Stannis' Dragonstone

[Fat Mac]

I fully agree, moreover it is hardly like Stannis was the only one that has been providing a service and duty for Robert.  For example, Ned and the Tullys helped Robert win the throne and have worked to rule to major regions yet neither of them received any rewards or royal appointments for their service until Robert names Ned to be Hand.  Tywin is Robert's Father-in-law, practically funding his kingdom, and one of the former most respected Hand since likely Baelor Breakspear yet he wasn't named Hand.  Renly, Littlefinger, Selmy, and Pycelle have served Robert on the Small Council with Renly also being Robert's brother yet none of them were named Hand.  Yet, none of these parties seem to complain and be bitter about Robert not naming them Hand after Jon's death.  While, Stannis verbally expresses his bitterness about it even when offering his condolences to Ned's grieving widow.  Seriously, why does Stannis have the right to the position of Hand than all of these individuals?

Stannis isn't particularly difficult to understand. The reason he believes he should be hand is because he feels he deserves it. And before all of you run off and call him entitled, you have to look at the context of why he feels that way.

Stannis has known Robert longer than anyone else is Robert's life. That includes Ned. Stannis and Robert are brothers, yet Stannis is overlooked by Robert in favor of Ned. But Ned Stark wasn't at Robert's side for 15 consecutive years while Robert whored and ate his way through kingship, Stannis was. Ned couldn't stomach months at Robert's side, while Stannis stomached a decade and a half.

And while Stannis and Robert didn't like each other, they loved each other and Stannis was nothing but loyal. Stannis starved, Stannis fought and Stannis governed all in his brothers name, and was by his side for most of it.

So yes, when JA died perhaps Stannis was a little disgruntled when Robert chose to give the job to a guy who lived 2000 miles away that he hadn't seen in ten years over the guy that had been by his side his entire life.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It's everything else we seem to disagree on. No - I don't believe some 'other' could of defeated the Iron Born in their own waters. There may have been other candidates - I don't know who they are, can you name any LittleDragonThatCould? I think it's fair that you provide other candidates as I'm more than happy with mine!

Providing other candidates would require a lot more information than we have been given. We don't know much about the Rebel army outside of the four commanders and a handful of people after that.

The three most qualified people to name as Master of Ships are ruled out because they fought for the Targs (Velaryon and Redwyne) and Quellon/Balon because Robert had no relationship with them. Appointing a Greyjoy would have been a genius move on his part, but he was logically going to appoint people he knew.

Royce or Hoster would probably have been good appointments and we have no reason to think they would have failed.

Stannis was the best candidate not because of his ability or leadership but because he was the Kings brother. That is what conquering Kings usually do, give power to their family and friends so they can maintain their position.

Serve on the small council? We're not talking about who'd be alright on the small council at least, I wasn't. We need a Lord/Prince of DS. You proposed Joffrey, I insist that it only be Stannis. He's ticking every box and he didn't have to be 'likable', it was a Targ stronghold. Again; I'm satisfied with my candidate; Stannis. I'm sure any number of Lords would jump at a place on the SC. What kind of job they can do and who they're doing for is another matter entirely but worth considering all-the-same.

I actually didn't.

The author stated that he could have kept it for his son and that it was only Roberts careless generosity that gave it away. Robert did a nice thing for his brother and Stannis resents him because it was not nice enough.

 

Quick edit: I should also mention that I do not believe Joff had anyone of the same measure as Jon Arryn or Stannis Baratheon to assist nor did he even have the decency to acknowledge these types of men worthy. Joff, himself is a catspaw. You don't give a catspaw a catspaw, see: Cersei.

Tywin  and Kevan ?

[Dolorous22]

Providing other candidates would require a lot more information than we have been given. We don't know much about the Rebel army outside of the four commanders and a handful of people after that.

The three most qualified people to name as Master of Ships are ruled out because they fought for the Targs (Velaryon and Redwyne) and Quellon/Balon because Robert had no relationship with them. Appointing a Greyjoy would have been a genius move on his part, but he was logically going to appoint people he knew.

Royce or Hoster would probably have been good appointments and we have no reason to think they would have failed.

Stannis was the best candidate not because of his ability or leadership but because he was the Kings brother. That is what conquering Kings usually do, give power to their family and friends so they can maintain their position.

