't get why Jon A felt it necessary to the give Lannisters all the power. One reason is they weren't even very helpful during the war of Roberts reign, Tywins fleet burnt up against the ironborn. The other reason is the fall of Targaryens started with adding houses. The Dornish and Blackfyres fought many wars over the iron throne, only for a Baratheon claiming ancestry to take it over

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 Sure, but they were rewarded after the rebellion. (After dragonspawn) I suppose Arianna and Myrcella were too young, Lady Dustin?

They were not rewarded for the 'Dragonspawn'. Kings, especially newly crowned kings of unsecured dynasties with rivals with superior claims pick the strongest possible Queen to reinforce their position and they do this as quickly as possible so they can start banging out heirs to secure the Throne from future attack. 

"And Cersei … I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne"

It has little do with the rewarding the killers of Dragonspawn and more about trying to secure the Throne. Had House Lorch or Clegane had daughers or sisters old enough to marry they would not have been considered. House Lannister is amongst the most powerful, if not the most powerful at the time, with a marriageable beautiful daughter. It was an obvious choice.

Arrianne was too young, but even if she wasn't a bride from House Lannister trumps a daughter from House Martell especially as Dorne will have taken a few thousand casualties in the war and the Westerlands was left relatively unscathed.

Myrcella?

 

Lady Dustin is a fine match for a Lord, possibly even a secure king with no enemies. But rather lacking for a King who needs security.

 

I still don't get why Jon A felt it necessary to the give Lannisters all the power.

He didnt. Had he given the Lannisters all the power then you would have seen Tywin and Kevan sitting on the Small Council in some position. We don't, we have a Small Council of four Stormlanders (the King, his brothers and Barristan) two Vale men(Jon and Littlefinger) a Maester and a Varys who is from Essos. Tywin does not even live at court to even get the kind of influence you are suggesting.

It is a far cry from the Lannisters having the majority of power, let alone all the power. They certainly have a presence, but that is hardly surprising for the richest region and third most populated. Since Viserys I they have always had a presence at court.

 

One reason is they weren't even very helpful during the war of Roberts reign,

Well actually he was. Being neutral at the start of the war was a huge help to the rebels side. Had Tywin picked a side earlier then Robert would have lost. He also took Kings Landing, had he not the war could have gone on with the Reach and a rich treasury being able to afford sellsword companies be able to drag the war out indefinitely, maybe even winning.

The Lannisters put an end to the war very quickly.

 

Tywins fleet burnt up against the ironborn.

That was in the Greyjoy Rebellion and Tywin was helpful. "With Balon's "moat" now undefended, King Robert had no difficulty bringing his host across Ironman's Bay from Seagard and Lannisport. With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, and cut his way across the isles with steel and fire."

 

The other reason is the fall of Targaryens started with adding houses. The Dornish and Blackfyres fought many wars over the iron throne, only for a Baratheon claiming ancestry to take it over

 

Not really sure what your point is here, sorry.

[John Doe]

His home? Is it not also Renlys home and more importantly was it not actually Roberts, and his descendants, home?

This should be good!

Nope completely wrong. Stannis was able to raise 5k to the Freys 4k. If that was all he was given then you would have a point but he also has charge of the Royal Navy.

"However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor."

Not only was Stannis given Dragonstone, made Master of Ships he was also given the fealty of Houses Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon and Sunglass. He was even able to give away land in the Stormlands and House Seaworth paid fealty to him rather than Renly.

Is this why Stannis fans feel slighted? Becuase they are only comparing troop numbers and ignoring the Navy?

If Renly did not get along with others he too would have been at a disadvantage as the Stormlands alone would not have stood a chance. He would be in exactly the same position only that the the Stormlords have less reason to rebel against Robert and his sons then the Velaryon and other prominent Targ supporters in the Narrow Sea did.

It's a slight because his little brother was behind Stannis in line and did nothing to deserve that honor. I don't think it was meant as a slight though.

[Hugorfonics]

  They were not rewarded for the 'Dragonspawn'. Kings, especially newly crowned kings of unsecured dynasties with rivals with superior claims pick the strongest possible Queen to reinforce their position and they do this as quickly as possible so they can start banging out heirs to secure the Throne from future attack. 

  Child Viserys and useless Golden Company might be fearsome, but it's not worth it.

There are also many dynasties that were weakened by marriage with powerful houses. 

Not really sure what your point is here, sorry.

(no worries, it's the main point). A great example of a dynasties downfall is Targaryen. The two major claimants, Dany and Aegon, are both entangled in a cousins war, because The Unworthy gave too much power to his family. Even before that, the powerful in laws, Hightower and Veleryon fought for supremecy, to the effect of carnage and a permanent destabilization of the crown.

Along with the worries of usurpation from giving armies and titles to powerful lords not descended from your ancestor, is that Lords come with enemies, Lannister and Stark. Reach and Dorne. 

 

“You can know a man by his friends, Egg. Daeron surrounded himself with maesters, septons, and singers. Always there were women whispering in his ear, and his court was full of Dornishmen. How not, when he had taken a Dornishwoman into his bed, and sold his own sweet sister to the prince of Dorne, though it was Daemon that she loved?

