LBGTQ - 4 out of 5 cats prefer lesbians

[Xray the Enforcer]

On 12/10/2016 at 0:14 PM, Erik of Hazelfield said:

I just wanted to pop in here and say that I just recently started reading this thread and it's already made me think differently about how I view LGBTQ people, and nonbinaries in particular. I'm a straight white guy, as ignorant as they come, but reading your testimonies about the difficulties LGBTQ people face every day, the realization slowly dawns upon me that this is... for real, if you know what I mean. It's not about fancy parades or insisting on particular terminology being used - it's about facing ignorance, prejudice, hate or even laws preventing you from doing normal stuff that we straight people take for granted. 

Thanks for opening my eyes on this and keep on being awesome! 

I also wanted to acknowledge this post. Thank you for being cool with just sitting back and letting people talk, and learn from our experiences. I am sure if you have specific questions we'd be happy to answer them, but I think that just watching a group go about its business is one of the best ways to learn about the issues facing that group -- and is frequently the most respectful. Anyhoo, welcome.

[karaddin]

59 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

also:  to everyone else. I'm trying to gather my thoughts for a coherent post, rather than just barfing things up here.

 

Barf away I say! I've never seen you say anything even peripherally related to these subjects that I haven't thought had value.

Yukle - Thanks, I can assure you I can't do make up like that myself though

[Xray the Enforcer]

13 hours ago, felice said:

9 hours left - they've achieved the minimum necessary to go ahead, but would like more funding to pay the authors better rates etc.

supported!

[felice]

6 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

supported!

Thanks - much appreciated 8)

[Xray the Enforcer]

One thing I'd like to just put there before I ramble my way down the rabbit hole: I am fully supportive of everyone's preferred gender expression -- that is, I am totally supportive of those people who identify as a woman or a man (e.g. living the binary), in addition to those who identify somewhere on the gender spectrum, and those who are agender, or some other option that I've forgotten right now because it's early in the morning. Whatever I end up writing here will likely focus on genderqueer issues (since that's my frame of reference), but I don't want to be exclusive to those who identify primarily as a single gender. 

One thing that Serano brings up in her book is the now-ancient (1990s) belief in many progressive/feminist circles that gender is entirely socialized, and that gender expression is entirely performative. It did not hit me until now that I never believed that, and the prevalence of those thoughts really shaped how I engaged with progressive/feminist/queer groups. In short, I kept to myself about my gender expression, but engaged on issues regarding sexual orientation (can I just say how much I hate the word "pansexual?" because I really hate that word even if it describes my orientation the most accurately) and on your standard feminist issues. 

When I was talking to myself the other day (stop looking at me like that I know you all talk to yourselves too), I ended up describing myself as "a multi-gendered robot," which makes me laugh given that two of my favorite characters in fiction ever are Justice of Toren and Breq. So there you go, guys: I'm an ancillary. That feels great to admit.

[Sivin]

13 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

One thing I'd like to just put there before I ramble my way down the rabbit hole: I am fully supportive of everyone's preferred gender expression -- that is, I am totally supportive of those people who identify as a woman or a man (e.g. living the binary), in addition to those who identify somewhere on the gender spectrum, and those who are agender, or some other option that I've forgotten right now because it's early in the morning. Whatever I end up writing here will likely focus on genderqueer issues (since that's my frame of reference), but I don't want to be exclusive to those who identify primarily as a single gender. 

One thing that Serano brings up in her book is the now-ancient (1990s) belief in many progressive/feminist circles that gender is entirely socialized, and that gender expression is entirely performative. It did not hit me until now that I never believed that, and the prevalence of those thoughts really shaped how I engaged with progressive/feminist/queer groups. In short, I kept to myself about my gender expression, but engaged on issues regarding sexual orientation (can I just say how much I hate the word "pansexual?" because I really hate that word even if it describes my orientation the most accurately) and on your standard feminist issues. 

