A+J=T v.8

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This is why I think the fact that Tywin actually raised Tyrion as his son could make him a better man than we commonly thought he was. He could never bring himself to love him and he clearly despised him, but he allowed him to live under his roof, wear the Lannister arms, and so on.

There are many reasons why he may have done so - first there could be Lyanna-like situation in which Joanna begged Tywin on her deathbed to not blame the child and take care of him. If Tywin loved his cousin and wife as dearly as he supposedly did - and there is no reason to believe that this wasn't the case - then this could explain why he took Tyrion in as his son. Another reason could be that he could not bring himself to kill or physically hurt a child of Joanna's even if he did not promise her to raise the child. We have to keep in mind that Tywin's deep love for the late Joanna Lannister (long dead by the time the series begins) most likely was introduced for a reason (no one ever mentions the 'deep love' Lord Rickard felt for his dead wife, Hoster felt for Minisa Whent, and so on) - and one of the reasons might be that Tywin's love for his wife was supposed to make it plausible why he would raise the king's bastard as his own son.

Ehm..

"He misses her still," Ser Brynden answered. "You have her face. I can see it in your cheekbones, and your jaw . . ."

Some three decades after Minisa's death, Hoster still misses her, apparently. That would imply that he loved her quite a lot, wouldn't you agree?

[purple-eyes]

Honestly, if Tywin knew Tyrion is son of Aerys, no matter how he loved Joanna, I highly doubt he will raise Tyrion as his own son. 

This will only increase his anger and Tyrion will die immediately after birth for sure. 

This is completely different thing as Ned and Lyanna drama. Lyanna is his sister, not his wife. 

A man's wife was raped or seduced by another man, get a baby, then wife died at childbirth, and this man would raise this son as his own child because his love in his wife? seriously?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Honestly, if Tywin knew Tyrion is son of Aerys, no matter how he loved Joanna, I highly doubt he will raise Tyrion as his own son. 

This will only increase his anger and Tyrion will die immediately after birth for sure. 

This is completely different thing as Ned and Lyanna drama. Lyanna is his sister, not his wife. 

A man's wife was raped or seduced by another man, get a baby, then wife died at childbirth, and this man would raise this son as his own child because his love in his wife? seriously?

 

Like Vorenus said, "honor demands that he die." 

[Lord Varys]

Ehm..

"He misses her still," Ser Brynden answered. "You have her face. I can see it in your cheekbones, and your jaw . . ."

Some three decades after Minisa's death, Hoster still misses her, apparently. That would imply that he loved her quite a lot, wouldn't you agree?

Well, the fact that I forgot that line is testament enough that the love between Hoster and Minisa isn't as important a plot point as Tywin's love for Joanna.

 

A man's wife was raped or seduced by another man, get a baby, then wife died at childbirth, and this man would raise this son as his own child because his love in his wife? seriously?

This happens all the time, you know. There are even women who raise a child born from rape instead of aborting it or handing it over to abortion. There are even husbands who help their women to raise such children. And lastly there are a lot of stepfathers and stepmothers in Martinworld as well as reality. Yeah, they might (and actually do) treat their stepchildren like shit (or at least treat them worse than their own children - consciously or unconsciously) but they usually don't kill them unless they are, well, evil criminals.

Tywin may have no problems murdering people who have no Lannister blood, but Tyrion is still Joanna's son. If he loved her as much as he supposedly did it makes a lot of sense that he could not kill her son. Child murder and kinslaying a vile sins in this world, and as far as we know Tywin never harmed or killed another Lannister.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well, the fact that I forgot that line is testament enough that the love between Hoster and Minisa isn't as important a plot point as Tywin's love for Joanna.

Or is it a testament to you being wrong?

[purple-eyes]

Well, the fact that I forgot that line is testament enough that the love between Hoster and Minisa isn't as important a plot point as Tywin's love for Joanna.