 

Myrcella?

lol,  I'm sure that's not what I meant.

Well actually he was. Being neutral at the start of the war was a huge help to the rebels side. Had Tywin picked a side earlier then Robert would have lost. He also took Kings Landing, had he not the war could have gone on with the Reach and a rich treasury being able to afford sellsword companies be able to drag the war out indefinitely, maybe even winning.

The Lannisters put an end to the war very quickly.

That was in the Greyjoy Rebellion and Tywin was helpful. "With Balon's "moat" now undefended, King Robert had no difficulty bringing his host across Ironman's Bay from Seagard and Lannisport. With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, and cut his way across the isles with steel and fire."

What? If Twyin sided with Robert early how would that harm the rebellion?

If Tywin didnt come then Ned would have laid siege a couple hours later, with Robert not too far behind. Tywin arrived when Robert already won.

No doubt Tywin was there, but he lost alotta ships,(biggest defeat in the war excluding pyke?) and won less merit then Jorah and a priest 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

  Child Viserys and useless Golden Company might be fearsome, but it's not worth it.

You might think that but Robert and Jon Arryn didnt. They might be slightly more informed of the situation. Even 15 years after the Rebellion, 15 years of consolidating power and stabilizing his relations with his former enemies Robert is still very, very cautious of an attack from a Targaryen.

The king groaned. "For the last time, I will not name the Arryn boy Warden. I know the boy is your nephew, but with Targaryens climbing in bed with Dothraki, I would be mad to rest one quarter of the realm on the shoulders of a sickly child."

After the Rebellion the situation would have been even more precarious. And not just from the Targs; new dynasties are vulnerable. Robert had proved that anyone with enough strength could take the Throne, that is why creating strong alliances and producing heirs is the main priority.

 

There are also many dynasties that were weakened by marriage with powerful houses. 

They were weakened specifically because they had a marriage alliance with a powerful House? No other external reason?

This is fascinating, I'd like to hear these many dynasties.

 

(no worries, it's the main point). A great example of a dynasties downfall is Targaryen. The two major claimants, Dany and Aegon, are both entangled in a cousins war, because The Unworthy gave too much power to his family. Even before that, the powerful in laws, Hightower and Veleryon fought for supremecy, to the effect of carnage and a permanent destabilization of the crown.

Not sure this is any clearer than your point about Myrcella. I have no idea what this point is supposed to be?

Along with the worries of usurpation from giving armies and titles to powerful lords not descended from your ancestor, is that Lords come with enemies, Lannister and Stark. Reach and Dorne. 

What does this and your previous point have to do with Robert marrying Cersei being a bad idea? Seriously you are waffling with no clear coherent point right now.

 

 

lol,  I'm sure that's not what I meant.

No surprise.

 

What? If Twyin sided with Robert early how would that harm the rebellion?

I don't think you have read what I said. Remaining neutral was a huge boon for Robert.

What if he sided with the Royals early it would have adversely affected the Rebellion. Tywin staying neutral and keeping his Lords neutral for the most of the Rebellion was an important part to the Rebels success.

Even offering the smallest bit of support to the Crown could have changed the whole war.

If Tywin didnt come then Ned would have laid siege a couple hours later, with Robert not too far behind. Tywin arrived when Robert already won.

No. Aerys was still alive. Had Tywin declared for the Crown then the war would have gone on, the war was over because Tywin sided with Rebels. Had he sided with the Crown, even after Rhaegars death, the war would be far from over.

No doubt Tywin was there, but he lost alotta ships,(biggest defeat in the war excluding pyke?) and won less merit then Jorah and a priest 

 

How do you know he won less merit? Tywin was already a Knight, he was hardly going to be knighted again.

 

We know very little about the wars on the islands in the Greyjoy Rebellion, we have little knowledge of what happened.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

Stannis' disgruntlement isn't strictly related to Dragonstone. The problem is that Renly - who hasn't done anything - gets the better fiefdom. That's unjust and goes against the feudal duty of rewarding one's vassals and considering Stannis' obsession with duty and justice he can hardly be happy that people who have done less than him have repeatedly gotten more than he did.

 

But he didn't, he was being generous with his brothers.

Stannis had no right to a Lordship, no right to a position on the Small Council. His brother gave him both, it is not Robert's fault that his ungrateful brother wanted a different Lordship and a more powerful position on the Small Council.

 

A position in the Small Council may be a honor for a minor lord (like Baelish). For the King's brother- that's a job. Stannis could always gain audience with Robert by virtue of being close kin (leaving aside his own personal importance).

As for having rights to a lordship- Kings and Lords are expected to reward loyalty. That's a pretty basic fact that's inbuilt in the feudal system which is why Tywin was expecting a royal marriage, why Robb got engaged with a Frey and why there's a whole chapter after Blackwater detailing the rewards all the major participants of the winning side got.

There's no patriotism in a feudal society- all the bounds are either personal friendships (Ned and Robert), blood ties or land deeds.

 Sure, but they were rewarded after the rebellion. (After dragonspawn) I suppose Arianna and Myrcella were too young, Lady Dustin?

