A+J=T v.8

[A spoon of knife and fork]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

All that's needed to qualify as a psychopath is a difficulty (or impossibility - it's not clear) in experiencing empathy.  see here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Psychopathy

Many people who meet the criteria have relationships, some many year lasting relationships.  There's even some legitimate science suggesting that so-called "high functioning" or "pro social" psychopaths are more likely to be successful or hold positions of high authority than other people.  Probably because they didn't have that pesky empathy getting in the way when they had to do something ruthless to get ahead.  Take Tywin, for example.

Since we have a lot of evidence that Aerys is a cruel asshole, and that he has sexually sadistic tendencies, but no evidence that he has hallucinations of any kind, I think the case for him being a psychopath is much stronger than that he's a schizophrenic.  Now it might be he doens't qualify as a psychopath, but just has some other kind of a "personality disorder". 

I see a lot of similarities with Joffery, Aerys, and Viserys.  Viserys not feeling any emapthy whatsoever for Daenerys or apparently any other person is I think very strong evidence that he is a psychopath.  I am not sure what else you need.  Joffery it's unclear - but there certainly is some ocnnection between psychopathy and doing things like murdering animals.  I think it's probable he was headed that way.  With a good environment maybe he could have become pro social and a decent ruler.  

 

[finger]

If A+J=T, Grrm must have thought it was an important fact in the story, since its inception. So, anything stated in the books has to be coherent with the theory not to it be proved false. Then, da capo:

Tyrion is presented as a having mismatched eyed, such a curious feature in someone whose mother and father are both Lannister.

If R+L=J, as regularly admitted, Benjen would still be Jon's uncle, but Tyrion would as well. And this leads to that chapter with Jon as POV at the beginning of the story. First, Jon has a long interchange with uncle Benjen, who means to give him good advice. Jon gets angry and pulls out, just to meet... (uncle?) Tyrion, who means to give him good advice in a long interchange.

Since then on, Benjen and Tyrion are coupled before Jon. To be precise, when Jon and Tyrion talk, Benjen is always mentioned.

And there comes the garden of sentences with double meaning. "Tyrion turned north with Benjen Stark ans his nephew." Most Tyrion's kin are bastards. Tyrion is a bastard in his father's eyes,... But you've noticed these before.

I'd like to stress these:

"You are too kind, Master Aemon."

"I have been called many things, my lord, but kind is seldom one of them."

 

[Jô Maltese]

2 hours ago, finger said:

(...)

I'd like to stress these:

"You are too kind, Master Aemon."

"I have been called many things, my lord, but kind is seldom one of them."

 

Nice find. Never thought of this 'kind' before. 

[Aemon Targaryen]

Thanks for this thread UL.  This is my first post.  I ceased lurking to chime in that I think A+J=T is right.  There is no real dramatic pay-off if it's not correct - and if so why all the clues?  

There is no definitive proof - how boring the reveal would be if there were.  So it comes down to coherence and aesthetic fit.  The main "fit" counterargument is that it undermines the complexity of both Tywin as a character and the father-son relationship between Tyrion and Tywin.  But I think the opposite is true.  The recognition that Tywin had serious doubts over Tyrion's paternity, and was likely almost certain Tyrion was Aerys' son, makes both Tywin and Tyrion more interesting and deeper characters.  Most of these points have been made before upthread, just thought I'd set them out.

1.  Tywin's irrational hatred of Tyrion made little sense.  Tywin was a pragmatist, concerned not with individuals but with the power and prestige of the Lannisters.  Even if Tywin loved J deeply and she died giving birth to Tyrion, it does not make sense that Tywin would effectively try to kill Tyrion and otherwise treat him like shit.  

Tywin is no fool - as he would have to be if he thought Tyrion was his true (albeit deformed) son and yet still tried to kill Tyrion, despite the obvious threat to the Lannisters of the Cersei/Jamie situation.  Further, once Jamie enters the King's Guard, that would have changed everything for Tywin.  He would have hedged Cersei/Jamie with Tyrion - at least on the risk of having no heir.  Tywin would've appreciated Tyrion's wits, and turned them to the Lannisters' advantage more readily.  

