Stannis' Dragonstone

[Sullen]

Robert had sex during the wedding night in Stannis' room. 

That's a deliberate provocation. 

Robert was likely drunk as a hog, I'd say it's considerably more likely that he didn't think about the consequences of his actions rather than him deliberately planning to antagonize his brother by ruining his wedding.

 

Being Hand is totally different from any other position save King. The amount of power invested in the Hand is vast compared to the mainly advisory positions of the rest of the Council. The Hand rules when the King isn't there.

Yes, being Hand is being given more authority than any of the other council positions, but fact is, the other council positions are also given a vast amount of power over the other lords of the Realm.

Being Master of Ships was a great privilege, not a burden. It's being given a nice three-stories house in a nice neighbourhood compared to the Hand's manor in a gated community.

Hoster received his reward from Jon Arryn who was supporting Robert. Same thing with the Westerlings getting Tarbeck Hall from Tywin. Not every reward has to flow from Robert.

Jon Arryn sealing an alliance with the marriage of Lysa is not a reward, it's how alliances work.

The number of soldiers a fiefdom can field gives us a good hint of how rich it is. 30k is way more than 5k especially taking into consideration how little cavalry Stannis has. 

The number of ships a fiefdom can raise gives us a good hint as to how rich a region is as well.

The North and the Iron Isles would both like to have a word with you as far as manpower = richness goes, by the way.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 

Robert was likely drunk as a hog, I'd say it's considerably more likely that he didn't think about the consequences of his actions rather than him deliberately planning to antagonize his brother by ruining his wedding.

 

I really doubt that makes Robert's actions any less bad from any POV.

 

 

The number of ships a fiefdom can raise gives us a good hint as to how rich a region is as well.

The North and the Iron Isles would both like to have a word with you as far as manpower = richness goes, by the way.

The North isn't poor in absolute terms. It is poor compared to it's size because it is roughly as big as the Reach, Westerlands, Stormlands and Riverlands combined. 

Still the North is a big and powerful region with a big and powerful army.

The Iron Isles are an exception due to their culture.

 

Besides Dragonstone doesn't have that many ships. Stannis has some fifty war galleys of his own which he supplements with 20 Myrish mercenary vessels and Saan's fleet. 

His own sustainable capabilities are only equal to King's Landing and a quarter of the Redwyne fleet. 

Not exactly earth shattering.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 

 

No way, despite Renlys insistence, people care about the law. Tyrell has no claim, nor does Lannister; Robert only sat on the throne because of his great grandmother. 

If people cared about the law then Mace and the other Recah Lords would not have supported Renly.

Making yourself as strong as possible is a good idea. You have yet to give a reason why Robert should have not married or picked a less beautiful bride or a bride from a less powerful House. Not one reason

 

Anyone is better. The most powerful lord is already one to be feared, elevating them to Kingslanding is just feeding the ambitious. 

Then name them and explain why. The family of the Queen will naturally become ambitious and seek more favor, just look at the Seymours and Boelyns.

Both the rich and the poor Houses will become ambitious. Are you suggesting Incest?

 

"Many strong heirs"  Henry jr, I don't know much, he seems like an impationt traitor, and a failure at that. But he was backed by Anjou troops (bad marriage), so at least he was a mamas boy. Richard was a terrible king, he sold much to fail in his wannabe genocide. John was somehow worse then Richard, giving up his power to the Lords. All princes were enticed to bad politics by their mom, plus Anjou was hated by the rest of Henrys realm.

Do you know why this was a monumentally stupid example? Because Henry II marrying into a strong marriage had no negative affect. His marriage and reign was far more successful than his predecessors.

If you want to use an example do so were the marriage to a strong House clearly shows why the alternative was more successful in other generations.

So, that example, my other two also; Pretty much the entire eastern Han dynasty (200 years) had the wives moms and in laws pulling strings and succession. The first Empress of Rome, the Lady Livia, was from an immensely powerful family, and put her family on the throne, not Augustus'. The war of roses is another example of family members fighting rich family.

I know little of the Han dynasty but Livia is not a great example. Augustus pretty much butchered most of the nobility so it is not really a like for comparison. Furthermore her children got the throne because Augustus, like his predecessor, was okay with his heir not being his son. He was happy enough to adopt heirs as Romans were in that period.

