A+J=T v.8

[Ser Creighton]

Only in a world where young men are expected to jump abysses, otherwise it's a faulty analogy. In ASOIAF, the men of noble houses are expected to fight, even lead men, in war. 

No I think the analogy is actually on target, it's essentially a sink or swim analogy and that fits even our world. Thing is the guy Tywin was asking to swim, he thought couldn't swim and would thus sink. For Tywin it was win win at the time. Tyrion dies bravely on the battlefield, like a Lannister should. And if Gregor dies he has already served his purpose and Tywin and can get rid of a guy everyone already hates.  Even the most half assed leaders generally try to put people in a position to succeed. Which means you generally put people in a position they have shown competence in.

Take the Tyrells, 3 sons, Garlan, he is a warrior, and a commander, he and Tarly command the Tyrell host. Loras is their young handsome charismatic tourney night who begins to grow into his talent as a warrior. Then you have the eldest Willas, Willas was trained for combat but does not lead a host, or compete in tourneys because of his physical disability.

The actual battle had Tywin fully expose his weak left where he had placed Tyrion. He thought would over commit and then he could pivot the center and strong right to trap the Stark host between his men and the river. He fully expected the left to be routed, he was counting on it. He could of placed Tyrion at the center, leading the reserve, on the strong right. He placed Tyrion in the position he fully expected to get routed. His chances of survival would not have been good.

Later because of the battle of the Green Fork, and the Blackwater, Tywin actually throws Tyrion a bone, he arranges for him to marry Sansa. Sure it benefits him and house Lannister, which is what Tywin really loves, and would eventually remove Tyrion from the castle and place him way up in the north.

Tywin was manipulating the trial but he did not plan on killing Tyrion, it was Oberyn and Tyrion who decided on a trial by combat.

Tyrion had his own mistakes he made, he was upset when removed as hand, but he had always been Tywin's proxy, he was never actually the hand. He was made master of Coin which is a significant position for a guy who was once the plumber of Casterly rock. He was upset because he wanted to be hand and he wanted credit and rewards, he was given Sansa, the North and became Master of Coin, but did not think that was good enough.

Tyrion did a great job all things considered but it was still Tywins victory. He arrived with the host, he took care of Robb via Frey and Bolton. In truth is was Stannis, his killing of Renly caused a chain reaction that led the Tyrells to Tywin and Stannis would be defeated by this force. Kinslayers are cursed.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Tyrion's 300 clansmen made up what, less than 1.5% of Tywin's force? And Roose had what 16k? And Tywin woulda thought he was facing closer to 20k, no? So how was Tywin expecting a significant amount of Stark's army to slip into the hole on Tywin's left between the river if only 300 men were going to turn tail or get waxed? No, he had to have been counting on the better part of Gregor's van being decimated by Stark's right (which, most likely would have been Stark's van). 

Crow food," Bronn muttered beside him, giving voice to what Tyrion had left unsaid. He could only nod. Had his lord father taken leave of his senses? No pikes, too few bowmen, a bare handful of knights, the ill-armed and unarmored, commanded by an unthinking brute who led with his rage . . . how could his father expect this travesty of a battle to hold his left?

Tyrion VIII, Game 62

In case you don't know, the medieval army was comprised of three "battles," the van, the center and the rear. When deployed, the van normally split out to the right but not here. Kevan's center had archers, pikemen, men-at-arms and heavy horse. Addam's right was all cavalry comprised of the noblest the West had to offer. But Gregor's battle was crowfood, not just Tyrion. 

Like I said, I don't think Tywin cared much whether his son were killed in battle at that moment. And he did offer to let Tyrion guardthe baggage train. 

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion's 300 clansmen made up what, less than 1.5% of Tywin's force? And Roose had what 16k? And Tywin woulda thought he was facing closer to 20k, no? So how was Tywin expecting a significant amount of Stark's army to slip into the hole on Tywin's left between the river if only 300 men were going to turn tail or get waxed? No, he had to have been counting on the better part of Gregor's van being decimated by Stark's right (which, most likely would have been Stark's van).  

