R+L=J v.157

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

 

I don't believe in a wedding, but I believe Jon is legitimate. Let me explain: Aerys had to negotiate with Rhaegar for him to leave Lyanna and fight against the rebels. They might have come to an agreement, and in Rhaegar's terms, to legimate the child that Lyanna is pregnant with. And I also think he required Hightower to be there guarding her.

Oh, so there are no hints! But Rhaegar tells Jaime that everything will change, will be better, after he defeats Robert. I think he planned to explain why he kept Lyanna in the south, and that the King not only legitimated his son/daughter but agreed to let Rhaegar replace him as King - that way people wouldn't be so against the Targaryens.

So, somewhere that might be written proof that Aerys Targaryen, then King of the Realm, legitimized the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Of course I don't believe Aerys planned to let Rhaegar replace him, he was so mad at that point that he could even have his son murdered or something. I only think that Aerys was desperate and needed Rhaegar, not because he could defeat his cousin, but because if Rhaegar won, that would be much like what they believed was the "trial by combat".

 

Talking about this, if Rhaegar refuses to leave TOJ and go back to KL, what can Aerys do?

Will he ask White Bull to force Rhaegar back? but White bull can not defeat Rhaegar, arthur and oswell at the same time. He will be killed by them in stead.

Will Aerys declare rahegar as a traitor and disinherit him? But rhaegar may not care about this. He may feel he want to live with Lyanna as a commoner. Or he may want to wait until the rebellion army kill his father, then he can show up and negotiate with rebellions.

Will Aerys use Rhaegar's wife and children to threaten him? But rhaegar does not care about them since the very beginning. He got a new woman and new child so his ex-family is likely some necessary sacrifice in his mind (just like the sons of Craster).

So I have no idea why rhaegar decided to go back and get himself killed.

Maybe he is just too arrogant and overconfident.  

 

 

[purple-eyes]

3 hours ago, Avalatis said:

Yeah I don't think this aspect of R+L=J will be confirmed by the show. Especially if Martin has no plan for Jon's legitimacy to be relevant to the end game (such as it's only used as a part of Jon's character development). The show wouldn't bother with the extra plot. R+L=J is a big enough reveal.

I agree that show will not investigate on this marriage issue.

However, if the show only tells us jon is son of R and L, nothing else, then this means Jon is still a bastard. Not ned's bastard, but Rhaegar's.

If the show wants to prove Jon is not a bastard, then it needs to explicitly tell us Rhaegar and Lyanna get married when he had a wife.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if the marriage is depicted in the show, they could decide that they want Jon Snow to be legitimate rather than a bastard to make things less complicated (say, George's plan is that Jon Snow goes through a series of contradicting legitimization decrees, first as a Stark through Robb's will, then as a Targaryen through Aegon's or Dany's decree, so that he is torn between the families he wants to belong to).

Alternatively the show could also ruin/mess with the time line and have Rhaegar and Lyanna marry only after Elia has been killed. I wouldn't put such a thing beyond them. After all, if the Lannisters are broke, then the Sack of KL can also occur prior to the Trident, right?

But, again, whatever the show establishes has no place in this thread or this even this sub-forum, and I don't want to know anything about that.

Good luck with that. Even if people try to be respectful and follow the rules -- the time between the end of season 6 and the release of book 6 make keeping information like that from slipping in is virtually impossible. Sorry about that LV. I just think you are being unrealistic in your expectations. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 20-1-2016 at 0:17 AM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Dragonstone's maester would never allow Elia to travel pregant.

I think this idea of Arthur and Rhaegar planning the elopement one year before it happened is ridiculous, sorry. It's very obvious they're trying to depose Aerys. And Martin would not have Barry know anything otherwise we'd have known the truth by now. All people who could tell us something is either dead or doesn't have a POV.

Oh, and also, if I remember correctly, Aerys was not supposed to go to Harrenhal and only did because of gossip by Varys. He was mad and thought maybe even TKOTLT was someone dangerous or wanting to make fun of him, or something, he really wanted to punish him/her. Maybe he found out it was a Stark? Maybe that's why everything happened?

