white wolfpack Posted February 18, 2016 Author Share Posted February 18, 2016 On 2/11/2016 at 9:57 PM, ChillyPolly said: Dunno. Maybe the OP was just saying: nothing like Narnia. This discussion made me laugh a little. What do I mean? Nothing like Narnia. At all. No. It also means that I think we can all assume just off the top that I have no interest in anything Orson Scott Card has ever written. He might be a great writer, and he's got his audience. I seriously doubt it's me. That in general YA isn't my thing. Harry Potter was good, and I did read The hunger games, but it was more because I didn't have anything better on deck at the time. That I don't mind a little dark. Or a lot dark, even. I admitted in the OP that even though I may not be entirely into everything in Jacqueline Carey's books, but enjoyed them anyway, that qualifies me for a lot of dark. Not that many people have read them, but they're dark. (And if you've got a problem with Rape in Outlander, do not even read one of JC's book jackets. Just do yourself that favor.) My bigger problem with Outlander if that it's not that sophisticated. But that has nothing to do with church youth groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 My problem with outlander isn't that it has rape, it's the way it's presented. More would require me to not be typing on a phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 13 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: My problem with outlander isn't that it has rape, it's the way it's presented. More would require me to not be typing on a phone. If you have the inclination, I'd be quite interested in your thoughts on Outlander. As a disclaimer, I'm only familiar with the TV show. It has some good points, given it's Braveheartesque version of Scottish history, but I've been pretty startled by how much it's being touted as a feminist answer to that nasty GOT TV show even though there is quite a lot of attempted rape and rescue (and believe eventual rape of the hero, although I have not got that far) I absolutely hated the wife-beating scene and the way the narrative contrived to make it seem necessary and to put the heroine in the wrong - honestly, I've read some some pretty horrific defenses of the hero's actions online, starting with calling it a 'spanking' scene and ending by saying that Claire deserved it. The words 'that's just how it was back then' seem to crop up as well. As I haven't read the book, I thought maybe I was being unfair to the source material but apparently not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Ha, no that's pretty much exactly it. From what I know the show folrlows the books exactly. And yeah I hear it called a feminists GoT a lot too. It's baffling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white wolfpack Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Yes, the Outlander show is really close to the books. I can't think of a single thing so far that has been much different. (Honestly, I was thinking that they might sanitize or at least do some stuff off screen, only because it wouldn't make for very enjoyable viewing, but they really went there and it was NOT very enjoyable viewing.) I think it's fair to say that most people who like the books find some way to look past all the stuff you mention. You've pretty much summarized most of the coping mechanisms. I think I've seen the author defend it somewhere using the "that's how it was at the time" defense, but don't ask me to cite that because I'm just not that big of a fan. For me, there were definitely some times when I thought to myself, "I wish she hadn't made that choice" but it wasn't enough to stop reading it. That happened when I got super tired of the plot around book 4. I definitely don't think there's any defense of the argument that it's somehow more "feminist" than GOT. I'm not sure how you'd even go about making that argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Well I've seen Twilight and 50 Shades touted as feminist, so I just chalk it up to the fact that people are crazy and humanity is doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I did think maybe I was just a grumpy older feminist who didn't understand the younger generation - although that's not really fair as many of them are insightful and interesting on the subject and I'm certainly no expert. Not to mention that DG has been around for quite a while and her work seems like it might have a bit in common with some of those bodice-ripper style romances that were around in my youth. I have my issues with the GOT TV show and agree with a lot of the criticism but I do think the books are pretty good at giving you a feel for what it might be like to be a woman in a rigid patriarchal society - not the more sensational threat of violence and rape (which isn't exactly unknown in the modern world) but the more intangible limitations, frustrations and oppressiveness of even a privileged woman's life. Things that even being sassy and having a hot guy in a kilt to fuck and protect you can't make up for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 edit: deleted I'm gossiping. Bad Richard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 6 hours ago, white wolfpack said: "I think I've seen the author defend it somewhere using the "that's how it was at the time" defense," You know, I wouldn't even mind that defense so much -- after all, that IS how it was, more or less -- except that the female MC (I don't even remember her name -- I've read parts of the book, but never the whole thing) is a MODERN WOMAN who is reacting waaaaaay too much as though she isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 23 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: Well I've seen Twilight and 50 Shades touted as feminist, so I just chalk it up to the fact that people are crazy and humanity is doomed. Some people obviously don't get the difference between "feminist" and "targeted at a predominantly female audience". