[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

While I can see them stretching stuff out for as long as possible, the problem is that it's really not suspenseful after a point. In a show where they kill of so many of their characters quickly, and some even off screen (looking at you Stannis!), why would they keep Jon Snow's body lying around if he wasn't coming back? It wouldn't make any sense. He'd have been burned or buried or eaten by crows in the last episode if he was gone for good. 

[Le Cygne]

So they figure he's coming back, but so do readers (and it's been nearly 5 years for us, of course, we have GRRM telling the much better tale).

[Sir Loin Steak]

I always figured Jon would come back as some sort of undead in the books, rather than being brought back to life. I also think he'll come back with a fairly drastic personality change (though not total thanks to Ghost storage). GRRM laid groundwork for this with Cold Hands, Stoneheart and Beric; so of course the show cut the first two and nobody seems to even remember Beric, both the general audience and Mel, who they went out of their way to have meet him, you'd think she would be reflecting on that right about now!

If they went the undead route, they could argue they were technically telling the truth, but they don't respect the audience at all, so he'll probably heal up like Wolverine and start-running around generic action hero style. There's a possibility in the books that Ghost will have to die, so the resurrection won't feel cheap (could also symbolise shedding his Stark-side and being reborn as a Targ/Azor Ahai mk.2) - given how little the show likes to include the direwolves, I fully expect them to pull the "only death can pay for life" card and use this as an opportunity to rid themselves of another one.

[Le Cygne]

14 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

They're gonna stretch the BIG REVELATION until book 6, it seems. I suppose ToJ will be more of a "clue" so we can say they "foreshadow" things...

We can call him Jedd!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"Jon being dead" is going to be the new meme replacing "Dany wont' sail to Westeros"

 

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

So they figure he's coming back, but so do readers (and it's been nearly 5 years for us, of course, we have GRRM telling the much better tale).

For us is obvious he will return, but not for the watchers who expect anyone to die at any moment. I suppose they will give hints for him to be alive, though. And even if they don't, they still expect Stannis to be alive, and even Doran, sooooo

[Arrow of the Morning]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The terrible truth is that elements of their story have started to bore me, which is a reflection of how bored or superficially invested they are with certain plotlines.  At first I thought about the 'plot holes,' then I received elaborate explanations from some adoring fans who just don't want to admit that something is 'off' about the Emperors' new clothes... It's fantasy, so of course there's always going to be an explanation for everything, and one can construct multiple rockhard scenarios of events behind the scenes to account for the flimsy outlines of what we were actually given.  So, sure, the 'logic' finally reveals itself, but the storytelling to get us there is still shoddy.

I saw people making apologies saying "this is fantasy" and didn't bother to get some logical explanation for the plotholes. One thing is ask "How dragons can breath fire?" or "How Bran can enter in Summer's mind?" and other is question the political movies, character motivations, personal relationships are not supernatural or magical and if it just don't make sense is due sloppy writing.  

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

Actually, my brother's read the books but isn't super into them (so obviously doesn't discuss them online and hypothesise with other people about plot lines... loser, lol, anyway...), and he thinks I'm just being hopeful when I tell him Jon isn't dead. He also doesn't really believe R+L=J, though he admits it's a plausible theory. I suspect that the reason so many book readers know/expect Jon to come back is because we've had so long to think about it, and we care enough to try and hypothesise. 

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

3 minutes ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

I saw people making apologies saying "this is fantasy" and didn't bother to get some logical explanation for the plotholes. One thing is ask "How dragons can breath fire?" or "How Bran can enter in Summer's mind?" and other is question the political movies, character motivations, personal relationships are not supernatural or magical and if it just don't make sense is due sloppy writing.  

Lol, reminds me of a problem I always have with one of my professors. She's very brilliant, but  when someone pointed out a plot hole in a fantasy novel we were studying she suggested the power of fantasy is that it doesn't have to be logical. I couldn't disagree more. Obviously that's true for something like Alice in Wonderland, but in my opinion fantasy in general has to be even more realistic than other genres. It already has dragons and magic (or whatever), so it's foreign to us as it is, which means that for it's even more important that everything else make sense for its readers. It has to be coherent in its rules. The rules don't have to be our rules, but they have to exist, and they have to be internally logical. When people start acting without any understandable motivation and throw personal relationships out the window, or simply fail to act in a way that makes sense, it's ruined. 