2.  One of the puzzles of the Tyrion-Tywin relationship was Tyrion not being able to understand why his father was being so irrational towards him.  Tyrion could perceive Tywin's pragmatic nature, and could never understand why Tywin wouldn't make peace with Tyrion's deformity but "make use" of him as his most intelligent son - hedging as set out above.  Despite it not making sense, Tyrion had to chalk it up to his being a dwarf and killing his mother.

3.  Tywin didn't just not kill Tyrion because of a promise he made Joanna (though if he swore to Joanna to raise him as his own, the symmetry with Lyanna's request to Ned is clear).  Tywin never wanted the rest of the world to know how his honour had been besmirched - better that he had a monster for a true born son, than being revealed to the world as Aerys' cuckold.  Tywin cares more about the appearance of honour and the truth of it - face rather than fact.  The only thing worse for him than the fact of the dishonour, would be for the whole world to find out about.  Tywin - the pragmatist - decides he will grin and bear it to the end.  Note that he can't risk even telling Tyrion this - at least, not until he is dead or know he is about to die!  Tyrion is his perfect torment.

4.  Tyrion recognising this in WoW will develop his character significantly - gone will be the maudlin self-pity.  He will in fact respect Tywin for not having killed him, and for raising him almost as a Lannister.  It will also somehow allow Tyrion to come to terms at a deep level with being a dwarf (as started with Penny) - he will know that it was not that that caused his father to hate him, but rather than he is a Targaryen.  At that point, he will become a real man, and the compassionate wisdom he was always capable of will come to the fore.  It will allow Tyrion to turn Dany into a true queen and moderate her cray cray.  Tyrion is also the potential linkage point between Jon and Dany - Tyrion knowing Jon's true worth, if not yet his true parentage.

5.  The painful ironies of Tywin's position - how it must have killed him to be told that Tyrion was most like him - not because Tyrion was a dwarf but because he was a Targaryen!  Also, the more competent Tyrion proved himself to be, the more dangerous it was for Tywin - if Tyrion ever realised his true parentage he might have the claim to the throne as Aerys' bastard, thus torpedoing the Lannisters.
 

[Aemon Targaryen]

In general it's interesting how genetics gets misconstrued.  GRRM uses this theme a lot, though, so I guess it's no surprise - the fact the feudal patriarchal world is perpetually confounded by genetics (as many dynasties in real life).  The linear logic of inheritance meeting the slippery chaos of sex and genetics.

The obvious bears stating: despite R+L=J, Jon is just as much a "real" Stark as he is a Targaryen.  Lyanna is his mother.  That's apart from being raised by Ned - all his values deriving from Ned.  

Assuming Jon finds out about his true parentage, up until that moment Jon will consider Ned his true father; upon finding out, he will still consider Ned his true father, even once he realises Ned was his uncle.  Imagine the respect he will have for Ned when he finds out the truth - and that Ned didn't tell him so as to protect him.

Similarly, Joanna was a real Lannister, so even if Tyrion is a bastard and not Tywin's son, he has always been and will always be a Lannister as much as a Targ.

It's true that both Jon and Tyrion being hidden Targs can be seen to be slightly cheap, but it's still satisfying to me.  In a cheesy way, it's worth noting that Jon and Tyrion appear to both be products of true love unions - not mere marriages.

Does anyone know the answers to these questions - answers will be much appreciated: 

1. Varys knows Tyrion's true parentage but not Jon's - who else knows about Jon's - witnesses in the Tower of Joy (and is this something Sam could find out in Old Town?)?

2. If Barristan is to be the means of the Tyrion revelation in the books, how will it work on the show?

3. Is Varys a faceless man and is he really cut (I noticed some stuff on re-reading GOT)?

[purple-eyes]

24 minutes ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

In general it's interesting how genetics gets misconstrued.  GRRM uses this theme a lot, though, so I guess it's no surprise - the fact the feudal patriarchal world is perpetually confounded by genetics (as many dynasties in real life).  The linear logic of inheritance meeting the slippery chaos of sex and genetics.

