The Rape of King's Landing: Tywin Lannister and the Gendered Grudge

[TheSeason]

So, I recently passed over a quote from Clash that got me to thinking... very strange thoughts, and I wanted to inquire within the community to see what others think. [TL;DR at bottom.] Without further ado:

 

The Rape of King's Landing: Tywin Lannister and the Gendered Grudge

 

What was the certain name that Elia Martell Targaryen cried out when her rapers and murderers came for her? Could it have been, "Lord Tywin!" perhaps?

Strange as it seems on the surface, I think so. Here's the quote that got me thinking something extraordinary had happened in the Red Keep...

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"You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear calling the raven black? Or would you sooner not hear what I've proposed to Doran Martell?"

Varys giggled. "Perhaps my little birds have told me."

"Have they, indeed?" He wanted to hear this. "Go on."

"The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him."

"All this is obvious," said Tyrion.

"The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe."

"My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition… and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black."

"A council seat is not to be despised," Varys admitted, "yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister's murder?"

"Why forget?" Tyrion smiled. "I've promised to deliver his sister's killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure."

Varys gave a shrewd look. "My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a… certain name… when they came for her."

"Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?" In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son's blood and brains still on his hands.

"This secret is your lord father's sworn man."

"My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog."

Varys stroked a powdered cheek. "And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed…"

"Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end."

"Robert was not at King's Landing."

"Neither was Doran Martell."

"So. Blood for his pride, a chair for his ambition. Gold and land, that goes without saying. A sweet offer… yet sweets can be poisoned. If I were the prince, something more would I require before I should reach for the honeycomb. Some token of good faith, some sure safeguard against betrayal." Varys smiled his slimiest smile. "Which one will you give him, I wonder?"

Tyrion sighed. "You know, don't you?"

"Since you put it that way—yes. Tommen. You could scarcely offer Myrcella to Doran Martell and Lysa Arryn both."

"Remind me never to play these guessing games with you again. You cheat."

…

"…Prince Doran will hardly be insensible of the great honor you do him. Very deftly done, I would say… but for one small flaw."

The dwarf laughed. "Named Cersei?"

"What avails statecraft against the love of a mother for the sweet fruit of her womb? Perhaps, for the glory of her House and the safety of the realm, the queen might be persuaded to send away Tommen or Myrcella. But both of them? Surely not."

Here we have Varys intimating to Tyrion that Elia knew at least one of her attackers very well. Now, at first I simply presumed that the name she cried out was Gregor Clegane's, but when I started to think about it in more depth I reached what felt like a hitch.

From the Wiki, regarding Gregor Clegane:

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Ser Gregor Clegane is the Knight of Clegane's Keep and is the head of House Clegane, which are landed knights and bannermen to House Lannister of Casterly Rock.

He is very solitary, never leaving his own lands except for wars or tournaments.

 

As a young boy, eleven or twelve years old, he caused his brother Sandor's facial scars by holding the younger boy's face to a hot brazier as punishment for playing with a toy he had discarded. Their father spread the story that the injuries were caused by bedding that had caught fire.

 

Four years later, Gregor was knighted by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. There were rumors that Gregor killed his father, sister, and his first two wives. His keep is said to be a grim place where servants vanish unaccountably and even the dogs are afraid to enter the halls.

 

At the age of seventeen, Gregor was one of the first Lannister soldiers to enter  King's Landing during its sack at the end of the war. He and Ser Amory Lorch scaled Maegor's Holdfast when the Lannister troops reached the Red Keep. Gregor entered the nursery of the infant Prince Aegon, son of Prince Rhaegar, and killed the baby present by dashing the boy's head against a wall. Then he raped and murdered Aegon's mother, Princess Elia, supposedly with the boy's blood and brains still on his hands.

 

"Elia of Dorne. I killed her screaming whelp. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this." – Gregor Clegane to Prince Oberyn Martell

I don't know when the rumors about Clegane's murder of his father, sister, and first two wives started spreading, nor how far and wide they spread before his anointing as a knight, but it stands out to me that Prince Rhaegar Targaryen felt comfortable enough to knight him. More importantly, this seems like a political favor to Tywin Lannister to me; I don't think there was much connection between Rhaegar--the crowned prince--and Gregor--a relative nobody--which seems strange otherwise, because a knight's reputation hinges in part upon the knight who knighted him. What had Gregor Clegane ever done to be awarded the high honor of a royal dubbing? He was born, that's what. Tywin Lannister wanted someone vile on his leash. It appears Tywin was well aware of these rumors and wanted to take advantage of Gregor's inhumanity, so it would behoove him to keep Rhaegar from hearing them, if at all possible.

So, if Rhaegar felt comfortable enough to dub Clegane himself, it seems likely Prince Rhaegar (buddy-buddy with guys like Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, and a seeming-honorable guy in himself*) knew little to nothing of Gregor's monstrous behavior. Therefore, Gregor Clegane was not famous or otherwise terrifying (barring his size, of course) at this time.

*I freely admit this is a quality hotly contended by some readers. However, no character as yet has besmirched the honor of his closest confidants and two of his staunchest supporters, Dayne and Whent. For the sake of the argument, let's at least place Rhaegar in a position of moral neutrality, meaning if not a moral exemplar, he is also not utterly amoral, but is rather "an average man," morally speaking, who is moreover in a position of greater responsibility to the realm, even as regards who he knights; that the only other knights we know him to have dubbed both served squire to him for significant time (meaning, he could ascertain their character to his standard first)--Mooton, Lonmouth--indicates he took this responsibility seriously.

A year later, there's the Sack of King's Landing. Now, either Gregor Clegane became famous in that time (possible, but unlikely, since it appears Gregor's fame stems from Elia and her children's treatment during the Sack!) or Elia knew and/or remembered Clegane on sight...

While it's possible Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne and Princess Consort of Dragonstone, was familiar with Gregor Clegane (seventeen-year-old nobody knight sub-House Lannister), I think it likelier it was some other name she cried out when they entered the nursery.

But who's name, then?