 

That was 30 years ago. The Realms delight was the heir acknowledged by the king, as his soul was leaving his body his powerful wifes family consorted in heavy politics.

Yes, and they used that Grand Council for their reasoning. So yet another poor example. Are you even trying?

 

There was civil war because random houses felt entitled to help rule through their family.

No. Silly argument.

snip/

 

Sullen beat me to it.

[Sullen]

I really doubt that makes Robert's actions any less bad from any POV.

Don't be daft, of course intention has to do with how bad an action is.

There's a vast difference between humiliating your brother because you're a drunken buffoon and willingly humiliating him for shits and giggles.

The North isn't poor in absolute terms. It is poor compared to it's size because it is roughly as big as the Reach, Westerlands, Stormlands and Riverlands combined. 

Still the North is a big and powerful region with a big and powerful army.

It's poor in comparison to its population as well, not just to its size.

It's got a big and powerful army, but with the exception of the Manderlys, it really isn't that rich at the end of the day.

The Iron Isles are an exception due to their culture.

The Iron Isles are an exception because the land is poor and thus they can't relay on trade to save their asses.

In comparison, the Narrow Sea oversees pretty much all of the Essossi trade that goes to the capital.

His own sustainable capabilities are only equal to King's Landing and a quarter of the Redwyne fleet. 

Not exactly earth shattering.

Mate, that gives him the third most powerful navy in the Realm, how exactly is that not game changing?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Besides Dragonstone doesn't have that many ships. Stannis has some fifty war galleys of his own which he supplements with 20 Myrish mercenary vessels and Saan's fleet. 

His own sustainable capabilities are only equal to King's Landing and a quarter of the Redwyne fleet. 

Not exactly earth shattering.

 

His fleet is comparable to the Redwyne Fleet, not a quarter of it.

However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros.

 

Robert made him hugely powerful.

 

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

His fleet is comparable to the Redwyne Fleet, not a quarter of it.

However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros.

 

Robert made him hugely powerful.

 

The Rewynes have 200 ships. Stannis had 50Ish without mercenaries. 

Part of the Royal Fleet remained in King's Landing and didn't go with Stannis. 

 

 

[Drogonthedread]

Are people comparing stannis with Ned and hoster ...the people who fought and bled in the actual war than sitting inside a castle....yes he was under siege ...but i thought mace was just doing a mummers farce there ...isnt he waiting like tywin to choose sidessides till he knows  which side takes the upper hand ..isnt that the reason he didn't send his army to rhaegar but kept to himself ...I might be wrong here though .....but comparing stannis with Ned and hoster who were the leaders of rebellion is ridiculous

...You know what's the better comparison would be Benjen stark who held winter fell but didn't expect any reward from his brother ...joined NW

[All-Seeing Aye]

I think it was, in an underhanded way, a recognition of Stannis's competence.  Cressen notes that Dragonstone required a man to rule, and Stannis (unlike Renly, who was a child at the time) was a core part of the rebel leadership.  If Dragonstone didn't go to a Baratheon as part of the new regime, then it might be hard to pacify and put down former loyalists like the Velaryons.

That's not to say that Robert didn't give Renly Storm's End as a slight to Stannis,  but Stannis getting Dragonstone was implicitly a recognition that at that moment he was Robert's heir and was competent enough to hold a formerly loyalist region.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The Rewynes have 200 ships. Stannis had 50Ish without mercenaries. 

How was he able to afford these mercenaries? Through his brothers generosity.

And he had more than 50. He had 60 warships alone from the Royal Fleet and the Narrow seas as well 70 other ships from his lands. The rest of his fleet was mercenaries, mercenaries that he was only able to afford through the lands his brother had given him.

As the author states the Royal Fleet is comparable to the Ironborn and Redwyne fleets.

Part of the Royal Fleet remained in King's Landing and didn't go with Stannis. 

Just like part of the Stormlords stayed neutral against the Crown. I am not seeing your point. Stannis did not give intentionally give his brothers the means to topple him, that would be ridiculous, Both brothers would have resources that would not be used against their King or his heirs.