I don't disagree with any of this (aside from the IB proposal) But I don't think it changes anything either. The point is, Stannis did it, and he did it well. He may of inherited the duties or he may of begged for them. Either way there was no guarantee of success. Not every Lord has a competent brother to delegate tasks too either. I appreciate that Balon was doomed to fail eventually. but, as it happens, the situation was resolved rather quickly. Is it asking too much for the general consensus to be: Yep, well done Stan. Instead, I read comments that write it off as no contribution at all and it is that mentality that I think is most destructive to the story. It is an event that shaped the character, not a jaunt to the local tavern. 

The IronBorn suggestion isn't a bad one. I say, Balon would of seen it as weakness or proof of the weakness he already suspected. He wasn't interested in the 7K so I don't see that panning out. 
 

The author stated that he could have kept it for his son and that it was only Roberts careless generosity that gave it away. Robert did a nice thing for his brother and Stannis resents him because it was not nice enough.

"Nice enough"? I'm not sure if that's true, I don't think he was looking for nice, it's not a word associated with Stannis. 
The brothers had very different ideas but I'd say the key word in the comment above is 'careless'. It made sense to Robert as a generous gift that doesn't mean Stannis had to value it the same. Stannis encounters this first-hand with JS at the wall when beseeching him to accept legitimization and inherit WF. Do you understand why Stannis wanted JS so badly? It wasn't because Stannis was being nice or because it was the right thing to do. Though he may of felt he was being generous, the truth is, Stannis needed Jon to take that position. 

At that point in time, Stannis is offering Jon something that we know Stannis values very highly. The family seat and the seat of tWotN and legitimization. But Jon values something greater. The crux of the matter is that we know Jon. We're privy to his inner workings and sympathetic to his needs (not all love him but he plays the role of hero in our story) a luxury we do not have with Stannis. We don't call JS stupid or ungrateful, we know that is not his nature.

The situations aren't identical. Neither party feels too aggrieved but what I would like to draw attention to is that Stannis wasn't petulant, didn't throw a fit or stop speaking to him. Instead, he does something much different. If he were the petulant, flippant child that certain posters make him out to be, he would of stormed off to the Dreadfort and died.

Now maybe that tells us that either Stannis changed or we were misinformed about his true feelings. It is anything but an open-shut case, for me.  

 

 

Tywin  and Kevan ?

1. Are you saying that if you were Robert, you would consider putting DS in the hands of the Lannisters? 
2. Do you think it's appropriate to to put the man responsible for sacking KL (or his known affiliates) in charge of the last Targ stronghold? 

I'm starting to like the idea of dumping both Cersei and Joff on DS with a castellan but I can't imagine Cersei going quietly. It may of been a catalyst for her treachery. Plus Tywin may of been the feeling 'slighted'.... I think somebody was going to feel slighted by Westerossi politics with a new regime. 

[Dolorous22]

 

I actually didn't.

 

Sorry, you insinuated that Joff would of been no less incapable than Robert himself. Somewhere along the line I mistook it for an actual proposal for Joff at DS. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 

"Nice enough"? I'm not sure if that's true, I don't think he was looking for nice, it's not a word associated with Stannis. 
The brothers had very different ideas but I'd say the key word in the comment above is 'careless'. It made sense to Robert as a generous gift that doesn't mean Stannis had to value it the same. Stannis encounters this first-hand with JS at the wall when beseeching him to accept legitimization and inherit WF. Do you understand why Stannis wanted JS so badly? It wasn't because Stannis was being nice or because it was the right thing to do. Though he may of felt he was being generous, the truth is, Stannis needed Jon to take that position. 

I'm not sure I am getting your point? Robert gave Stannis  generous gifts and in turn Stannis resented that those gifts were not enough. The crux of the point is that Stannis is ungreatful, if Jon was to start thinking that Winterfell was not a good enough gift then you could compare the two.

Secondly the point with Jon makes no sense. Offering Jon Winterfell wins Stannis the support of the North, the same is not true of Stannis and Dragonstone. Far from it. Stannis needed Jon (or even Arnolf Karstark) far more than Robert needed Stannis. It is not even close, seems a silly comparison if I'm being honest.

 We don't call JS stupid or ungrateful, we know that is not his nature.

Because it is a completely different scenario. If Jon refused because he wanted to be made Lord of Winterfell and White Harbor or was pissed that he was not made Stannis' Hand as well then we could be accusing Jon of being ungrateful.

 

Jon actually appreciates the offer, his commitments to the Watch overrule them not some idiotic idea that he deserved more.