[OldGimletEye]

30 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

We can call him Jedd!

Well now its time to say good bye to Jedd and all his friends
And they would like to thank you folks fer kindly droppin in
You're all invited back next week to watch GOT
To have a heapin helpin of bad pussy
 

[Ruhail]

Who wants to bet that Show Jon (Cliche action hero) will be exactly the same boiled prune hes always been when he return and steals other people's stories? 

[Arrow of the Morning]

26 minutes ago, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

Lol, reminds me of a problem I always have with one of my professors. She's very brilliant, but  when someone pointed out a plot hole in a fantasy novel we were studying she suggested the power of fantasy is that it doesn't have to be logical. I couldn't disagree more. Obviously that's true for something like Alice in Wonderland, but in my opinion fantasy in general has to be even more realistic than other genres. It already has dragons and magic (or whatever), so it's foreign to us as it is, which means that for it's even more important that everything else make sense for its readers. It has to be coherent in its rules. The rules don't have to be our rules, but they have to exist, and they have to be internally logical. When people start acting without any understandable motivation and throw personal relationships out the window, or simply fail to act in a way that makes sense, it's ruined. 

Every piece of fiction have to have its rules and make them clear, so when this rules are broke it gets a more powerful effect. In George's world we have some clear rules, even some magical phenomena like green sight and skinchanging have some rules in some degree; ultimately, if you dig more, the final answer will be "it is magic" (George will not create his midichlorians), but the thing obey some pattern. But, when it comes to people behavior and relationship you just can't make them act in a illogical way and say it is supernatural.

In other hand, some people (some the same that makes the apologia above) make apologies for the violence in the show saying they need to be realistic or "it was that way in those times", while they know nothing or little about Middle Ages.

[Sir Loin Steak]

27 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

For us is obvious he will return, but not for the watchers who expect anyone to die at any moment. I suppose they will give hints for him to be alive, though. And even if they do, they still expect Stannis to be alive, and even Doran, sooooo

There are definitely showbros who are finding it sketchy (and as you say quite a few think Stannis is still alive because of the cut away), the longer they stretch things out the more weird it'll seem that a corpse is getting all this attention (though the scenes in this episode should be weird enough on their own). But D&D suck at pacing so I agree that they'll drag this out.

One funny thing is that for all the people who seem to think that the main appeal of the show is that "anyone can die!", it'll really undermine all future deaths as they start to wonder if they'll be brought back too.

24 minutes ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

I saw people making apologies saying "this is fantasy" and didn't bother to get some logical explanation for the plotholes. One thing is ask "How dragons can breath fire?" or "How Bran can enter in Summer's mind?" and other is question the political movies, character motivations, personal relationships are not supernatural or magical and if it just don't make sense is due sloppy writing.  

 I've heard that asinine argument so many times over the years about all sorts of fiction (even stuff without overtly fantastical elements). It only works if you reduce the appeal down to purely the superficial cool factor of the fantastical elements themselves and literally nothing else (like say Michael Bay's terrible Transformers movies), it reduces fiction to the equivalent of watching fireworks. The less that the parts that people can relate to their own experience make sense, the harder it is to engage with the fiction at all (other than going totally analytical and nit-picking or making fun of it). Things like superpowers, faster than light travel, dragons and so on are a conceit the audience accepts because they can provide different fictional possibilities, explore ideas and themes in different and interesting ways, or are simply entertaining or enjoyable - we suspend disbelief for them. Things like characters that act in ways that no human ever would (even though they are meant to be normal people), or aspects of our everyday world being depicted in completely unrealistic ways (when they're meant to reflect our reality, obviously there are exceptions for things like certain types of comedies) tend to break that suspension of disbelief hard because those are things we understand intuitively. If characters feel fake and/or unrelatable, or if the setting just doesn't make sense, then people aren't going to care about the story, no matter how many larger than life elements are sprinkled in for flavour. Where an individual's tolerance for this is varies a lot, but I'm pretty sure everyone experiences it at some point even people who make this silly argument (even if it's only expressed as "This is stupid").