In Stannis' case that meant not being able to use the whole Royal fleet to attack the King and in Renly's case it meant Lords like Lord Swann staying neutral.

[Hugorfonics]

If people cared about the law then Mace and the other Recah Lords would not have supported Renly.

Making yourself as strong as possible is a good idea. You have yet to give a reason why Robert should have not married or picked a less beautiful bride or a bride from a less powerful House. Not one reason

Then name them and explain why. The family of the Queen will naturally become ambitious and seek more favor, just look at the Seymours and Boelyns.

Both the rich and the poor Houses will become ambitious. Are you suggesting Incest?

Do you know why this was a monumentally stupid example? Because Henry II marrying into a strong marriage had no negative affect. His marriage and reign was far more successful than his predecessors.

If you want to use an example do so were the marriage to a strong House clearly shows why the alternative was more successful in other generations.

I know little of the Han dynasty but Livia is not a great example. Augustus pretty much butchered most of the nobility so it is not really a like for comparison. Furthermore her children got the throne because Augustus, like his predecessor, was okay with his heir not being his son. He was happy enough to adopt heirs as Romans were in that period.

Yes, and they used that Grand Council for their reasoning. So yet another poor example. Are you even trying?

No. Silly argument.

 

Sullen beat me to it.

 

 The reach lords supported Renly because of Renlys claim, everyone cares about the law, it's just interpreted. 

Yea dude, I keep giving you your one reason. Feadulism is a pyramid structure, if the middle is stronger then the top, there's a discrepancy in the system. Elevating them to the top is a sure way of them taking the throne, which they did. (Why so much emphasis on beauty? I like blondes too but we're discussing politics.) 

The Seymours and Boelyns were rich, and Henry VIII redefined politics, things were different. 

Lol not incest. And certainly not a smallflok, but maybe some Walda or a donishwomen or Sylesse or a cousin, or some Northerner or Stormlady. I agree the family's bound to be ambitious, but as long as their not backed by one of the great houses it's safe.

Henry II was more successful because he's a boss. Robert had a nice reign too. Problem with dynasties, is its more then one. Henry IIs policies on waging war with his sons caused drastic problems. Richard and John, both Elanors puppets, had the worst reigns in (I say this as a non englisjman) the history of England. 

(Han dynasty is great stuff. Wiki Cao Cao, he's very entertaining, even cooler than the Henrys)

Augustus was relatively peaceful during his first marriage, the blood started spilling after Livia. Caesar was sterile or something, but Augustus' family was murdered and banished, to the benifit of Livias. Augustus entire reign was about the same amount of time as his four horrendous Claudian successors.

War of roses?

But they're reasoning would hold no water if they didn't command the two biggest cities in Westeros! I am trying but you don't seem to understand basic Feadulism.

Yes, obvious answer?

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 The reach lords supported Renly because of Renlys claim, everyone cares about the law, it's just interpreted. 

His claim comes behind 4/5 other people. Robert usurped the throne, the Tyrells were happy to support someone else doing the same. They don't care about the law that much, or clearly the Reach Lords would never have supported Renly.

 

Yea dude, I keep giving you your one reason. Feadulism is a pyramid structure, if the middle is stronger then the top, there's a discrepancy in the system. Elevating them to the top is a sure way of them taking the throne, which they did. (Why so much emphasis on beauty? I like blondes too but we're discussing politics.) 

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

You mention that a marriage alliance with the Lannisters was a bad idea. Name these better prospects and please explain why they are better.

A new King who has just usurped his throne needs strong allies to keep it. This is just common sense. It is spelled out in the book

And Cersei … I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne,"

Roberts kingdom was not secure, getting the Westerlands on side goes along way to securing it. Explain why Jon Arryn was wrong for thinking this?

 

The Seymours and Boelyns were rich, and Henry VIII redefined politics, things were different. 

No they were not. The Boelyns especially not. Thomas Boleyn was a greedy diplomat constantly looking out for himself, his greed and pettiness was legendary. There is a famous story about the transfer of  Durham lands between him and Wolsey when Boelyn knew the exact figure that 6 months profits should be.

The Boelyns became rich because of there association with Henry, first with Mary and then with Anne.