Gregor was in on the plan, of course. He would have fallen back, luring Robb farther in until eventually Tywin and Kevan would have sprung the trap. The only people not knowing anything about the plan were Tyrion, Bronn, and the clansmen. What does that tell you about Tywin's plans for them?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Gregor was in on the plan, of course. He would have fallen back, luring Robb farther in until eventually Tywin and Kevan would have sprung the trap. The only people not knowing anything about the plan were Tyrion, Bronn, and the clansmen. What does that tell you about Tywin's plans for them?

You really might want to read that battle sequence again. Gregor led the charge into the Karstark spears on Robb's right and pounded them. Keven brought up his center in support of Gregor's advance. Really. 

[Lord Varys]

You really might want to read that battle sequence again. Gregor led the charge into the Karstark spears on Robb's right and pounded them. Keven brought up his center in support of Gregor's advance. Really. 

I know - but was this part of the original plan or the consequence of the fact that Roose Bolton's conservative battle tactics made the implementation of Tywin's original plan impossible - and addition to the clansmen actually holding their line (most likely due to the fact that Roose didn't have anyone try particularly strongly to break through there).

[Lost Melnibonean]

I know - but was this part of the original plan or the consequence of the fact that Roose Bolton's conservative battle tactics made the implementation of Tywin's original plan impossible - and addition to the clansmen actually holding their line (most likely due to the fact that Roose didn't have anyone try particularly strongly to break through there).

How do you know Roose didn't intend to push through on the right? That was a mainstay of medieval tactics--to try to roll up your adversary's left flank with your strong right. Whether he did or not Gregor (apparently ignoring the phantom orders you say he received to retreat despite a lack of any such statements in the text) busted Karstark's line and Kevan's came up in support. Even if Roose had intended to punch with his right the battle was lost. 

[Ser Creighton]

I know - but was this part of the original plan or the consequence of the fact that Roose Bolton's conservative battle tactics made the implementation of Tywin's original plan impossible - and addition to the clansmen actually holding their line (most likely due to the fact that Roose didn't have anyone try particularly strongly to break through there).

Gregor pulled off a miracle is what happened. He somehow single handedly broke the stark line and the small cavalry he commanded, a 1000 horse went through the hole.

The maneuver itself is a simple flanking maneuver, it's standard practice to anchor you flanks, here Tywin deliberately sacrifices his left to draw in the Stark forces, once they over commit to break the left, the center and strong right execute the flanking maneuver, the river and hills now become combat multipliers for Tywin trapping his enemy. It's like the Hammer and the anvil where the land acts as the anvil. The Stark forces can't regroup and counter because they have lost position and terrain. The river instead of acting as an anchor for the flank acts as the anvil. 

The chapter itself opens with Tywin belittling Tyrion, he should charge him with burying the dead, your not afraid are you? Jaime would be eager. Tywin looks down on Tyrion as everyone looks down on his clans men.

Then it starts.

"We had a thought to put you and your wildlings in the vanguard when we come to battle." Tyrion points out that this is probably Tywins idea and not Kevan's.

"The Vanguard." He repeated dubiously. Either his lord father had new respect for Tyrion's abilities, or he'd decided to rid himself of his embarrassing get for good."

"When soldiers lack disipline, the fault lies with their lord commander," his father said."

Tywin continues to bait Tyrion.

"A bigger man would be able to put the fear in them, is that what you're saying, my lord?"

Tyrion begins to take the bait.

"If my sons men will not obey his commands perhaps to vanguard is not the place for him. No doubt he would be more comfortable in the rear, guarding the baggage train"

More insults and Tyrion is falling right into the trap.

"Do me no kindnesses father," he said angrily. "If you have no other command to offer me, I'll lead your van."

The leading of the Van as Tyrion indicates is usually for a skilled person in the art of war, it is also an honor. It is the fist of the unit. Ned Stark Led Roberts Van. Tyrion will soon find out the Van is not what he thought it would be.

Tywin tells him he will not have command but serve under Gregor. And Tyrion spit out his food and left angrily.

"A great gust of laughter went up from behind him."

Bronn "Who'd want to kill the likes of you?"

Tyrion "my lord father for one. He's put me in the van."

"Battle Assembly"

Stark force is less than a mile from the camp, forming up in battle array.