There were some important personages involved in the Sack, so let's see if we can narrow this down by significant character:

1. Jaime Lannister -- killed Mad King Aerys, his pyromancers, and sat on the Iron Throne

2. Grand Maester Pycelle -- convinced Aerys to open the gates to Tywin Lannister, movements unknown during Sack

3. Lord Varys -- advised against opening the gates to Tywin Lannister but was ignored; claims to have assisted Elia in the escape of Prince Aegon (but not Elia herself or Princess Rhaenys?), with movements otherwise unknown during Sack

4. Ned Stark -- arrived late to a sacked city, found Jaime Lannister sitting on Iron Throne (still ahorse upon his entrance to the Red Keep)

5. Gregor Clegane -- scaled Maegor's Holdfast; raped and murdered Elia Martell, murdered Aegon Targaryen VI

6. Amory Lorch -- scaled Maegor's Holdfast; murdered Rhaenys Targaryen

7. Tywin Lannister -- movements unknown during Sack

Three people stand out as having the means and opportunity (Lord Varys, Grand Maester Pycelle, and Tywin Lannister) to seek out Elia Martell in the nursery during the Sack, but only one person stands out as having the motive to participate in that savagery (Tywin Lannister). During the epilogue of Dance, Ser Kevan Lannister reflects:

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If Aerys had agreed to marry [Cersei] to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes… with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were.

Now let's take a look at Tywin's history with gendered violence:

 

Tywin Lannister's Gendered Grudge Violence

The first instance we hear of Tywin Lannister taking extreme vengeance upon a woman he feels has shamed his House is during the rebellion of the Reynes and Tarbecks. To be brief, from the Wiki:

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Ellyn Reyne, also known as Ellyn Tarbeck, was a member of House Reyne who married into first House Lannister and later House Tarbeck. She was the daughter of Lord Robert Reyne and the sister of Lord Roger Reyne, the Red Lion of Castemere, and Reynard Reyne.

Ellyn was described as a strong-willed, hot-tempered, and ambitious woman who dreamed of not only marrying into the wealthy House Lannister, but of also making herself the Lady of Casterly Rock.

Due to House Reyne's position and wealth, Lord Robert Reyne had little trouble arranging his daughter's betrothal to Ser Tywald Lannister, the heir of Gerold the Golden, Lord of  Casterly Rock. However, Ellyn's betrothed and father were slain during the Peake Uprising in 233 AC. Ellyn seduced the new heir, Tion, even though Tion was betrothed to a daughter of Lord Rowan. Gerold, having witnessed how quickly Ellyn acted after the deaths of Robert and Tywald, opposed this match, but the ailing lord eventually let his son follow his heart.

Lady Ellyn married Tion Lannister in 235 A.C.. With Lord Gerold Lannister twice widowed and refusing to remarry, Ellyn became the Lady of Casterly Rock in all but name. As Gerold became less involved with ruling, Ellyn became a rival of Jeyne Marbrand, the wife of the thirdborn son of Gerold, Tytos Lannister. Ellyn hosted tourneys and balls, and her splendid court was filled with musicians, artists, and mummers. She also used her new position to empower House Reyne. Ellyn lavished her kin—including her brothers Roger and Reynard—with offices, honors and lands.

Tion perished fighting in the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, dying without issue. To prepare Tytos for rule, Gerold became involved in the affairs of the westerlands again and most of the Reynes departed for Castamere. Ellyn remained at the Rock, but her influence her influence declined in favor of Tytos's wife, Jeyne. According to Maester Beldon, Ellyn unsuccessfully attempted to bed Tytos.

Lord Gerold Lannister had Ellyn hastily wed to the widowed Walderan Tarbeck, the fifty-five-year-old Lord of Tarbeck Hall. Lord Toad, the fool at Casterly Rock, called the rivalry between Ellyn and Jeyne the War of the Wombs.

Ellyn was present at the feast in the westerlands when the betrothal of Tytos's daughter, Genna Lannister, to Emmon Frey was announced. Ellyn laughed, probably because she did not find it a good match. Ellyn used House Lannister's wealth to rebuild Tarbeck Hall.

When Ser Tywin Lannister, the heir of Lord Tytos, demanded that debts owed to Casterly Rock be repaid, Walderan tried to intimidate Tytos but was subsequently imprisoned by Tywin. Ellyn took hostage two Lannisters of Lannisport, as well as Stafford Lannister, whose sister Joanna was betrothed to Tywin.Ellyn let Tytos know that she would kill the Lannisters if he harmed her husband Walderan. Although Tywin advised to send Lord Tarbeck back in three pieces, an exchange was arranged.

In 261 AC less then a year later, the angry Ser Tywin Lannister was determined to defeat the disloyal vassals of House Lannister, and he sent ravens to Tarbeck Hall and Castamere demanding answers for their crimes at Casterly Rock. As Tywin expected, Lord Roger and Ser Reynard Rayne, as well Lord Walderan and Lady Ellyn Tarbeck, rose in rebellion.

Without the permission of Lord Tytos Lannister, Tywin marched against the upstart vassals with three thousand men-at-arms and crossbowmen and five hundred knights. While marching, the host was joined by troops from House Marbrand and House Prester, as well as a dozen lesser lords.

When the Lannisters quickly marched on Tarbeck Hall, Lord Walderan Tarbeck responded with only his household knights. A short bloody battle ensued in which the Tarbecks were butchered, including Walderan's surviving son from his first marriage. Although the captive Walderan expected to be ransomed, Tywin ordered all Tarbecks, including Walderan and two sons from his second marriage, and any men wearing their badge decapitated. The Lannister host continued to Tarbeck Hall, with the heads of Lord Walderan and his kin impaled on spears.

Lady Ellyn Tarbeck, trusting the walls of Tarbeck Hall, sent ravens to Castamere appealing for aid from her brothers, Lord Roger and Reynard. Tywin, however, had siege engines prepared in less than a day. A lucky shot from a stone thrower sent a boulder over the walls and on to Tarbeck Hall's aged keep, bringing the castle down upon Ellyn and her surviving son, Tion the Red. All resistance ended and the gates were thrown open. Tywin commanded the castle be put to the torch. For a day and night the flames burned until nothing was left of Tarbeck Hall except a blackened empty shell. According to a semi-canon source,Tywin forced Ellyn's daughters, Rohanne and Cyrelle, to join the silent sisters. Rohanne's three-year-old son, the last Lord Tarbeck, disappeared during the fighting, possibly having been thrown down a well by Ser Amory Lorch.

 

This is the beginning of Tywin Lannister's gendered grudge violence to women who bring shame to his house. He enjoyed Lady Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck's death so much that it starts a need-based pattern.