The obvious bears stating: despite R+L=J, Jon is just as much a "real" Stark as he is a Targaryen.  Lyanna is his mother.  That's apart from being raised by Ned - all his values deriving from Ned.  

Assuming Jon finds out about his true parentage, up until that moment Jon will consider Ned his true father; upon finding out, he will still consider Ned his true father, even once he realises Ned was his uncle.  Imagine the respect he will have for Ned when he finds out the truth - and that Ned didn't tell him so as to protect him.

Similarly, Joanna was a real Lannister, so even if Tyrion is a bastard and not Tywin's son, he has always been and will always be a Lannister as much as a Targ.

It's true that both Jon and Tyrion being hidden Targs can be seen to be slightly cheap, but it's still satisfying to me.  In a cheesy way, it's worth noting that Jon and Tyrion appear to both be products of true love unions - not mere marriages.

Does anyone know the answers to these questions - answers will be much appreciated: 

1. Varys knows Tyrion's true parentage but not Jon's - who else knows about Jon's - witnesses in the Tower of Joy (and is this something Sam could find out in Old Town?)?

2. If Barristan is to be the means of the Tyrion revelation in the books, how will it work on the show?

3. Is Varys a faceless man and is he really cut (I noticed some stuff on re-reading GOT)?

it is highly unlikely that when tyrion was conceived, there was true love between Joanna and Aerys.

It sounds like a raping. Especailly right after Aerys humiliated her by publicly claiming: did baby nursing ruin your pair of proud breasts?

If Tyrion is really a bastard of Joanna and Aerys, then the situation will be similar to Dany, a product of raping.

Considering how Joanna ran away from KL immediately after Rhaella dimissed her, and how she rarely visited KL, and how she had a love match with Tywin, and how Aerys was mad and abusive, I highly doubt Tyrion is a product of true love as you wished or suggested.

 

I used to feel maybe tyrion is a hidden targ. But after reading some comments of GRRM on Tyrion, now I feel that Tyrion is indeed son of Tywin. The stuff in world book is likely just some red hearing or teasing from GRRM, such as Joanna visited KL one year before Tyrion's birth.

Dragon indeed has three heads. But Aegon is still a dragon even if he is blackfyre. I think Aegon will claim a dragon, then somehow died with this dragon (likely Rhaegal). So Tyrion may not have a dragon to ride. He is a lion in the prophecy and he shouted between the dragons, not as a dragon.

 

 

[Aemon Targaryen]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

it is highly unlikely that when tyrion was conceived, there was true love between Joanna and Aerys.

Yep, I was thinking that, and on second thoughts I'm uncertain.  It's obviously unnecessary to the main point of my post and OP though.

I used to feel maybe tyrion is a hidden targ. But after reading some comments of GRRM on Tyrion, now I feel that Tyrion is indeed son of Tywin. The stuff in world book is likely just some red hearing or teasing from GRRM, such as Joanna visited KL one year before Tyrion's birth.

Dragon indeed has three heads. But Aegon is still a dragon even if he is blackfyre. I think Aegon will claim a dragon, then somehow died with this dragon (likely Rhaegal). So Tyrion may not have a dragon to ride. He is a lion in the prophecy and he shouted between the dragons, not as a dragon.

That's interesting - could you please elaborate on or quote the GRRM comments you've referred to?

It does look like the story will appear to go towards Aegon as the 3rd head - if only because why else is he there - but I strongly doubt Aegon will get a dragon 'permanently' in the end, as opposed to a temporary ride or something.  I see him more like a foreshadowing/fake out for the 'real' 3rd dragon, Tyrion.  The Tyrion as Targ clues date back to GOT; Aegon was too late and unpersuasive an addition to the story to be a real Targ imo.  Real Targs trump Blackfyres.

 

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

 

it is an interview between GRRM and Entertainment Weekly. I lost the link.

You can google it, it is about Tyrion and tywin and Shae, and how he murdered Tywin and Shae, his feeling, etc.

After reading that, I belieive tyrion is indeed son of Tywin.