Tyrion is commanded to to take the left and hold the river. Here the river is acting as an anchor.

"To turn their  flank, the Starks would need horses that could run on water."

And Tyrion assumes that Tywin wants no enemy on the flank between him and the river.

Then he would observe the line.

"This wing too was all vaalry, but where the right was a mailed fist of Knights and heavy lancers, the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west:"

Some of those men included field hands, half trained boys, and of course his untrained clansmen.

"Crow food," Bronn muttered beside him, giving voice to what Tyrion had left unsaid. He could only nod."

"Had his lord father taken leave of his senses? No pikes, too few bowmen, a bare handful of knights, the ill armed and unarmored, commanded by an unthinking brute who led with his rage ... how could his father expect this travesty of a battle to hold his left?"

The North charges and the Van deploys hewing to the river. The center and right hold. The Vanguard is meant to be the fist but this is no fist or was not designed to be. The Stark force had no idea of the strength of Tyrions plot armor.

Then the mountain the only man to initially reach the spear line breaks it. Him and his horse.

Some members of the mountain clans go through the breach, Then a flight of arrows comes down on both sides, Tyrion is not certain who fired them. Chances are only Tywin would fire on his own men, Tyrion hid beneath his shield.

The battle goes on. Lannister Victory.

"Did it upset your plans?" In regards to the mountain men fighting well.

"We were supposed to be butchered were we not?"

"I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan's pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve."

"And you thought it best to place me in the midst of this carnage, yet keep me ignorant of your plans,"

"A feigned rout is less convincing,"

So he knew it would be a rout, he expected carnage and Tyrion got lucky that Gregor broke the line.

So you are correct, he did not put Tyrion in position to succeed and chances are he would of been killed in the rout. He was surrounded by a small undisciplined force. His plan never got executed because somehow the Van broke the line which caused the Stark force to commit anyway. It also served to dispose of the mountain clans who were being led by the Mountain. Hope some of those quotes help in support.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RumHam]

20. What is the most relevant item we will learn from the World of Ice and Fire that involves the A Song of Ice and Fire storyline?

There's a great deal of information concerning Tywin Lannister and his friendship -- and then his falling out -- with Aerys, with some implications on matters concerning Tywin's children, and Aerys's children for that matter. Plus the Targaryen section's penultimate entry concerns the great tourney at Harrenhal, and certain mysterious matters surrounding it.

I didn't see that in the original post's list of supporting quotes. Maybe cause it's not from the books? But that seems like a really revealing quote to me. I can't imagine what else Elio could have been talking about. 

I am having some technical  difficulties with revealing hidden content, so maybe it is there and I just couldn't find it.

Edit: Link

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2kgg2o/spoilers_all_ama_with_authors_of_the_world_of_ice/

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

20. What is the most relevant item we will learn from the World of Ice and Fire that involves the A Song of Ice and Fire storyline?

There's a great deal of information concerning Tywin Lannister and his friendship -- and then his falling out -- with Aerys, with some implications on matters concerning Tywin's children, and Aerys's children for that matter. Plus the Targaryen section's penultimate entry concerns the great tourney at Harrenhal, and certain mysterious matters surrounding it.

I didn't see that in the original post's list of supporting quotes. Maybe cause it's not from the books? But that seems like a really revealing quote to me. I can't imagine what else Elio could have been talking about. 

I am having some technical  difficulties with revealing hidden content, so maybe it is there and I just couldn't find it.

Edit: Link

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2kgg2o/spoilers_all_ama_with_authors_of_the_world_of_ice/

As far as I recall, Elio doesn't believe in AJT, so how would that then be a hint in favor of the theory?

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

As far as I recall Elio doesn't believe in AJT, so how would that then be a hint in favor of the theory?

Yeah, It could be a hint that Cersei and Jaime cannot be Aerys's kids, and that Aerys named Viserys as his heir. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

As far as I recall, Elio doesn't believe in AJT, so how would that then be a hint in favor of the theory?

Well, because believing in a theory and actually assessing the evidence supporting it are two things. Ran and Linda don't like the idea that Tyrion is Aerys' son, just as I found that idea not so compelling prior to the publication of ADwD. But they certainly realized that George wouldn't have put all the Joanna-Aerys stuff into TWoIaF if he didn't want people to reach certain conclusions. They may not want him to go into that direction, but that doesn't mean they don't realize/accept when he is going in that direction...