The Seymours too were hardly rich. Ferdinand and Isabella were rich, the Boelyns and Seymours were not. Not until both families used their marriage to Henry to feather their own nests.

Lol not incest. And certainly not a smallflok, but maybe some Walda or a donishwomen or Sylesse or a cousin, or some Northerner or Stormlady. I agree the family's bound to be ambitious, but as long as their not backed by one of the great houses it's safe.

LOL Walda Frey instead of Cersei Lannister? Now I know you are taking the piss.

Robert wants to add legitimacy to his reign, he is going to marry as high as possible, not a Frey, not a Northerner who has a different faith to the majority of his realm and not a Stormlander who he should already have his support.

All it takes is for him to marry one of your, frankly silly, suggestions and for a Lannister to marry a Tyrell or Hightower to put his new dynasty in danger.

Henry II was more successful because he's a boss. Robert had a nice reign too. Problem with dynasties, is its more then one. Henry IIs policies on waging war with his sons caused drastic problems. Richard and John, both Elanors puppets, had the worst reigns in (I say this as a non englisjman) the history of England. 

What was your point. Henry's marriage was successful. It did not endanger him. Without that marriage he would never have been King as long as he was.

A strong marriage alliance meant the end to the Anarchy.

(Han dynasty is great stuff. Wiki Cao Cao, he's very entertaining, even cooler than the Henrys)

I have already seen some of the Three Kingdoms. I'm not sure how much is real and legend. Nor do I think that period in China is a great comparison to the medieval world GRRM uses for his template.

Augustus was relatively peaceful during his first marriage, the blood started spilling after Livia. Caesar was sterile or something, but Augustus' family was murdered and banished, to the benifit of Livias. Augustus entire reign was about the same amount of time as his four horrendous Claudian successors.

You are kidding right? Octavius was far far worse than Tywin. He was ruthless long before he married Livia. We only have to look at how he treated Julia.

And again, you are missing the point, at this point Augustus had basically decimated the Roman nobility. His family were far, far more prominent than any other. Marrying a strong House had nothing to do with her ruthlessness, they were all following Augustus' example.

War of roses?

eh?

But they're reasoning would hold no water if they didn't command the two biggest cities in Westeros! I am trying but you don't seem to understand basic Feadulism.

 

I'm sorry. But I have no idea what part of my original point this was supposed to be answering. I'm going to chalk it up to yest another Myrcella comment from you.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

How was he able to afford these mercenaries? Through his brothers generosity.

And he had more than 50. He had 60 warships alone from the Royal Fleet and the Narrow seas as well 70 other ships from his lands. The rest of his fleet was mercenaries, mercenaries that he was only able to afford through the lands his brother had given him.

As the author states the Royal Fleet is comparable to the Ironborn and Redwyne fleets.

Just like part of the Stormlords stayed neutral against the Crown. I am not seeing your point. Stannis did not give intentionally give his brothers the means to topple him, that would be ridiculous, Both brothers would have resources that would not be used against their King or his heirs.

In Stannis' case that meant not being able to use the whole Royal fleet to attack the King and in Renly's case it meant Lords like Lord Swann staying neutral.

The ordinary ships can't be counted in the same category as dedicated warships since they bring money. By comparison the Redwynes have a thousand merchant ships- so once again big disparity. 

As for Stannis being able to afford ships only due to lands offered- well duh. Kings usually try to set their younger brothers with lands. Daemon Targaryen got his brother to fund an invasion despite Daemon being a total prick. Orys Baratheon received the Stromlands from his half brother, even Kevan Lannister (whose brother wasn't a king) got a lordship for his son, Garlan Tyrell got rewarded the Florent lands and Ned Stark talked about giving Bran and Rickon keeps and lands when they grow older. Looking after your family members isn't something that makes one extremely special- it just makes Robert not a dick.

Stannis commanded the siege of Storm's End in his teens (both Master Cressen and the Night's Watch smith are pretty clear on this point). He then built a fleet at his brother's command and took Dragonstone. In return for that and numerous other contributions (like defeating the bloody Ironborn at sea!!!) he was treated far worse than Renly who did absolutely nothing to help Robert.  

 

Maybe Dragonstone wasn't originally intended as a slight. Maybe.