This happens all the time, you know. There are even women who raise a child born from rape instead of aborting it or handing it over to abortion. There are even husbands who help their women to raise such children. And lastly there are a lot of stepfathers and stepmothers in Martinworld as well as reality. Yeah, they might (and actually do) treat their stepchildren like shit (or at least treat them worse than their own children - consciously or unconsciously) but they usually don't kill them unless they are, well, evil criminals.

Tywin may have no problems murdering people who have no Lannister blood, but Tyrion is still Joanna's son. If he loved her as much as he supposedly did it makes a lot of sense that he could not kill her son. Child murder and kinslaying a vile sins in this world, and as far as we know Tywin never harmed or killed another Lannister.

This is not reality. We can not estimate Tywin based on current standards. 

Victarion beat his pregnant wife to death and felt it is his obligation just because she slept with Euron and child is his. he indeed loved this wife. This baby is his nephew too. Aegon killed his mistress (he claimed he loved her) and her lover.

I think Tywin may not kill Tyrion, but surely will try to get rid of him and will never raise him as a step-son. It is a shame to him. His wife was raped or seduced by his enemy. Plus Tyrion's birth made Joanna die.  

[Lord Varys]

This is not reality. We can not estimate Tywin based on current standards. 

Victarion beat his pregnant wife to death and felt it is his obligation just because she slept with Euron and child is his. he indeed loved this wife. This baby is his nephew too. Aegon killed his mistress (he claimed he loved her) and her lover.

I think Tywin may not kill Tyrion, but surely will try to get rid of him and will never raise him as a step-son. It is a shame to him. His wife was raped or seduced by his enemy. Plus Tyrion's birth made Joanna die.  

We certainly can't judge Tywin on savage Ironborn customs either, can we? Last I looked the man was not Ironborn.

And I'm not saying that this is the only possible scenario, I'm saying it is possible that Tywin would not murder the child of Joanna's. If Joanna also asked him to take care of the child, and if Tywin was not completely certain whose child Tyrion was then this could also have influenced his decision. If your picture of Tywin doesn't allow him to raise a child of Aerys' as his own he may never have known.

But I find the idea intriguing that he may have known because that would add another layer to Tywin. And George is, for some reason, adding quite a lot of layers to this man despite the fact that he is dead. Suddenly he could smile (AFfC) and even laugh (TWoIaF), completely changing the picture of the man we had solely based on the first three books. That would all be irrelevant if Tywin was not still somehow relevant to the plot, and he (and Joanna) can only be relevant to the plot if we are going to find out something about them we don't already know. Something important.

[Weirdo]

This is not reality. We can not estimate Tywin based on current standards. 

Victarion beat his pregnant wife to death and felt it is his obligation just because she slept with Euron and child is his. he indeed loved this wife. This baby is his nephew too. Aegon killed his mistress (he claimed he loved her) and her lover.

I think Tywin may not kill Tyrion, but surely will try to get rid of him and will never raise him as a step-son. It is a shame to him. His wife was raped or seduced by his enemy. Plus Tyrion's birth made Joanna die.  

Lannisters are not Ironborn - they are practically arch-enemies. The Ironborn reave and take slaves and have a different religion than the mainland. Ned raising Jon is a more apt analogy than Victarion, by a long shot.

And let's not forget, when the time was ripe, Tywin did try to get rid of Tyrion. Acknowledging him as Aerys's bastard would have certainly been shameful to Tywin, exposing his wife's love for Aerys to the world. Prosecuting Tyrion for murder disposes of the bastard while preserving Joanna's honor.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, the fact that I forgot that line is testament enough that the love between Hoster and Minisa isn't as important a plot point as Tywin's love for Joanna.

 

Or you paid more attention to one and then couldn't remember the other. But that doesn't make Hosters love for Minisa any  less important than Tywin's love for Joanna.

[Jô Maltese]

Tywin could not bear to be laughed at in public - and certainly being sung as a cuckolded husband was the one thing he wanted to avoid the most. This IMHO is the reason why he did not kill Tyrion and raised him as his own son: he had to make sure Tyrion would be a true Lannister in the public's eye. 