About Aegon, it seems to be quite positive that he will have a dragon and bind with it. There will be a dance of dragons 2.0. so I guess at least one dragon had to die, of course rider can die with dragon surviving, but somehow I feel that they will die together during battle, like many cases before in the history. This is just my feeling, nothing sure though.

Even Tyrion is not a targ, he may still be able to ride a dragon by his knowledge or some special skill.

GRRM may want to make an exception for him. Such as what happened to Nettles. She was only rumored as a dragon seed and her way to tame dragon is quite different from others. So you never knows. And he did once said it is not necessary to be a targ to ride a dragon. but this can have many meanings for sure.

 

 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

16 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

[snip]
 

Welcome to the boards and welcome to A+J=T.  While I try to facilitate and maintain this thread in some sense of order, much of the content in the OP was created by others, and I want to make sure credit goes where credit is due.

As to your basic analysis as to why the Tywin/Tyrion relationship is not "ruined" by AJT, of course, I largely agree with it. For some reason, people seem to like seeing Tywin as a monster, and anything that makes his actions more nuanced seems to bother them. They like the nature of the relationship they have in their heads so much that any re-thinking becomes a problem. They also seem to think that it gives Tyrion a "free pass" -- but I agree that more of what it does is give Tyrion a way to move on -- which he desperately needs now.

I am not sure how Tyrion will be told about the affair/rape between Aerys and Joanna, but it certainly might be different in the book than the show (e.g., Barristan in book and Varys on the show).

As to the EW interview, I assume this link is the article being referenced.  I don't remember reading it before (found it from a simple google search). I suspect that the statement from GRRM that causes concern is the following statement he made regarding Tywin and Tyrion's first wife:

Quote

Lord Tywin is convinced that since he doesn’t love Tyrion, then no one can possibly love Tyrion. So it’s obviously some lower-class girl who’s just trying to get the dwarf into bed because he was a Lannister, so she could become a lady and have money and live in a castle and all that. 

From that quote, GRRM states that Tywin does not love Tyrion and thus assumes no one else could. I suspect some would argue that if the reason that Tywin does not love Tyrion is because Aerys is the real bio-dad, then Tywin would understand that others might not have the same bias and thus could love Tyrion even if Tywin does not. Whereas, if Tywin really is the bio-dad and still does not love Tyrion, then Tywin could be expected not to think anyone could love Tyrion.

But emotions are not that linear and rational. Tywin does not admit to himself that he hates Tyrion because Tyrion is the son of Aerys. Tywin convinces himself that he hates Tyrion because Tyrion is a deformed whore-monger who killed his own mother. Tywin suppresses the real reason. So it would be understandable that Tywin would have the thoughts that GRRM ascribes to Tywin -- even if Tyrion really is the son of Aerys. And one theory I have put forth is that Tywin might not be sure and might not fully admit to himself that Tyrion really is the son of Aerys until Tywin's last breath when he finally admits what he has really known all along and tells Tyrion that Tyrion is "no son of mine." But even if Tywin has been more aware even longer than that -- it is still understandable that Tywin would convince himself that he has a better reason to hate Tyrion than just Aerys being the real father.

BTW -- I don't think that Nettles figured out a new way to bond with a dragon. The bonding process clearly is magical. Feeding a dragon does not logically lead to being able to form a magical bond with a dragon. The other dragons who were subject to being bonded with a dragon rider were "domesticated" dragons that were raised from birth by the Targs and their servants. Sheepstealer was a wild dragon, and Nettles figured out how to gain the dragon's trust to get close enough to get on the dragon's back and bond with the dragon. There were plenty of dragon handlers of the domesticated dragons who were able to get somewhat close to feed and care for them, presumably -- and there are no reports of any of them ever bonding with a dragon. So there is really no reason to think that Nettles is an exception to the Targ-blood rule. 