And one can assume that they would have asked George whether he wanted to give the impression that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard with the whole thing - and he may even have answered them, making it clear to them that this was the impression he wanted to create (with or without actually confirming that Tyrion was Aerys' bastard in the process).

And at times Ran and Linda have somewhat strange ideas - Ran was completely against the idea that Daemon II was hitting on Dunk in TMK when 'Warriors' came out (which was quite obvious to many people), and both seem to entertain the notion that Aegon might die during the attack on Storm's End - that is not very likely if you ask me. I'm with them in the sense that he'll ultimately feel, but I very much doubt he'll die this early since that would, in effect, cut the whole campaign of the Golden Company short.

From the uncut history of the Westerlands we know that George did not yet have that anniversary tourney stuff in there when he wrote that, making it very likely that the Joanna-Aerys bits found their way into the story when George finally made up his mind how things stand on this whole issue, whose son Tyrion actually was, and how it would be revealed in future books. He was, after all, writing on TWoW at the same time, and could easily have added the Tyrion stuff to the section on the reign of Aerys II when certain things discussed and revealed in the next book were set in stone. The full story of the anniversary tourney might be revealed in TWoW while Yandel got around to give us only the one tantalizing hint.

George usually is very reluctant to set things in stone he has not touched upon in the main series since that forces him to stick to whatever version he hints at. He didn't want to give away much about anything touching on the future of Dunk & Egg, after all (and the accounts of the reigns of Maekar and Aegon V are effectively a joke if you ask for actual historical details - we don't even learn who Egg's Hand was or who the lords were who opposed his reforms).

Realistically speaking, the deliberate inclusion of hints that Joanna and Aerys could have had the chance to conceive Tyrion in 272 AC is more than enough evidence for me that they most likely did. George has never used hints as subtle as this to actually lead the reader astray, and you only notice this whole thing if you are looking for clues. The casual reader won't notice anything just as I completely overlooked the clues in AGoT that Littlefinger was lying about the dagger or that Lysa may have murdered her husband.

In my opinion, the hints about Tyrion, Joanna, and Aerys in TWoIaF are there to point the attentive reader in the right direction or to be ignored by the casual reader. They are not there to confuse the attentive reader and have reach the wrong conclusion that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard. That would go completely against George established style. I mean, if he uses wrong clues with this one, why not with, say, the prophecies (could be faked/misunderstood in-universe, too), the visions from the House of the Undying (the Undying wanted to feed on Daenerys, they had no reason to tell her the truth), all the clues surrounding Jon Snow, and so on?

[RumHam]

7 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

As far as I recall, Elio doesn't believe in AJT, so how would that then be a hint in favor of the theory?

I was unaware of his position on this theory. Do you know when he said this? Is is possible the worldbook changed his mind? Do you have any thoughts on what else he might have been getting at? Because I really don't...

Edit: didn't he make a post at one point about how Martin had "thrown fuel on the fire" of the Aerys/Tyrion thing with the worldbook? 

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah, It could be a hint that Cersei and Jaime cannot be Aerys's kids, and that Aerys named Viserys as his heir. 

I don't see how ruling out a relatively unpopular theory that Jaime and Cersei were Aerys's kids could be the most relevant thing in the book to the Song of Ice and Fire storyline. Tyrion being Aerys's son and the third head of the dragon could easily be. 

I don't think his answer to the question goes anywhere near the Viserys was the heir thing. He's talking about Tywin and Aerys's falling out, and the implications for Tywin and Aerys's children. Yeah, if Tywin had supported Aerys early on in the rebellion Rhaegar may not have died and thus Viserys would not have been named heir. But it's quite a stretch to say that Tywin and Aerys's falling out led to Viserys being named heir over Aegon. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I was unaware of his position on this theory. Do you know when he said this? Is is possible the worldbook changed his mind? Do you have any thoughts on what else he might have been getting at? Because I really don't...

Edit: didn't he make a post at one point about how Martin had "thrown fuel on the fire" of the Aerys/Tyrion thing with the worldbook? 