I still don't get why Jon A felt it necessary to the give Lannisters all the power. One reason is they weren't even very helpful during the war of Roberts reign, Tywins fleet burnt up against the ironborn. The other reason is the fall of Targaryens started with adding houses. The Dornish and Blackfyres fought many wars over the iron throne, only for a Baratheon claiming ancestry to take it over

 

Because the Lannisters already had a lot of power. Jon Arryn didn't actually give Tywin anything- except for the prestige of having the next king with Lannister blood. That's not exactly small but the Lannisters have huge amounts of money which Robert liberally borrowed and a pretty significant army, which helped stop the Greyjoys and would have helped quell any attempt at restoring the Targaryens.

 

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

I'm not sure if they were more vulnerable before Drogo, but I understand why they did it, just it was a mistake. Robert already had strong alliances.

 

They were weakened specifically because they had a marriage alliance with a powerful House? No other external reason?

This is fascinating, I'd like to hear these many dynasties.

In real life, the Roman Julia became Emperor of Rome, he married a Claudiun, and never sat the throne again. Chinese Han, the Liu onto Cao (or Liu onto anything really). English Plantaginit and Elanore of Aquatine. The examples are endless. But we're talking of westeros.

Not sure this is any clearer than your point about Myrcella. I have no idea what this point is supposed to be?

What does this and your previous point have to do with Robert marrying Cersei being a bad idea? Seriously you are waffling with no clear coherent point right now.

 

ok. Dance happened because the Hightowers owned the crown. Then the Blackfyres tried to take the crown. If the Targs never married rich families,like Hightower and Martell, war would have been avoided. Robert repeats westeros' mistake, and gives Cersei his power.

 

 

[HexMachina]

 So Stannis is nuts and Cerseis a bitch I guess I can get behind that.

Why no Joffrey or Tommen? Shouldn't the first son of the first son and second son of the first son come before second sons and third? Though then, why did Stannis think it's his right?

 

As to why not Joffrey or Tommen - the Lords of the Narrow Sea had a long history as Targ loyalists, with the Celtigars and Velaryons being of Valyrian origin themselves. They were likely the last to surrender in Robert's Rebellion (considering they were most likely the Houses making up the Royal Navy that was broken in the storm) so putting a child in charge wasn't a smart move. They needed someone with authority, and experience. Robert gave that task to Stannis. The very fact he trusts him with that task is really a bit of a compliment when you think about it.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 

 

ok. Dance happened because the Hightowers owned the crown. Then the Blackfyres tried to take the crown. If the Targs never married rich families,like Hightower and Martell, war would have been avoided. Robert repeats westeros' mistake, and gives Cersei his power.

If the Targs never married rich families they wouldn't have kept the Throne after the last dragon died.

The Dance of the Dragons wouldn't have happened without Targ dragonriders and Kingsguards stoking up the flames. The Hightowers were relatively important but ultimately secondary. Aegon, Aemon, Daemon, Rhaenyra- all had motives and grudges which made the war ultimately inevitable.

The Martells supported the Crown. If Daeron hadn't married the Martells Dorne wouldn't be united, setting a bad example and there's little guarantee that the Blackfyre Rebellions wouldn't have happened in some shape or form considering Daemon Blackfyre's legitimization.

 

Robert didn't give Cersei his power- he gave a lot of power to the Lannisters who are the primary backers of his regime. All those feasts and hunts Robert liked so much? Lannister gold. Robert needed to appease Tywin because he'd be utterly screwed financially and his dynasty is in no position to make war or raise taxes, not with the Reach, Dorne and the Iron Isles with uncertain loyalty.  

 

[Sullen]

 

Robert didn't give Cersei his power- he gave a lot of power to the Lannisters who are the primary backers of his regime. All those feasts and hunts Robert liked so much? Lannister gold. Robert needed to appease Tywin because he'd be utterly screwed financially and his dynasty is in no position to make war or raise taxes, not with the Reach, Dorne and the Iron Isles with uncertain loyalty.  

 

Except that Robert being indebted to Tywin also works in his favour.

Tywin invested that dosh into Robert's reign, should he act against Robert, he can say goodbye to those loans. The Baratheon-Lannister alliance is just that, an alliance, benefiting both Robert and Tywin, but Robert moreso than the latter as he gets (another) loyal region whose interests are in keeping him on the throne.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

Except that Robert being indebted to Tywin also works in his favour.

Tywin invested that dosh into Robert's reign, should he act against Robert, he can say goodbye to those loans. The Baratheon-Lannister alliance is just that, an alliance, benefiting both Robert and Tywin, but Robert moreso than the latter as he gets (another) loyal region whose interests are in keeping him on the throne.

Well yes quite obviously. 

Tywin wouldn't have coughed all that dosh if Cersei wasn't married to Robert and if Robert didn't throw a bone or two by taking Lannister squires and such but Robert is easily the one with the most advantages.

Ultimately Robert didn't give that much power to the Lannisters- the Small Council didn't have a Westerlander member. The only power he did give was the indirect sort- by not educating Joffrey and not taking care of his guards he allowed Cersei to take control of crucial bits of infrastructure. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Stannis' disgruntlement isn't strictly related to Dragonstone. The problem is that Renly - who hasn't done anything - gets the better fiefdom. That's unjust and goes against the feudal duty of rewarding one's vassals and considering Stannis' obsession with duty and justice he can hardly be happy that people who have done less than him have repeatedly gotten more than he did.

