Wow, I Never Noticed That, v. 14

[Philokles]

On 10/08/2016 at 8:47 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's in the Arya chapter after the Red Wedding, when she's roaming around the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon. 

This one?: "She could outrun horses and outfight lions." ASOS Arya XII.

Given this SSM, I'm not certain whether it literally means Nymeria has outfought real lions.

Quote

 

We have never had a POV near Casterly Rock. Can you tell me more about the lions of Westeros? Are any still around?

A few survive in the outlying hills. For the most part, they have been hunted down. In antiquity, they actually made dens in the rock itself".

 

Maybe it instead refers to Lannister soldiers (who in Arya chapters around that point are often just called lions) or to what would happen in a hypothetical situation where Nymeria fought them?

 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hmm. The other doll references throughout seem to represent childhood, or naivete as one might expect, but Arya and Sansa both take a doll from someone who is irritating them and they rip it up. Arya's example is a little more gruesome than Sansa's (and Arya makes a funny joke of the killing), but both are in the same book.

• A Storm of Swords - Arya XII

It was quiet in the village. They had beds stuffed with straw and not too many lice, the food was plain but filling, and the air smelled of pines. All the same, Arya soon decided that she hated it. The villagers were cowards. None of them would even look at the Hound's face, at least not for long. Some of the women tried to put her in a dress and make her do needlework, but they weren't Lady Smallwood and she was having none of it. And there was one girl who took to following her, the village elder's daughter. She was of an age with Arya, but just a child; she cried if she skinned a knee, and carried a stupid cloth doll with her everywhere she went. The doll was made up to look like a man-at-arms, sort of, so the girl called him Ser Soldier and bragged how he kept her safe. "Go away," Arya told her half a hundred times. "Just leave me be." She wouldn't, though, so finally Arya took the doll away from her, ripped it open, and pulled the rag stuffing out of its belly with a finger. "Now he really looks like a soldier!" she said, before she threw the doll in a brook. After that the girl stopped pestering her, and Arya spent her days grooming Craven and Stranger or walking in the woods. Sometimes she would find a stick and practice her needlework, but then she would remember what had happened at the Twins and smash it against a tree until it broke.

I never took the "Now he really looks like a soldier!" line as a joke. Just disillusionment (though that word does not come close to doing her feeling justice) at the reality of war in the aftermath of the Red Wedding - which throwing the doll in the brook reenacted. It is brought out here by the other girl's naive attitude to the institution of knighthood.

 

I think there are a lot of similarities between the two situations. Both Arya and Sansa are trying to come to terms with the loss of family and home, but their thoughts are interrupted by a child who does not understand their predicament (or even their true identity?) and acts obliviously in an inconsiderate manner. With both characters it shows a clear division between them and the children, but maybe also between them and adults who would be less rough in their reaction. It also highlights the loneliness of them both, that they are having to solve these issues alone with no adult who they could trust for emotional support to help them. The one person who could empathise best with Arya's plight is Sansa and vice versa. You could perhaps also say that Sansa is also reenacting Ned's execution by tearing the head off, though certainly inadvertently, whilst the intention is left unclear for Arya. The main point I'd say is to show that the two girls are going through the same process and by the time they meet again will be much closer than as children.

[Lost Melnibonean]

^I like my interpretation of Nymeria out fighting real lions better.

[BricksAndSparrows]

I think in the Hedge Knight, during the trial of seven, Prince Daeron has a long green plume coming off of the top of his helmet. Which is probably a nod to his green dreams.

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

I think there are a lot of similarities between the two situations. Both Arya and Sansa are trying to come to terms with the loss of family and home, but their thoughts are interrupted by a child who does not understand their predicament (or even their true identity?) and acts obliviously in an inconsiderate manner. With both characters it shows a clear division between them and the children, but maybe also between them and adults who would be less rough in their reaction. It also highlights the loneliness of them both, that they are having to solve these issues alone with no adult who they could trust for emotional support to help them. The one person who could empathise best with Arya's plight is Sansa and vice versa. You could perhaps also say that Sansa is also reenacting Ned's execution by tearing the head off, though certainly inadvertently, whilst the intention is left unclear for Arya. The main point I'd say is to show that the two girls are going through the same process and by the time they meet again will be much closer than as children.

I know, I know, I was making a joke about the joke. There is also a big difference in how they react after. Arya makes a highly sarcastic jape, while Sansa apologizes.

If Sansa's doll is foreshadowing for what she will do later, then so can Arya's be for later. Sansa is ??? still. Arya could be serving northern/ old god justice to Walder? I tend to think Arya will be back in the Riverlands because of Nymeria, the Red Wedding and the fact that she is a water dancer. Each Stark child is a dancer (fighter) of some elemental sort.

Sansa wind dancer. Bran a wood dancer. Rickon is a... Skagosi rock dancer??? He is certainly as active as a rock. (joking)

[Bob Sacamano]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Just a feeling...

It's certainly not conclusive. I resisted the idea for years. No reason you should accept it. 

In any event, I doubt we'll ever know for sure, and I don't think it will mater for the plot. 

Especially with Lysa dead, 

[Lost Melnibonean]

46 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Especially with Lysa dead, 

The George could drop a few more hints for fun, but I don't think wee Robert is long for this world anyway, what with Alayne's larger concerns and all. 

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Just a feeling...

It's certainly not conclusive. I resisted the idea for years. No reason you should accept it. 

In any event, I doubt we'll ever know for sure, and I don't think it will mater for the plot. 