1. Are you saying that if you were Robert, you would consider putting DS in the hands of the Lannisters? 
2. Do you think it's appropriate to to put the man responsible for sacking KL (or his known affiliates) in charge of the last Targ stronghold? 

No, I have been quite clear why Robert chose his brother. It makes sense consoloditaing power with his family, a tactic many conquering Kings used. However you stated that Stannis was the only man who could have defeated the Ironborn as Master of Ships. You asked for other suggestions of candiates who could have taken the role. Re-read the discussion we are having and actually look at the quotes I am replying to.

[bent branch]

I don't disagree with any of this (aside from the IB proposal) But I don't think it changes anything either. The point is, Stannis did it, and he did it well. He may of inherited the duties or he may of begged for them. Either way there was no guarantee of success. Not every Lord has a competent brother to delegate tasks too either. I appreciate that Balon was doomed to fail eventually. but, as it happens, the situation was resolved rather quickly. Is it asking too much for the general consensus to be: Yep, well done Stan. Instead, I read comments that write it off as no contribution at all and it is that mentality that I think is most destructive to the story. It is an event that shaped the character, not a jaunt to the local tavern. 

The IronBorn suggestion isn't a bad one. I say, Balon would of seen it as weakness or proof of the weakness he already suspected. He wasn't interested in the 7K so I don't see that panning out. 
 

 

"Nice enough"? I'm not sure if that's true, I don't think he was looking for nice, it's not a word associated with Stannis. 
The brothers had very different ideas but I'd say the key word in the comment above is 'careless'. It made sense to Robert as a generous gift that doesn't mean Stannis had to value it the same. Stannis encounters this first-hand with JS at the wall when beseeching him to accept legitimization and inherit WF. Do you understand why Stannis wanted JS so badly? It wasn't because Stannis was being nice or because it was the right thing to do. Though he may of felt he was being generous, the truth is, Stannis needed Jon to take that position. 

At that point in time, Stannis is offering Jon something that we know Stannis values very highly. The family seat and the seat of tWotN and legitimization. But Jon values something greater. The crux of the matter is that we know Jon. We're privy to his inner workings and sympathetic to his needs (not all love him but he plays the role of hero in our story) a luxury we do not have with Stannis. We don't call JS stupid or ungrateful, we know that is not his nature.

The situations aren't identical. Neither party feels too aggrieved but what I would like to draw attention to is that Stannis wasn't petulant, didn't throw a fit or stop speaking to him. Instead, he does something much different. If he were the petulant, flippant child that certain posters make him out to be, he would of stormed off to the Dreadfort and died.

Now maybe that tells us that either Stannis changed or we were misinformed about his true feelings. It is anything but an open-shut case, for me.  

 

 

1. Are you saying that if you were Robert, you would consider putting DS in the hands of the Lannisters? 
2. Do you think it's appropriate to to put the man responsible for sacking KL (or his known affiliates) in charge of the last Targ stronghold? 

I'm starting to like the idea of dumping both Cersei and Joff on DS with a castellan but I can't imagine Cersei going quietly. It may of been a catalyst for her treachery. Plus Tywin may of been the feeling 'slighted'.... I think somebody was going to feel slighted by Westerossi politics with a new regime. 

I find discussions on Stannis to be very frustrating because of the irrationality of the Stannis haters, but bit that I have shaded blue made me think of another way to address the issue.

Tywin served as Aerys' Hand as it was his duty and privilege to do. Tywin was due only what Aerys chose to give him beyond the honor of being Hand. Yet when Aerys refused the marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei, Tywin felt slighted and disgruntled. Most of the people on this forum agree with Tywin that Aerys somehow OWED it to Tywin to say yes. They don't think Tywin was asking too much to have his grandchildren sit the Iron Throne as a reward for doing his duty. Yet many of these same people would say that Stannis was asking too much to want Robert to give him his HOME as a reward for the excellent service he did for Robert. This just shows their prejudice against Stannis.

As for those who think Dragonstone was a powerful lordship, they don't understand what they are talking about. The power of a lordship rests in how many men they can muster for an army. As far as this goes, Dragonstone is as about as powerful as the Twins. Really, the biggest reason Stannis was at such a disadvantage at the start of the war was because he only controlled the Islands in the Narrow Sea. The army that could be raised there was minuscule.