The pattern that results from this encounter with Lady Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck (and the women of her house) is as follows:

1. Degrade

2. Dominate

3. Silence

4. Exile and/or Kill

5. End Bloodline and Destroy Legacy

6. Rationalize and Diminish Violence as "For the Greater Good"

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When Tarbeck Hall came crashing down on Lady Ellyn, that scheming bitch, Tyg claimed he smiled then…

--Genna Lannister Frey to Jaime Lannister, said of Lord Tywin Lannister who is known for never smiling

This need-based pattern escalates in levels of gendered violence in attempts to relive the first expression, until it reaches pattern satiation. After the death of Lady Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck, the next woman we know who damaged Tywin's ego and shamed his House is his lord father's mistress, currently unnamed. Of her, it is said:

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In [Tywin and his siblings'] father's final years, after their mother's passing, their sire had taken the comely daughter of a candlemaker as mistress. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer… but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on matters of state. Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap… for Tytos Lannister's ear was between his lady's legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother's jewels.

And for this, Tywin's need required an extreme revenge:

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All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power.

-- Epilogue, Dance

 

Cersei had been a year old when her grandfather died. The first thing her father had done on his ascension was to expel his own father's grasping, lowborn mistress from Casterly Rock. The silks and velvets Lord Tytos had lavished on her and the jewelry she had taken for herself had been stripped from her, and she had been sent forth naked to walk through the streets of Lannisport, so the west could see her for what she was.

Though she had been too young to witness the spectacle herself, Cersei had heard the stories growing up from the mouths of washerwomen and guardsmen who had been there. They spoke of how the woman had wept and begged, of the desperate way she clung to her garments when she was commanded to disrobe, of her futile efforts to cover her breasts and her sex with her hands as she hobbled barefoot and naked through the streets to exile.  "Vain and proud she was, before," she remembered one guard saying, "so haughty you'd think she'd forgot she come from dirt. Once we got her clothes off her, though, she was just another whore."

-- Cersei, Dance, the "Walk of Atonement"

This vile treatment of women, normalized in his own household, soon rippled through time to affect Cersei Lannister the moment Ser Kevan Lannister (Tywin's younger brother, who idolized him) felt a similar need for gendered vengeance.

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"Whatever Cersei may have done, she is still a daughter of the Rock, of mine own blood. I will not let her die a traitor's death, but I have made sure to draw her fangs. All her guards have been dismissed and replaced with my own men. In place of her former ladies-in-waiting, she will henceforth be attended by a septa and three novices selected by the High Septon. She is to have no further voice in the governance of the realm, nor in Tommen's education. I mean to return her to Casterly Rock after the trial and see that she remains there. Let that suffice."

The rest he left unsaid. Cersei was soiled goods now, her power at an end. Every baker's boy and beggar in the city had seen her in her shame and every tart and tanner from Flea Bottom to Pisswater Bend had gazed upon her nakedness, their eager eyes crawling over her breasts and belly and woman's parts. No queen could expect to rule again after that. In gold and silk and emeralds Cersei had been a queen, the next thing to a goddess; naked, she was only human, an aging woman with stretch marks on her belly and teats that had begun to sag… as the shrews in the crowds had been glad to point out to their husbands and lovers. Better to live shamed than die proud, Ser Kevan told himself. "My niece will make no further mischief," he promised Mace Tyrell. "You have my word on that, my lord."

...

 

I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself. Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. What I did I did for the good of House Lannister.

It was not as if his brother had never done the same.

--Epilogue, Dance

Following in Tywin Lannister's example, Ser Kevan Lannister enacts an extreme, gendered violence upon his own niece in revenge for her slights against him. He publicly humiliates and degrades her in order to strip her power and influence from her, and silences her in any matter to which he does not wish to hear her voice added, steals her son (and diminishes her legacy), and intends to ship her into exile to complete his domination of her. Although he feels guilty for doing this, he tries to convince himself that he need not--after all, it is one of his elder brother's tried and true methods of dispatch for pesky, uppity women who do not know their place, insulting men (their betters) at every turn. He then rationalizes away, and thus normalizes, this gendered violence by shrugging it off as for the greater good (of House Lannister and the realm). Ser Kevan Lannister thereby continues the trend within the parameters of the pattern Tywin Lannister established with Lady Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck and concluded (in its penultimate form) with Elia Martell Targaryen.

The result is Cersei's "Walk of Atonement" from the Great Sept of Baelor on Visenya's Hill to the Red Keep on Aegon's High Hill.

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"I have spoken with His High Holiness. He will not release you until you have atoned for your sins."

"I have confessed."

"Atoned, I said. Before the city. A walk—"

"No." She knew what her uncle was about to say, and she did not want to hear it. "Never. Tell him that, if you speak again. I am a queen, not some dockside whore."

"No harm would come to you. No one will touch—"

"No," she said, more sharply. "I would sooner die."

Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted…."

 

 

On the last night of her imprisonment, the queen could not sleep. Each time she closed her eyes, her head filled with forebodings and fantasies of the morrow. I will have guards, she told herself. They will keep the crowds away. No one will be allowed to touch me. The High Sparrow had promised her that much.

Even so, she was afraid. On the day Myrcella sailed for Dorne, the day of the bread riots, gold cloaks had been posted all along the route of the procession, but the mob had broken through their lines to tear the old fat High Septon into pieces and rape Lollys Stokeworth half a hundred times. And if that pale soft stupid creature could incite the animals when fully clothed, how much more lust would a queen inspire?

…

Barefoot and shivering she paced, a thin blanket draped about her shoulders. She was anxious for the day to come. By evening it would all be done. A little walk and I'll be home, I'll be back with Tommen, in my own chambers inside Maegor's Holdfast. Her uncle said it was the only way to save herself. Was it, though? She could not trust her uncle, no more than she trusted this High Septon. I could still refuse. I could still insist upon my innocence and hazard all upon a trial.

…

She had to reach Tommen, no matter the costs. He loves me. He will not refuse his own mother. Joff was stubborn and unpredictable, but Tommen is a good little boy, a good little king. He will do as he is told. If she stayed here, she was doomed, and the only way she would return to the Red Keep was by walking. The High Sparrow had been adamant, and Ser Kevan refused to lift a finger against him.

"No harm will come to me today," Cersei said when the day's first light brushed her window. "Only my pride will suffer." The words rang hollow in her ears. Jaime may yet come. She pictured him riding through the morning mists, his golden armor bright in the light of the rising sun. Jaime, if you ever loved me…

When her gaolers came for her, Septa Unella, Septa Moelle, and Septa Scolera led the procession. With them were four novices and two of the silent sisters. The sight of the silent sisters in their grey robes filled the queen with sudden terrors. Why are they here? Am I to die? The silent sisters attended to the dead. "The High Septon promised that no harm would come to me."