We actually don't know that Renly has not done anything.  They both survived the siege and Renly was given the Lordship of the Stormlands 12 years before the series began. At that point all we know is that Stannis failed to catch the Targaryens at Dragstone.

A position in the Small Council may be a honor for a minor lord (like Baelish). For the King's brother- that's a job. Stannis could always gain audience with Robert by virtue of being close kin (leaving aside his own personal importance).

No, it quite clearly is an honor for any Lord. That is why Mace, Redwyne, Rowan and Tarly were all honoured to serve on it. Daemon Targaryen, Viserys I brother, was honoured to serve and when he displeased his brother he lost his position.

Being on the Small Council means having a Hand in running the Kingdom and in Stannis' case the resources to build himself a Navy.

I'm not sure if they were more vulnerable before Drogo, but I understand why they did it, just it was a mistake. Robert already had strong alliances.

Not strong enough. The realm was divided, there seems to have been more soldiers for the Royals than the Rebels. If a Tyrell married a Lannister and decided they wanted the Throne Robert would be in danger. Robert needed more support, having less than half the Realm might be good enough for an American president but not for a King of a feudal society.

Marrying the beautiful daughter of the most powerful Lord in the kingdom is a no-brainer. I'm yet to see better alternatives and why they are better?

 

In real life, the Roman Julia became Emperor of Rome, he married a Claudiun, and never sat the throne again. Chinese Han, the Liu onto Cao (or Liu onto anything really). English Plantaginit and Elanore of Aquatine. The examples are endless. But we're talking of westeros.

What? Elaine was not a bad marriage because she came from a powerful House. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, it was a marriage that produced many strong heirs. The problem was that he fell out with his son and heir, Henry, who wanted more power.  That had little to do with Elaine coming from a powerful family.

Can you provide actual examples please rather than this.

ok. Dance happened because the Hightowers owned the crown.

No, it happened because the heir was a female and 30 years ago a Great Council ruled against a female heir.

 

Then the Blackfyres tried to take the crown.

Which has nothing to do with Daemon being married to a powerful family.

 

If the Targs never married rich families,like Hightower and Martell, war would have been avoided. Robert repeats westeros' mistake, and gives Cersei his power.

Bizarre argument.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

We actually don't know that Renly has not done anything.  They both survived the siege and Renly was given the Lordship of the Stormlands 12 years before the series began. At that point all we know is that Stannis failed to catch the Targaryens at Dragstone.

No, it quite clearly is an honor for any Lord. That is why Mace, Redwyne, Rowan and Tarly were all honoured to serve on it. Daemon Targaryen, Viserys I brother, was honoured to serve and when he displeased his brother he lost his position.

Being on the Small Council means having a Hand in running the Kingdom and in Stannis' case the resources to build himself a Navy.

 

Renly was a child at the time- even during GoT he's in his early twenties. Stannis held Storm's End during a year long siege and built a royal navy to take Dragonstone while Renly was still playing with wooden swords.

Mace was Hand which is way more prestigious than being a random member of the Small Council and Redwyne, Rowan and Tarly are majorish lords, not the King's own brother.

Daemon held titles in the Small Council when he was supposed to be his brother's heir. When he was pulled out of succession (for making tasteless jokes about his brother's son dying in childbirth) he stormed out and conquered his own Kingdom (before he got bored of it and went back to Westerosi politics). Stannis held the office of Master of Ships for years, doing very well in the Greyjoy Rebellion, despite countless provocations from Robert.  

No surprise he's bitter when he gets less than basically anyone. Jon Arryn gets made Hand, Renly gets the Stormlands and the Master of Law post, Tywin gets his daughter as queen even Hoster gets very good marriages for his daughters.

Stannis gets a middling lordship and a place in the Small Council despite doing more than anyone except Jon Arryn.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Renly was a child at the time- even during GoT he's in his early twenties. Stannis held Storm's End during a year long siege and built a royal navy to take Dragonstone while Renly was still playing with wooden swords.

Both Renly and Stannis were in Storms End when it withheld the siege. Stannis might think his teenage self was the sole reason for survival, Robert might have thought it was down to some of the other nobles who helped him hold it.

According to Stannis he failed in his objectives to capture the royal family.

I built a fleet at Robert's command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it.

I'm not sure why Stannis should have been rewarded more than his other brother at that time. Now we know that Robert gave Renly Storms End before the Greyjoy Rebellion.

"Your brother has been the Lord of Storm's End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—"

It is possible that Robert saw that Renly's potential as a peace maker, as someone (even at that young age) who was more capable of bridging relations between himself and the Reach. It is around that time that Loras is sent to Storm's End - something that would never have happened under Stannis.

Further more we don't know how much difference is in the Stormland  and the Narrow sea incomes. We know that one comes with a bigger army and one with a bigger navy, outside of that there may not be too much difference. Something that Robert was not necessarily thinking off as he never considered his brothers needing large armies to rebel against his sons. 

Mace was Hand which is way more prestigious than being a random member of the Small Council and Redwyne, Rowan and Tarly are majorish lords, not the King's own brother.

Mace was Master of Ships.

