Rant and Rave Without Repercussions - Includes Season 6 Spoilers

[LazyBazooka]

I refuse to believe that Sophie read the script for the season and honestly thought to herself "this is cool, what a good way to develop my character". I like to think she was appalled by it by has to pretend to be cool with it and desperately try to defend it so that she doesn't get killed off and lose her biggest ever job.

[Le Cygne]

I'll just let this speak for itself, she's talking about season 5 here:

"I think the fans will really like where her storyline is going this season."

http://zap2it.com/2014/08/game-of-thrones-season-5-sophie-turner-sansa-different-story-books/

[Stannis is the man....nis]

The kicker is changes they made would have worked had they stayed loyal to the book. Have Wyman show up with like 1,000 men and LF pitches his idea as "anything goes wrong Wyman will protect you". But when LF leaves, the Freys show up and Wyman is now outnumbered and helpless to do anything as Sansa is wed and then raped by Ramsay. Brienne takes on the role of Mace and sneaks in WF killing several men leading to tension. In the brawl, Brienne sneaks Sansa/Reek out only to get captured. Meanwhile Ramsay with the help of the Karstraks pulls off his "20 good men" and burns Stannis siege equipment and his own tent hurting Stannis leading Ramsay to think he's dead. When Ramsay returns he finds Sansa/Reek  have escaped and enraged writes the PL to Jon thinking that's where Sansa is fleeing too. Sansa/Reek are then caught by the Umbers and taken to Stannis camp. Sansa then writes a letter posing as Karstark to Ramasy saying the right words to set him off so he marches out with the cavalry leading to the "nightlamp theory"

[Valetudo]

17 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I'll just let this speak for itself, she's talking about season 5 here:

"I think the fans will really like where her storyline is going this season."

http://zap2it.com/2014/08/game-of-thrones-season-5-sophie-turner-sansa-different-story-books/

Well, I guess she couldn't really come out and say "my story this season will be awful, fans will hate it".

She's doing her job. Promoting the show is a part of it too, so even if she thought otherwise, she had to say what the  marketing department told her to say.

With that said, I also believe that she doesn't understand her character. She, like a lot of viewers, seems to believe in D&D´s shit about her "having a choice" or "being a hardened woman".

 

 

[Valetudo]

A little off topic rant about fanboys in general:

I'm currently reading the Outlander series books and noticed that a lot of the french lines used in the books are wrong. Some of them are just like some google translation where you can see that the author took an English expression and translated it word for word, but that's not how it's said in french, be it actual or even 18th century french. I was born in France, lived there for 18 years and read a lot of books from this period while doing historical research so I believe that I know what I'm talking about.

So I was just doing a little google research to know if Ms Gabaldon knew how to speak french and what was her method to translate these lines, and I found a year old post in her facebook page where she admits that she doesn't speak french. But the post in question was about the Fraser's clan motto; "je suis prest", that is written in old french. Some people complained that it was misspelled when it's not. She then explained this fact, saying that she did good research for it.

Everything was OK until that point, but then Facebook comments appeared. If you thought our own asoiaf forum trolls are bad, Facebook trolls are even worse. So here I am, reading these comments, and all the usual fanboy argumentation is present there. You know, things like, "if you're not happy about it, don't read the books", "how dare you criticize the author", "try to write a book yourself", " say that again when your book sold x copies", "get a life instead of criticizing other people's work"...

Looks like every fanboy has the same reactions when faced against criticism, no matter what. Instead of trying to understand the complaint (that, in this case, was not accurate), they automatically attack the complainer.

I hope that our own rants in this place will never fall into this kind of low level. 

 

[Le Cygne]

12 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

A little off topic rant about fanboys in general:

I'm currently reading the Outlander series books and noticed that a lot of the french lines used in the books are wrong. Some of them are just like some google translation where you can see that the author took an English expression and translated it word for word, but that's not how it's said in french, be it actual or even 18th century french. I was born in France, lived there for 18 years and read a lot of books from this period while doing historical research so I believe that I know what I'm talking about.