"Nor will it." Septa Unella beckoned to the novices. They brought lye soap, a basin of warm water, a pair of shears, and a long straightrazor. The sight of the steel sent a shiver through her. They mean to shave me. A little more humiliation, a raisin for my porridge. She would not give them the pleasure of hearing her beg. I am Cersei of House Lannister, a lion of the Rock, the rightful queen of these Seven Kingdoms, trueborn daughter of Tywin Lannister. And hair grows back. "Get on with it," she said.

The elder of the two silent sisters took up the shears. A practiced barber, no doubt; her order often cleaned the corpses of the noble slain before returning them to their kin, and trimming beards and cutting hair was part of that. The woman bared the queen's head first. Cersei sat as still as a stone statue as the shears clicked. Drifts of golden hair fell to the floor. She had not been allowed to tend it properly penned up in this cell, but even unwashed and tangled it shone where the sun touched it. My crown, the queen thought. They took the other crown away from me, and no they are stealing this one as well. When her locks and curls were piled up around her feet, one of the novices soaped her head and the silent sister scraped away the stubble with a razor.

Cersei hoped that would be the end of it, but no. "Remove your shift, Your Grace," Septa Unella asked.

"Here?" the queen asked. "Why?"

"You must be shorn."

Shorn, she thought, like a sheep. She yanked the shift over her head and tossed it to the floor. "Do what you will."

Then it was the soap again, the warm water, and the razor. The hair beneath her arms went next, then her legs, and last of all the fine golden down that covered her mound. When the silent sister crept between her legs with the razor, Cersei found herself remembering all the times that Jaime had knelt were she was kneeling now, planting kisses on the inside of her thighs, making her wet. His kisses were always warm. The razor was ice-cold.

When the deed was done she was as naked and vulnerable as a woman could be. Not even a hair to hide behind. A little laugh burst from her lips, bleak and bitter.

"Does Your Grace find this amusing?" said Septa Scolera.

"No, septa," said Cersei. But one day I will have your tongue ripped out with hot pincers, and that will be hilarious.

One of the novices had brought a robe for her, a soft white septa's robe to cover her as she made her way down the tower steps and through the sept, so any worshippers they met along the way might be spared the sight of naked flesh. Seven save us all, what hypocrites they are. "Will I be permitted a pair of sandals?" she asked. "The streets are filthy."

"Not so filthy as your sins," said Septa Moelle. "His High Holiness has commanded that you present yourself as the gods made you. Did you have sandals on your feet when you came forth from your lady mother's womb?"

"No, septa," the queen was forced to say.

"Then you have your answer."

…

The tower bells were singing, summoning the city to bear witness to her shame.

…

The wide marble plaza below was as crowded as it had been on the day that Stark had died. Everywhere she looked the queen saw eyes. The mob seemed to be equal parts men and women. Some had children on their shoulders. Beggars and thieves, taverners and tradesfolk, tanners and stableboys and mummers, the poorer sort of whore, all the scum had come out to see a queen brought low. And mingled in with them were the Poor Fellows, filthy, unshaven creatures armed with spears and axes and clad in bits of dinted plate, rusted mail, and cracked leather, under roughspun surcoats bleached white and blazoned with the seven-pointed star of the Faith. The High Sparrow's ragged army.

Part of her still yearned for Jaime to appear and rescue her from this humiliation, but her twin was nowhere to be seen. Nor was her uncle present. That did not surprise her. Ser Kevan had made his views plain during his last visit; her shame must not be allowed to tarnish the honor of Casterly Rock. No lions would walk with her today. This ordeal was hers and hers alone.

…

Cersei raised her head. Beyond the plaza, beyond the sea of hungry eyes and gaping mouths and dirty faces, across the city, Aegon's High Hill rose in the distance, the towers and battlements of the Red Keep blushing pink in the light of the rising sun. It is not so far. Once she reached its gates, the worst of her travails would be over. She would have her son again. She would have her champion. Her uncle promised her. Tommen is waiting for me. My little king. I can do this. I must.

Septa Unella stepped forward. "A sinner comes before you," she declared. "She is Cersei of House Lannister, queen dowager, mother to His Grace King Tommen, widow of His Grace King Robert, and she has committed grievous falsehoods and fornications."

Septa Moelle moved up on the queen's right. "This sinner has confessed her sins and begged for absolution and forgiveness. His High Holiness has commanded her to demonstrate her repentance by putting aside all pride and artifice and presenting herself as the gods made her before the good people of the city."

Septa Scolera finished. "So now this sinner comes before you with a humble heart, shorn of secrets and concealments, naked before the eyes of gods and men, to make her walk of atonement."

Cersei had been a year old when her grandfather died. The first thing her father had done on his ascension was to expel his own father's grasping, lowborn mistress from Casterly Rock. The silks and velvets Lord Tytos had lavished on her and the jewelry she had taken for herself had been stripped from her, and she had been sent forth naked to walk through the streets of Lannisport, so the west could see her for what she was.

Though she had been too young to witness the spectacle herself, Cersei had heard the stories growing up from the mouths of washerwomen and guardsmen who had been there. They spoke of how the woman had wept and begged, of the desperate way she clung to her garments when she was commanded to disrobe, of her futile efforts to cover her breasts and her sex with her hands as she hobbled barefoot and naked through the streets to exile. "Vain and proud she was, before," she remembered one guard saying, "so haughty you'd think she'd forgot she come from dirt. Once we got her clothes off her, though, she was just another whore."

If Ser Kevan and the High Sparrow thought that it would be the same with her, they were very much mistake. Lord Tywin's blood was in her. I am a lioness. I will not cringe for them.

The queen shrugged off her robe.

She bared herself in one smooth, unhurried motion, as if she were back in her own chambers, disrobing for her bath with no one but her bedmaids looking on. When the cold wind touched her skin, she shivered violently. It took all her strength of will not to try and hide herself with her hands, as her grandfather's whore had done. Her fingers tightened into fists, her nails digging into her palms. They were looking at her, all the hungry eyes. But what were they seeing? I am beautiful, she reminded herself. How many times had Jaime told her that? Even Robert had given her that much, when he came to her bed in his cups to pay her drunken homage with his cock.

They looked at Ned Stark the same way, though.

She had to move. Naked, shorn, barefoot, Cersei made a slow descent down the broad marble steps. Gooseprickles rose on her arms and legs. She held her chin high, as a queen should, and her escort fanned out ahead of her.