 

Daemon held titles in the Small Council when he was supposed to be his brother's heir. When he was pulled out of succession (for making tasteless jokes about his brother's son dying in childbirth) he stormed out and conquered his own Kingdom (before he got bored of it and went back to Westerosi politics). Stannis held the office of Master of Ships for years, doing very well in the Greyjoy Rebellion, despite countless provocations from Robert.  

Can you name them?

Robert made him a Lord and made him a member of his Small Coucil. You don't see Kevan complaining when Tywin put him on the SC or Daemon Targaryen when his brother did so.

No surprise he's bitter when he gets less than basically anyone. Jon Arryn gets made Hand, Renly gets the Stormlands and the Master of Law post, Tywin gets his daughter as queen even Hoster gets very good marriages for his daughters.

Oh comes on, you are grasping. He got lands, Jon and Tywin didnt.

The only person who possibly received more is Renly and that is debatable until we know the incomes of each House.

Stannis gets a middling lordship and a place in the Small Council despite doing more than anyone except Jon Arryn.

He didnt do more than Ned, he didnt to more than Hoster. And he received more than the two of them.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

Both Renly and Stannis were in Storms End when it withheld the siege. Stannis might think his teenage self was the sole reason for survival, Robert might have thought it was down to some of the other nobles who helped him hold it.

According to Stannis he failed in his objectives to capture the royal family.

I built a fleet at Robert's command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it.

I'm not sure why Stannis should have been rewarded more than his other brother at that time. Now we know that Robert gave Renly Storms End before the Greyjoy Rebellion.

"Your brother has been the Lord of Storm's End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—"

It is possible that Robert saw that Renly's potential as a peace maker, as someone (even at that young age) who was more capable of bridging relations between himself and the Reach. It is around that time that Loras is sent to Storm's End - something that would never have happened under Stannis.

Further more we don't know how much difference is in the Stormland  and the Narrow sea incomes. We know that one comes with a bigger army and one with a bigger navy, outside of that there may not be too much difference. Something that Robert was not necessarily thinking off as he never considered his brothers needing large armies to rebel against his sons.

 

Stannis couldn't have captured the Royal family if they eloped away into the night. He captured the stationary target- Dragonstone. Robert was a total dick for blaming him when Robert knew very well the realities of medieval warfare.

 

Also the difference between the Narrow Sea and Storm's End are huge. An estimated 30kish men and dozens of vassals versus barely 5k men and a couple of isles? There's nearly no comparison between the two. Dragonstone is a large lordship. The Stormlands are a small kingdom.

 

 

Mace was Master of Ships.

 

No. He was Hand.

 

 

Can you name them?

Robert made him a Lord and made him a member of his Small Coucil. You don't see Kevan complaining when Tywin put him on the SC or Daemon Targaryen when his brother did so.

Robert deflowered Delena Florent on Stannis' wedding bed. That's a pretty huge provocation right there.

Kevan wasn't the King's brother, he was the brother of a Lord Paramount. Daemon Targaryen was the heir to the Iron Throne until he got kicked out of the Small Council and line of succession - obviously he wanted to be in the Small Council to defend his interests.

 

Oh comes on, you are grasping. He got lands, Jon and Tywin didnt.

The only person who possibly received more is Renly and that is debatable until we know the incomes of each House.

He didnt do more than Ned, he didnt to more than Hoster. And he received more than the two of them.

Tywin got a royal marriage for coming in very, very late and taking exactly zero personal risks. Jon Arryn was formally the number 2 guy in the Seven Kingdoms and practically took most of the decisions during Robert's reign.

The Stormlands being way bigger and richer than Dragonstone can hardly be debated.

Hoster married off both of his daughters, including the soiled Lysa to some of the highest lords in the realm. Sure maybe he didn't quite get as much as he would have otherwise deserved- but someone else getting short changed wouldn't have warmed Stannis up very much.

Ned got the North which he wouldn't have normally gotten and fled as far away as possible from any sort of further honors and dignities. The Stark antiambition can hardly be used as a reasonable example- we see that quite clearly in how uncomfortable Robb is even at the relatively honest and upright northerner ambitions and machinations.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Stannis couldn't have captured the Royal family if they eloped away into the night. He captured the stationary target- Dragonstone. Robert was a total dick for blaming him when Robert knew very well the realities of medieval warfare.

Stannis was given a task and he failed. Maybe Robert was not a dick (I mean he still rewarded him despite his failure) and that Stannis failed a task that he was expected to accomplish.

Neither of us can say for sure without knowing more details.

Also the difference between the Narrow Sea and Storm's End are huge. An estimated 30kish men

Source for this 30k men?

and dozens of vassals versus barely 5k men and a couple of isles?

Well you seem to be forgetting having control over one of the strongest navies in the Kingdom. Being powerful is not all about how many soldiers you have.

 

There's nearly no comparison between the two. Dragonstone is a large lordship. The Stormlands are a small kingdom.

Of course there is a comparison between them. Both are Lords over multiple vassals. We know that Dragonstone has the bigger Navy and that the Stormlands can supply more troops on the field. Beyond that we have no idea which Lordship generates more incomes.

 

No. He was Hand.