Also, if he crowned Lyanna, and she was the KOTLT, maybe he didn't even think of her as a woman, but only as a brave girl. And everyone assumed incorrectly that he was enamored of her.

We are told Elia's issues were with giving birth. We hear nothing about issues with the pregnancy itself.

So as long as the traveling is slow and relaxed, she should be able to travel without a problem. 

 

6 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Talking about this, if Rhaegar refuses to leave TOJ and go back to KL, what can Aerys do?

Will he ask White Bull to force Rhaegar back? but White bull can not defeat Rhaegar, arthur and oswell at the same time. He will be killed by them in stead.

Will Aerys declare rahegar as a traitor and disinherit him? But rhaegar may not care about this. He may feel he want to live with Lyanna as a commoner. Or he may want to wait until the rebellion army kill his father, then he can show up and negotiate with rebellions.

Will Aerys use Rhaegar's wife and children to threaten him? But rhaegar does not care about them since the very beginning. He got a new woman and new child so his ex-family is likely some necessary sacrifice in his mind (just like the sons of Craster).

So I have no idea why rhaegar decided to go back and get himself killed.

Maybe he is just too arrogant and overconfident.  

 

 

If he left for prophecy-driven reasons ("there must be one more"), leaving them on Dragonstone doesn't automatically mean he didn't care about them.

[Lord Varys]

Come to think of it - doesn't Sansa have two husbands in the show? And wasn't that not touched upon at all in the show? I have only seen season 5 once, and I don't remember that it came up. If that's the case then the show actually might not care at all about whether Rhaegar took a second wife or not, just as nobody cared that Sansa Stark took a second husband.

But we already know that George considers a second spouse for Sansa a problem, and subsequently (most likely) for Rhaegar as well. I don't remember whether Aegon's two sister-wives or Maegor's multiple wives were ever mentioned in the show, by the way.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Come to think of it - doesn't Sansa have two husbands in the show? And wasn't that not touched upon at all in the show? I have only seen season 5 once, and I don't remember that it came up. If that's the case then the show actually might not care at all about whether Rhaegar took a second wife or not, just as nobody cared that Sansa Stark took a second husband.

But we already know that George considers a second spouse for Sansa a problem, and subsequently (most likely) for Rhaegar as well. I don't remember whether Aegon's two sister-wives or Maegor's multiple wives were ever mentioned in the show, by the way.

Sansa's not a Targaryen, so that's why it's a problem, though the marriage was not consummated.

If Aerys wanted, he could let Rhaegar take Lyanna as a second wife and legitimate the child inside her. He was the King! I think that's why Rhaegar agreed to fight for his father, among other political matters. There's written proof that Lyanna's child was trueborn. The only problem I see is that after Rhaegar died, and before Jon was born, he named Viserys his heir...

[Lord Varys]

35 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Sansa's not a Targaryen, so that's why it's a problem, though the marriage was not consummated.

If Aerys wanted, he could let Rhaegar take Lyanna as a second wife and legitimate the child inside her. He was the King! I think that's why Rhaegar agreed to fight for his father, among other political matters. There's written proof that Lyanna's child was trueborn. The only problem I see is that after Rhaegar died, and before Jon was born, he named Viserys his heir...

I know all that, but that wasn't the issue I was raising. The point was that the show largely ignores book facts (e.g. given Sansa's second marriage to Ramsay) and can therefore also have Rhaegar-Lyanna married in a fashion that never even touches on the polygamy issue or address the connected problem.

They certainly will give their own version of events, most likely severely cut and changed. Honestly, I could expect them merely revealing the fact who the true parents were without really touching on the details of the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship. The whole thing about Ned as the surrogate father has to be addressed, of course, but there is little need for them to explore Rhaegar and Lyanna...