…

"Whore!" someone cried out. A woman's voice. Women were always the cruelest where other women were concerned.

Cersei ignored her. There will be more, and worse. These creatures have no sweeter joy in life than jeering at their betters. She could not silence them, so she must pretend she did not hear them. She would not see them either. She would keep her eyes on Aegon's High Hill across the city, on the towers of the Red Keep shimmering in the light. That was where she would find her salvation, if her uncle had kept his part of their bargain.

He wanted this. Him and the High Sparrow. And the little rose as well, I do not doubt. I have sinned and must atone, must parade my shame before the eyes of every beggar in the city. They think that this will break my pride, that it will make an end to me, but they are wrong.

Septa Unella and Septa Moelle kept pace with her, with Septa Scolera scurrying behind, ringing a bell. "Shame," the old hag called, "shame upon the sinner, shame, shame."

…

"Queen Cunt," a drunkard pronounced solemnly from a balcony above, lifting his cup to her in a mocking toast. "All hail the royal teats!" Words are wind, Cersei thought. Words cannot harm me.

…

She walked through mud and dung, bleeding, goosefleshed, hobbling. All around her was a babble of sound. "My wife has sweeter teats than those," a man shouted. A teamster cursed as the Poor Fellows ordered his wagon out of the way. "Shame, shame, shame on the sinner," chanted the septas. "Look at this one," a whore called from a brothel window, lifting her skirts to the men below, "it's not had half as many cocks up it as hers." Bells were ringing, ringing, ringing. "That can't be the queen," a boy said, "she's saggy as my mum." This is my penance, Cersei told herself. I have sinned most grievously, this is my atonement. It will be over soon, it will be behind me, then I can forget.

The queen began to see familiar faces. A bald man with bushy side-whiskers frowned down from a windown with her father's frown, and for an instant looked so much like Lord Tywin that she stumbled.

…

That was when she fell the second time.

She was shaking like a leaf when they pulled her to her feet. "Please," she said. "Mother have mercy. I confessed."

"You did," said Septa Moelle. "This is your atonement."

"It is not much farther," said Septa Unella. "See?" She pointed. "Up the hill, that's all."

Up the hill. That's all. It was true. They were at the foot of Aegon's High Hill, the castle above them.

"Whore," someone screamed. "Brotherfucker," another voice added. "Abomination."

"Want a suck on this, Your Grace?" A man in a butcher's apron pulled his cock out of his breeches, grinning.

…

If anything, the jeers and shouts were cruder here. Her walk had not taken her through Flea Bottom, so its denizens had packed onto the lower slopes of Aegon's High Hill to see the show. The faces leering out at her from behind the shields and spears of the Poor Fellows seemed twisted, monstrous, hideous. Pigs and naked children were everywhere underfoot, crippled beggars and cutpurses swarmed like roaches through the press. She saw men whose teeth had been filed into points, hags with goiters as big as their heads, a whore with a huge striped snake draped about her breasts and shoulders, a man whose cheeks and brow were covered with open sores that wept grey pus. They grinned and licked their lips and hooted at her as she went limping past, her breasts heaving with the effort of the climb. Some shouted obscene proposals, others insults. Words are wind, she thought, words cannot hurt me. I am beautiful, the most beautiful woman in all Westeros, Jaime says so, Jaime would never lie to me. Even Robert, Robert never loved me, but he saw that I was beautiful, he wanted me.

She did not feel beautiful though. She felt old, used, filthy, ugly. There were stretch marks on her belly from the children she had borne and her breasts were not as firm as they had been when she was younger. Without a gown to hold them up, they sagged against her chest. I should not have done this. I was their queen, but now they've seen, they've seen, they've seen. I should never have let them see. Gowned and crowned, she was a queen. Naked, bloody, limping, she was only a woman, not so very different from their wives, more like their mothers than their pretty little maiden daughters. What have I done?

There was something in her eyes, stinging, blurring her sight. She could not cry, she would not cry, the worms must never see her weep. Cersei rubbed her eyes with the heels of her hands. A gust of cold wind made her shiver violently.

And suddenly the hag was there, standing in the crowd with her pendulous teats and her warty greenish skin, leering with the rest, with malice shining from her crusty yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be," she hissed, "until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold most dear."

And then there was no stopping the tears. They burned down the queen's cheeks like acid. Cersei gave a sharp cry, covered her nipples with one arm, slid her other hand down to hide her slit, and began to run, shoving her way past the line of Poor Fellows, crouching as she scrambled crab-legged up the hill. Partway up she stumbled, fell, rose, then fell again ten yards farther on. The next thing she knew she was crawling, scrambling uphill on all fours like a dog as the good folks of King's Landing made way for her, laughing and jeering and applauding her.

Then all at once the crowd parted and seemed to dissolve, and there were the castle gates before her, and a line of spearmen in gilded half-helms and crimson cloaks. Cersei heard the gruff, familiar sound of her uncle growling orders and glimpsed a flash of white to either side as Ser Boros Blount and Ser Meryn Trant strode toward her in their pale plate and snowy cloaks. "My son," she cried. "Where is my son? Where is Tommen?"

"Not here. No son should have to bear witness to his mother's shame." Ser Kevan's voice was harsh. "Cover her up."

The traumatic consequences of this treatment are startling to behold, even to Kevan Lannister himself:

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"Whatever Cersei may have done, she is still a daughter of the Rock, of mine own blood. I will not let her die a traitor's death, but I have made sure to draw her fangs. All her guards have been dismissed and replaced with my own men. In place of her former ladies-in-waiting, she will henceforth be attended by a septa and three novices selected by the High Septon. She is to have no further voice in the governance of the realm, nor in Tommen's education. I mean to return her to Casterly Rock after the trial and see that she remains there. Let that suffice."

The rest he left unsaid. Cersei was soiled goods now, her power at an end. Every baker's boy and beggar in the city had seen her in her shame and every tart and tanner from Flea Bottom to Pisswater Bend had gazed upon her nakedness, their eager eyes crawling over her breasts and belly and woman's parts. No queen could expect to rule again after that. In gold and silk and emeralds Cersei had been a queen, the next thing to a goddess; naked, she was only human, an aging woman with stretch marks on her belly and teats that had begun to sag… as the shrews in the crowds had been glad to point out to their husbands and lovers. Better to live shamed than die proud, Ser Kevan told himself. "My neice will make no further mischief," he promised Mace Tyrell. "You have my word on that, my lord."