When I was talking to myself the other day (stop looking at me like that I know you all talk to yourselves too), I ended up describing myself as "a multi-gendered robot," which makes me laugh given that two of my favorite characters in fiction ever are Justice of Toren and Breq. So there you go, guys: I'm an ancillary. That feels great to admit.

I don't have the slightest idea what any of that means, but I give you my heartiest HUZZAH!

[Lily Valley]

28 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

One thing I'd like to just put there before I ramble my way down the rabbit hole: I am fully supportive of everyone's preferred gender expression -- that is, I am totally supportive of those people who identify as a woman or a man (e.g. living the binary), in addition to those who identify somewhere on the gender spectrum, and those who are agender, or some other option that I've forgotten right now because it's early in the morning. Whatever I end up writing here will likely focus on genderqueer issues (since that's my frame of reference), but I don't want to be exclusive to those who identify primarily as a single gender.

When I was talking to myself the other day (stop looking at me like that I know you all talk to yourselves too), I ended up describing myself as "a multi-gendered robot," which makes me laugh given that two of my favorite characters in fiction ever are Justice of Toren and Breq. So there you go, guys: I'm an ancillary. That feels great to admit.

Another thing Serano did-is-doing-has-also-done is try to come up with NEW language.  She seems genuinely baffled that it took off.  In the second edition prologue, she talks about that a lot.  The vocabulary she introduced is now taken for grante,   The spectrum separation on gender, sex and preference is brilliant.  I think that Ancillary is a great start on binary / queer people.  To ME, that trilogy will always be about a testament to loneliness. I can see how that premise can be true and it can be a call to action for queers who are STILL feeling left out.  Don't be alone, X-Ray.  I see you. :hugs:  :grouphugs:  :gonnagethugsriht: 

[Theda Baratheon]

39 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

One thing I'd like to just put there before I ramble my way down the rabbit hole: I am fully supportive of everyone's preferred gender expression -- that is, I am totally supportive of those people who identify as a woman or a man (e.g. living the binary), in addition to those who identify somewhere on the gender spectrum, and those who are agender, or some other option that I've forgotten right now because it's early in the morning. Whatever I end up writing here will likely focus on genderqueer issues (since that's my frame of reference), but I don't want to be exclusive to those who identify primarily as a single gender. 

One thing that Serano brings up in her book is the now-ancient (1990s) belief in many progressive/feminist circles that gender is entirely socialized, and that gender expression is entirely performative. It did not hit me until now that I never believed that, and the prevalence of those thoughts really shaped how I engaged with progressive/feminist/queer groups. In short, I kept to myself about my gender expression, but engaged on issues regarding sexual orientation (can I just say how much I hate the word "pansexual?" because I really hate that word even if it describes my orientation the most accurately) and on your standard feminist issues. 

When I was talking to myself the other day (stop looking at me like that I know you all talk to yourselves too), I ended up describing myself as "a multi-gendered robot," which makes me laugh given that two of my favorite characters in fiction ever are Justice of Toren and Breq. So there you go, guys: I'm an ancillary. That feels great to admit.

I definitely don't think that gender expression is entirely performative either. I mean...I am a woman, I know that, I'm very comfortable with that but the part of me that loves acting and loves being creative means I really have fun playing around with the way I look and just don't think men and women should dress in strictly different ways - sometimes I want to look less traditionally feminine or i'm not sure. I think I just want to look ''queer'' but none of this changes the core fact that i'm a woman. i've evern stopped thinking of myself as ''girl'' now at 22 but i know i'm a woman, just that word means something different to me than it means to some people. sorry been thinking a lot about gender and sexuality myself lately and becoming more and more comfortable with who i am and that ain't straight lol 

[Robin Of House Hill]

I have no problem with binary people being binary, or non-binary people being non-binary.  I do have a problem with binary people insisting there is no such thing as non-binary, or non-binary people who want to "destroy the binary."

When it comes to gender expression and/or presentation, I do not feel free to stray far from the norms.  Honestly, my goal is to be perceived as an old, tall woman who is not particularly interesting.  In other words, I will do my best to not be noticed. My goal is to survive, unscathed by what is going on around me.  If that means I have to sacrifice a modicum of freedom or happiness, so be it.  Those things are irrelevant without survival.  I know this is not a popular view.