[Lord Varys]

Or you paid more attention to one and then couldn't remember the other. But that doesn't make Hosters love for Minisa any  less important than Tywin's love for Joanna.

No it is not, because George doesn't spend as much time establishing that love than he does establishing Tywin's love for Joanna - which is a topic in multiple books of the series. Minisa Whent is effectively a non-character in comparison to Joanna Lannister.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Lannisters are not Ironborn - they are practically arch-enemies. The Ironborn reave and take slaves and have a different religion than the mainland. Ned raising Jon is a more apt analogy than Victarion, by a long shot.

And let's not forget, when the time was ripe, Tywin did try to get rid of Tyrion. Acknowledging him as Aerys's bastard would have certainly been shameful to Tywin, exposing his wife's love for Aerys to the world. Prosecuting Tyrion for murder disposes of the bastard while preserving Joanna's honor.

But he could have just allowed him to die. 

Tywin could not bear to be laughed at in public - and certainly being sung as a cuckolded husband was the one thing he wanted to avoid the most. This IMHO is the reason why he did not kill Tyrion and raised him as his own son: he had to make sure Tyrion would be a true Lannister in the public's eye. 

It goes beyond that, though. Tywin isan asshole, sure, but if Tyrion had played by Tywin's rules, he would have had a pretty fair life, relatively speaking given the world he lived in, thanks to Tywin. Tywin recognized Tyrion's worth as demonstrated by his trust in placing Tyrion in vital roles of responsibility. 

[Lord Varys]

But he could have just allowed him to die. 

It goes beyond that, though. Tywin isan asshole, sure, but if Tyrion had played by Tywin's rules, he would have had a pretty fair life, relatively speaking given the world he lived in, thanks to Tywin. Tywin recognized Tyrion's worth as demonstrated by his trust in placing Tyrion in vital roles of responsibility. 

Well, it seems if Tywin tried to let him die - but Tyrion just didn't die. Again, giving poison to the child or not feeding it would have been murder, and he may not have been willing to do that. But he certainly didn't treat him all that well, even as a child.

And again, if Tyrion was Aerys' son he would have been of the king's own blood - killing him could have raised the ire of the king, and Tyrion dying in general might have brought additional attention to the dwarf, strengthening the rumors about his parentage. Just because nobody during the series seems to think/repeat that Tyrion might be Aerys' bastard doesn't mean that certain people reached that conclusion back in 273 AC. Especially not any observant courtiers and guests at court during the anniversary tourney.

Tywin never intended for Tyrion to play any important role at all. He is desperate in AGoT, and only intended for Tyrion to rein in Cersei and Joffrey. He never wanted him to continue to play an important role. Tywin had no interest in hearing Tyrion's version after Cersei told him about his threats against Tommen, remember?

And keep in mind that Tywin actually tried to have his son killed during the Battle of the Green Fork! A fact people usually seem to forget. Tywin expected that the lines of the clansmen would break - which could very easily have resulted in Tyrion's ignominious death in battle. One can even speculate that part of the reason why he went to war so quickly was to provoke Catelyn/Lysa into executing Tyrion...

[Lost Melnibonean]

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

It was a bit more than that, LV...

When they were alone, Lord Tywin glanced at Tyrion. "Your savages might relish a bit of rapine. Tell them they may ride with Vargo Hoat and plunder as they like—goods, stock, women, they may take what they want and burn the rest."

"Telling Shagga and Timett how to pillage is like telling a rooster how to crow," Tyrion commented, "but I should prefer to keep them with me." Uncouth and unruly they might be, yet the wildlings were his, and he trusted them more than any of his father's men. He was not about to hand them over.

"Then you had best learn to control them. I will not have the city plundered."

"The city?" Tyrion was lost. "What city would that be?"

"King's Landing. I am sending you to court."

It was the last thing Tyrion Lannister would ever have anticipated.

He reached for his wine, and considered for a moment as he sipped. "And what am I to do there?"