…

His day was far from done. He had reports to read, letters to write. And supper with Cersei and the king. His niece had been subdued and submissive since her walk of atonement, thank the gods. The novices who attended her reported that she spent a third of her waking hours with her son, another third in prayer, and the rest in her tub. She was bathing four or five times a day, scrubbing herself with horsehair brushes and strong lye soap, as if she meant to scrape her skin off.

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhh… had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon?

…

And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.

I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself. Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. What I did I did for the good of House Lannister.

It was not as if his brother had never done the same. In their father's final years, after their mother's passing, their sire had taken the comely daughter of a candlemaker as mistress. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer… but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on matters of state. Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap… for Tytos Lannister's ear was between his lady's legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother's jewels.

Until the day their lord father's heart had burst in his chest as he was ascending a steep flight of steps to her bed, that is. All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.

"It had to be," Ser Kevan muttered over the last of his wine. His High Holiness had to be appeased. Tommen needed the Faith behind him in the battles to come. And Cersei… the golden child had grown into a vain, foolish, greedy woman. Left to rule, she would have ruined Tommen as she had Joffrey.

Outside the wind was rising, clawing at the shutters of his chamber. Ser Kevan pushed himself to his feet. Time to face the lioness in her den. We have pulled her claws. Jaime, though… But no, he would not brood on that.

…

Cersei rose when he entered and kissed him lightly on the cheek. "Dear uncle. It is so good of you to sup with us." The queen was dressed as modestly as any matron, in a dark brown gown that buttoned up to her throat and a hooded green mantle that covered her shaved head. Before her walk she would have flaunted here baldness beneath a golden crown.

…

"The new tower will be twice as tall as the one you burned, he says."

Cersei gave a throaty laugh. "Long lances, tall towers… is Lord Tyrell hinting at something?"

That made him smile. It is good that she still remembers how to laugh.

…

Ser Kevan could not remember ever seeing his niece so quiet, so subdued, so demure. All for the good, he supposed. But it made him sad as well. Her fire is quenched, she who used to burn so bright.

…

"Your wife… do you mean to bring her to court?"

"No." Dorna was a gentle soul, never comfortable but at home with friends and kin around her. She had done well by their children, dreamed of having grandchildren, prayed seven times a day, loved needlework and flowers. In King's Landing she would be as happy as one of Tommen's kittens in a pit of vipers. "My lady wife mislikes travel. Lannisport is her place."

"It is a wise woman who knows her place."

He did not like the sound of that. "Say what you mean."

"I thought I did."

What happened to Elia Martell in particular, then, puts one in mind of Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, the crofter's daughter, the next escalation of Tywin's gendered violent needs:

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Tyrion grinned. "That would have been amusing. I can just see him fending off Ser Vardis with his woodharp." He resumed his whistling. "Do you know this song?" he asked.

"You hear it here and there, in inns and whorehouses."

"Myrish. 'The Seasons of My Love.' Sweet and sad, if you understand the words. The first girl I ever bedded used to sing it, and I've never been able to put it out of my head." Tyrion gazed up at the sky. It was a clear cold night and the stars shone down upon the mountains as bright and merciless as truth. "I met her on a night like this," he heard himself saying. "Jaime and I were riding back from Lannisport when we heard a scream, and she came running out into the road with two men dogging her heels, shouting threats. My brother unsheathed his sword and went after them, while I dismounted to protect the girl. She was scarcely a year older than I was, dark-haired, slender, with a face that would break your heart. It certainly broke mine. Lowborn, half-starved, unwashed… yet lovely. They'd torn the rags she was wearing half off her back, so I wrapped her in my cloak while Jaime chased the men into the woods. By the time he came trotting back, I'd gotten a name out of her, and a story. She was a crofter's child, orphaned when her father died of fever, on her way to… well, nowhere, really.

"Jaime was all in a lather to hunt down the men. It was not often outlaws dared prey on travelers so near to Casterly Rock, and he took it as an insult. The girl was too frightened to send off by herself, though, so I offered to take her to the closest inn and feed her while my brother rode back to the Rock for help.

"She was hungrier than I would have believed. We finished two whole chickens and part of a third, and drank a flagon of wine, talking. I was only thirteen, and the wine went to my head, I fear. The next thing I knew, I was sharing her bed. If she was shy, I was shyer. I'll never know where I found the courage. When I broke her maidenhead, she wept, but afterward she kissed me and sang her little song, and by morning I was in love."

"You?" Bronn's voice was amused.

"Absurd, isn't it?" Tyrion began to whistle the song again. "I married her," he finally admitted.

"A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter's daughter," Bronn said. "How did you manage that?"

"Oh, you'd be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon. I dared not bring my bride home to Casterly Rock, so I set her up in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father." Tyrion was surprised at how desolate it made him feel to say it, even after all these years. Perhaps he was just tired. "That was the end of my marriage." He sat up and stared at the dying fire, blinking at the light.

"He sent the girl away?"

"He did better than that," Tyrion said. "First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

"After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she…" The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into the darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."

After a time he heard the noise again, the rasp of steel on stone as Bronn sharpened his sword. "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me."

Tyrion swung around to face him. "You may get that chance one day. Remember what I told you. A Lannister always pays his debts."

The above indicates that although a rapist in his own right, Tywin Lannister does not do his raping himself, but by proxy. When it came to Tysha, he used an entire Lannister garrison and Tyrion himself to rape Tysha. It also indicates Tywin was likely present to oversee the rape of Tysha... "after Jaime had made his confession, Lord Tywin brought in my wife and gave her to his guards." ... "He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch." ... "Lord Tywin had me go last," ... "and he gave me a gold coin to pay her..."

Lord Tywin felt a tremendous need to have his revenge upon Tysha for dishonoring House Lannister with her presence, just the same as he felt for his father's paramour and Elia Martell.

The ordering of these events shows a clear escalation in Tywin's hatred for and need to humiliate and dominate women. His history of violence against women begins with the events of the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion, which culminated in Lady Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck's death, which provided him the satisfaction and stimulus to create his need-based pattern.

Then follows the assault upon Lord Tytos's mistress, who he forced to walk naked for a fortnight through the streets of Lannisport. She was not touched, according to Cersei and Ser Kevan Lannister, but no doubt the psychological damage of this degradation is extreme.