No, he eventually became Hand. Initially he was Master of Ships. Or were you under the assumption that Tywin stepped down and allowed Mace to become the Hand?

 

Robert deflowered Delena Florent on Stannis' wedding bed. That's a pretty huge provocation right there.

To the Flornents, not to Stannis. But seriously, this is your evidence of 'countless provocations'?  Ouch! I guess you were being a little hyperbolic.

Kevan wasn't the King's brother, he was the brother of a Lord Paramount. Daemon Targaryen was the heir to the Iron Throne until he got kicked out of the Small Council and line of succession - obviously he wanted to be in the Small Council to defend his interests.

So you admit, being on the Small Council for the brother of the King is an honour? Or are you still maintaining that it was nothing?

 

Tywin got a royal marriage for coming in very, very late and taking exactly zero personal risks.

Tywin got a royal marriage for being the Patricarch of the most powerful House in the realm, not for coming in very, very late,

Where is it said that the royal marriage had anything to do with the what Tywin did in the war?

 

 Jon Arryn was formally the number 2 guy in the Seven Kingdoms and practically took most of the decisions during Robert's reign.

Jon Arryn was one of the three men most responsible for making Robert King. Both Ned and Jon supplied Robert with more troops than the Stormlands did.

He was one of the leaders of the rebellion while Stannis was sitting back at Storms End.

Oh, and you are forgetting the most baisc point. Jon Arryn was vastly better qualified to become Hand of the King than the teenage Stannis. VASTLY!

 

The Stormlands being way bigger and richer than Dragonstone can hardly be debated.

Bigger? Yes! There is no evidence that it is richer, if you have such evidence then I will be grateful to see it.

Hoster married off both of his daughters, including the soiled Lysa to some of the highest lords in the realm. Sure maybe he didn't quite get as much as he would have otherwise deserved- but someone else getting short changed wouldn't have warmed Stannis up very much.

That was before Robert became King.. Neither was a reward from Robert.

What rewards did Hoster get from Robert?

Hoster did far more than Stannis and yet it is Stannis who received more lands and a position on the Small Council, if anyone should feel aggrieved it is Hoster.

Ned got the North which he wouldn't have normally gotten and fled as far away as possible from any sort of further honors and dignities. The Stark antiambition can hardly be used as a reasonable example- we see that quite clearly in how uncomfortable Robb is even at the relatively honest and upright northerner ambitions and machinations.

lol Now you are trolling.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 

Well you seem to be forgetting having control over one of the strongest navies in the Kingdom. Being powerful is not all about how many soldiers you have.

 

No but it is mostly how many soldiers you have. Medieval navies don't really 'do' much without the soldiery to back it up.

 

Source for this 30k men?

 

The Game of Thrones RPG. It also fits pretty well with all the guestimates calced here and on Reddit.

 

To the Flornents, not to Stannis. But seriously, this is your evidence of 'countless provocations'?  Ouch! I guess you were being a little hyperbolic.

 

Robert screwed Stannis' cousin in law at Stannis' wedding- on his wedding bed. If this isn't a provocation I don't know what is.

 

So you admit, being on the Small Council for the brother of the King is an honour? Or are you still maintaining that it was nothing?

 

Erm... how does Daemon being on the Small Council make it an honor? Daemon was heir - he probably wanted a say in how his presumptive future realm was governed. We don't know enough details to establish how honored Daemon was from being made a member of the Council.

Tywin got a royal marriage for being the Patricarch of the most powerful House in the realm, not for coming in very, very late?

Where is is said that the royal marriage had anything to do with the what Tywin did in the war?

Jon Arryn was one of the three men most responsible for making Robert King. Both Ned and Jon supplied Robert with more troops than the Stormlands did.

He was one of the leaders of the rebellion while Stannis was sitting back at Storms End.

Oh, and you are forgetting the most baisc point. Jon Arryn was vastly better qualified to become Hand of the King than the teenage Stannis. VASTLY!

Nobody is saying that Stannis should have been made Hand instead of Jon Arryn- just that Jon Arryn got a big reward. Stannis' problems weren't that Jon Arryn was made Hand- it was that he didn't receive Storm's End and that he wasn't made Hand after Jon Arryn died despite serving on the Small Council for over a decade.

Tywin himself says that Robert was grateful for him murdering Rhaegar's children.

Stannis wasn't sitting at Storm's End- he was holding the siege against a large Tyrell host.

Bigger? Yes! There is no evidence that it is richer, if you have such evidence then I will be grateful to see it.

That was before Robert became King.. Neither was a reward from Robert.

What rewards did Hoster get from Robert?

Hoster did far more than Stannis and yet it is Stannis who received more lands and a position on the Small Council, if anyone should feel aggrieved it is Hoster.

Erm... the formerly independent kingdom that's dozens of times larger and has over a score of major houses being richer than the smallish clump of isles with three important vassals isn't a huge stretch.

Hoster has negotiated his reward prior to getting involved in the war or are we going to say that Mace, Walder and Roose didn't receive rewards because Joffrey didn't spontaneously gave them marriages and titles?  

 

lol Now you are trolling.

