Your Random ASOIAF/TWOIAF/D&E Opinions, Confessions and Dirty Secrets, IX

[RoamingRonin]

On 5/4/2016 at 2:30 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am hoping the foreshadowing is of Tyrion controlling or influencing Viserion's eventual dragon riders, Brown Ben and... wait for it... Timett son of Timett and descendant of Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers. No... seriously. 

If I had to choose, I'd choose Timett son of Timett over Tyrion.

On 5/4/2016 at 2:08 PM, Joy Hill said:

Maybe it's because I'm not from the English-speaking world, but nuncle does not bother me, and I don't understand why people dislike that word so much.

I don't think it's the word itself. I think it's because characters start saying it in Book Four as if they've been saying it since Book One. It's a bit jarring.

[sarah.jenice]

On 4/9/2016 at 7:09 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't know if it belongs here but anyway. Recently I read a book about Caterina Sforza a 15th century Italian countess, who after her husband’s death she had to face his murderers.  At one point her enemies had threatened her that they will kill her children and she said something like “Kill them if you want I have what it takes to make more.”. That reminds me of what Agnes Blackwood told to Harwyn Hoare about her having other sons.

I really enjoyed how that scene played out on Showtime's The Borgias. "You can take my son. But do you see? Here! I have the means to produce TEN MORE SONS! And they will hunt you down and send you to your grave!" I miss that show.

[Ser Razak]

I'm hoping Jaime and Cersei turn out to be Targ bastards. I see them as two sides of a coin and it would make a lot of sense from a story telling point of view if Tyrion was Tywin's only son and that Tyrion and Jaime both killed their fathers.

[norwaywolf123]

41 minutes ago, Ser Razak said:

I'm hoping Jaime and Cersei turn out to be Targ bastards.

Why?

41 minutes ago, Ser Razak said:

I see them as two sides of a coin and it would make a lot of sense from a story telling point of view if Tyrion was Tywin's only son and that Tyrion and Jaime both killed their fathers.

How does that make sense?

[The Arthur Smith]

3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Why?

So we can torture more on poor Tywin.

[montriveau]

Hi there, I am new on this board and have very much enjoyed reading you so far. In adavce, my apologies the broken english.

I don't know if it belongs here but here are a few thoughts on ASOIAF, on which I would be keen to receive some feedback. Not an avid reader of fantasy or scifi, I found it a bit disconcerting to see that most readers seem to expect  characters and story arc to be useful plotwise. I have a quite different feeling on the whole ASOIAF.

First of all, I assume that GRRM – a talented and seasoned writer, who he is well aware that he is not writing a thriller here – has not been trying to hide the outcome of his song of ice and fire.

Secondly, I assume that GRRM likes to show how history is written, and that it is even the main point of the whole novel. All over the books we are shown how certain events we were second hand witnesses are wrongly recollected. And what is history if not trying to make sense out of the stories told by numerous unreliable narrators?

For the above reasons I think ASOIAF is a classic high fantasy tale where the bastard teenager nobody expected anything from was actually the son of a mythical couple and the hero of the prophecy who ended up saving the kingdom.

The genius of GRRM is to show us that this kind of story only makes sense when you look in the rearview mirror as prophecies are blur and numerous enough to accommodate any individual destiny. Numerous characters have been considered as AA or TPWWP and a combination of military prowess, sheer luck and charisma will at the end of the day be construed as the proof that the prophecy was right.

Should Jon eventually be the savior of the 7K, he will be considered as AA / TPTWP (depending on the beliefs of the in Universe person you ask to) mostly because he will be the only survivor with enough background.

The main originality of GRRM is that he feigns to be telling the history while it is being written – hence he cannot focus exclusively on the bastard that should be king (as the unreliable narrators have no clue of what will happen) and tries to give us a fair idea of what is happening all around the 7K during the events which will later be remembered as ASOIAF.

That is the reason why we have to deal with the entire Lannister clan – who are at some point a force to be reckoned with in the seven Kingdom – as well as the Martell, the Greyjoy…

I think the main hint on the fact that ASOIAF is the song of Jon Snow lies in the importance of R+L. Of course GRRM can write hundreds of pages about people who will eventually be useless plotwise but he cannot do the same thing for all their ancestors and had to focus on the ancestors of his hero.  

Prince Rhaegar is introduced to us in a bad light but later revealed to have been a great individual who could have been a great king – a way better king than Robert Baratheon, introduced to us by his long time friend Ned Stark. He is the only male ancestor of the current cast to really stand out ; a geek turned freak which will have immediate appeal to fantasy readers.

As to Lyanna, she is, to my recollection – having read the books once and watching the series sporadically – the only female ancestor of the current cast who has an elaborated biography. Her whole character is much more developed than any other female ancestor of the current cast, for instance, let’s say Rhaella (do we learn anything about her except that she is miscarrying her babies – who were also her nephews) or Joanna Lannister (if we assume A+J=T).

This was supposed not be too obvious as they are not officially the parents of Jon Snow (and this mere fact is of interest as the identity of his parents are an enigma since the first book).