I don't see how ruling out a relatively unpopular theory that Jaime and Cersei were Aerys's kids could be the most relevant thing in the book to the Song of Ice and Fire storyline. Tyrion being Aerys's son and the third head of the dragon could easily be. 

I don't think his answer to the question goes anywhere near the Viserys was the heir thing. He's talking about Tywin and Aerys's falling out, and the implications for Tywin and Aerys's children. Yeah, if Tywin had supported Aerys early on in the rebellion Rhaegar may not have died and thus Viserys would not have been named heir. But it's quite a stretch to say that Tywin and Aerys's falling out led to Viserys being named heir over Aegon. 

Just a suggestion, man

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, because believing in a theory and actually assessing the evidence supporting it are two things. Ran and Linda don't like the idea that Tyrion is Aerys' son, just as I found that idea not so compelling prior to the publication of ADwD. But they certainly realized that George wouldn't have put all the Joanna-Aerys stuff into TWoIaF if he didn't want people to reach certain conclusions. They may not want him to go into that direction, but that doesn't mean they don't realize/accept when he is going in that direction...

And one can assume that they would have asked George whether he wanted to give the impression that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard with the whole thing - and he may even have answered them, making it clear to them that this was the impression he wanted to create (with or without actually confirming that Tyrion was Aerys' bastard in the process).

And at times Ran and Linda have somewhat strange ideas - Ran was completely against the idea that Daemon II was hitting on Dunk in TMK when 'Warriors' came out (which was quite obvious to many people), and both seem to entertain the notion that Aegon might die during the attack on Storm's End - that is not very likely if you ask me. I'm with them in the sense that he'll ultimately feel, but I very much doubt he'll die this early since that would, in effect, cut the whole campaign of the Golden Company short.

From the uncut history of the Westerlands we know that George did not yet have that anniversary tourney stuff in there when he wrote that, making it very likely that the Joanna-Aerys bits found their way into the story when George finally made up his mind how things stand on this whole issue, whose son Tyrion actually was, and how it would be revealed in future books. He was, after all, writing on TWoW at the same time, and could easily have added the Tyrion stuff to the section on the reign of Aerys II when certain things discussed and revealed in the next book were set in stone. The full story of the anniversary tourney might be revealed in TWoW while Yandel got around to give us only the one tantalizing hint.

George usually is very reluctant to set things in stone he has not touched upon in the main series since that forces him to stick to whatever version he hints at. He didn't want to give away much about anything touching on the future of Dunk & Egg, after all (and the accounts of the reigns of Maekar and Aegon V are effectively a joke if you ask for actual historical details - we don't even learn who Egg's Hand was or who the lords were who opposed his reforms).

Realistically speaking, the deliberate inclusion of hints that Joanna and Aerys could have had the chance to conceive Tyrion in 272 AC is more than enough evidence for me that they most likely did. George has never used hints as subtle as this to actually lead the reader astray, and you only notice this whole thing if you are looking for clues. The casual reader won't notice anything just as I completely overlooked the clues in AGoT that Littlefinger was lying about the dagger or that Lysa may have murdered her husband.

In my opinion, the hints about Tyrion, Joanna, and Aerys in TWoIaF are there to point the attentive reader in the right direction or to be ignored by the casual reader. They are not there to confuse the attentive reader and have reach the wrong conclusion that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard. That would go completely against George established style. I mean, if he uses wrong clues with this one, why not with, say, the prophecies (could be faked/misunderstood in-universe, too), the visions from the House of the Undying (the Undying wanted to feed on Daenerys, they had no reason to tell her the truth), all the clues surrounding Jon Snow, and so on?

If the evidence for them was enough, they'd believe in the theory, now wouldn't they? Because liking a theory, and recognizing it is probably true, are two different things.

As far as I can recall reading, they don't believe the theory to be true. Can't recall reading anything about liking the theory or not.

Perhaps GRRM wanted to create the impression. But that in itself doesn't make the theory true. So if someone assesses all the info available to him, and, while agreeing that "fuel has been added to the fire", expresses that he still doesn't believe in the theory, he'll not be then hinting to the theory being true in a statement made in an interview.