So I was just doing a little google research to know if Ms Gabaldon knew how to speak french and what was her method to translate these lines, and I found a year old post in her facebook page where she admits that she doesn't speak french. But the post in question was about the Fraser's clan motto; "je suis prest", that is written in old french. Some people complained that it was misspelled when it's not. She then explained this fact, saying that she did good research for it.

Yes, je suis prest is good, that's the old way. She said she made a mistake with Gaelic, too, for my brown haired lass. She's really cool about it, she fesses up to things, and if any fans get nutty, she tells them to chill. She has a big section in Outlandish Companion II written by an expert in the Gaelic language (the one for the show).

[Ruhail]

7 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

My experience was similar. I hadn't even heard of GOT until after about season 3. My brother mentioned it to me  and then I watched all three seasons and then read the books. The books really raised my expecations for season 4 and 5, which turned out to be disapointing.
 

Same but I read the books first and then binged it all

[Ruhail]

1 hour ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

The kicker is changes they made would have worked had they stayed loyal to the book. Have Wyman show up with like 1,000 men and LF pitches his idea as "anything goes wrong Wyman will protect you". But when LF leaves, the Freys show up and Wyman is now outnumbered and helpless to do anything as Sansa is wed and then raped by Ramsay. Brienne takes on the role of Mace and sneaks in WF killing several men leading to tension. In the brawl, Brienne sneaks Sansa/Reek out only to get captured. Meanwhile Ramsay with the help of the Karstraks pulls off his "20 good men" and burns Stannis siege equipment and his own tent hurting Stannis leading Ramsay to think he's dead. When Ramsay returns he finds Sansa/Reek  have escaped and enraged writes the PL to Jon thinking that's where Sansa is fleeing too. Sansa/Reek are then caught by the Umbers and taken to Stannis camp. Sansa then writes a letter posing as Karstark to Ramasy saying the right words to set him off so he marches out with the cavalry leading to the "nightlamp theory"

Why cant you write this show 

[Ruhail]

Also what kind of writers/showrunners in their right mind adapt a show of this magnitude and decide its a great idea to scrap 100% of Reek-Theon's ADWD content which is arguabley Grrm's best writing and strongest emphasis of character development in the entire series?

[Valetudo]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, je suis prest is good, that's the old way. She said she made a mistake with gaelic, too, for my brown haired lass. She's really cool about it, she fesses up to things, and if any fans get nutty, she tells them to chill. She has a big section in Outlandish Companion II written by an expert in the language.

Yeah, this one is good, but it's an iconic line, so it's normal that she did some research on it. The ones that are wrong are less important, were it's pretty clear that she knew the the translation of the words but did some little grammatical error. I don't remember them specifically but usually it's cases where she replaced "le" by "la" for example. It's still understandable, but it's not exactly correct. One that shocked me was one where the french sentence as written didn't mean anything. I only understood it after translating the words one by one in English, and then it made sense. Again, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I found it kinda odd.

You know, it's like the "omelette du fromage" phrase. It's still understandable, but it's not something a Frenchman would say.

I just find it strange that she didn't have anybody correcting these errors.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

14 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Why cant you write this show 

Same :(. I didn't even get into having Clive Mantle's Greatjon return to fill Mor Umber's role as Umber who catches Sansa. Or how Roose gets hurt in the brawl which is how Ramsay gets the authority to lead the army out after getting the letter. Or how the Manderlys abandon the Bolton/Frey army when it falls through the ice to go back and sieze WF an while they do that an also injured Wyman confronts and kills Roose.

[Le Cygne]

14 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

I just find it strange that she didn't have anybody correcting these errors.

There's an errata section in the Outlandish Companion, the first volume, IIRC. You might like to buy those, lots of good info there, and she writes synopses, too.

[Valetudo]

2 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Same :(. I didn't even get into having Clive Mantle's Greatjon return to fill Mor Umber's role as Umber who catches Sansa. Or how Roose gets hurt in the brawl which is how Ramsay gets the authority to lead the army out after getting the letter. Or how the Manderlys abandon the Bolton/Frey army when it falls through the ice to go back and sieze WF an while they do that an also injured Wyman confronts and kills Roose.

