The Kight of the Laughing Tree was Eddard

[purple-eyes]

Benjen had nothing to fear if he was unmasked. The only person who absolutely could not afford to be unmasked was Lyanna.

And Elia Sand says hello :-)

She who is called Lady Lance. Why did GRRM give her this hobby, I wonder?

 

you are exactly right. 

Lyanna can not afford to lose even for once. 

So What made her so confident that she can win? One failure can cause big trouble for her and her house. Who can promise to win. 

Elia sand was allowed to be trained by oberyn and she openly attended jousting and lady toland heard about her as lady lance. 

But we did not hear about lyanna. We were told she was not supported by her father. And we were told jousting can be won or lost easily. 

I think somebody helped her or howland to win. It is a teamwork. 

This person dreamed to be knight for one day and was heart tree itself and howland can talk to him and he can receive the prayer of howland and he is powerful in magic. And he is good friend of daughter of howland. 

Bran was there to give them strength and luck and bravery. Either help lyanna or howland himself to make sure they win. 

 

 

[Mladen]

Merely pointing out yet another female to support the case of Lyanna as KotLT - one possessing the necessary skill, despite being a teenage girl :-)

LOL, yeah... But between all Sand Snakes, Arya and Brienne, the point has been established. Women in ASOIAF are not just for embroidery.

[purple-eyes]

The words Martin used to describe KotLT are practically the same as Tolkien used to describe Dernhelm. Howland and Merry are the ones left behind, who wants to do great deeds, but are limited by their stature.

I think I am missing the point

yes, howland and merry are certainly similar. Merry attacked the witch king by knee using magic sword and eywon gave the blow. 

My opinion is that howland is not a coward who just stood aside to see lyanna fight for him. 

He attended somehow and got help from old gods. 

 

[Ser Knute]

I have no problem with lyanna knowing how to joust. 

But it is hard to believe she is very confident that she can surely defeat three adult and trained knights Who she never fought with before. 

What if she lose to one of them? 

If she fails by even once, she will be disclosed and brought trouble and shame to her house. 

No matter it is howland or lyanna, somebody indeed helped them, I think this is bran, the heart tree itself. 

Nobody can be more fit For a heart tree knight than bran. 

 

By the same token, even if she wins, she can be commanded to remove her helm.  We see this with Brienne in the Tourney that Renly held.  Do people think that everyone knew it was Brienne fighting Loras?  So then it doesn't follow that her confidence had much if any bearing on whether she chose to enter as a mystery knight or not.  You then mention losing and the trouble and shame that might come to House Stark.  Isn't the whole point of this gesture to show that House Stark will defend its allies?  The point being, no matter if she won or lost, there was a chance the KotLT could be outed, which she was, just not publicly.

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why did the issue transpire as it did, rather than a representative of House Stark taking the issue up with the Liege Lord of whichever houses these squires came from?  If Howland was dishonored, then by rights his honor should be defended by his liege lord, in this case, Rickard Stark.  But we know that Brandon had some southron ambition which may have been part of why the issue was 'decided' to be handled quietly rather than publicly through the Lords of the affected Houses.  You keep mentioning the shame she may have brought down on her house, but I ask, what shame?  That a woman entered the lists as a mystery knight, who was not really a knight at all?  The shame!  What about the shame that could be brought upon House Stark for not defending the honor of one of their vassal Lords?  The issue seems to be about placism and it seems to me that Lyanna didn't care as much about placism as she did about honor.  The South holds much of the north in contempt, based mainly on their old traditions and their old religion; placism.  The Reeds are likely seen as a sort of primitive house especially by southrons, and by extension the same can be said for much of the North itself.  So while we can see the practicality of Lord Rickard not wanting to broach this subject with the Lord in question, it should also be fairly easy to see why that reasoning wasn't exactly something Lyanna totally agreed with.  No matter who the KotLT is, what can't be ignored is that House Stark held the responsibility for upholding the honor of their bannermen.  So no matter who it is, SOMEONE decided that it was in their best interests to handle the slight, even if only privately.