You make such statements for theories you believe in (or know to be true), not those you don't believe in/agree with.

As to the bolded part, the Westerland section in the book doesn't say a word about the Anniversaty tourney either. That's only described in the chapter on Aerys II, not in the chapters of the Westerlands. And we have no uncut edition of the Aerys II chapter.

 

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I was unaware of his position on this theory. Do you know when he said this? Is is possible the worldbook changed his mind? Do you have any thoughts on what else he might have been getting at? Because I really don't...

That's what I recall reading around the time TWOIAF came out. Don't have a link handy, though, so if anyone else does?

It is always possible that he changed his mind. But if he did, either I've not read about it, or he hasn't stated anything about it in public.

 

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Edit: didn't he make a post at one point about how Martin had "thrown fuel on the fire" of the Aerys/Tyrion thing with the worldbook? 

Yes.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I don't see how ruling out a relatively unpopular theory that Jaime and Cersei were Aerys's kids could be the most relevant thing in the book to the Song of Ice and Fire storyline. Tyrion being Aerys's son and the third head of the dragon could easily be. 

I don't think his answer to the question goes anywhere near the Viserys was the heir thing. He's talking about Tywin and Aerys's falling out, and the implications for Tywin and Aerys's children. Yeah, if Tywin had supported Aerys early on in the rebellion Rhaegar may not have died and thus Viserys would not have been named heir. But it's quite a stretch to say that Tywin and Aerys's falling out led to Viserys being named heir over Aegon. 

The Viserys thing might be part of it, but I doubt that's all of it. I was thinking more along the lines of the answer to the question "why did Aerys and Rhaella not have any children between Rhaegar and Viserys?", as well as the way Aerys's experience with having children (one born during a traumatic event, the others either stillborn, miscarriages, of dying in the cradle) drastically contrasts with the birth of Tywin's golden twins, and how the way Aerys backslashed ("They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last", as well as his stealing of Jaime and insulting Cersei) would influence the remainder of their relationship. How Tywin's golden children made Aerys jealous, and most importantly, why. 

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

If Elio became convinced when writing Woiaf he's not going to say anything about it, because it would be quite spoilery to do so.  After all, whatever information we get from what was published, Elio certainly got even more that didn't make the final cut.  It would be VERY hard for him to be sure that what he was saying wasn't colored by unpublished information and Elio would not betray GRRMs trust by intentionally revealing such information to fans.

So the fact that he stays silent about his own opinion doesn't indicate things one way or another.  What he does say there is I think pretty revealing - which is basically that the world book objectively bolsters the foundations of A + J = T (Aerys and Johanna had a history and Johanna was in KL when Tyrion could have been conceived).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think that if he were to change his mind based on the published information, he should be free to say so. If it is because if information not publicly available (not printed, not stated in interviews, not stated during Q&A's, etc), then yeah, that information shouldn't be used.

But, if it is information not available to us that made him change his mind, and he is not willing to say at this point that he changed his mind, wouldn't it then be strange to assume that he is giving hints in favor of the theory, on purpose? 

[Lord Varys]

Well, that should give you a pretty good impression on Ran/Linda's view on the whole as presumably both/either of them wrote it:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_is_Tyrions_father

It wasn't necessarily written with TWoIaF stuff in mind, though, since it has been last revised in July 2012.

In general, liking a theory is a pretty important part of being open to the evidence supporting it. I cited the example of Ran being heavily opposed to the Daemon hitting on Dunk thing for precisely that reason - there are clear hints to that effect in the text, but you don't have to/can refuse to read them in a certain way. Come to think of it, he may even have been opposed to the idea that Daemon and Alyn Cockshaw actually had a sexual relationship - he only went as far as acknowledging that Alyn was in love with Daemon.

I think Ran/Linda mention in some of their videos that they don't particularly like the Tyrion-Aerys idea, but they don't really argue against that, either. And we should all keep in mind that Ran/Linda do not necessarily have a better view on the books than we do (apart from instances when they actually have read chapters we don't know yet, of course).

Not to mention that we have it verbatim from Ran that he occasionally continues to argue in favor of theories that have been confirmed to be factually wrong simply to not reveal or indicate that he has read such things. If he suddenly changed his mind on this or that important topic where he had had a different opinion previously - without a new book coming out in-between - people would begin wondering why that was the case.