Next is the rape of Tysha. It is no longer sufficient for Tywin's needs that the woman he wishes to hurt is only psychologically damaged (he may be "accumulating" the slights by various women into his Madonna-whore complex, whereby the next woman must be punished for all the "slights" of the women to come before her). He must see her physically harmed as well. He accomplishes this with rape. Tysha is gang-raped by a Lannister garrison and Tyrion, his son, on Tywin's orders. She is permitted to go free after this, and may have been shipped in exile (like his father's mistress) to Braavos (the Sailor's Wife; the girl, Lanna, may be her daughter, then) so as to prevent any further contact between Tyrion and her or to prevent any further "shaming" of House Lannister (via rumors that she was Tyrion's wife, perhaps?).

Last comes Elia Martell, who Tywin wishes to punish on two fronts. First, he had already rejected her as unfit for his son and heir, Jaime Lannister. Second, afterward, she married and reproduced with Rhaegar Targaryen, who Tywin had hoped to marry to his daughter, Cersei, only to be told that his daughter was unworthy (a "servant's" daughter) for consideration. Now it is no longer sufficient that he combine physical (rape) and psychological (trauma) damages against women he wishes to harm, but escalates his modus operandi further. Elia Martell is not permitted to go free after her foul treatment the way Tytos's mistress and Tysha were, but must be murdered and forever silenced thereafter.

Thus, Tywin's vengeance upon women escalates from 1. Psychological traumas only, to 2. Rape and psychological traumas, non-fatal, to 3. Rape and psychological traumas, fatal.

 

Having established that Tywin Lannister had the motive to commit this crime, it is appropriate to now look at his means and opportunity.

The means are clear enough. Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch at least are active parties in helping Tywin to commit his savageries. Gregor Clegane admits as much to Oberyn Martell, and Tywin admits as much to Tyrion Lannister.

 

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  "Elia of Dorne. I killed her screaming whelp. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this." – Gregor Clegane to Prince Oberyn Martell

 

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"I'll hear no more of this. I have been considering how best to appease Oberyn Martell and his entourage."

"Oh? Is this something I'm allowed to know, or should I leave so you can discuss it with yourself?"

His father ignored the sally. "Prince Oberyn's presence here is unfortunate. His brother is a cautious man, a reasoned man, subtle, deliberate, even indolent to a degree. He is a man who weighs the consequences of every word and every action. But Oberyn has always been half-mad."

"Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?"

"No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it."

"Well, he's here now, with half the nobility of Dorne in his tail, and he grows more impatient every day," said Tyrion. "Perhaps I should show him the brothels of King's Landing, that might distract him. A tool for every task, isn't that how it works? My tool is yours, Father. Never let it be said that House Lannister blew its trumpets and I did not respond."

Lord Tywin's mouth tightened. "Very droll. Shall I have them sew you a suit of motley, and a little hat with bells on it?"

"If I wear it, do I have leave to say anything I want about His Grace King Joffrey?"

Lord Tywin seated himself again and said, "I was made to suffer my father's follies. I will not suffer yours. Enough."

"Very well, as you ask so pleasantly. The Red Viper is not going to be pleasant, I fear… nor will he content himself with Ser Gregor's head alone."

"All the more reason not to give it to him."

"No to…?" Tyrion was shocked. "I thought we were agreed that the woods were full of beasts."

"Lesser beasts." Lord Tywin's fingers laced together under his chin. "Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies."

"Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who…"

"He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King's Landing."

"And when Oberyn demands the justice he's come for?"

"I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children," Lord Tywin said calmly. "So will you, if he asks."

"Ser Amory Lorch is dead," Tyrion said flatly.

"Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell."

"You may call that justice…"

"It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl's body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father's bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below."

"Well, it's a tale, and Ser Amory's not like to deny it. What will you tell Oberyn when he asks who gave Lorch his orders?"

"Ser Amory acted on his own in the hope of winning favor from the new king. Robert's hatred for Rhaegar was scarcely a secret."

It might serve, Tyrion had to concede, but the snake will not be happy. "Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape… even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of… two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister. "Was it a soft silk pillow that slew Robb Stark?"

"It was to be an arrow, at Edmure Tully's wedding feast. The boy was too wary in the field. He kept his men in good order, and surrounded himself with outriders and bodyguards."

"So Lord Walder slew him under his own roof, at his own table?" Tyrion made a fist. "What of Lady Catelyn?"

"Slain as well, I'd say. A pair of wolfskins. Frey had intended to keep her captive, but perhaps something went awry."

"So much for guest right."

"The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine."

"Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection."

 

 

 

The Sack of King's Landing

Now, to have a look at Tywin's opportunity. Where was Tywin Lannister during the Sack of King's Landing? Unfortunately, it is never expressly stated where he was or what he was doing, but I think the hints are there to establish that Tywin was present during Elia's rape and murder and the murder of Prince Aegon VI (at least; he may have instructed Lorch to bring Rhaenys into the nursery from where she hid beneath Rhaegar's bed, which is why Lorch reacted so violently when she kicked and struggled).

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"How long have you been spying for my sister?" Tyrion asked.

Pycelle's breathing was rapid and shallow. "All I did, I did for House Lannister." A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man's brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. "Always… for years… your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servants… 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates…"

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king… I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly…"

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me… King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

In the Above, Grand Maester Pycelle establishes his complicity in Tywin Lannister's Sack of King's Landing, by advising the Mad King to open the gates to Tywin Lannister despite knowing that it was a terrible idea ("the war was done... Aerys was mad... the realm needed a king... I prayed it should be [Tywin Lannister]" and not "Robert..." but "Lord Stark moved too swiftly" and arrived at the city with Baratheon-Stark-Tully-Arryn auxiliary forces before it possible for the Lannisters to cement their control over King's Landing.

Of the Sack of King's Landing, it is said (from the Wiki):

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Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and the Warden of the West who had remained neutral until the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12,000 men from the westerlands, claiming loyalty to Aerys and asking to be let in. Grand Maester Pycelle convinced the Mad King to open his gates to the Lannisters, which was done over the objections of his master of whisperers, Varys. Tywin had been the Hand of the King to Aerys earlier in his reign.

The Lannister forces began to sack the city, killing people of all ages and raping women. Many pyromancers were murdered, and it is also possible that Manly Stokeworth of the gold cloaks died in the fighting. In response, Aerys ordered his most recent Hand, the pyromancer Lord Rossart to ignite hidden wildfire caches throughout the city. Ser Jaime Lannister of the Kingsguard, who was holding the Red Keep, asked permission to make terms when he realized King's Landing would fall. The Mad King refused and ordered Jaime to kill his father, Lord Tywin.