[purple-eyes]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Come to think of it - doesn't Sansa have two husbands in the show? And wasn't that not touched upon at all in the show? I have only seen season 5 once, and I don't remember that it came up. If that's the case then the show actually might not care at all about whether Rhaegar took a second wife or not, just as nobody cared that Sansa Stark took a second husband.

But we already know that George considers a second spouse for Sansa a problem, and subsequently (most likely) for Rhaegar as well. I don't remember whether Aegon's two sister-wives or Maegor's multiple wives were ever mentioned in the show, by the way.

To be fair, somewhere in the show mentioned that their marriage can easily be dissolved due to the fact of no sex.  They had that heads up. They just did not introduce an actual plot that LF petitioned this application to somebody and got approved. They do not have sansa had two husbands at same time. Thus people will confuse why robb can not have two wives to avoid red wedding. 

And yes, nowhere said aegon had two wives. They call visenya and rhaenys his sisters, not his wife. They never let dany want to take two husbands. They certainly avoid polygamy in the show.  This is why I think in new season they will only say: oh, rhaegar and lyanna fall in love so they eloped, then they got jon! They would not say a polygamy wedding, or a destined dragon head prophecy. In the show, this is just a simple love story of two selfish and rash young people. They did not even bother to mention knight of laughing tree. 

What they told us about rhaegar in the show is that he was romantic, sad, love-singing, emotional, like to go into commoners, wanted to become a simple bard, these are obviously the heads up for him to elope due to true love. Like prince of dragonflies.

But the book told us rhaegar is determined, deliberate, dutiful, singleminded. All these personalities are shouting that rhaegar is obsessed with his duties (prophecy). 

 

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Sansa's not a Targaryen, so that's why it's a problem, though the marriage was not consummated.

If Aerys wanted, he could let Rhaegar take Lyanna as a second wife and legitimate the child inside her. He was the King! I think that's why Rhaegar agreed to fight for his father, among other political matters. There's written proof that Lyanna's child was trueborn. The only problem I see is that after Rhaegar died, and before Jon was born, he named Viserys his heir...

This is not the only problem, the bigger problem is that if rhaegar and Aerys already decided to allow lyanna as queen and their child as prince, then it is very useful to contact and negotiate with ned stark and rebellions. Not simply go to fight with them and try to kill them and get rhaegar himself killed. Keep in mind, in this case, ned is rhaegar's brother in law and jon is his nephew. 

 

 

 

[The Twinslayer]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Come to think of it - doesn't Sansa have two husbands in the show? And wasn't that not touched upon at all in the show? I have only seen season 5 once, and I don't remember that it came up. If that's the case then the show actually might not care at all about whether Rhaegar took a second wife or not, just as nobody cared that Sansa Stark took a second husband.

But we already know that George considers a second spouse for Sansa a problem, and subsequently (most likely) for Rhaegar as well. I don't remember whether Aegon's two sister-wives or Maegor's multiple wives were ever mentioned in the show, by the way.

In case there is anyone else out there who, like me, has not seen Season 5 of the show yet (and thinking ahead for people who, like me, will wait until Winds comes out before watching Season 6), I think it would be good if we avoided show spoilers in the book forum.  

[purple-eyes]

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We are told Elia's issues were with giving birth. We hear nothing about issues with the pregnancy itself.

So as long as the traveling is slow and relaxed, she should be able to travel without a problem. 

 

If he left for prophecy-driven reasons ("there must be one more"), leaving them on Dragonstone doesn't automatically mean he didn't care about them.

if he knew lyanna needs to hide in a dornish tower and be guarded by three best KG, he should at least invite oberyn to take care of his wife and children, if he did not bother to send them to Dorne. So he needs two KG to just elope with lyanna, but his heir, daughter, wife, donot deserve even one KG? They are two princesses and one future king. 

I bet in rhaegar's mind, these three for him are something like craster's sons. He can justly abandon them for bigger thing like true love or prophecy. 

Or like Jaime said; they are just some sperms I put into the cunt of a woman (Rhaegar does not even love this woman). He can get many more children from lyanna, so elia and aegon and rhaenys are replaceable and disposable. 