Oh, and I agree that Aegon as the third head makes no sense. YG is a late addition to the series. YG almost certainly will die before the fight with the Others -- and the three heads are all supposed to be part of the War for the Dawn 2.0. Having the 3 heads be 2 of the main characters and then a 3rd who is almost an after-thought as a character does not make sense. Biologically, YG probably can (and maybe will) ride a dragon -- but that does not make him a "head of the dragon" for purposes of the prophecy. The 3 heads of the dragon need to be a team working to win the war -- fAegon just cannot serve that purpose given how uninvested the readers are in YG.

[purple-eyes]

53 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Welcome to the boards and welcome to A+J=T.  While I try to facilitate and maintain this thread in some sense of order, much of the content in the OP was created by others, and I want to make sure credit goes where credit is due.

As to your basic analysis as to why the Tywin/Tyrion relationship is not "ruined" by AJT, of course, I largely agree with it. For some reason, people seem to like seeing Tywin as a monster, and anything that makes his actions more nuanced seems to bother them. They like the nature of the relationship they have in their heads so much that any re-thinking becomes a problem. They also seem to think that it gives Tyrion a "free pass" -- but I agree that more of what it does is give Tyrion a way to move on -- which he desperately needs now.

I am not sure how Tyrion will be told about the affair/rape between Aerys and Joanna, but it certainly might be different in the book than the show (e.g., Barristan in book and Varys on the show).

As to the EW interview, I assume this link is the article being referenced.  I don't remember reading it before (found it from a simple google search). I suspect that the statement from GRRM that causes concern is the following statement he made regarding Tywin and Tyrion's first wife:

From that quote, GRRM states that Tywin does not love Tyrion and thus assumes no one else could. I suspect some would argue that if the reason that Tywin does not love Tyrion is because Aerys is the real bio-dad, then Tywin would understand that others might not have the same bias and thus could love Tyrion even if Tywin does not. Whereas, if Tywin really is the bio-dad and still does not love Tyrion, then Tywin could be expected not to think anyone could love Tyrion.

But emotions are not that linear and rational. Tywin does not admit to himself that he hates Tyrion because Tyrion is the son of Aerys. Tywin convinces himself that he hates Tyrion because Tyrion is a deformed whore-monger who killed his own mother. Tywin suppresses the real reason. So it would be understandable that Tywin would have the thoughts that GRRM ascribes to Tywin -- even if Tyrion really is the son of Aerys. And one theory I have put forth is that Tywin might not be sure and might not fully admit to himself that Tyrion really is the son of Aerys until Tywin's last breath when he finally admits what he has really known all along and tells Tyrion that Tyrion is "no son of mine." But even if Tywin has been more aware even longer than that -- it is still understandable that Tywin would convince himself that he has a better reason to hate Tyrion than just Aerys being the real father.

BTW -- I don't think that Nettles figured out a new way to bond with a dragon. The bonding process clearly is magical. Feeding a dragon does not logically lead to being able to form a magical bond with a dragon. The other dragons who were subject to being bonded with a dragon rider were "domesticated" dragons that were raised from birth by the Targs and their servants. Sheepstealer was a wild dragon, and Nettles figured out how to gain the dragon's trust to get close enough to get on the dragon's back and bond with the dragon. There were plenty of dragon handlers of the domesticated dragons who were able to get somewhat close to feed and care for them, presumably -- and there are no reports of any of them ever bonding with a dragon. So there is really no reason to think that Nettles is an exception to the Targ-blood rule. 

Oh, and I agree that Aegon as the third head makes no sense. YG is a late addition to the series. YG almost certainly will die before the fight with the Others -- and the three heads are all supposed to be part of the War for the Dawn 2.0. Having the 3 heads be 2 of the main characters and then a 3rd who is almost an after-thought as a character does not make sense. Biologically, YG probably can (and maybe will) ride a dragon -- but that does not make him a "head of the dragon" for purposes of the prophecy. The 3 heads of the dragon need to be a team working to win the war -- fAegon just cannot serve that purpose given how uninvested the readers are in YG.

what the interview changed me is not that Tysha and Tyrion stuff.

It is how GRRM described killing Tywin is the darkest deed in his life and he will be haunted for the rest of his life. Also he explained why he would kill his father due to some uncontrolled feeling. and also he mentioned that due to his, a kinslayer will be cursed all the time, etc.