But... Budget, time limits, not possible on TV,... 

The reality is that everybody could write something better than what they just did with a little effort, but they just choose to follow the easiest path, because story telling doesn't seem to be a priority.

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

There's an errata section in the Outlandish Companion, the first volume, IIRC. You might like to buy those, lots of good info there, and she writes synopses, too.

Thanks for the info!

[Stannis is the man....nis]

17 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

But... Budget, time limits, not possible on TV,... 

The reality is that everybody could write something better than what they just did with a little effort, but they just choose to follow the easiest path, because story telling doesn't seem to be a priority.

I know and the funny part is what I pitched could work in tv, just cut the fat off of Dorne, Arya, and Dany's plots (an by fat I mean pointless scenes like the dead guy scrubbing, back and forth on the fighting pit, fighting scene and scrubbing dead guy). Mel/Shireen/Selyse f-off into the CB background after Stannis leaves. We never see Ramsey write the PL we just have Throne receive it in Hardhome episode and give it to Jon in episode 9 when he comes back.  

[Valetudo]

9 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I know and the funny part is what I pitched could work in tv, just cut the fat off of Dorne, Arya, and Dany's plots (an by fat I mean pointless scenes like the dead guy scrubbing, back and forth on the fighting pit, and scrubbing dead guy). Mel/Shireen/Selyse f-off into the CB background after Stannis leaves. We never see Ramsey write the PL we just have Throne receive it in Hardhome episode and give it to Jon in episode 9 when he comes back.  

Yes, these are excuses that apologists like to repeat again and again,but they're only that, excuses.

With better planning, this mess could at least have made some sense, but dumbing down the story seems to be their priority. They don't want a complex story that could scare people away. They know that they can pull it off just by adding some badass line or shocking scene in there anyway, so why bother?

[sweetsunray]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have a question for those who came to the books via the show. 

If series 1 & 2 had been s 4 & 5 level of stoopid, would you have read the books?

No. I was an avid fantasy reader until early 2000s (no idea how I came to miss out on aGoT, aCoK then.), but around book 8 of aWoT I was majorly fed up with the majority that had been out. It had become too generic, and many times inconsistent or illogic. I sold the most I had to a second hand book store, and kept the series I really liked for rereading (Marrion Zimmer Bradley, Tad Williams, Pratchett, Rice, Tolkien of course). I actually had no interest in seeing GoT because of all the hype. Then I binge watched S1 and S2, and I went out to get the books... and I was shocked then already by some of the discrepancies. With the progression of the show seasons I was turned off more and more, while the books (including the last 2) just stand out overall to me. S5 was the worst. They air it half a year later here in Belgium (but I was spoiled on the plot and scene via youtube already). So, I watched S5 recently again on tele, while they were filming for S6, and it's one complete illogical fail from start to end. Whatever those characters are doing on screen, it's completely nonsensical. There are more plot holes in S5 from scene to next scene than the pot hole road I once took from the main road in Baja to Bahia de Los Angeles (and that road was Swiss cheese you couldn't drive faster than 10 mph). It was unbearable to watch the first time around, let alone a second time. Only scenes that stood out were Cersei's WoS and Hardhome (but that too was infested with complete internal illogic that grated me enormously), everything else was just cheap shock garbage, boring and/or nonsensical that I tend to avoid both on TV and in books.

If they think they do certain characters a favor? None - some of their favorites I only started to like because of the books (Dany and Brienne come to mind). You can see immediately how much George loves his POV characters, regardless of their flaws. Especially when you start to analyze their arc, they are quite consistent, even in their inconstancy (which then is more of a character flaw and/or inexperience). There's love for the characters in the books. There's none of it in the show. It's some soap opera where characters reset for the next soap-arc.

I don't intend to especially watch S6 - ain't going to spoil the books anyhow, and there's more consistency and logic in my garbage bin than there is in the show.  