Nowhere said rhaegar is a good and caring father, we should stop assuming this. 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

if he knew lyanna needs to hide in a dornish tower and be guarded by three best KG, he should at least invite oberyn to take care of his wife and children, if he did not bother to send them to Dorne. So he needs two KG to just elope with lyanna, but his heir, daughter, wife, donot deserve even one KG? They are two princesses and one future king. 

I bet in rhaegar's mind, these three for him are something like craster's sons. He can justly abandon them for bigger thing like true love or prophecy. 

Or like Jaime said; they are just some sperms I put into the cunt of a woman (Rhaegar does not even love this woman). He can get many more children from lyanna, so elia and aegon and rhaenys are replaceable and disposable. 

Nowhere said rhaegar is a good and caring father, we should stop assuming this. 

 

I am not assuming that to be fact at all.

Elia and her children would have been safe at Dragonstone. And if Rhaegar believed (emphasizing the if here) that Rhaenys and Aegon were prophecized to play a role in some conflict which was to occur years from 282 AC, he'd have reason to assume they would not come to harm.

Nor could Rhaegar have known that an entire war would be fought.. He might have been at fault for taking Lyanna the way he did, but it was the actions of Brandon and Aerys combined whch led to a war in the end.

[purple-eyes]

42 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I am not assuming that to be fact at all.

Elia and her children would have been safe at Dragonstone. And if Rhaegar believed (emphasizing the if here) that Rhaenys and Aegon were prophecized to play a role in some conflict which was to occur years from 282 AC, he'd have reason to assume they would not come to harm.

Nor could Rhaegar have known that an entire war would be fought.. He might have been at fault for taking Lyanna the way he did, but it was the actions of Brandon and Aerys combined whch led to a war in the end.

Sure, safe from narrow sea pirates and outlaws.

Even rhaegar himself knew he needed to stay away from his father's madness.

His family would not be safe from a mad king at all, no matter how many soldiers on DS. They are king's men.

Who will want to leave your vulnerable wife and young infant children close to a mad but super powerful person when you and your most loyal guards are hundreds of miles away?

Only Rhaegar. Shame on him. He deserved that pike of warhammer. 

At least he should invite oberyn to come to DS. I bet oberyn would not fail them as rhaegar did. He would take them across the sea or take them back to dorne.

let us face it, Rhaegar simply forgot about his family. Just like Tywin forgot to mention about Elia. These three people are not on his priority list, easy and simple. So they slipped his mind. His head is full of Lyanna at that moment.

To be honest, I have to say Tyrion put much more effort on protecting Shae than Rhaegar on protecting his family.

you love a whore, then you treat her as a family although she is just a whore.like Tyrion to Shae. Illyrio to Serra.

you do not love your wife, then this wife is just as unimportant as a whore. like rhaegar to Elia. Daemon to Rhea.

In Rhaegar's mind, Lyanna is his true love and wife, Elia is just a bedwarmer and babymaker.

 

[RumHam]

2 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

 I think it would be good if we avoided show spoilers in the book forum.  

That is the rule, and the admins have mentioned the possibility of banning people for violating it once season six starts. 

[Lord Varys]

I'm shutting up. Damn, you see what happens when people begin discussing the show...

[RumHam]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm shutting up. Damn, you see what happens when people begin discussing the show...

Well if anyone complains, just point out that since the forum upgrade there are no rules:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[IceFire125]

Didn't Aerys summon Elia and her children to the Red Keep from Dragonstone? I believe Rhaegar totally did not agree to this or was part of his plan, but he could not disallow the order since it was from the king.  Rhaegar knew that Elia (and the children) were mere hostages to keep Dorne in line in the coming push to raise the royal army and repel the rebels, to which he was to lead.  I think this was also part of the factor to hid Lyanna away from Aerys' men and spies (Varys).