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 On 2/20/2016 at 4:41 AM, Contrarius+ said: You know, I wouldn't even mind that defense so much -- after all, that IS how it was, more or less -- except that the female MC (I don't even remember her name -- I've read parts of the book, but never the whole thing) is a MODERN WOMAN who is reacting waaaaaay too much as though she isn't. She isn't. When she was born WWI was not over and women did not have suffrage, she grew up with British colonialism and moved to America before the Civil Rights movement. Claire's attitude to gender and consent are very different to that of the characters that she meets in the past, but we should consider her as a bridge that can adapt to the older culture rather than a direct surrogate for the modern reader. I am a grown woman a full generation younger than the author, but she herself was a generation younger than her protaganist. Anytime I venture over to the Literature forums I like to put a rec in for JV Jones' Sword of Shadows series. It's one of my personal favourites, an atmospheric epic fantasy .The POV alternates between a small number of male and female POVs, though the first book is mostly alternates between the male lead and the female secondary protaganist. The culture is patriarchal but there are Bechdel passing conversations, and one of the Book 2 on POVs has a good arc where, having already known her value as a wife and respected woman, she starts to see her value and gain respect in ways usually reserved for men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I would recommend it too, except I don't see it ever getting a conclusion at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 26 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: I would recommend it too, except I don't see it ever getting a conclusion at this point. I started reading the series back in 2000 when my sister-in-law gave me the second book as a birthday present, so I suppose it's the second-longest I've been waiting for a conclusion to a series, only beaten by another Epic Fantasy series with multiple POVs, and morally ambiguous characters in a wintry climate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Yeah, but I'm pretty sure GRRM still exists. JV Jones seems to have vanished from the face of the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar of Skagos Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I consciously omit even the slightest mention of a woman in my own writing because girls have cooties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 7 hours ago, Buried Treasure said: She isn't. When she was born WWI was not over and women did not have suffrage, she grew up with British colonialism and moved to America before the Civil Rights movement. Claire's attitude to gender and consent are very different to that of the characters that she meets in the past, but we should consider her as a bridge that can adapt to the older culture rather than a direct surrogate for the modern reader. I am a grown woman a full generation younger than the author, but she herself was a generation younger than her protaganist. . I see your point although I think it is an interesting choice on the author's part not to go with a 'modern' woman (well from the 90's, at least). Was it to create a bridge for the reader or to make her adaption to the past more believable? Claire is still written as being pretty outspoken and sexually liberated despite her early 20th century background. Based on the show, I feel like the cultural clash between the two periods is mostly dealt with sensationally - threat of rape, domestic discipline, witch hunting and all outweighed by the idea that men were men and passions stronger in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 On 24/2/2016 at 6:08 PM, Wall Flower said: I see your point although I think it is an interesting choice on the author's part not to go with a 'modern' woman (well from the 90's, at least). Was it to create a bridge for the reader or to make her adaption to the past more believable? Claire is still written as being pretty outspoken and sexually liberated despite her early 20th century background. Based on the show, I feel like the cultural clash between the two periods is mostly dealt with sensationally - threat of rape, domestic discipline, witch hunting and all outweighed by the idea that men were men and passions stronger in the past. I think there are practical advantages to having Claire being a WW2 nurse: for one, she has been vaccinated against smallpox (which became extinct before most of us were born), WW2 nursing training is probably less reliant on modern technology and can be more easily adapted to the 17th century... As well as the fact that Claire might be more accepting of misogyny* then a modern woman might be, yet still sufficient close enough to us in time that she is outspoken and liberated. But Jo Walton's Just City Series is easily the best thing that has come out recently, it's what I am hoping will win the hugo this year. Naomi Novik's Uprooted is also great. Six Gun Snow White by Cherynne M Valente *Bodice rippers were popular until recently after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 16 hours ago, voodooqueen126 said: I think there are practical advantages to having Claire being a WW2 nurse: for one, she has been vaccinated against smallpox (which became extinct before most of us were born), Oooooooo, yer showing your age and insulting yer elders, ye young whippersnapper. I've got a smallpox vaccination scar, though I was too young to remember when I got it. And I ain't all THAT old! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 On 4/3/2016 at 11:19 AM, Contrarius+ said: Oooooooo, yer showing your age and insulting yer elders, ye young whippersnapper. I've got a smallpox vaccination scar, though I was too young to remember when I got it. And I ain't all THAT old! my ex partner had one and he was born in 1979 (but in South India) and a friend from Togo has one (a few years older), but the last outbreak in the UK for instance was in 1962. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-18365385 whilst the last outbreak in Europe was in the 1970's in Yugoslavia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Until the mid-1970s smallpox vaccination was obligatory e.g. in Germany (and I guess in most Western countries). The last major outbreaks in countries like Bangla-desh also were in the mid/late 1970s. Extinction was declared in 1980. So most people over 40 will have the scar but very few younger than 35. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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