The interest of the book to me is to witness the destiny of characters like Petyr, Tyrion, Varys, Arya (the list goes on and on….) and to discover how those formidable characters rise in the turmoil of events bigger than them ; something quite unusual in classic high fantasy where characters always have to be useful plotwise. You can certainly find other books with such great characters but in how many of them do those characters have full background, interact with each other…

I would find it even better if R+L=J was never officially revealed in universe and if the whole “prophecy fulfillment” had to remain external to the books.

TLDR : AOIAF is the classic high fantasy tale of a prophecy fulfilled by a baseborn teenager who eventually saves the world. Instead of focusing on this boring story we have all read ten times, GRRM tells us all the great stories which happened during the fulfillment of the prophecy. At the end of the day Jon will save the world and everybody’s concern will be to know what Tyrion has to tell about it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Aeron's screaming rusted iron hinges really bother me. 

[DarkSister1001]

32 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aeron's screaming rusted iron hinges really bother me. 

Because of the mind raping (shameless plug inserted here). 

[The Arthur Smith]

34 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aeron's screaming rusted iron hinges really bother me. 

In what way?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's supposed to bother us because it kinda implies that Euron molested Aeron.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

It's supposed to bother us because it kinda implies that Euron molested Aeron.

The son of a bitch. I hope that figment of The George's imagination does screaming. 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

It's supposed to bother us because it kinda implies that Euron molested Aeron.

Not just Aeron, but Urrigon too. Euron is definitely in the running for Worst Brother of ASOIAF. 

 

Speaking of Euron, I've come to the conclusion Euron is dead, he has been dead the whole time, and the Euron we have seen is an imposter. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

50 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Not just Aeron, but Urrigon too. Euron is definitely in the running for Worst Brother of ASOIAF. 

 

Speaking of Euron, I've come to the conclusion Euron is dead, he has been dead the whole time, and the Euron we have seen is an imposter. 

No. That would rob Aeron of the vengnece he deserves since what is dead may never die, and Euron needs to die, preferably in a horrific fashion. 

[norwaywolf123]

1 hour ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Not just Aeron, but Urrigon too. Euron is definitely in the running for Worst Brother of ASOIAF. 

 

Speaking of Euron, I've come to the conclusion Euron is dead, he has been dead the whole time, and the Euron we have seen is an imposter. 

Who is posting as Euron? Gerion"Travel to Valyria"Lannister? How would anyone disguise themselves as Euron save a faceless man

[Eden-Mackenzie]

59 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No. That would rob Aeron of the vengnece he deserves since what is dead may never die, and Euron needs to die, preferably in a horrific fashion. 

But if what is dead may never die, what will Aeron be able to accomplish? It never goes well for the vengeance seekers, Euron will just rise again harder and stronger each time. I think Aeron's purpose is to show men have very little to do with the best laid plans of mice and men. I do agree Euron earned himself a horrific death, I just think it has already happened. 

9 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Who is posting as Euron? Gerion"Travel to Valyria"Lannister? How would anyone disguise themselves as Euron save a faceless man

There you go.

[Lost Melnibonean]

39 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

But if what is dead may never die, what will Aeron be able to accomplish? It never goes well for the vengeance seekers, Euron will just rise again harder and stronger each time. I think Aeron's purpose is to show men have very little to do with the best laid plans of mice and men. I do agree Euron earned himself a horrific death, I just think it has already happened. 

There you go.

Aeron's purpose is to foment an uprising that will lead to a new queensmoot. 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aeron's purpose is to foment an uprising that will lead to a new queensmoot. 

Rodrik the Reader's purpose is tell us (and presumably the Iron Born) the story of the only Kingsmoot to be overturned, which correlates to Theon, not Asha. Aeron doesn't want Asha any more than he wants Euron, if Asha wins he will just foment rebellion after rebellion until he gets his way or dies in the attempt. Aeron is futility.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Rodrik the Reader's purpose is tell us (and presumably the Iron Born) the story of the only Kingsmoot to be overturned, which correlates to Theon, not Asha. Aeron doesn't want Asha any more than he wants Euron, if Asha wins he will just foment rebellion after rebellion until he gets his way or dies in the attempt. Aeron is futility.

The kingsmoot will be overturned because they did not consider Theon's candidacy, but that doesn't mean they have to vote for him. After Victarion experiences the rapture of the glory that awaits him, and if Aeron meets Theon, I think he'll be more willing to consider a woman, especially a bad ass like Asha Greyjoy. 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The kingsmoot will be overturned because they did not consider Theon's candidacy, but that doesn't mean they have to vote for him. After Victarion experiences the rapture of the glory that awaits him, and if Aeron meets Theon, I think he'll be more willing to consider a woman, especially a bad ass like Asha Greyjoy. 

True enough, although if Theon does not live long to return to the Iron Islands (or if never returns period), can they still overturn Euron's kingsmoot? I'm still not convinced Aeron has the capacity to change his mind regarding Asha, unless he has another dungeons of Casterly Rock style life-changing experience. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 minute ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

True enough, although if Theon does not live long to return to the Iron Islands (or if never returns period), can they still overturn Euron's kingsmoot? I'm still not convinced Aeron has the capacity to change his mind regarding Asha, unless he has another dungeons of Casterly Rock style life-changing experience. 

Any lawyer worth his salt would say yes.