[WhitewolfStark]

4 hours ago, Valetudo said:

Yes, these are excuses that apologists like to repeat again and again,but they're only that, excuses.

With better planning, this mess could at least have made some sense, but dumbing down the story seems to be their priority. They don't want a complex story that could scare people away. They know that they can pull it off just by adding some badass line or shocking scene in there anyway, so why bother?

I'm copying this here since we're talking about how we could have possibly changed things and included the slight hint of complexity in the TV adaptation:

-----------------------------------------------------

Quentyn is the entire motivation behind Arianne's arc. Adapting her without Quentyn would've been like getting the Ellaria we got, but renamed Arianne. I think they were smart. If they weren't going to have Quentyn, cutting Arianne makes sense.

Perhaps they could have changed things so that Trystane and Quentyn were merged, which would've made a bit more sense and added a sense of tension and politics to Dorne. I'd have gladly sacrificed a Sandsnake for an Arianne (there were three Sandsnakes and only two of them made an impression anyway). And meanwhile if Arianne is back, Ellaria could have been supporting Doran from behind the scenes as a twist.

Added scene: a distressed Ellaria meets with Arianne who mentions that she doesn't agree with her father, but there might be another way to get justice for Oberyn. Arianne approaches her father and mentions crowning Myrcella as Queen, per Dornish law. Doran tells her to forget such an idea, that Myrcella is Trystane's betrothed and she will be a fine Princess of Dorne (him meaning as Trystane's wife, but Arianne and the audience interpreting it as Doran favoring Trystane as his heir).

We see the whole Trystane/Myrcella relationship as it is.

We see Arianne meeting with the two Sandsnakes (Tyene and Obara, since Nymeria was forgettable last season) and Ellaria and shares her suspicion that her father seems to be planning to go against centuries of Dornish law and naming Trystane, her younger brother, as his heir because he's betrothed to Myrcella, Obara suggests that they kill Myrcella and reveal Doran's weakness to all of Dorne and start a war with the Iron Throne for that. Ellaria holds reservations when it comes to killing and makes a similar speech to the one she says in the books, but the Sandsnakes appear to "win her over" by reminding her of Oberyn's death.

That right there establishes Dorne with a tad more complexity, interest, and intrigue than just "kill the Princess".

A scene of tension between Arianne and Trystane could be added here as Arianne comments on how fond Trystane is of Myrcella, and establish some backstory between the two and confirm the merging of Trystane and Quentyn's characters by perhaps mentioning that the reason the two siblings aren't close is because he was fostered with the Yronwoods. And Trystane can bring up that he had to pay for Uncle Oberyn's rash mistakes, and that he won't be so foolish as to lose his head. Establishing that while Trystane may be in love with sweet Myrcella, he does have a brain, and explain why Doran would consider sending him to King's Landing. It also unknowingly establishes that there's two types of Dornish characters--those who act first and think later, and those who think first and act later, with Arianne sitting somewhere in between the two types and trying to blend the two together.

Arys Oakheart can be kept in as a minor character, and Arianne does her part by seducing Arys and poisoning him with their show-invented kiss of death idea to clear her way to getting at Myrcella, thus adding tension that Jaime and Bronn better get to Sunspear fast!

Myrcella is so in love with Trystane that she doesn't notice that Arys is missing the next day, and the attack can go similarly, with Obara and Tyene doing the attacking, while Arianne awaits with the horses. Jaime and Bronn show up per the show's invention and Aero Hotah shows up and arrests them all, with Ellaria arriving with guards to take Arianne into custody at the stables.

There's no need for the prison scene between Tyene and Bronn since the poison has already been established with Arys' death. Perhaps the scene is still there, if D&D want Tyene/Bronn so much, but the whole point of him being poisoned by Tyene is taken out. But frankly that would only be to give fanservice by showing Bronn.

Jaime & Myrcella's scene is unaltered. If D&D really want it, Ellaria's scene with Jaime can be kept, but with sincerity instead of overt falsity, if only because it drops a subtle hint that Doran is thinking about allying with the Targaryens to the viewers, but it's mostly unnecessary. Arys' body is given to Jaime and his death blamed on "sun stroke".