Sorry to go on, obviously you know all this already, but that argument has always been a pet-peeve of mine, hence the rant.

[Le Cygne]

46 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well now its time to say good bye to Jedd and all his friends
And they would like to thank you folks fer kindly droppin in
You're all invited back next week to watch GOT
To have a heapin helpin of bad pussy

Perfect!  

 

[Le Cygne]

33 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Who wants to bet that Show Jon (Cliche action hero) will be exactly the same boiled prune hes always been when he return and steals other people's stories? 

I always found Jon really boring on the show. I would have much preferred seeing Stannis in his own story.

The only up side, between all the deaths and already dead stories, there will be no stories to steal.

And as a bonus, Jedd steals his story this season! Jedd and Granny Mel!

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

37 minutes ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

Every piece of fiction have to have its rules and make them clear, so when this rules are broke it gets a more powerful effect. In George's world we have some clear rules, even some magical phenomena like green sight and skinchanging have some rules in some degree; ultimately, if you dig more, the final answer will be "it is magic" (George will not create his midichlorians), but the thing obey some pattern. But, when it comes to people behavior and relationship you just can't make them act in a illogical way and say it is supernatural.

In other hand, some people (some the same that makes the apologia above) make apologies for the violence in the show saying they need to be realistic or "it was that way in those times", while they know nothing or little about Middle Ages.

Yeah, obviously magic will be magical/fantastic, but characterisation is characterisation, and a logical plot is a logical plot. It's unfortunate that people are having to making excuses for the show. Once you have to make excuses, you know something's gone wrong. 

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

30 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

" I've heard that asinine argument so many times over the years about all sorts of fiction (even stuff without overtly fantastical elements). It only works if you reduce the appeal down to purely the superficial cool factor of the fantastical elements themselves and literally nothing else (like say Michael Bay's terrible Transformers movies), it reduces fiction to the equivalent of watching fireworks. The less that the parts that people can relate to their own experience make sense, the harder it is to engage with the fiction at all (other than going totally analytical and nit-picking or making fun of it). Things like superpowers, faster than light travel, dragons and so on are a conceit the audience accepts because they can provide different fictional possibilities, explore ideas and themes in different and interesting ways, or are simply entertaining or enjoyable - we suspend disbelief for them. Things like characters that act in ways that no human ever would (even though they are meant to be normal people), or aspects of our everyday world being depicted in completely unrealistic ways (when they're meant to reflect our reality, obviously there are exceptions for things like certain types of comedies) tend to break that suspension of disbelief hard because those are things we understand intuitively. If characters feel fake and/or unrelatable, or if the setting just doesn't make sense, then people aren't going to care about the story, no matter how many larger than life elements are sprinkled in for flavour. Where an individual's tolerance for this is varies a lot, but I'm pretty sure everyone experiences it at some point even people who make this silly argument (even if it's only expressed as "This is stupid").

 

Just read this. Well said. You expressed what I was trying to say significantly better. 

[Wall Flower]

20 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I always found Jon really boring on the show. I would have much preferred seeing Stannis in his own story.

The only up side, between all the deaths and already dead stories, there will be no stories to steal.

And as a bonus, Jedd steals his story this season! Jedd and Granny Mel!

To be fair, showJon has had a lot of his story stolen by the writers and by Sam Tarly - Sam's even stolen Jon's direwolf most of the time.

[Le Cygne]

"I always found Jon really boring on the show."

[LazyBazooka]

Just rewatched the clip where Jorah and Tyrion are captured by slavers...ugh "it'll be a dwarf sized cock" - "guess again!". The writers saying that Tyrion has a big dick is just about as subtle as this:

 

[DireDoodle]

8 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

Just rewatched the clip where Jorah and Tyrion are captured by slavers...ugh "it'll be a dwarf sized cock" - "guess again!". The writers saying that Tyrion has a big dick is just about as subtle as this:

 

 But Diinklage delivered it quite well wouldn't you say?