But there's no way of denying that Robert's appalling behavior was a slight. Stannis was the only man besides Jon Arryn who actually aided Robert in ruling the Seven Kingdoms. He received basically nothing for the trouble.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

The ordinary ships can't be counted in the same category as dedicated warships since they bring money. By comparison the Redwynes have a thousand merchant ships- so once again big disparity. 

No, it is not. Well not according to the author. If your don't like that the Royal Fleet is on a similar level to the Redwyne fleet take it up with him.

However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet

We don't know the full extent of the Royal Navy as Stannis chose to rebel against the Throne splitting their loyalties just as Renly did the the same with the Stormlords.

 

As for Stannis being able to afford ships only due to lands offered- well duh.

Thank you. That is what we have been telling you yet you still want to argue the point. That is the pertinent point. Stannis' power is all down the generosity and influence of his brother.

Stannis commanded the siege of Storm's End in his teens (both Master Cressen and the Night's Watch smith are pretty clear on this point).

Just like Bran was in charge at Winterfell. Stannis was a teenager, he may have been nominally in charge thanks to his birth but there would have been other, more experienced men doing the leading.

Robert, quite fairly, may have spread the credit around on this 'victory' rather than give it all to his teenage brother.

He then built a fleet at his brother's command and took Dragonstone.

He failed though. He was supposed to capture the Targs and he failed. That is what we know, the cold hard facts.

Perhaps, and this seems quite likely, Robert was not that impressed with Robert building a navy using funds given to him by his brother. He is not physically doing it himself and perhaps taking an islands that was already surrendering and trying to capture the Targaryen Princes is not much of a victory.

Stannis had already been rewarded by Robert for Dragstone by being made Master of Ships and he failed hos first task.

In return for that and numerous other contributions (like defeating the bloody Ironborn at sea!!!)

This makes no sense. Storms End was given to Renly before the Greyjoy Rebellion, not afterwards. Renly at Storms End was a good idea, it got the Tyrells and the Reach Lords closer to the Kingdom.

Politically it makes more sense for someone like Renly to be in charge there rather than Stannis.

 

 he was treated far worse than Renly who did absolutely nothing to help Robert.  

Far worse? Needless hyperbole. He was treated similar,not far worse.

Maybe Dragonstone wasn't originally intended as a slight. Maybe.

Again, the author makes it clear that this was Robert being generous.

But there's no way of denying that Robert's appalling behavior was a slight.

Yes there is. Plenty of us are doing so in this thread.

Appalling behaviour!?! LOL

He was greatly rewarded.

 

Stannis was the only man besides Jon Arryn who actually aided Robert in ruling the Seven Kingdoms.

What Drivel!

Plenty of others aided him, just because Stannis or you can not recognise their contribution does not mean that they did not aide Robert.

 

He received basically nothing for the trouble.

Apart from becoming one of the most powerful Lords in the Kingdom and having a hugely influential position on the Small Council.

 

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

Just like Bran was in charge at Winterfell. Stannis was a teenager, he may have been nominally in charge thanks to his birth but there would have been other, more experienced men doing the leading.

Robert, quite fairly, may have spread the credit around on this 'victory' rather than give it all to his teenage brother.

 

Erm... not it's pretty clear that Stannis was making the decisions with Penrose and Cressen as lieutenants/advisors.

 

This makes no sense. Storms End was given to Renly before the Greyjoy Rebellion, not afterwards. Renly at Storms End was a good idea, it got the Tyrells and the Reach Lords closer to the Kingdom.

Politically it makes more sense for someone like Renly to be in charge there rather than Stannis.

 

Renly was given Storm's End when he was a child. Penrose acted as castellan.

Of course Stannis is going to be resentful with Renly getting the bigger prize when Renly has done absolutely nothing to deserve it. Besides as proven Stannis only rebelled after finding out about the incest while Renly was perfectly willing to manipulate Robert way before that in order to advance Tyrell interests.

Yes there is. Plenty of us are doing so in this thread.

Appalling behaviour!?! LOL

He was greatly rewarded.

So what happened during Stannis' wedding wasn't a slight?

Plenty of others aided him, just because Stannis or you can not recognise their contribution does not mean that they did not aide Robert.

Name one.