"Rule," his father said curtly

Tyrion hooted with laughter. "My sweet sister might have a word or two to say about that!"

"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that co**ckless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false . . . "

Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls."

"I see you have taken a few lessons from me."

"More than you know, Father," Tyrion answered quietly. He finished his wine and set the cup aside, thoughtful. A part of him was more pleased than he cared to admit. Another part was remembering the battle upriver, and wondering if he was being sent to hold the left again. "Why me?" he asked, co**cking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a . . . bigger man?"

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left. Tyrion wanted to slap him, to spit in his face, to draw his dagger and cut the heart out of him and see if it was made of old hard gold, the way the smallfolks said. Yet he sat there, silent and still.

Tyrion IX, Game 69

And just because Tywin expected Tyrion's savages to break doesn't mean he wanted Tyrion to die during the battle. 

[Lord Varys]

It was a bit more than that, LV...

And just because Tywin expected Tyrion's savages to break doesn't mean he wanted Tyrion to die during the battle. 

It is what Tyrion happens to believe, though. Tyrion never participated in a battle before, and Tywin threw him in the thick of things - remember, he was not given command of an army but had to serve under Ser Gregor Clegane.

You can compare that whole thing to a father urging his son on to jump over an abyss he will most likely not be able to cross.

Tyrion also - quite correctly I think, since we are never giving an opposing view on the matter - concludes that Tywin considers Jaime a dead man after his capture and the subsequent news about the execution of Eddard Stark. He most likely assumes that Robb will sooner or later chop off Jaime's head, too, and there is nothing he can do about that. In that light he sort of needs Tyrion.

But that quickly changes after the Blackwater, doesn't it? Tywin is completely in control of things again, Jaime's is free and coming home, and Tywin can finally rid himself of Tyrion forever. First with the Sansa-Winterfell plan, and then with by sentencing him to death and executing him as a kingslayer. Any man having even a shred of fatherly affection for Tyrion would either have not conducted a trial against him or not presided over the trial because, you know, he could not have impartial on the whole thing. Tywin did neither of that and had no problem at all to sentence his son to death and severely discipline him during the trial.

[Lost Melnibonean]

You can compare that whole thing to a father urging his son on to jump over an abyss he will most likely not be able to cross.

Only in a world where young men are expected to jump abysses, otherwise it's a faulty analogy. In ASOIAF, the men of noble houses are expected to fight, even lead men, in war. 

[Lord Varys]

Only in a world where young men are expected to jump abysses, otherwise it's a faulty analogy. In ASOIAF, the men of noble houses are expected to fight, even lead men, in war. 

But Tyrion is effectively a cripple. He may have been able to command men for the rear, like Tywin himself did, but certainly not from the front as he was supposed to do during the battle. The chances were pretty good that he would have died - and had the lines of the clansmen broken both he and Bronn most certainly would have been killed. Or do you think Gregor would have come to Tyrion's rescue?

[Jô Maltese]

Now this passage is very interesting, because as Tyrion realises it, Tywin is at this very moment convinced that Jaime is as good as dead. So trueborn or not, Tyrion at that time is Tywin's only option to perpetuate his Lannister great ambition. Arguably, Tywin might have realised it after he decided to send Tyrion to his likely death and this would explain his seemingly genuine relief and his decisive change of stance when Tyrion made it back after all.

[Lost Melnibonean]

But Tyrion is effectively a cripple. He may have been able to command men for the rear, like Tywin himself did, but certainly not from the front as he was supposed to do during the battle. The chances were pretty good that he would have died - and had the lines of the clansmen broken both he and Bronn most certainly would have been killed. Or do you think Gregor would have come to Tyrion's rescue?

I don't think Tywin gave much more than a fig whether Tyrion survived the battle. He still had Jaime at that time, and he expected to defeat the North having already defeated the Riverlands and knowing that the Vale was staying home. He could have taken his army to King's Landing and ruled himself, but I wonder what he would have done about Renly.