Tyrion being Aerys' son by Joanna is the only reasonably interesting/important thing from the entire section of Aerys II. The details about the depth of Aerys and Tywin's friendship and their eventual falling out are interesting, but not really important for the overall story. Both men are dead, after all. Aerys and Rhaella not getting any children for a long period of time is also no news - we knew when Rhaegar was born, and we roughly knew when Viserys was born. It was pretty obvious that there must have been issues (sickness, stillbirths, miscarriages) that prevented the royal couple from having more children.

Ran/Linda mention the section on the Year of the First Spring as another source of new information - and those are in there. Rhaegar plotting against Aerys, Rhaegar and Aerys being at each other's throats, the coronation of Lyanna interpreted as a hint/proof that the Starks and Rhaegar were conspiring against Aerys is all new and potentially very important stuff. The Viserys heir thing only comes during the section on Robert's Rebellion - while that one is interesting, too, it is largely irrelevant and only concerns certain special discussions and interpretations of certain theories.

I actually think Ran/Linda have the same issues with the Tyrion thing as I did back when I first stumbled on that idea prior to the publication of ADwD - it just felt weird and wrong in light of that internal Lannister family dynamic. Lets just assume for a moment Ned had raised Jon Snow as his own legitimate son (say, from a first wife, Ashara Dayne Stark, who died in this scenario prior to the marriage to Catelyn). Pretty much nobody would like the idea then that Jon Stark was actually not the son of Ned Stark but the son of his sister with Prince Rhaegar. Something similar is at work with Tyrion. He has been established as a Lannister, he is a Lannister, and he should remain a Lannister.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In general, liking a theory is a pretty important part of being open to the evidence supporting it. I cited the example of Ran being heavily opposed to the Daemon hitting on Dunk thing for precisely that reason - there are clear hints to that effect in the text, but you don't have to/can refuse to read them in a certain way. Come to think of it, he may even have been opposed to the idea that Daemon and Alyn Cockshaw actually had a sexual relationship - he only went as far as acknowledging that Alyn was in love with Daemon.

A bit offtopic but, did they have a relationship? I read the story as Alyn clearly having feelings for Daemon since their youth, and thus becomming increasingly jealous when Daemon flirted with Dunk.

 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Ran/Linda mention in some of their videos that they don't particularly like the Tyrion-Aerys idea, but they don't really argue against that, either. And we should all keep in mind that Ran/Linda do not necessarily have a better view on the books than we do (apart from instances when they actually have read chapters we don't know yet, of course).

Not to mention that we have it verbatim from Ran that he occasionally continues to argue in favor of theories that have been confirmed to be factually wrong simply to not reveal or indicate that he has read such things. If he suddenly changed his mind on this or that important topic where he had had a different opinion previously - without a new book coming out in-between - people would begin wondering why that was the case.

But that's the thing. If The World of Ice and Fire changed his mind, he'd have every reason (and oppertunity) to say so. It is only normal to change your mind about stuff every now and then, when new info becomes available.

 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion being Aerys' son by Joanna is the only reasonably interesting/important thing from the entire section of Aerys II. The details about the depth of Aerys and Tywin's friendship and their eventual falling out are interesting, but not really important for the overall story. Both men are dead, after all. Aerys and Rhaella not getting any children for a long period of time is also no news - we knew when Rhaegar was born, and we roughly knew when Viserys was born. It was pretty obvious that there must have been issues (sickness, stillbirths, miscarriages) that prevented the royal couple from having more children.

I disagree. Understanding all that went on with Aerys, and simultaneously with Tywin, and how that shaped these two men to be who they would eventually become, was not only very interesting, but actually has relevance on the story. Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei were shaped by Tywin, but to understand Tywin's behaviour, you first need to understand the man. And I'd say that TWOIAF showed us quite a lot of new info in that regard.

[RumHam]

37 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Just a suggestion, man

Yeah, I know. I hope I didn't come off as a dick there that was not my intention. 

43 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Yes.