Later episode we see Ellaria and Doran sitting together with Trystane and Myrcella when Jaime comes to talk with them. Ellaria and Doran can speak to their peace in our time plans and how Ellaria, even after seeing Oberyn die doesn't want a cycle of vengeance to continue, completing her sentiments that were interrupted by the Sandsnakes before.

Later Doran meets with Arianne and the Sandsnakes like he does with Ellaria in the scene we got, and asks angrily why she disobeyed him. We get a version of the Fire and Blood scene from the books, but with better subtlety that Doran is okay with killing Myrcella so that it can free Trystane to marry Dany eventually, but it can't be done so violently and melodramatically like Arianne was trying to do. This can be achieved through metaphor, doublespeak, or what have you. Ellaria is notably not present in this confrontation and revelation, with Ellaria taking the Sandsnakes out after they re-swear fealty to Doran.

Personally I just would love to see an adaptation of this confrontation between Arianne and Doran:

"Why not? You favor him and always have. He looks like you, he thinks like you, and you mean to give him Dorne, don't trouble to deny it. I read your letter." The words still burned as bright as fire in her memory. "'One day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne,' you wrote him. Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

"I never hated you." Prince Doran's voice was parchment-thin, and full of grief. "Arianne, you do not understand."

"Do you deny you wrote those words?"

"No. That was when Quentyn first went to Yronwood. I did intend for him to follow me, yes. I had other plans for you."

Once outside Ellaria can chide Obara and Tyene and give a hint that a true viper knows when to strike, and when to lay in wait in the grass (a nod to book readers).

We get the same kiss of death sequence, but this time with Arianne giving it to Myrcella, with what appears to be Doran's blessing. We also see Doran giving his son something for him to read once he reaches King's Landing and not before (he whispers).

Myrcella dies like show-canon depicts.

Season five ends the Dornish plot line with Trystane reading his father's letter on the ship in secret, explaining to him the circumstances and his plans for him marrying Daenerys eventually, but in the meantime to make Daenerys' path to Westeros easier by destabilizing the Lannister hold on the Iron Throne from the inside since he cannot. Trystane burns the letter. And then for Season Six can either go along that Trystane is too torn up about Myrcella's death to go along with his plans and decides to do his own thing in King's Landing--or decides to do his father's plans his own way instead of his father's way by abandoning King's Landing and heading East for Mereen and filling out something similar to Quentyn's plot line.

There. I gave a streamlined version of Dorne from the books with only a few minimally added bits and pieces, while keeping D&D's desires mostly in tact (didn't really want to, but mostly to show it could be done). I don't think it's the best version, but it's something closer than we got.

[Tijgy]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Now, when did I read something similar? Ah, right, during the pre-season hype last year...

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/01/30/game-thrones-season-6-sophie-turner-sansa

 

“I mean this season is a really, really big one for Sansa,” the actress said during EW’s SAG Awards party on Friday in Los Angeles. “It’s probably her best season yet. It’s her really coming into her own. She, this season, really commands the respect that she deserves and she grabs hold of it and she runs with it and it’s really good.”

Oh, joy. This will be fun 

9 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

On her armor, it should say, "I was married to Ramsay Bolton, and all I got was this lousy suit of armor."

What is she going to do in that armor? Hurl Lemon Cakes at the enemy?

The whole thing is going to be ridiculous I fear.

Actually I would really like a scene where Sansa starts to throw lemon cakes at an enemy. Would be fun. 