It makes sense in this case for Lyanna to reject that 'reasoning' if the issue was discussed at all.  Perhaps Lyanna made the decision on her own to defend Howland's honor?

Next, we have the question of ability.  People seem to be arguing that Lyanna should be or is much less skilled than these SQUIRES.  Yet, we know from other jousts within the story that Jousting is less about 'skill' with a lance then it is about riding skill and being able to stay in your seat and how to adjust your seating.  We know that Lyanna was a skilled rider and we even have examples of Arya being a better bowman than Bran at their relative young ages.  So why it should then follow that she's incapable of beating three squires is beyond me.  

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

you are exactly right. 

Lyanna can not afford to lose even for once. 

So What made her so confident that she can win? One failure can cause big trouble for her and her house. Who can promise to win. 

 

So, a girl of fifteen came up with a plan that, under closer scrutiny, isn't one hundred percent failproof? Imagine that. Hey, it's a fantasy novel, all kind of wonders can happen here, even such unbelievable things as teenagers acting, on occasion, recklessly.

[purple-eyes]

By the same token, even if she wins, she can be commanded to remove her helm.  We see this with Brienne in the Tourney that Renly held.  Do people think that everyone knew it was Brienne fighting Loras?  So then it doesn't follow that her confidence had much if any bearing on whether she chose to enter as a mystery knight or not.  You then mention losing and the trouble and shame that might come to House Stark.  Isn't the whole point of this gesture to show that House Stark will defend its allies?  The point being, no matter if she won or lost, there was a chance the KotLT could be outed, which she was, just not publicly.

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why did the issue transpire as it did, rather than a representative of House Stark taking the issue up with the Liege Lord of whichever houses these squires came from?  If Howland was dishonored, then by rights his honor should be defended by his liege lord, in this case, Rickard Stark.  But we know that Brandon had some southron ambition which may have been part of why the issue was 'decided' to be handled quietly rather than publicly through the Lords of the affected Houses.  You keep mentioning the shame she may have brought down on her house, but I ask, what shame?  That a woman entered the lists as a mystery knight, who was not really a knight at all?  The shame!  What about the shame that could be brought upon House Stark for not defending the honor of one of their vassal Lords?  The issue seems to be about placism and it seems to me that Lyanna didn't care as much about placism as she did about honor.  The South holds much of the north in contempt, based mainly on their old traditions and their old religion; placism.  The Reeds are likely seen as a sort of primitive house especially by southrons, and by extension the same can be said for much of the North itself.  So while we can see the practicality of Lord Rickard not wanting to broach this subject with the Lord in question, it should also be fairly easy to see why that reasoning wasn't exactly something Lyanna totally agreed with.  No matter who the KotLT is, what can't be ignored is that House Stark held the responsibility for upholding the honor of their bannermen.  So no matter who it is, SOMEONE decided that it was in their best interests to handle the slight, even if only privately.

It makes sense in this case for Lyanna to reject that 'reasoning' if the issue was discussed at all.  Perhaps Lyanna made the decision on her own to defend Howland's honor?

Next, we have the question of ability.  People seem to be arguing that Lyanna should be or is much less skilled than these SQUIRES.  Yet, we know from other jousts within the story that Jousting is less about 'skill' with a lance then it is about riding skill and being able to stay in your seat and how to adjust your seating.  We know that Lyanna was a skilled rider and we even have examples of Arya being a better bowman than Bran at their relative young ages.  So why it should then follow that she's incapable of beating three squires is beyond me.  

I Think you got something wrong here. 

The confusion is that she beaten three knights in the tourney. 

She drove away three young squires, by then she was a high born young girl who shouted to help her "bannerman". Three young boys can only run away. You seriously think three boys can not beat a 14 year old lyanna? She is a noble woman, daughter of house stark probably with a stark pin or sigil. They would not dare to harm her. 

But it is totally different thing in tourney. They are three well trained adult grown up men, three knights who had won in the tourney for a few days. They had no idea who this is so lyanna did not have advantage. 