Jon Arryn and Stannis were the only guys in King's Landing who did their jobs. Varys was plotting for Aegon, Pycelle was plotting for the Lannisters, Renly was plotting for the Tyrells, Littlefinger was plotting for Littlefinger. I suppose Ser Barristan was also doing what he was supposed to do but the LC of the Kingsguard has a far more limited role compared to the other Small Council members.

Stannis is a pretty crap liege lord by any objective standard but as a vassal he's worth his weight in gold. Problem is Robert was crap at judging character and ruling in general (which is why he ended up getting gutted by a boar).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Erm... not it's pretty clear that Stannis was making the decisions with Penrose and Cressen as lieutenants/advisors.

No, it is not. We know very little of what happened so it is pointless making up shit to fit your agenda of poor downtrodden Stannis.

When is Penrose mentioned to have been there?

For all we know there was  a Rodrik Cassel equivalent who was organizing and leading but technically under Stannis thanks to him being Robert's brother rather than teenage Stannis being a great leader.

 

 

Renly was given Storm's End when he was a child.

Renly was given it 13 years ago.

Renly!" He spat out the name like poison on his tongue.

"Your brother has been the Lord of Storm's End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—"

 

This would have been before the Greyjoy Rebellion and after Stannis had failed Robert in catching the Targaryens on Dragonstone.

 

Penrose acted as castellan.

We don't know for how long. It may have been a recent appointment, it may have been a long standing one. We simply do not know.

 

Of course Stannis is going to be resentful with Renly getting the bigger prize when Renly has done absolutely nothing to deserve it.

They both survived a siege,. Only one of them failed at Dragonstone. At the point when Robert was generous with them neither had really done more than the other.

And we have little idea who got the bigger prize, as ahas been repeatedly pointed out, we have no idea the incomes of the two Lordships.

 

Besides as proven Stannis only rebelled after finding out about the incest while

You mean Stannis sat at Dragonstone and failed to warn his brother for almost a year? He was derelict in his duty to his brother and king.

He has no real evidence and he is still trying to usurp his nephews throne. Either he believed them to be bastards in which case he should have told his brother or he does not have enough evidence in which case he is no better than Renly.

 

Renly was perfectly willing to manipulate Robert way before that in order to advance Tyrell interests.

Which has little do with this discussion. Robert can not see into the future, if he could I imagine he would be more pissed off with Stannis who deliberately didn't help him.

That is what Robert's generosity got Robert, a brother who was happy to sit back at Dragonstone waiting for him to die.

So what happened during Stannis' wedding wasn't a slight?

No. Do you think every time a bridesmaid has sex over the course of a wedding weekend it is a slight on the groom?

Name one.

Ned  played  a huge part in making him King and governed the North, sending him taxes and answering his summons when Balon Greyjoy rebelled.

Tywin played a smaller part in making him King, governed the West, sending him taxes as well as borrowing him large sums of money and answered his summoned when Balon Greyjoy rebelled.

Mace Tyrell governed the South, sent him taxes borrowed him money and answered his summons when Blaon Greyjoy rebelled giving him the Redwyne fleet to help defeat the Ironborn rebellion.

Renly Baratheon governed the Stormlands, sent him taxes and repaired relationships with the Reach Lords while serving as Robert's Maser of Laws and helped run the Kingdom. Unlike his brother Stannis who disappeared for almost a year Renly stayed and helped rule the Kingdom.

Hoster Tully played a big part in making him King (much bigger than Stannis) governed the Riverlands and sent him taxes.

I could go on as many others aided Robert in running the Kingdom. Your claim that Stannis and Robert were the only two people is rather idiotic.

 

Jon Arryn and Stannis were the only guys in King's Landing who did their jobs.

According to who?? Stannis?

So then were was Small Council member Stannis for the last year? Doing his job in Kings Landing or sulking on Dragonstone because Ned was made Hand?

[bent branch]

No, it is not. We know very little of what happened so it is pointless making up shit to fit your agenda of poor downtrodden Stannis.

When is Penrose mentioned to have been there?

For all we know there was  a Rodrik Cassel equivalent who was organizing and leading but technically under Stannis thanks to him being Robert's brother rather than teenage Stannis being a great leader.