These made me feel that GRRM indeed had Tyrion as son of Tywin in his mind, this is an very important part in his personaility and his story.

It would be very cheap to let him get rid of all these just by simply having Barri or Varys said : ah, you are son of Aerys!

This will ruin everything GRRM put on this figure and give him a convenient and shallow leaway.

 

About if he can still ride a dragon as son of Tywin, I have no idea, It can go either way.

I do not have any problem with it and I think anything can happen in next book.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

16 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

what the interview changed me is not that Tysha and Tyrion stuff.

It is how GRRM described killing Tywin is the darkest deed in his life and he will be haunted for the rest of his life. Also he explained why he would kill his father due to some uncontrolled feeling. and also he mentioned that due to his, a kinslayer will be cursed all the time, etc.

These made me feel that GRRM indeed had Tyrion as son of Tywin in his mind, this is an very important part in his personaility and his story.

It would be very cheap to let him get rid of all these just by simply having Barri or Varys said : ah, you are son of Aerys!

This will ruin everything GRRM put on this figure and give him a convenient and shallow leaway.

 

About if he can still ride a dragon as son of Tywin, I have no idea, It can go either way.

I do not have any problem with it and I think anything can happen in next book.

 

You see it as a way out. I see it as a way to move on -- which Tyrion needs to do for the story to progress. 

Yes, GRRM said that killing Tywin -- from the point of view of someone in Westeros -- is the darkest thing Tyrion did -- due to the noble birth of Tywin and the kinslaying curse. But GRRM also suggested that from a modern sense of morality, the murder of Shae was worse (not just a momentary impulse) -- and suggested that Tyrion would be haunted more by that killing than the killing of Tywin (suggesting that Tyrion is more subject to the less relativistic morality that makes Shae's murder worse).

Making Tywin something other than Tyrion's biological father does not alter the morality of what Tyrion did -- Tyrion still thought he was killing his father -- and no matter biology -- he was (as Tywin raised Tyrion in the role as his father). But finding out Tywin is not the bio-dad takes the morality out of the Westeros world of kinslaying (although Tywin is still Tyrion's cousin through Joanna, so maybe it would be kinslaying of a kind), and forces Tyrion to confront the true morality of what Tyrion did -- to both Tywin and Shae.

So rather than being subject to a Weteros "curse" that precludes Tyrion from redemption in that society (allowing Tyrion to continue to wallow as there is no point in doing anything else if one is cursed for all time) -- Tyrion would be forced to confront what actually happened and try to deal with it. So that part of the interview leads me to think that GRRM believes that Tyrion as son of Aerys improves the story -- not undermines it.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

30 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

what the interview changed me is not that Tysha and Tyrion stuff.

It is how GRRM described killing Tywin is the darkest deed in his life and he will be haunted for the rest of his life. Also he explained why he would kill his father due to some uncontrolled feeling. and also he mentioned that due to his, a kinslayer will be cursed all the time, etc.

These made me feel that GRRM indeed had Tyrion as son of Tywin in his mind, this is an very important part in his personaility and his story.

It would be very cheap to let him get rid of all these just by simply having Barri or Varys said : ah, you are son of Aerys!

This will ruin everything GRRM put on this figure and give him a convenient and shallow leaway.

 

About if he can still ride a dragon as son of Tywin, I have no idea, It can go either way.

I do not have any problem with it and I think anything can happen in next book.

 

If you kill your adopted father, it is still patricide.  And at that time Tyrion even thought Tywin was his father - if you think you murder some one but find out you really killed someone else, or they survived by some miracle, you're still guilty.  

IMO, tyrion being so much like Tywin is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy/curse for Tywin.  It is because of the constant rejection, humiliation, and abuse that Tyrion becomes his "true son".

[purple-eyes]

21 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

You see it as a way out. I see it as a way to move on -- which Tyrion needs to do for the story to progress. 