[Lily Valley]

7 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

I have no problem with binary people being binary, or non-binary people being non-binary.  I do have a problem with binary people insisting there is no such thing as non-binary, or non-binary people who want to "destroy the binary."

When it comes to gender expression and/or presentation, I do not feel free to stray far from the norms.  Honestly, my goal is to be perceived as an old, tall woman who is not particularly interesting.  In other words, I will do my best to not be noticed. My goal is to survive, unscathed by what is going on around me.  If that means I have to sacrifice a modicum of freedom or happiness, so be it.  Those things are irrelevant without survival.  I know this is not a popular view.

Better not talk to them, Robin.  You're a great conversationalist. 

As to your first statement, I haven't had much experience with non-binary people wanting to break the bookends of men and women aside from some pretty flippant comments about It.  On the other hand, I haven't had very long conversations with people who make generalizations like "we're all queer".  People can take my woman card from my cold dead hands.  I don't think your opinion is at all unpopular.  I think it's very understandable.

I have thought a lot about gender traits and expression.  Between this group and some reading I've been doing, I started to think about how much easier my career would have been if I had been a man.  I also started thinking about how STIFLING my early years at work were.  I felt I had to present a very feminine appearance to be less threatening.  It worked  On the first thought, I wouldn't trade the BS I've eaten as a woman in a male dominated field to change who I am.  On the second part, I feel very lucky to be able to dress more comfortably and forego cosmetics now that I am established in my field.

I've found that my identity as queer has gotten stronger as I've gotten older.  It's made it difficult to connect well with straight men.  I feel erased, I also feel like they're oblivious to something that's important to me.  Well, we're talking about single straight men my age, there's probably a lot of reasons they're hard to connect to, actually.

[Robin Of House Hill]

1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

Better not talk to them, Robin.  You're a great conversationalist. 

As to your first statement, I haven't had much experience with non-binary people wanting to break the bookends of men and women aside from some pretty flippant comments about It.  On the other hand, I haven't had very long conversations with people who make generalizations like "we're all queer".  People can take my woman card from my cold dead hands.  I don't think your opinion is at all unpopular.  I think it's very understandable.

I have thought a lot about gender traits and expression.  Between this group and some reading I've been doing, I started to think about how much easier my career would have been if I had been a man.  I also started thinking about how STIFLING my early years at work were.  I felt I had to present a very feminine appearance to be less threatening.  It worked  On the first thought, I wouldn't trade the BS I've eaten as a woman in a male dominated field to change who I am.  On the second part, I feel very lucky to be able to dress more comfortably and forego cosmetics now that I am established in my field.

I've found that my identity as queer has gotten stronger as I've gotten older.  It's made it difficult to connect well with straight men.  I feel erased, I also feel like they're oblivious to something that's important to me.  Well, we're talking about single straight men my age, there's probably a lot of reasons they're hard to connect to, actually.

 

When it involves anyone near where I live, I stick to discussing the weather or some similarly boring stuff.  I learned my lesson when I lived in Hollywood.  If people get too comfortable talking to me, they feel it's okay to ask questions I regard as none of their business. There's a narrow path I take so I don't appear unfriendly, while trying to keep people from being curious.  In other words, "nothing here to see, folks."  This may be a fairly liberal area in a conservative state, but we live in an apartment complex with over 260 units, abd I haven't spotted any LGBTIQ residents.  Back in the 80s to mid 90s, my mode of dress was appropriate for the industries and levels at which I worked.  In other words, I did ny best to look like everyone else.

My appearance is designed to be feminine enough to not be perceived as the wrong gender, while not going overboard, At my age, I have no work related issues.  I have no local real world friends.  My wife and I occasionally go out for lunch or dinner, or a movie or to see some local event or attraction.  I don't really need more than that.  Heck, I'm nearly 74 years old.  Anything more strenuous would probably kill me. 

[Lily Valley]

LOL Robin! 