Jousting is not just riding, you need to handle a 14 feet lance and hit hard and accurate to unhorse your enemy. It is not just avoiding some hit by adjusting your seating, ok? 

And you seem to feel that I am challenging that lyanna is the knight. 

I said she may be. However, some help would be needed. That is the whole point that old gods and isle of faces and green men and magic were mentioned so much in the same story. 

And I tell you, it is not good for a woman to show up in tourney. It is a world for men (except dorne). Princess Daena the defiant tried very hard to attend tourney but was not allowed. Brienne was mocked. It was a bad thing for the noble house to have a wild and untamed girl doing this with a lot of men. Like a man who like stitching with women. Think about it in that world. Not by today. 

Brandon as the heir should defend howland. Or Ned. Certainly Not lyanna. You think people would feel this is a great thing? No. Look at what brienne got. 

And although I am not 100% sure, but it looks like that the loser will have to be unmasked. The winner may not be so necessary to do that unless he was ordered by king or somebody important. He can leave with his mask. Just like kolt did. 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

 

So, a girl of fifteen came up with a plan that, under closer scrutiny, isn't one hundred percent failproof? Imagine that. Hey, it's a fantasy novel, all kind of wonders can happen here, even such unbelievable things as teenagers acting, on occasion, recklessly.

sure, plot wise She needs to win so she wins. Like how jorah won for lynesse. No reason is needed. If brienne can be real champion, lyanna can surely beat three guys. 

I am just saying it may not be so straightforward and simple. 

Because this kolt story is heavily involved with old gods, isle of faces, green men, howland's magic and prayer and the heart tree and bran. 

If it is just about lyanna and her excellent skills on jousting, I think the story is missing some layers. 

Old gods, bran and heart tree are having a lot of influences in future books. I do not think HH is so simple, just a stage for a two step love story between rhaegar and lyanna. 

 

[Kienn]

Lyanna is quite a longshot.

 

Eddard makes far more sense in every aspect, including RLJ purposes. Even Howland + Old Gods, or Howland + Bran would be more believable than Lyanna.

[purple-eyes]

By the same token, even if she wins, she can be commanded to remove her helm.  We see this with Brienne in the Tourney that Renly held.  Do people think that everyone knew it was Brienne fighting Loras?  So then it doesn't follow that her confidence had much if any bearing on whether she chose to enter as a mystery knight or not.  You then mention losing and the trouble and shame that might come to House Stark.  Isn't the whole point of this gesture to show that House Stark will defend its allies?  The point being, no matter if she won or lost, there was a chance the KotLT could be outed, which she was, just not publicly.

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why did the issue transpire as it did, rather than a representative of House Stark taking the issue up with the Liege Lord of whichever houses these squires came from?  If Howland was dishonored, then by rights his honor should be defended by his liege lord, in this case, Rickard Stark.  But we know that Brandon had some southron ambition which may have been part of why the issue was 'decided' to be handled quietly rather than publicly through the Lords of the affected Houses.  You keep mentioning the shame she may have brought down on her house, but I ask, what shame?  That a woman entered the lists as a mystery knight, who was not really a knight at all?  The shame!  What about the shame that could be brought upon House Stark for not defending the honor of one of their vassal Lords?  The issue seems to be about placism and it seems to me that Lyanna didn't care as much about placism as she did about honor.  The South holds much of the north in contempt, based mainly on their old traditions and their old religion; placism.  The Reeds are likely seen as a sort of primitive house especially by southrons, and by extension the same can be said for much of the North itself.  So while we can see the practicality of Lord Rickard not wanting to broach this subject with the Lord in question, it should also be fairly easy to see why that reasoning wasn't exactly something Lyanna totally agreed with.  No matter who the KotLT is, what can't be ignored is that House Stark held the responsibility for upholding the honor of their bannermen.  So no matter who it is, SOMEONE decided that it was in their best interests to handle the slight, even if only privately.

It makes sense in this case for Lyanna to reject that 'reasoning' if the issue was discussed at all.  Perhaps Lyanna made the decision on her own to defend Howland's honor?