 

 

You are aware that Stannis is only one year younger than Robert, right? It has been made more than clear that Stannis was the one in charge at Storm's End during the siege. It has also been made abundantly clear that Stannis is considered one of the best military leaders in Westeros. You are the one making up shit to advance your own agenda. Since you're not willing to concede even the facts known from the story I don't know why anyone is even bothering with you.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

You are aware that Stannis is only one year younger than Robert, right?

Two years. Robert was born in 262, Stannis 264.

And Robert himself had help. Fantastic, charismatic leader but he did not lead the Rebellion all by himself, he had strong guidance from Jon Arryn.

 

It has been made more than clear that Stannis was the one in charge at Storm's End during the siege.

With no help? With no senior and experienced leaders helping him?

 

It has also been made abundantly clear that Stannis is considered one of the best military leaders in Westeros.

Who is claiming otherwise?

 

You are the one making up shit to advance your own agenda.

What have I made up. Name them and examples from the book showing how it is wrong.

 

 

Since you're not willing to concede even the facts known from the story I don't know why anyone is even bothering with you.

What facts?

[bent branch]

Two years. Robert was born in 262, Stannis 264.

And Robert himself had help. Fantastic, charismatic leader but he did not lead the Rebellion all by himself, he had strong guidance from Jon Arryn.

With no help? With no senior and experienced leaders helping him?

Who is claiming otherwise?

What have I made up. Name them and examples from the book showing how it is wrong.

 

What facts?

AGOT-Chapter 27:

...Robert's lusts were the subject of ribald drinking songs throughout the realm, but Stannis was a different sort of man; a bare year younger than the king, yet utterly unlike him, stern, humorless, unforgiving, grim in his sense of duty.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

AGOT-Chapter 27:

 

It had to be more than a year. Ned made an easy mistake, perhaps becuase of Stannis' maturity compared to Roberts immaturity.

 

"I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six" -Stannis Baratheon

So Stannis himself contradicts Ned, stating that age difference is more than 'barely a year'.

 

Yet even as Aerys donned his crown, in that fateful year of 262 AC, a lusty blackhaired son named Robert had just been born to his cousin Steffon Baratheon and his lady wife at Storm's End, whilst far to the north at Winterfell, Lord Rickard Stark celebrated the birth of his own son, Brandon.- World of Ice and Fire

 

World book puts Robert being born in 262. A Maester would know the facts better than Ned.

 

"I remember another stripling who was given command of Storm's End. He could not have been much more than twenty." -Stannis no1 fanboy Davos

The siege takes place in 282/283, thus Stannis was born in 264. So, around a two year difference between the ages of the brothers.

[bent branch]

It had to be more than a year. Ned made an easy mistake, perhaps becuase of Stannis' maturity compared to Roberts immaturity.

 

"I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six" -Stannis Baratheon

So Stannis himself contradicts Ned, stating that age difference is more than 'barely a year'.

 

Yet even as Aerys donned his crown, in that fateful year of 262 AC, a lusty blackhaired son named Robert had just been born to his cousin Steffon Baratheon and his lady wife at Storm's End, whilst far to the north at Winterfell, Lord Rickard Stark celebrated the birth of his own son, Brandon.- World of Ice and Fire

 

World book puts Robert being born in 262. A Maester would know the facts better than Ned.

 

"I remember another stripling who was given command of Storm's End. He could not have been much more than twenty." -Stannis no1 fanboy Davos

The siege takes place in 282/283, thus Stannis was born in 264. So, around a two year difference between the ages of the brothers.

When my sister and I were younger, she used to go around telling everyone that she was only a year younger than me. You see, I was born in January of one year and she was born in November of the following year. Now, most people would say that 23 months difference is closer to two years rather than one, but my sister wanted to make our ages closer. Now we are both on the high side of fifty, she emphasizes that we are TWO years apart in age.

The point of this little story is that the actual years of birth don't tell the whole story. Go to the discussion on how Stannis' year of birth was figured in the Wiki. It explains how Stannis' year of birth could be two years after Robert's while at the same time they are only a little over one year apart. I personally don't want to waste my time explaining anything more to you, because you aren't open to a two way discussion. You just want to state your opinion and disparage other people's opinions.