I am changing the subject here. 

Due to a rather unfortunate event, I had to go in and see the Title IX co-ordinator this week.  While I was there, I brought up my interest in starting an LGBT group for the campus.  (I know, I know I talked about doing this years ago, and it was too overwhelming.)

I know that all of you fine people gave me suggestions about what this group might do, but that thread is archived.  Also I'm old and can't remember.  I didn't belong to a LGBT group in College, but I did belong to the physics club.  That was mostly a weekly pizza lunch which gave us a chance to help each other with homework.  We also had a club room with ALL THE VIDEO GAMES and a kegerator.  The grad students brewed it.  It was $1/cup on the honor system

I'm hoping the college will have some real estate I can take over for club members.  I also asked for some direction in getting Title IX and advocacy training before we begin.  I should be ready to launch in the Fall of next year.  Anyone have ideas?  Stuff we could do?  Stuff you would have wanted in College?  @Xray the Enforcer?

Annnnnnnnd a member of the Student Life team just got back to me.  Apparently we have an inactive chapter of the Gay Straight Alliance.  I just looked them up.   :panics:  Oh God what have I gotten myself into!   I am hoping the head of the defunct group at least has a list of resources by campus for me.

[Sivin]

2 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

LOL Robin! 

I am changing the subject here. 

Due to a rather unfortunate event, I had to go in and see the Title IX co-ordinator this week.  While I was there, I brought up my interest in starting an LGBT group for the campus.  (I know, I know I talked about doing this years ago, and it was too overwhelming.)

I know that all of you fine people gave me suggestions about what this group might do, but that thread is archived.  Also I'm old and can't remember.  I didn't belong to a LGBT group in College, but I did belong to the physics club.  That was mostly a weekly pizza lunch which gave us a chance to help each other with homework.  We also had a club room with ALL THE VIDEO GAMES and a kegerator.  The grad students brewed it.  It was $1/cup on the honor system

I'm hoping the college will have some real estate I can take over for club members.  I also asked for some direction in getting Title IX and advocacy training before we begin.  I should be ready to launch in the Fall of next year.  Anyone have ideas?  Stuff we could do?  Stuff you would have wanted in College?  @Xray the Enforcer?

Annnnnnnnd a member of the Student Life team just got back to me.  Apparently we have an inactive chapter of the Gay Straight Alliance.  I just looked them up.   :panics:  Oh God what have I gotten myself into!   I am hoping the head of the defunct group at least has a list of resources by campus for me.

I am returning to college next year. What does an LGBT group do?

[Lily Valley]

11 minutes ago, Sivin said:

I am returning to college next year. What does an LGBT group do?

The (now defunct) one at our college is a chapter of this one.  https://gsanetwork.org/resources/building-your-gsa/what-gsa

They can be socially driven, support driven or activist driven or a combination.  I'd like to try to provide all three.  I'm taking the advocacy and title IX (anti-discrimination and anti-harrasment) training courses in the spring so I know how to refer students to services if I should need to.   At the minimum I'd like to host an on campus or off campus even once a month so LGBT students can find one another.  Other than that, it'll be up to whatever they want.  Student clubs are driven by students.  My college is a commuter college, but we're getting more and more traditional full time students as tuition rises and traditional full time students like clubs.  One of my priorities is going to be to try and steal some permanent real estate to reserve for the group. 

Now, my question to you is what would you LIKE your group to do? 

Also CONGRATS on returning to college!  What are you going to study?

[Sivin]

1 minute ago, Lily Valley said:

The (now defunct) one at our college is a chapter of this one.  https://gsanetwork.org/resources/building-your-gsa/what-gsa

They can be socially driven, support driven or activist driven or a combination.  I'd like to try to provide all three.  I'm taking the advocacy and title IX (anti-discrimination and anti-harrasment) training courses in the spring so I know how to refer students to services if I should need to.   At the minimum I'd like to host an on campus or off campus even once a month so LGBT students can find one another.  Other than that, it'll be up to whatever they want.  Student clubs are driven by students.  My college is a commuter college, but we're getting more and more traditional full time students as tuition rises and traditional full time students like clubs.  One of my priorities is going to be to try and steal some permanent real estate to reserve for the group. 