Ned got a title he wasn't supposed to have in the normal course of tings. Yeah it wasn't a traditional 'reward' but Ned deliberately rejected any attempt at rewarding- he explicitly didn't want to be Hand and reading between the lines gives a strong impression that he didn't really want to be Lord Paramount either.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No but it is mostly how many soldiers you have. Medieval navies don't really 'do' much without the soldiery to back it up.

To back what up? How many troops is only important if Stannis was planning on rebelling against his brother or his brothers children.

They were both to be his vassals, not working for their own ambitions.

 

The Game of Thrones RPG. It also fits pretty well with all the guestimates calced here and on Reddit.

Based on that RPG the Stormlands is the least powerful Kingdom.

Sure calculations here and on reddit might say 30k. It is certainly a possibility but it could also be less.

Robert screwed Stannis' cousin in law at Stannis' wedding- on his wedding bed. If this isn't a provocation I don't know what is.

It was consensual, was it not? She was single, was she not?

Robert also had sex with an Estermont cousin and they didn't take it as provocation. Stannis may have taken it as so, as he does other things, but it clearly was not a deliberate act made to piss off Stannis. So no, not really a provocation.

And considering you said there was countless provocations and the best you can come up with is an indiscretion then it is fair to say your original point was hyperbolic.

 

Erm... how does Daemon being on the Small Council make it an honor? Daemon was heir - he probably wanted a say in how his presumptive future realm was governed. We don't know enough details to establish how honored Daemon was from being made a member of the Council.

It was an honour, I seriously don't see you can deny sitting on the Small Council and helping run the kingdom is not a boon.

He did not have a right to this, it was gift from his brother. One that he did not have to give.

Nobody is saying that Stannis should have been made Hand instead of Jon Arryn- just that Jon Arryn got a big reward.

Are you not contradicting yourself? Your earlier argument that it is not an honour for a great Lord to be sitting on the Small Council, and now you claiming that it is?

Jon Arryn was rightly rewarded for being one of the three leaders of the Rebellion. Without his support there would be no King Robert.

 

Stannis' problems weren't that Jon Arryn was made Hand- it was that he didn't receive Storm's End and that he wasn't made Hand after Jon Arryn died despite serving on the Small Council for over a decade.

At no point does he say what Renly should have received, that Renly should have gotten Dragonstone. It is all about him.

Robert is the King, he gets to decide who he wants to make Hand and Ned played a huge role in making him King. If Stannis wanted to be Hand he should have made a better effort to get along with the King and the other Lords of the Kingdom.

Instead of blaming others he should recognize his own shortcomings and not expect the whole world to adjust to his personality and wants and desires.

Tywin himself says that Robert was grateful for him murdering Rhaegar's children.

And?

We know precisely why Robert married Cersei, it was because of how powerful her father was. It was not a reward for killing children.

"And Cersei … I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne,"

Stannis wasn't sitting at Storm's End- he was holding the siege against a large Tyrell host.

As was Renly. They were both holding the siege as were many others. It was not all down to the teenage Stannis.

Erm... the formerly independent kingdom that's dozens of times larger and has over a score of major houses being richer than the smallish clump of isles with three important vassals isn't a huge stretch.

Then prove it. According to the author:

The stormlands have lots of trees and rocks and rain.

We have no idea which Lordship generates more revenue, having more land means little otherwise the North would be the many times richer than the Westerlands.

Hoster has negotiated his reward prior to getting involved in the war or are we going to say that Mace, Walder and Roose didn't receive rewards because Joffrey didn't spontaneously gave them marriages and titles?  

What reward did Hoster receive from Robert?

Hoster did more to make Robert King than Stannis did and yet Robert gave more to Stannis.

 

Ned got a title he wasn't supposed to have in the normal course of tings.

What utter bullshit. He was Lord of the North, the Northern vassals that made Robert King were doing so because they recognized Ned as their Lord a year before Robert was made King.

Honestly, in a post of shitty reasoning this one takes the biscuit.

Robert did not reward Ned with the North. He was already Lord of the North before Robert was King. Unless you are suggesting that Robert has a delorean stashed away then I have no idea how you have came to this conclusion.

 

[Hugorfonics]

If the Targs never married rich families they wouldn't have kept the Throne after the last dragon died.

The Dance of the Dragons wouldn't have happened without Targ dragonriders and Kingsguards stoking up the flames. The Hightowers were relatively important but ultimately secondary. Aegon, Aemon, Daemon, Rhaenyra- all had motives and grudges which made the war ultimately inevitable.

The Martells supported the Crown. If Daeron hadn't married the Martells Dorne wouldn't be united, setting a bad example and there's little guarantee that the Blackfyre Rebellions wouldn't have happened in some shape or form considering Daemon Blackfyre's legitimization.

 

Robert didn't give Cersei his power- he gave a lot of power to the Lannisters who are the primary backers of his regime. All those feasts and hunts Robert liked so much? Lannister gold. Robert needed to appease Tywin because he'd be utterly screwed financially and his dynasty is in no position to make war or raise taxes, not with the Reach, Dorne and the Iron Isles with uncertain loyalty.  

 

 If Targaryen never married rich then the conniving Hightowers would be in no position to start the dance and watch the destruction of dragons.

No doubt the Targaryens were the center of attention, but that doesn't diminish the Hightowers or Velaryons schmes.