The Viserys thing might be part of it, but I doubt that's all of it. I was thinking more along the lines of the answer to the question "why did Aerys and Rhaella not have any children between Rhaegar and Viserys?", as well as the way Aerys's experience with having children (one born during a traumatic event, the others either stillborn, miscarriages, of dying in the cradle) drastically contrasts with the birth of Tywin's golden twins, and how the way Aerys backslashed ("They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last", as well as his stealing of Jaime and insulting Cersei) would influence the remainder of their relationship. How Tywin's golden children made Aerys jealous, and most importantly, why. 

 

So he does believe the theory was bolstered by the worldbook. Maybe he doesn't want to believe the theory, but feels that it is likely Martin put those hints in for a reason. Thus the section is likely to be relevant. 

I'm not really sure that Aerys and Rhaella not having children between Rhaegar and Viserys is really all that important or relevant to the plot of the novels. I mean he was asked what was the most relevant thing to the main series' plot was and he said that stuff about Tywin and Aerys and their children even before the Tourney at Harrenhal. Stuff explaining why Tywin's relationship with Aerys soured doesn't seem like it would be that important, unless there was a lot more to it. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

A bit offtopic but, did they have a relationship? I read the story as Alyn clearly having feelings for Daemon since their youth, and thus becomming increasingly jealous when Daemon flirted with Dunk.

But that's the thing. If The World of Ice and Fire changed his mind, he'd have every reason (and oppertunity) to say so. It is only normal to change your mind about stuff every now and then, when new info becomes available.

I disagree. Understanding all that went on with Aerys, and simultaneously with Tywin, and how that shaped these two men to be who they would eventually become, was not only very interesting, but actually has relevance on the story. Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei were shaped by Tywin, but to understand Tywin's behaviour, you first need to understand the man. And I'd say that TWOIAF showed us quite a lot of new info in that regard.

I think they at least had a sexual relationship/affair of some sort. Daemon makes one remark that Alyn grows irritating when he is drunk, suggesting that he has had experiences with that thing. And one assumes that Alyn got at least 'one shot' on Daemon or else Alyn wouldn't have such high hopes that he and Daemon could have some sort of permanent relationship.

But I could be reading more into that - although Yandel's remarks on the relationship between Daemon and Alyn also seems to suggest that people thought they had some sort of sexual/romantic relationship.

Well, it might be that they don't want to add even more fuel to the fire of an unpopular theory. I for one wouldn't do that. Let the people find out themselves once the books come out. And we really don't know if they only changed their mind on the basis of the published material or if they saw stuff that was cut/not published. I mean, if they had to tweak the section on Aerys II a little bit one can imagine them asking about whether they could skip/cut the whole anniversary tourney stuff, you know, so that they don't create the false impression of Tyrion being Aerys' son... And he may then have replied that this is the impression he wanted to create.

The Viserys heir certainly would have been a similar situation. They would have double-checked with George to ensure that Viserys III was Aerys' chosen heir after Rhaegar's death, and not Prince Aegon.

Tywin and Aerys' relationship is not really important. Both men are dead, and knowing that Tywin was a much better person back in his youth than the man he became is interesting, but not crucial information. Not even in relation to the people his children became because Tywin was very much an absent father anyway - he lived at court, whereas his children were at Casterly Rock where they were brought up by his wife and siblings. Cersei eventually would have spend some prolonged time with her father in KL, but Jaime would have seen very little of his father since he sent away to Crakehall as a squire. Only Tyrion would have spend a lot of time with his father after the latter had resigned and returned to Casterly Rock (at which time Jaime was already in the KG and Cersei would then soon marry Robert and permanently leave the Rock).

TWoIaF gives us a lot of interesting but not really relevant stuff - for instance it is great to know that Steffon and Aerys were friends, too, because that makes it interesting that Robert becomes the man who deposes the Targaryen dynasty, but Steffon being Aerys' friend had nothing to do with all that.

And I really don't think Tywin's attitude towards his children would have been much different if he hadn't fallen out with Tywin. He was a hard man even in his youth - eventually he lost pretty much all his joy in life, thanks to Aerys, but I don't think he would have been a loving father to any of his children even if Joanna had lived. He would have known more joy, personally, but he would have still been disgusted by Tyrion and pushed Cersei and Jaime to do whatever the hell he expected from them.