Yes, GRRM said that killing Tywin -- from the point of view of someone in Westeros -- is the darkest thing Tyrion did -- due to the noble birth of Tywin and the kinslaying curse. But GRRM also suggested that from a modern sense of morality, the murder of Shae was worse (not just a momentary impulse) -- and suggested that Tyrion would be haunted more by that killing than the killing of Tywin (suggesting that Tyrion is more subject to the less relativistic morality that makes Shae's murder worse).

Making Tywin something other than Tyrion's biological father does not alter the morality of what Tyrion did -- Tyrion still thought he was killing his father -- and no matter biology -- he was (as Tywin raised Tyrion in the role as his father). But finding out Tywin is not the bio-dad takes the morality out of the Westeros world of kinslaying (although Tywin is still Tyrion's cousin through Joanna, so maybe it would be kinslaying of a kind), and forces Tyrion to confront the true morality of what Tyrion did -- to both Tywin and Shae.

So rather than being subject to a Weteros "curse" that precludes Tyrion from redemption in that society (allowing Tyrion to continue to wallow as there is no point in doing anything else if one is cursed for all time) -- Tyrion would be forced to confront what actually happened and try to deal with it. So that part of the interview leads me to think that GRRM believes that Tyrion as son of Aerys improves the story -- not undermines it.

Well, for me, in the whole talk, GRRM seems to be geniuinely talking Tyrion as son of Tywin. I can not feel anything that he had Tyrion as son of another man in his mind. especially when he said the father-killing is darkest deed Tyrion did and this will haunt for the rest of life as the kinslaying will be forever cursed. Exactly a similar pattern as how Maekar was haunted by killing his brother for his whole life.

If he decided to declare Tyrion as a son of Aerys in the future, he does not need to say these things.

Just like his famous talk: His father named Tyrion, and Ned named Jon.

Tywin is Tyrion's father all the time in GRRM's talk.

 

[ravenous reader]

This is off-topic, but I'm new to the forum, and wanted to ask if anyone could explain if it's possible to quote someone from another thread here, and how I go about doing that? It's a great quote which has a bearing on the point I'd like to make about GRRM's writing, his 'intentions,' and our interpretation of the ultimate 'correctness' of those intentions.

[UnmaskedLurker]

11 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Well, for me, in the whole talk, GRRM seems to be geniuinely talking Tyrion as son of Tywin. I can not feel anything that he had Tyrion as son of another man in his mind. especially when he said the father-killing is darkest deed Tyrion did and this will haunt for the rest of life as the kinslaying will be forever cursed. Exactly a similar pattern as how Maekar was haunted by killing his brother for his whole life.

If he decided to declare Tyrion as a son of Aerys in the future, he does not need to say these things.

Just like his famous talk: His father named Tyrion, and Ned named Jon.

Tywin is Tyrion's father all the time in GRRM's talk.

 

Did you ever think that maybe GRRM considers AJT a better kept secret than RLJ, and thus works harder not to talk in a way that might suggest Tywin is not Tyrion's father? And the emotions that GRRM describes regarding Tyrion feeling cursed relate to how Tyrion was feeling at that time -- which would be Tyrion's feeling no matter the truth -- as Tyrion would not know the truth yet.

[purple-eyes]

In fact, this book is already having quite some easy leeways due to the need of plot.

Such as Mel killed Renly by a magic shadow baby (only she did this in the whole history, such a high level and one-time magic killing skill, why nobody used this before or later?)

Elia was conveinently declared and confirmed as barren right after birth of healthy Aegon at 24 years old (again only case in the whole history, such a high level of reproductive medicine, even modern medicine can not do this)

And like some people wished, rhaegar and Lyanna secretly married as a polygamy couple to give Jon Snow a best claim to IT (again one only case in the history. Maegor did similar thing but he has no child, so it is unconfirmed what will happen)

We really do not need another leeway that Tyrion suddenly found he did not kill his father, in fact, he killed the indirect but major murderer of his real father (Tywin's treason), isn't this too brilliant to be true?