“In King’s Landing, there are two sorts of people. The players and the pieces.”

“And I was a piece?” She dreaded the answer.

"Yes, but don’t let that trouble you. You’re still half a child. Every man’s a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players.”

 

The Blackfyre legalization was also a drastic problem that Robert should have sought as precedent. It got powerful families like Bracken involved in the game of thrones.

Robert didn't intentionally give the throne to the west, but he did employ Jaime as a guard and his cousins as squires. Lannister swords never left his presence. 

Not strong enough. The realm was divided, there seems to have been more soldiers for the Royals than the Rebels. If a Tyrell married a Lannister and decided they wanted the Throne Robert would be in danger. Robert needed more support, having less than half the Realm might be good enough for an American president but not for a King of a feudal society.

 

No way, despite Renlys insistence, people care about the law. Tyrell has no claim, nor does Lannister; Robert only sat on the throne because of his great grandmother. 

Marrying the beautiful daughter of the most powerful Lord in the kingdom is a no-brainer. I'm yet to see better alternatives and why they are better?

Anyone is better. The most powerful lord is already one to be feared, elevating them to Kingslanding is just feeding the ambitious. 

What? Elaine was not a bad marriage because she came from a powerful House. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, it was a marriage that produced many strong heirs. The problem was that he fell out with his son and heir, Henry, who wanted more power.  That had little to do with Elaine coming from a powerful family.

Can you provide actual examples please rather than this.

"Many strong heirs"  Henry jr, I don't know much, he seems like an impationt traitor, and a failure at that. But he was backed by Anjou troops (bad marriage), so at least he was a mamas boy. Richard was a terrible king, he sold much to fail in his wannabe genocide. John was somehow worse then Richard, giving up his power to the Lords. All princes were enticed to bad politics by their mom, plus Anjou was hated by the rest of Henrys realm.

So, that example, my other two also; Pretty much the entire eastern Han dynasty (200 years) had the wives moms and in laws pulling strings and succession. The first Empress of Rome, the Lady Livia, was from an immensely powerful family, and put her family on the throne, not Augustus'. The war of roses is another example of family members fighting rich family.

No, it happened because the heir was a female and 30 years ago a Great Council ruled against a female heir.

That was 30 years ago. The Realms delight was the heir acknowledged by the king, as his soul was leaving his body his powerful wifes family consorted in heavy politics.

Which has nothing to do with Daemon being married to a powerful family

There was civil war because random houses felt entitled to help rule through their family.

Bizarre argument

Two lions can not live in the same den.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

To back what up? How many troops is only important if Stannis was planning on rebelling against his brother or his brothers children.

They were both to be his vassals, not working for their own ambitions.

Based on that RPG the Stormlands is the least powerful Kingdom.

Sure calculations here and on reddit might say 30k. It is certainly a possibility but it could also be less.

 

How many troops a lordship can field is directly tied to the prosperity of said lordship. Soldiers need payment, weapons, armor.

Vassals aren't all equals- see house Mormont vs Hightower. They're both direct bannermen to Lords Paramount yet the Hightowers are only slightly poorer than the Lannisters, have married into the royal family and boast thrice the number of men compared to any other Reach house while the Mormonts can have a wooden fort and can barely support a mildly luxurious lifestyle by noble standards.

Dragonstone isn't considered a kingdom at all- and even if the Stormlands have less than 30000 men they still have way more than 5000. 

 

 

It was consensual, was it not? She was single, was she not?

Robert also had sex with an Estermont cousin and they didn't take it as provocation. Stannis may have taken it as so, as he does other things, but it clearly was not a deliberate act made to piss off Stannis. So no, not really a provocation.

And considering you said there was countless provocations and the best you can come up with is an indiscretion then it is fair to say your original point was hyperbolic.

Robert had sex during the wedding night in Stannis' room. 

That's a deliberate provocation. 

 

 

Are you not contradicting yourself? Your earlier argument that it is not an honour for a great Lord to be sitting on the Small Council, and now you claiming that it is?

Jon Arryn was rightly rewarded for being one of the three leaders of the Rebellion. Without his support there would be no King Robert.

At no point does he say what Renly should have received, that Renly should have gotten Dragonstone. It is all about him.

Being Hand is totally different from any other position save King. The amount of power invested in the Hand is vast compared to the mainly advisory positions of the rest of the Council. The Hand rules when the King isn't there.

 

 

As was Renly. They were both holding the siege as were many others. It was not all down to the teenage Stannis.

Then prove it. According to the author:

The stormlands have lots of trees and rocks and rain.

We have no idea which Lordship generates more revenue, having more land means little otherwise the North would be the many times richer than the Westerlands.

What reward did Hoster receive from Robert?

Hoster did more to make Robert King than Stannis did and yet Robert gave more to Stannis.

 

Stannis was the leader of the siege, Renly was a non combatant. 

The number of soldiers a fiefdom can field gives us a good hint of how rich it is. 30k is way more than 5k especially taking into consideration how little cavalry Stannis has. 

Hoster received his reward from Jon Arryn who was supporting Robert. Same thing with the Westerlings getting Tarbeck Hall from Tywin. Not every reward has to flow from Robert.