[Jon Snow Nothing]

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

This is not the only problem, the bigger problem is that if rhaegar and Aerys already decided to allow lyanna as queen and their child as prince, then it is very useful to contact and negotiate with ned stark and rebellions. Not simply go to fight with them and try to kill them and get rhaegar himself killed. Keep in mind, in this case, ned is rhaegar's brother in law and jon is his nephew. 

 

 

 

Purple eyes, you forgot one thing: the rebellion began not because of Rhaegar and Lyanna but because Aerys BURNED Rickard Stark and let Brandon strangle himself. Then, if not enough, he asked the heads of both Eddard Stark and R. Baratheon, and Jon Arrys then decided to go against the King and rebel. It's not a simple thing like "negotiate with Ned", they wanted the king out. And he had other plans, as we know from Jaime. But I'm sure Rhaegar didn't leave Lyanna for nothing, he wanted things from his father, and he'd have gotten them if he were sucessful. I believe, I know this is only a theory, that to leave Lyanna he got 1) Hightower to enforce the protection, and 2) The written announcement that Lyanna and Rhaegar's child was legitimate. Aerys hated Rhaegar, but needed him.

[purple-eyes]

11 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Purple eyes, you forgot one thing: the rebellion began not because of Rhaegar and Lyanna but because Aerys BURNED Rickard Stark and let Brandon strangle himself. Then, if not enough, he asked the heads of both Eddard Stark and R. Baratheon, and Jon Arrys then decided to go against the King and rebel. It's not a simple thing like "negotiate with Ned", they wanted the king out. And he had other plans, as we know from Jaime. But I'm sure Rhaegar didn't leave Lyanna for nothing, he wanted things from his father, and he'd have gotten them if he were sucessful. I believe, I know this is only a theory, that to leave Lyanna he got 1) Hightower to enforce the protection, and 2) The written announcement that Lyanna and Rhaegar's child was legitimate. Aerys hated Rhaegar, but needed him.

I did not forget. I am not saying rhaegar can ask the rebellion to stop seeking justice. However, with the decision about Lyanna as princess, as well as his plan to depose the mad father and give them justice, this is a very good point to check with robellion and avoid more bloodshedding. Rebellion had two reasons for the war: 1. deal with Aerys's madness, 2. deal with Lyanna's abduction and raping. Rhaegar had these two cards to play but he remained silent and went ahead to fight with them to death.  

we should not forget that rhaegar went to trident in order to defeat the rebellion. Which means he is completely ready to kill Robert, as well as Ned Stark. Ned is the brother of Lyanna, why would Rhaegar want to kill him? If Rhaegar won, Robert would die, and ned would likely be killed in the battle too (like Leywn and Jon also died in the battle after rhaegar died, Barristan almost died). Then this time, it is Rhaegar who killed Ned, plus Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard, it would be interesting to see if Lyanna still loved Rhaegar at this point. If she is not a cold-blooded bitch, I guess she should put Rhaegar on her death list too.

By the way, rhaegar is not in a position to threaten his father. If he refused to work for him, then he would be declared as a traitor and he will be replaced by Viserys and his head will be ordered. Aerys can simply let Barristan and Lewyn as the leaders for battle, and sent more people to TOJ to capture rhaegar and Lyanna. If White Bull can find them, surely more people would find them too.

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

I completely disagree that Rhaegar was threatening his father by saying: if you do not agree my polygamy marriage with Lyanna or my child from her is a legit prince, then I will stay right here in TOJ!

He did not have this power at all.

Aerys had capable people to lead the army. He had another son to be heir. He can send more troop to attack a lonely and small TOJ and capture Rhaegar and Lyanna and use her as a perfect hostage. Rhaegar had to obey his king father. Not the other way around.

It is obvious that Rhaegar wanted to keep his throne and become future king, so he had to go back to guard his country. Otherwise he would lose everything.

There is nothing he can threaten his father, unless he decided he would abandon his throne and run away with Lyanna to live a sellsowrd life in Essos forever. Then he can ignore his father's summoning.