 

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Did you ever think that maybe GRRM considers AJT a better kept secret than RLJ, and thus works harder not to talk in a way that might suggest Tywin is not Tyrion's father? And the emotions that GRRM describes regarding Tyrion feeling cursed relate to how Tyrion was feeling at that time -- which would be Tyrion's feeling no matter the truth -- as Tyrion would not know the truth yet.

But he will know truth in the next two books if he is really son of Aerys.

So that this father-salying will not haunt him rest of his life.

He will probably feel justified to kill Tywin since Tywin treated him so bad and also Tywin is the man who betrayed and indirectly killed his own real father and Tywin's son jaime directly killed his true father and also Tywin made his mother can not join with his real father, etc.

This may give him more motivation to kill Jaime I guess.

 

 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

In fact, this book is already having quite some easy leeways due to the need of plot.

Such as Mel killed Renly by a magic shadow baby (only she did this in the whole history, such a high level and one-time magic killing skill, why nobody used this before or later?)

Elia was conveinently declared and confirmed as barren right after birth of healthy Aegon at 24 years old (again only case in the whole history, such a high level of reproductive medicine, even modern medicine can not do this)

And like some people wished, rhaegar and Lyanna secretly married as a polygamy couple to give Jon Snow a best claim to IT (again one only case in the history. Maegor did similar thing but he has no child, so it is unconfirmed what will happen)

We really do not need another leeway that Tyrion suddenly found he did not kill his father, in fact, he killed the indirect but major murderer of his real father (Tywin's treason), isn't this too brilliant to be true?

 

I am not sure I follow your logic. So first you point out that GRRM repeatedly adds plot points simply because he needs them to happen for his overall plot to work. And you show how quite a few "one time events" and "too convenient coincidences" occur in the series. And so what is your conclusion regarding this theory? I would have thought the conclusion would be that this theory is completely consistent with how GRRM writes the series and that these other examples make AJT even more plausible because such a plot twist is consistent with how GRRM writes. But instead, somehow, you decide that this particular plot twist is one twist -- or one coincidence -- or one convenient implausible happenstance -- too many. But why? Why draw the line with this theory? Especially when the need for the third head is so obvious.

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

But he will know truth in the next two books if he is really son of Aerys.

So that this father-salying will not haunt him rest of his life.

He will probably feel justified to kill Tywin since Tywin treated him so bad and also Tywin is the man who betrayed and indirectly killed his own real father and Tywin's son jaime directly killed his true father and also Tywin made his mother can not join with his real father, etc.

This may give him more motivation to kill Jaime I guess.

Again, while I basically agree with your points here, so what? Here is the relevant quote from the article:

Quote

And it will haunt him. Tywin was his father and that will continue to haunt him, probably for the rest of his life.

Based on this quote, it seems clear that GRRM is talking about how Tyrion would feel at that moment. Saying "probably for the rest of his life" -- GRRM is stating that Tyrion would believe he is going to feel that way for the rest of his life -- at that time. GRRM is not saying Tyrion really will feel that way for the rest of his life. For the story to work, Tyrion needs to come to terms with these feelings -- not be trapped by them for the rest of his life. GRRM is pointing out how low Tyrion has sunk. But something needs to happen to raise Tryion back up -- or Tyrion fails to develop any further as a character -- which is not GRRM's style.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

16 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

This is off-topic, but I'm new to the forum, and wanted to ask if anyone could explain if it's possible to quote someone from another thread here, and how I go about doing that? It's a great quote which has a bearing on the point I'd like to make about GRRM's writing, his 'intentions,' and our interpretation of the ultimate 'correctness' of those intentions.

If the thread is still open, just his the + at the bottom of the post (that's the multi-quote button), which will change into a check-sign. In the right lower corner, a box will appear in which you can see how many posts you're selected to quote. When you have them all (they are remembered when you change pages and go to other topics), hit that button, and voilá!.

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If the thread is still open, just his the + at the bottom of the post (that's the multi-quote button), which will change into a check-sign. In the right lower corner, a box will appear in which you can see how many posts you're selected to quote. When you have them all (they are remembered when you change pages and go to other topics), hit that button, and voilá!.

Thanks for replying. I will give it a go!