[Greywind84]

Stannis strikes me as the kind of guy whose never satisfied with his lot in life. Put it this way, if he'd been granted Storms End instead of Dragonstone in the aftermath of Robert's coronation there's no doubt in my mind that he would have felt slighted because he was the heir to the throne and yet didn't hold the Lordship of Dragonstone. Some folks are just never satisfied with their lot in life.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Tywin served as Aerys' Hand as it was his duty and privilege to do. Tywin was due only what Aerys chose to give him beyond the honor of being Hand. Yet when Aerys refused the marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei, Tywin felt slighted and disgruntled. Most of the people on this forum agree with Tywin that Aerys somehow OWED it to Tywin to say yes.

No, they don't. He certainly deserved for it to be considered and Aerys was a fool for dealing with it the way he did but Aerys was free to choose whoever he wanted to marry his son. It was his choice to make.

 

They don't think Tywin was asking too much to have his grandchildren sit the Iron Throne as a reward for doing his duty.

Well no, politically it made sense. The Lannisters were, at the time at least, the most powerful House in the realm. It made sense for Aerys to make that alliance.

Can you point to all these threads of posters making the claims that he deserved it for doing his duty?

Yet many of these same people would say that Stannis was asking too much to want Robert to give him his HOME as a reward for the excellent service he did for Robert. This just shows their prejudice against Stannis.

His home? Is it not also Renlys home and more importantly was it not actually Roberts, and his descendants, home?

As for those who think Dragonstone was a powerful lordship, they don't understand what they are talking about.

This should be good!

 

The power of a lordship rests in how many men they can muster for an army. As far as this goes, Dragonstone is as about as powerful as the Twins.

Nope completely wrong. Stannis was able to raise 5k to the Freys 4k. If that was all he was given then you would have a point but he also has charge of the Royal Navy.

"However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor."

Not only was Stannis given Dragonstone, made Master of Ships he was also given the fealty of Houses Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon and Sunglass. He was even able to give away land in the Stormlands and House Seaworth paid fealty to him rather than Renly.

Is this why Stannis fans feel slighted? Becuase they are only comparing troop numbers and ignoring the Navy?

 

Really, the biggest reason Stannis was at such a disadvantage at the start of the war was because he only controlled the Islands in the Narrow Sea. The army that could be raised there was minuscule.

If Renly did not get along with others he too would have been at a disadvantage as the Stormlands alone would not have stood a chance. He would be in exactly the same position only that the the Stormlords have less reason to rebel against Robert and his sons then the Velaryon and other prominent Targ supporters in the Narrow Sea did.

 

 

[bent branch]

No, they don't. He certainly deserved for it to be considered and Aerys was a fool for dealing with it the way he did but Aerys was free to choose whoever he wanted to marry his son. It was his choice to make.

 

Well no, politically it made sense. The Lannisters were, at the time at least, the most powerful House in the realm. It made sense for Aerys to make that alliance.

Can you point to all these threads of posters making the claims that he deserved it for doing his duty?

His home? Is it not also Renlys home and more importantly was it not actually Roberts, and his descendants, home?

This should be good!

Nope completely wrong. Stannis was able to raise 5k to the Freys 4k. If that was all he was given then you would have a point but he also has charge of the Royal Navy.

"However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor."

Not only was Stannis given Dragonstone, made Master of Ships he was also given the fealty of Houses Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon and Sunglass. He was even able to give away land in the Stormlands and House Seaworth paid fealty to him rather than Renly.

Is this why Stannis fans feel slighted? Becuase they are only comparing troop numbers and ignoring the Navy?

If Renly did not get along with others he too would have been at a disadvantage as the Stormlands alone would not have stood a chance. He would be in exactly the same position only that the the Stormlords have less reason to rebel against Robert and his sons then the Velaryon and other prominent Targ supporters in the Narrow Sea did.

 

 

As I said, you don't know what you are talking about. Stannis did not have control of the royal fleet at the Battle of Blackwater. Stannis had the ships of his vassals and mercenaries. The royal fleet that was destroyed at the Battle of Blackwater was under the command of Tyrion. The royal fleet belonged to Joffrey and once Stannis declared against him the royal fleet wasn't under his control. As far as Dragonstone and the Twins being of a similiar strength, I suppose that Stannis is so much more powerful with his 1.25 men to Walder's 1 (lol). Yes, Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon and Sunglass did give Stannis fealty, but all of those could only raise about 5000 men between them. The Islands of the Narrow Sea are sparsely populated. If Stannis' vassals could raise more men than the 5000, than why was everyone saying he could only raise 5000 men?