Next, we have the question of ability.  People seem to be arguing that Lyanna should be or is much less skilled than these SQUIRES.  Yet, we know from other jousts within the story that Jousting is less about 'skill' with a lance then it is about riding skill and being able to stay in your seat and how to adjust your seating.  We know that Lyanna was a skilled rider and we even have examples of Arya being a better bowman than Bran at their relative young ages.  So why it should then follow that she's incapable of beating three squires is beyond me.  

and also it is Rickard who had southern ambition. And Rickard is not in the touney. He was in the north. 

House stark Defending the lords? You are overthinking. If house stark needs to defend every young man who were beaten by three boy squires of common knights, they will never have chance to do other things. 

Brandon the heir did not show up at all. It is not a major thing house stark needs to stand in tourney to fight. Otherwise they will talk with house Frey and their head houses. 

 

[purple-eyes]

I just don't buy that Lyanna would have beaten those squires. I mean...beautiful, feisty, smart, and able to beat trained squires at jousting? Not to mention she had Robert and Rhaegar in love with her? Sounds ridiculous to me. Makes her a totally unrelatable and almost Mary-Sue-ish character. I hope GRRM reveals the KotLT's identity at some point, though. It'll be interesting to see if it really is Lyanna, or if it's Ned/Howland/whoever. I'm not sure who it is - I just don't believe it's Lyanna.

you are absolutely right.

she is indeed mary sue of this book. 

Honestly almost everything happened due to her or related to her. 

this book is basically a story of "Lyanna, her son and three men who loved her"(Robert, Rhaegar and Ned Stark)

 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I just don't buy that Lyanna would have beaten those squires. I mean...beautiful, feisty, smart, and able to beat trained squires at jousting? Not to mention she had Robert and Rhaegar in love with her? Sounds ridiculous to me. Makes her a totally unrelatable and almost Mary-Sue-ish character. I hope GRRM reveals the KotLT's identity at some point, though. It'll be interesting to see if it really is Lyanna, or if it's Ned/Howland/whoever. I'm not sure who it is - I just don't believe it's Lyanna.

The Mary Sue and the Prince who fell for her both died. That's the deviation. Their "fairy tale" beginning couldn't survive harsh reality.

[purple-eyes]

The Mary Sue and the Prince who fell for her both died. That's the deviation. Their "fairy tale" beginning couldn't survive harsh reality.

You do know this is a key part about Mary sue, right?

even death can not change their awesomeness and people will harbor undying love for them through their whole life and keep devoting everything to them, such as Joncon, robert, cersei, ned, etc. 

IMHO this is the most annoying part. 

 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And Elia Sand says hello :-)

She who is called Lady Lance. Why did GRRM give her this hobby, I wonder?

 

Elyanna Stand, my darling Griff's worst nightmare

LOL, yeah... But between all Sand Snakes, Arya and Brienne, the point has been established. Women in ASOIAF are not just for embroidery.

It has never been, not even in our world. And they didn't even need to dress as boys or hide their identities (that's a trope that has been turned into a cliche). They took some good comfortable practical clothes, a horse and went even to battlefield or whoever chaos was happening to solve it. Not all women, of course, but when dad or hubby weren't around, who was going to do it, then?

Now, if Lyanna hadn't been that young and she was, for example, already married to Robert or whoever, she wouldn't have needed all of that. Simply tell them, as a lady, to get the fuck out of there.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You do know this is a key part about Mary sue, right?

even death can not change their awesomeness and people will harbor undying love for them through their whole life and keep devoting everything to them, such as Joncon, robert, cersei, ned, etc. 

IMHO this is the most annoying part. 

 

 

My point about calling it "Mary Sue" (although she's not), is that their allegedly perfect relationship didn't endure the reality Martin made them go through.

In another kind of story, the Prince eloping with the Pretty Lady would have ended up in them living happily ever after.

[purple-eyes]

My point about calling it "Mary Sue" (although she's not), is that their allegedly perfect relationship didn't endure the reality Martin made them go through.