I always figured that was the baby that Hoster had aborted. I know she has referenced that baby several times.

[Lost Melnibonean]

And there is this too...

Quote

Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children.

 

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And there is this too...

 

True enough but he gave her plenty of miscarriages... makes you wonder if that tansy tea messed her up.

If Robin is Baelish son I don't think he knows and I can't see how it would be revealed since Lysa is dead. It would have come out with all her other declarations before Baelish pushed her out the Moon Door. Also if Baelish knew I don't think he would be poisoning his own son. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Anybody think we will ever see Zei again? 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

17 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

True enough but he gave her plenty of miscarriages... makes you wonder if that tansy tea messed her up

I never thought of that possibility .....Wow, I never noticed that!  Something to definitely wonder about.  

With the Jon Arryn's history though..... (from the wiki) "Jon was married three times. His first marriage was to Jeyne Royce, but she died in childbed, their daughter stillborn. His second marriage was to Rowena Arryn, a cousin, who died of a winter chill during a childless marriage."

Almost definitely has nothing to do with the plot, either way, but it's just another reason why I love re-reading ASOIAF. Thanks!

 

 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

I just noticed this.....not sure if it has been brought up before?

"His tongue is a foot long, Brienne thought, just before the darkness took her. Why, it looks almost like a sword. --A Feast for Crows" - Brienne VII

The very NEXT Brienne POV chapter.....

"Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.She screamed a word"--A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

GRRM confirmed that the word Brienne screamed was “sword”.--SSM June 03, 2012  As most all of us know.....

I just never noticed that the previous chapter ended with the word that we would all try to puzzle out.  Pure genius.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

I just noticed this.....not sure if it has been brought up before?

"His tongue is a foot long, Brienne thought, just before the darkness took her. Why, it looks almost like a sword. --A Feast for Crows" - Brienne VII

The very NEXT Brienne POV chapter.....

"Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.She screamed a word"--A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

GRRM confirmed that the word Brienne screamed was “sword”.--SSM June 03, 2012  As most all of us know.....

I just never noticed that the previous chapter ended with the word that we would all try to puzzle out.  Pure genius.

 

 Nice. 

[Bob Sacamano]

Asha never had the chance to take moon tea after she and Qarl had happy time...

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Asha never had the chance to take moon tea after she and Qarl had happy time...

Yup that is going to be an interesting situation for her and Stannis.

[The Fattest Leech]

Curious the name that is left out of this dream only to have another descriptive in it's place.

• A Clash of Kings - Catelyn II

  As she slept amidst the rolling grasslands, Catelyn dreamt that Bran was whole again, that Arya and Sansa held hands, that Rickon was still a babe at her breast. Robb, crownless, played with a wooden sword, and when all were safe asleep, she found Ned in her bed, smiling.
  Sweet it was, sweet and gone too soon. Dawn came cruel, a dagger of light. She woke aching and alone and weary; weary of riding, weary of hurting, weary of duty. I want to weep, she thought. I want to be comforted. I'm so tired of being strong. I want to be foolish and frightened for once. Just for a small while, that's all . . . a day . . . an hour . . .

[The Fattest Leech]

This is just another example of curious wording transitions. I think someone else in this thread found a really good one a few pages back.

The "good" queen Alysanne was actually not so good to the north, Starks or magic. Could this be a clue that things will go back to "normal" before she interrupted things?

• A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

  "Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder." ...When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe." He looked at Jon. "Would you agree?"
  "My father dreamed of resettling the Gift," Jon admitted. "He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it." He never thought of settling it with wildlings, though . . . but he never rode with wildlings, either. He did not fool himself; the free folk would make for unruly subjects and dangerous neighbors. Yet when he weighed Ygritte's red hair against the cold blue eyes of the wights, the choice was easy. "I agree."

"Good," King Stannis said, "for the surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this wildling princess."

[Little Scribe of Naath]

23 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Asha never had the chance to take moon tea after she and Qarl had happy time...

OMG, I actually never noticed that. 

The things GRRM manages to slip past readers...

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Egg's son Daeron married Ser Jeremy Norridge.  

Yandel says Daeron never married, but this is what Barristan says in ADWD, The Kingbreaker. 

Quote

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.  Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her.  Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled.  The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses.  All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love in defiance of their father's wishes.   

I believe Barristan over Yandel in this instance.  Barristan personally knew Egg and his sons, and a king has no secrets from his kingsguard.  Even though Daeron died before Jaehaerys ascended to the throne and Barristan became a kingsguard, Daeron's marriage was probably something that still needed to be kept secret.    

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

6 hours ago, Harlaw's Book the Sequel said:

Egg's son Daeron married Ser Jeremy Norridge.  

Yandel says Daeron never married, but this is what Barristan says in ADWD, The Kingbreaker. 

I believe Barristan over Yandel in this instance.  Barristan personally knew Egg and his sons, and a king has no secrets from his kingsguard.  Even though Daeron died before Jaehaerys ascended to the throne and Barristan became a kingsguard, Daeron's marriage was probably something that still needed to be kept secret.    

Why would Barristan know something that needed to be kept a secret and would have occurred before he ever became a Kingsguard, with the two people it concerned having died before Barristan ever became a Kingsguard (and perhaps, before Barristan lived at court)?

It's not entirely impossible, but I'd sooner think that Barristan is generalizing here, and that Daeron and Jeremy were in a relationship that they considered a marriage, despite the fact that they weren't married. Would there have been a septon willing to perform such a ceremony?