Basically, you don't seem to understand how the feudal system works. The armies that answered directly to the throne are those in the Crownlands. The Crownlands could raise about 15,000 men, about 5000 of those from the Islands in the Narrow Sea. Otherwise the crown was dependent upon the armies of the various lords. If said lords refused to send men, than the IT was unable to force them to. When the war broke out, the Stormlands and Reach formed an army in opposition to the throne. The North and Riverlands formed another army in opposition to the throne. Dorne, the Vale, and the Ironborn decided to sit it out. Therefore, The crown only had the 10,000 men left to them after Stannis took the 5000 leal to him and the Westerlands army which Tywin had busy in the Reach. That is what made Tyrion's position so precarious. Yes the royal fleet consisted of all the ships of the lords pledged to the throne, but if those lords didn't choose to support the crown then the crown didn't HAVE a royal fleet. Therefore, the only "navy" the crown had at the beginning of the war was the 50 ships belonging to King's Landing. Please note, that at the outbreak of the war, the Redwyne fleet was under the command of Paxter Redwyne, who was loyal to Mace Tyrell. Yes, Stannis used the approximately 160 ships that owed loyalty to him, but the crown only had those ships as long as Stannis remained loyal to the crown. This was exactly the same deal as every other lord.

Really, the only "power" in Dragonstone was its position as the heir to the throne's seat. Once Stannis was no longer heir, Dragonstone was only a middling level power. This is in opposition to Renly being made a Lord Paramount of an area that could raise an army of about 30,000. Renly's descendants would inherit the position of Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Stannis' heirs would inherit a middling seat in the Narrow Sea. So, yeah, giving Stannis Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End was a kick in the teeth to Stannis. Robert could have chosen to give his brothers nothing and they both probably would have complained about that, but doing it the way he did it Robert pretty much delivered a fuck you to Stannis.

As far as Tywin goes, pretty much everyone on the forum believes that Aerys treated Tywin badly and Tywin had a solid basis for his grudge against the Targaryens. I know this because I have argued that Tywin wasn't treated nearly as badly as he and Pycelle make out and pretty much no one agrees with me. Therefore, if you're trying to argue that Tywin wasn't also a man walking around with a grudge like Stannis or that there are tons of people on this forum who feel he was just a big whiny baby (like they think about Stannis) then you're just arguing a position to try to make yourself right.

Oops, I just remembered. Paxter did stay loyal to the crown because of the twins. However, that doesn't change the fact that Stannis didn't have command over Paxter's ships during the Battle of the Blackwater. Also, most of Paxter's ships were not in KL during the Battle of the Blackwater. That is why he still has so many left.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

As I said, you don't know what you are talking about. Stannis did not have control of the royal fleet at the Battle of Blackwater.

Who do you think makes up the majority of the Royal fleet? It is the ships from Narrow seas as well as Kings Landing. Most of those ships were under Stannis command. Of course he had the majority of the Royal fleet at the Battle of Blackwater.

"It made Tyrion more than a little uneasy to detach so great a part of their already inadequate fleet, depleted as it was by the loss of all those ships that had sailed with Lord Stannis to Dragonstone and never returned"

 

 

 

Stannis had the ships of his vassals and mercenaries.

His vassals are the Royal navy. Tyrion mentions it.

"Out on the river, Bold Wind unshipped her oars and glided downstream in the wake of Seaswift. Last came King Robert's Hammer, the might of the royal fleet . . . or at least that portion that had not fled to Dragonstone last year with Stannis."

 

 

The royal fleet that was destroyed at the Battle of Blackwater was under the command of Tyrion.

That was a small portion of the Royal fleet. Stannis has command of the vast majority of it.

 

  As far as Dragonstone and the Twins being of a similiar strength, I suppose that Stannis is so much more powerful with his 1.25 men to Walder's 1 (lol).

Well you seem to be ignoring the Navy that Stannis has.

 

Yes, Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon and Sunglass did give Stannis fealty, but all of those could only raise about 5000 men between them.

But considerably more boats than the Stromlands could.

The Islands of the Narrow Sea are sparsely populated. If Stannis' vassals could raise more men than the 5000, than why was everyone saying he could only raise 5000 men?

No idea what point you are trying to make here.

Basically, you don't seem to understand how the feudal system works. The armies that answered directly to the throne are those in the Crownlands. The Crownlands could raise about 15,000 men, about 5000 of those from the Islands in the Narrow Sea.