In another kind of story, the Prince eloping with the Pretty Lady would have ended up in them living happily ever after.

No, that is a low quality Mary Sue. 

High quality Mary Sue is just like Lyanna, died romantically in the middle of roses with rose petals in her hands, had a great tomb and beautiful statue (so people can say how beautiful she is, or how statue can not show her beauty at all), remained young and beautiful forever, loved and mourned by many men until the end of their lives (and their wives must suffer to prove their undying love). and last but no the least, left a savior hero son who can always remind people how wonderful she is. 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

You do know this is a key part about Mary sue, right?

even death can not change their awesomeness and people will harbor undying love for them through their whole life and keep devoting everything to them, such as Joncon, robert, cersei, ned, etc. 

IMHO this is the most annoying part. 

 

 

A Mary Sue or, in case of a male, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities. Often but not necessarily this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.

Which one, Eddard, Lyanna or Howland fits that description?

[purple-eyes]

Elyanna Stand, my darling Griff's worst nightmare

It has never been, not even in our world. And they didn't even need to dress as boys or hide their identities (that's a trope that has been turned into a cliche). They took some good comfortable practical clothes, a horse and went even to battlefield or whoever chaos was happening to solve it. Not all women, of course, but when dad or hubby weren't around, who was going to do it, then?

Now, if Lyanna hadn't been that young and she was, for example, already married to Robert or whoever, she wouldn't have needed all of that. Simply tell them, as a lady, to get the fuck out of there.

JonCon must have a mixed feeling to see an Elia Sand who looked and named like Elia but behaved like wild Lyanna. 

If this one seduced Aegon, then JonCon would be mad and jealous all over again. 

About Lyanna, she is not even close to sand snakes or brienne. 

She is not a real warrior as far as we know. 

 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

No, that is a low quality Mary Sue. 

High quality Mary Sue is just like Lyanna, died romantically in the middle of roses with rose petals in her hands, had a great tomb and beautiful statue (so people can say how beautiful she is, or how statue can not show her beauty at all), remained young and beautiful forever, loved and mourned by many men until the end of their lives (and their wives must suffer to prove their undying love). and last but no the least, left a savior hero son who can always remind people how wonderful she is. 

 

Lyanna is not a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a character that is obviously a characterization on text of the author, in which such character meddles with everybody and everything in order to solve it with her perfection.

Also, MS mostly belong to the realms of fanfiction, because they are the embodiment of the author's wishful thinking about the storyline and how they would like to be involved in it, even if overshadowing mayor characters. Wesley Crusher is a MS because he's obviously Gene Roddenberry saving the Enterprise like three times. Idem for Hermione, who JKR has confessed to have based on herself, and she's Rowling's voice many times too.

If we're going to start talking about MarySues in ASOIAF only based on the fact they're capable and are able to defeat expectations, then Arya and Brienne would be also MSs. Are they? Not every female character that is good at something is a MS.

[purple-eyes]

A Mary Sue or, in case of a male, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities. Often but not necessarily this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.

Which one, Eddard, Lyanna or Howland fits that description?

 

 

of course Lyanna. 

I have read a lot of stories and INHO it looks like Mary sue is usually a woman who has extraordinary abilities and beauties and easily got success in what she is doing, all handsome men will fall in love with her and abandon their own girlfriends or wives for her. This is often because the author (female) wanted to fulfill all the wishes and got all the love and attention in their own story. So an author insert.  

Lyanna does fit into it. (of course author is not female, but for male author, often this woman is their perfect dreaming type)

 

[Clegane'sPup]

of course Lyanna. 

I have read a lot of stories and INHO it looks like Mary sue is usually a woman who has extraordinary abilities and beauties and easily got success in what she is doing, all handsome men will fall in love with her and abandon their own girlfriends or wives for her. This is often because the author (female) wanted to fulfill all the wishes and got all the love and attention in their own story. So an author insert.  

Lyanna does fit into it. 

 

nope, the definition clearly states that there are Gary Stu's and Marty Stu's. In this instance the author is male.