Now, my question to you is what would you LIKE your group to do? 

Also CONGRATS on returning to college!  What are you going to study?

The mission statement for any club I'm like to join would read:

1) Smoke weed

2) Drink

3) Play Mario Party

I have simple tastes.

And I am going to study film, though I intend to at the very least minor (possibly double major) in Ancient History. Mix in a few courses in animation and I should have as much fun as will be possible during a Trump presidency.

[Lily Valley]

1 minute ago, Sivin said:

The mission statement for any club I'm like to join would read:

1) Smoke weed

2) Drink

3) Play Mario Party

I have simple tastes.

And I am going to study film, though I intend to at the very least minor (possibly double major) in Ancient History. Mix in a few courses in animation and I should have as much fun as will be possible during a Trump presidency.

That sounds great!  I'm not artistically inclined at all, but I LOVED college.  At least, I loved my science classes.  Truly, I can't think of a better way to get your mind off the coming nightmare presidency.  

On clubs, I don't think your campus club will be able to help you on the first one unless you're in Oregon or Colorado.    On the second, parties and mixers, YES!   On the third, our college has a gaming club that is really popular.  I hope yours does too.

[Sivin]

12 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

That sounds great!  I'm not artistically inclined at all, but I LOVED college.  At least, I loved my science classes.  Truly, I can't think of a better way to get your mind off the coming nightmare presidency.  

On clubs, I don't think your campus club will be able to help you on the first one unless you're in Oregon or Colorado.    On the second, parties and mixers, YES!   On the third, our college has a gaming club that is really popular.  I hope yours does too.

Oh, after much internal debate I am going back to Colorado. As a matter of fact, I am moving back at the beginning of summer and not starting class until fall so that I can make up for 18 months of missing out on the devil's leaf. ;)

[Lily Valley]

46 minutes ago, Sivin said:

Oh, after much internal debate I am going back to Colorado. As a matter of fact, I am moving back at the beginning of summer and not starting class until fall so that I can make up for 18 months of missing out on the devil's leaf.

LOL!   Trifecta!  You will certainly find a club that lines up with all your interests.

[Xray the Enforcer]

@Lily Valley -- So, as you already guessed I was heavily involved in my campus LGBTQ+ group when I was a young'un. At the very least, the place has to be a safe space where people feel that they just be there and listen to others, and speak if they want to. Because for as many out-and-proud teens as we have these days, there are still WAY more kids/young adults who are confused and flying under the radar.

My group was also an advocacy group because I went to a Jesuit university and I really enjoyed battling the administration and conservative fucknut alums over things like 1) recognition 2) access to accurate information at the campus health center (I'm ancient, and this was a time when AIDS was still basically a death sentence) 3) access to free condoms, etc. In Louisiana, you're going to have to contend with your crazy bullshit discrimination laws and IIRC your own bullshit bathroom bill. 

One thing I'd suggest for you is to build a space where people feel welcome to just BE. The one thing I've learned over all of these years is Don't Reinvent The Wheel. That is, don't try to set up an advocacy group when you could pair with another group fighting similar battles. I'm guessing that NOLA has those groups for LGBTQ+ people already, so reach out to them and see how you guys can partner. 

I don't have enough coffee in me yet, so I'll stop there for now. I have a lot of thoughts on this (being involved with building similar stuff at my current organization), but the brain computer hasn't quite booted up yet.

One last thought: I think I attended four or five meetings of our LGBTQ+ student group before I ever said a word about myself, and they let me do that. Because while it's easy to know inside that you're different, and somewhat easy to act on those feelings in private, it's a whole 'nothing thing to say those things in public. Even for those of us who otherwise never STFU about anything. Anyway, I was profoundly grateful that they gave me the time I needed to feel comfortable before I told the whole room I thought I was lesbian.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Also, really sorry to hear about the need to go to the Title IX office.