And you don't seem to realize it is not all about soldiers. Stannis was given one of the three largest navies in Westeros as well as lands that would generate 5,000 soldiers. This is a considerable gift.

 

snip

Honestly I was going to respond to the rest of your argument but it seems a little nonsensical.

[bent branch]

Who do you think makes up the majority of the Royal fleet? It is the ships from Narrow seas as well as Kings Landing. Most of those ships were under Stannis command. Of course he had the majority of the Royal fleet at the Battle of Blackwater.

"It made Tyrion more than a little uneasy to detach so great a part of their already inadequate fleet, depleted as it was by the loss of all those ships that had sailed with Lord Stannis to Dragonstone and never returned"

 

 

His vassals are the Royal navy. Tyrion mentions it.

"Out on the river, Bold Wind unshipped her oars and glided downstream in the wake of Seaswift. Last came King Robert's Hammer, the might of the royal fleet . . . or at least that portion that had not fled to Dragonstone last year with Stannis."

That was a small portion of the Royal fleet. Stannis has command of the vast majority of it.

Well you seem to be ignoring the Navy that Stannis has.

But considerably more boats than the Stromlands could.

No idea what point you are trying to make here.

And you don't seem to realize it is not all about soldiers. Stannis was given one of the three largest navies in Westeros as well as lands that would generate 5,000 soldiers. This is a considerable gift.

Honestly I was going to respond to the rest of your argument but it seems a little nonsensical.

You are grossly exaggerating the just what Stannis was given. The "royal fleet" consisted of 160 ships pledged to Dragonstone, 300 ships owned by the Redwynes and 50 ships that belonged to King's Landing. When Stannis was given Dragonstone, he built up those ships as part of the service he owed Robert. The captains of those ships went with Stannis because the ships belonged to Stannis. Being named Master of Ships meant Stannis was in charge of naval policy for the crown, not that he was given all those ships. As long as Stannis and Paxter remained loyal to the throne, the ships under their control remained part of the "royal fleet". Once they turned against the throne those ships were no longer part of the "royal fleet". The Redwynes remained loyal to the throne only because they had the twins as hostages. The quotes you keep giving only show that the royal fleet lost the ships that they would have lost because Stannis turned against the Iron Throne. This is exactly the same as how they lost the 30,000 troops from the Stormlands, the 100,000 troops from the Reach, the 45.000 troops of the North, and the 45,000 troops of the Riverlands. All of these military resources belong to the lords that have command over them. The crown is dependent upon the loyalty of the those lords. I'm sorry you don't seem able to understand how these things work.

Further, you are grossly exaggerating the usefulness of 160 ships when you have only 5000 men to hold any locations they might have taken on land.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You are grossly exaggerating the just what Stannis was given. The "royal fleet" consisted of 160 ships pledged to Dragonstone, 300 ships owned by the Redwynes and 50 ships that belonged to King's Landing.

The Royal Fleet and the Redwyne Fleet are two separate fleets. Here is GRRM talking about them:

However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros.

As we can see from the author, the power that Robert gave Stannis is comparable to that of the Ironborn and the Redwyne. And yet still some of his fans think he was cheated.

 

When Stannis was given Dragonstone, he built up those ships as part of the service he owed Robert. The captains of those ships went with Stannis because the ships belonged to Stannis. Being named Master of Ships meant Stannis was in charge of naval policy for the crown, not that he was given all those ships.

Exaclty. He has Royal Fleet under his command, Robert gave him the resources to build himself a Navy.

 

As long as Stannis and Paxter remained loyal to the throne, the ships under their control remained part of the "royal fleet".

No, you seem to be confused. They are two different Fleets.

Once they turned against the throne those ships were no longer part of the "royal fleet". The Redwynes remained loyal to the throne only because they had the twins as hostages. The quotes you keep giving only show that the royal fleet lost the ships that they would have lost because Stannis turned against the Iron Throne.

Exactly. Those ships were given to Stannis. The majority of the Royal Fleet comes from the Islands of the Narrow Sea, who all swear fealty to Stannis thanks to the incredible generosity of his brother Robert.

 

This is exactly the same as how they lost the 30,000 troops from the Stormlands,

What 30,000 troops from the Stormlands? Were are you getting this from?

the 100,000 troops from the Reach,

Most likely; I'm not sure your point.