9 hours ago, Valetudo said:

It may be it, but right now it feels like everything that is shown on screen is directly followed by something related to it, even the supposedly meaningless sequences:

Loras sleeps with his buddy - he's arrested for it

a scene between Stannis and his daughter - he burns her

the High Septon does a walk of Same - Cersei too

Barristan has more screentime - talks about Rhaegar and dies

everybody talks about greyscale and Valyria - Jorah gets greyscale in Valyria

Brienne says she'lll kill Stannis - She kills Stannis

Arya puts Trant on her list - She kills him

Random scene in the crypts of Winterfell or at the Wall - obvious foreshadowing to R+L=J

Olly is mad at Jon - he kills him

EDIT: Dany drops her ring - The Bros will find it

It looks like they read somewhere that twists should not come out of nowhere and should be somewhat predictable ( I wonder who could have said something about that), so they decided to literally put clues about everything in there. So Benjen name being casually thrown into the mix for no reason seems a bit odd, specially knowing that it was totally unnecessary. It's not like they needed this huge thing to make Jon go outside. Olly could have said that there was a fire, a fight, or some problem with wildlings, and Jon would have followed him.

Benjen? (don't get into a hype, don't get into a hype, don't get into a hype, ...)

8 hours ago, LongRider said:

  Boy do I agree with this, just did not like the Arya show with the Hound as sidekick.  Hated the 'chicken' episode the worst.

 

Where there just not many scenes? I mean I just really found them boring in season four and thought they could spent the time for something better. 

[Alayne's Shadow.]

10 hours ago, LazyBazooka said:

I refuse to believe that Sophie read the script for the season and honestly thought to herself "this is cool, what a good way to develop my character". I like to think she was appalled by it by has to pretend to be cool with it and desperately try to defend it so that she doesn't get killed off and lose her biggest ever job.

I agree. She really showed it during her post-episode 3 episode, where she was like "Nothing can salvage this situation." And the interviewer was trying to be pleasant about Sansa being back at her home. I think, like any other actor, she's not really allowed to have an opinion. Remember Finn Jones about Loras? Now he seems like the Body Snatchers, since he keeps repeating how Show!Loras is awesome.

As for what she said, I agree with her on the sense that I don't think she's lying. I think Joan of Arc/Elizabeth armor is on the way, and it will be as stupid as we all know it is. Sansa "uniting" the North after her wedding is ridiculous, but then again, she'll really "inspire" respect, god knows why. 

10 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I'll just let this speak for itself, she's talking about season 5 here:

"I think the fans will really like where her storyline is going this season."

http://zap2it.com/2014/08/game-of-thrones-season-5-sophie-turner-sansa-different-story-books/

Yeah, she just  hypes the show. I guess the worst was Nikolaj's comment about season 5 "Best Jaime season yet" lol And we've seen what happened. That said, I don't think that she's lying. I think they really think, after the backlash, that all we want is EMPOWERED!Fansa walking around being badass.

 

“It was amazing because the past five seasons, it feels like it’s been building up and up to that,” she said. “You can only suffer so much before she finally gets her, the respect that she deserves.”

Yeah, because after several rapes in her ancient home, Sansa should really get her "Reward". I'm preparing myself for the awful storyline that is Sansa being rewarded for her rape by conquering the place she was raped in. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

I agree. She really showed it during her post-episode 3 episode, where she was like "Nothing can salvage this situation." And the interviewer was trying to be pleasant about Sansa being back at her home. I think, like any other actor, she's not really allowed to have an opinion. Remember Finn Jones about Loras? Now he seems like the Body Snatchers, since he keeps repeating how Show!Loras is awesome.

As for what she said, I agree with her on the sense that I don't think she's lying. I think Joan of Arc/Elizabeth armor is on the way, and it will be as stupid as well all know it is. Sansa "uniting" the North after her wedding is ridiculous, but then again, she'll really "inspire" respect, god knows why. 

Yeah, she just  hypes the show. I guess the worst was Nikolaj's comment about season 5 "Best Jaime season yet" lol And we've seen what happened. That said, I don't think that she's lying. I think they really think, after the backlash, that all we want is EMPOWERED!Fansa walking around being badass.

 

“It was amazing because the past five seasons, it feels like it’s been building up and up to that,” she said. “You can only suffer so much before she finally gets her, the respect that she deserves.”

Yeah, because after several rapes in her ancient home, Sansa really should get her "Reward". I'm preparing myself for the awful storyline that is Sansa being rewarded for her rape by conquering the place she was raped in.

 

Yeah, awesome story telling.