 

the 45.000 troops of the North,

We have seen nowhere near that number. About 10k less than that

 

and the 45,000 troops of the Riverlands.

Also about 10k less.

 

All of these military resources belong to the lords that have command over them. The crown is dependent upon the loyalty of the those lords. I'm sorry you don't seem able to understand how these things work.

I undertsand, I am just not seeing your point. A Navy is a hugely valuable commodity and Robert gave Stannis one of the three largest Navies in the kingdom.

Further, you are grossly exaggerating the usefulness of 160 ships when you have only 5000 men to hold any locations they might have taken on land.

I'm not sure what your point is here?

[Drogonthedread]

I agree with those who say stannis will never be satisfied and always ask for more ..

 

And you know what the funny thing is stannis wouldn't have come this far if not for the dragonstone...which gave him Mel and from that I don't have to list what he has gained ..

[Dolorous22]

@TheLittleDragonThatCould
Agree to disagree, I think you've muddled both our opinions to the point where I'll have to tirelessly go back and forth quoting this and that. Which I'm not going to do. I don't have the time nor the inclination and I believe it's taking us off-topic. And I would like to move-on with my comments.

This story is about different perspectives and if you cannot afford yourself the luxury of suspending judgement on a situation you have almost no knowledge of then - fine. We're both speculating, here. I appreciate that most topics descend into some kind of pissing contest but I only wanted to share what I saw and understand what you saw. I feel like we've done that to some degree. Thanks for replying.

For everyone else I'll reiterate my stance: I think that by the time Robert sat his ass on the IT he needed Stannis to keep the realm for him. So Robert gave him a great big "reward". DS - an isolated and not well populated island in the Narrow Sea but with the bonus of fancy titles and much prestige as well as a real responsibility to the realm. An enviable position - or so you'd think. It ain't no pisspot and it isn't a slight - by itself. What does it come with though? First of all, watching Renly take SE after contributing nothing was always going to be hard for Stannis to accept. You can leave it there and move on - many do. But I don't; I think the slight is hidden just out of view.
I'll speculate, I didn't want to. But I'll go for it. 
I think that in Stannis' mind there's a big problem with DS. Perhaps he foresaw problems for his family in the future likely believing it to be an untenable position in the long-run. There's the threat of the surviving Tararyens returning, DS would be a massive boon for them. Could Renly hold SE as Stannis did if the Targs attack there? What if Joff decides that DS is the appropriate place for his children? What if Stannis dreamed of watching Shireen grow-up where he grew up and not even more isolated on DS? What if GRRM didn't write some one dimensional rubbish that nobody could relate to? 

What if Robert really was serving him a shit sandwich and didn't have the foresight to see it, whilst also trusting the younger and untested Baratheon with their family seat? Because that, right there, is a god-damn-mothertruckin' SLIGHT.  

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

What if Robert really was serving him a shit sandwich and didn't have the foresight to see it, whilst also trusting the younger and untested Baratheon with their family seat? Because that, right there, is a god-damn-mothertruckin' SLIGHT.  

 

But he didn't, he was being generous with his brothers.

Stannis had no right to a Lordship, no right to a position on the Small Council. His brother gave him both, it is not Robert's fault that his ungrateful brother wanted a different Lordship and a more powerful position on the Small Council.

 

[Wavey Sauce]

Why do some think the Lannisters should have been awarded anything after the Rebellion? Sat the whole thing out and then sacked the city when the king thought they were there to help. KL would have fallen without the Lannisters either way, yes maybe it takes longer but thats it. Only thing Tywin really did of some use was provide his daughter as a suitable bride. But their contributions are nowhere near what Stannis did.

 

In either war actually. In the Greyjoy rebellion Tywins fleet was burned at anchor. It was Stannis who destroyed their fleet and made them go back on the defense, hiding in their castles, and it became just a matter of time before they fell

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why do some think the Lannisters should have been awarded anything after the Rebellion?

Which people?

[Hugorfonics]

Which people?

Jon Arryn

[Minsc]

Why do some think the Lannisters should have been awarded anything after the Rebellion?

Because you need them for the peace afterwards as they are one of the most powerful houses in the realm.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Jon Arryn

Jon Arryn does not reward the Lannisters for their contribution during the Rebellion.

Cersei is the most eligible daughter of a Great House at the time Robert needed to marry. It had little to do with the Rebellion and more to do with how powerful the Lannisters are as a House as well as the control they have over their own region.