Jaime instead hunted down Lord Rossart before the Hand could leave the Red keep, thereby preventing the wildfire plot, and then he slit the throat of Aerys before the Iron Throne. At approximately the same time, other Lannister soldiers fought Targaryen loyalists on the steps and in the armory of the Red Keep, and Lord Stark was leading Robert's vanguard through the King's Gate. Upon arriving, Lord Roland Crakehall, one of Tywin's bannermen, asked Jaime if they should proclaim a new king. Left unsaid was a clear implication, asking whether Jaime would proclaim Tywin Lannister, Robert Baratheon, or a member of House Targaryen. Jaime told Roland to proclaim whichever king he wished, as well as to spread word of Aerys's death to any Targaryen loyalists still fighting, in the hope it would convince them to surrender.

Meanwhile, Tywin sent his knights Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch to scale Maegor's Holdfast and deal with Rhaegar's family, securing the throne for Robert and proving that House Lannister had forsaken the Targaryens forever. Gregor smashed the head of the infant Prince Aegon in front of his mother Elia in the nursery, and he then raped and murdered the Dornish princess. A floor above, Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys from under her father's bed and stabbed her half a hundred times. It is not publicly known who killed Rhaegar's family, however.

When Ned Stark arrived shortly thereafter at the head of the main rebel army, he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne and Aerys's corpse slumped below it. Tywin presented to Robert the bodies of Elia and the children Aegon and Rhaenys as tokens of his fealty, laid out beneath the Iron Throne. The children were wrapped in crimson cloaks to hide the blood.

After the Trident, Lord Eddard Stark raced the Allied van south to King's Landing, but was beat to the gates by Lord Tywin Lannister.

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"Do you remember the Trident, Your Grace?"

"I won my crown there. How should I forget it?"

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us."

Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. "Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?"

"Not our men," Ned said patiently. "Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery."

The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appears before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.

Tywin Lannister's forces appear outside the gates of the city, begging entry and proclaiming friendship. Grand Maester Pycelle councils King Aerys II to open the gates; Lord Varys councils against this. King Aerys II orders that the gates be opened to the Lannister forces. The Sack of the city commences.

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"How long have you been spying for my sister?" Tyrion asked.

Pycelle's breathing was rapid and shallow. "All I did, I did for House Lannister." A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man's brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. "Always… for years… your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servants… 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates…"

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king… I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly…"

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me… King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

-- Tyrion, Clash

 

Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, and he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him.

-- Jaime, Storm

In the above, note that Tywin has spent an entire year of war "brooding on all the wrongs... done him." Doubtless, the rejection of Cersei and selection of Elia Martell was one such "wrong." Is the reader to suppose he simply forgot this slight--embodied in the persons of Elia and her children--when sacking a city that had peaceably fallen (i.e., sans bloodshed due "ally" treachery)?

Ser Jaime Lannister seeks permission to negotiate surrender with his father, but King Aerys II commands that Jaime return with his father's head.

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"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant."

--Jaime, Storm

While the city is being Sacked following Tywin's betrayal, Aerys II loses all hope and decides to go through with his wildfire plot to burn the city down. He commands Hand of the King Rossart (the pyromancer) to see this done. Ser Jaime Lannister kills him, and then kills Aerys II Targaryen.

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"[Robert Baratheon] rode to save the realm," she insisted.

To save the realm. "Did you know that my brother set the Blackwater Rush afire? Wildfire will burn on water. Aerys would have bathed in it if he'd dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire." Jaime felt lightheaded. It is the heat in here, the poison in my blood, the last of my fever. I am not myself. He eased himself down until the water reached his chin. "Soiled my white cloak… I wore my gold armor that day, but…"

"Gold armor?" Her voice sounded far off, faint.

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishment coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys's new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious.

"Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted." It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. "I'd thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyronmancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets.

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, the burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightflame before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him… that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

"Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, and he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him.

"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.

"When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers. Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered me gold, and Garigus wept for mercy. Well, a sword's more merciful than fire, but I don't think Garigus much appreciated the kindness I showed him."

--Jaime, Storm

Sers Westerling and Crakehall (Lannister forces, having burst into the throne room) witness the last of this assault upon King Aerys. They ask Ser Jaime Lannister who is to be declared king now. During this time, the city is being Sacked, the lion of Lannister flies the ramparts, Maegor's Holdfast is being scaled (Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch scale the walls to breach the inner keep), and Ned Stark's van arrives at the King's Gate to the city. They are not thwarted upon entry.

From Jaime Lannister, Clash:

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But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well.

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

"Rossart's," answered Jaime.

Those purple eyes grew huge then, and the royal mouth drooped open in shock. He lost control of his bowels, turned, and ran for the Iron Throne. Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy. A single slash across his throat was all it took to end it. So easy, he remembered thinking. A king should die harder than this. Rossart at least had tried to make a fight of it, though if truth be told he fought like an alchemist. Queer that they never ask who killed Rossart… but of course, he was no one, lowborn, Hand for a fortnight, just another mad fancy of the Mad King.

Ser Elys Westerling and Lord Crakehall and others of his father's knights burst into the hall in time to see the last of it, so there was no way for Jaime to vanish and let some braggart steal the praise or blame. It would be blame, he knew at once when he saw the way they looked at him… though perhaps that was fear. Lannister or no, he was one of Aerys's seven.

"The castle is ours, ser, and the city," Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King's Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin's son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.

"Tell them the Mad King is dead," he commanded. "Spare all those who yield and hold them captive."

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plaid: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark.

 

 

Why did Eddard Stark arrive to the throne room first, I wonder? Could it be because Tywin Lannister was occupied elsewhere, in the nursery? He'd reached the castle first, and yet he is nowhere to be found during the most pivotal moments of the Sack, when one king is proclaimed dead and the name of the new (possibly a dragonking, whom Tywin was in the process of slaying at that moment, per Jaime's "temptation" to crown Aegon) was in question. Tywin Lannister could have claimed the kingdom for himself in that moment, but Eddard Stark (who was only just entering the city through the King's Gate whilst Lannister forces had already breached the Red Keep and was currently breaching Maegor's Holdfast!) somehow managed to make it to the throne room and claim the kingdom (in Robert Baratheon's name) first! This is highly unusual, I think.

 Of his entry to the Red Keep at this time, Eddard Stark tells Robert Baratheon:

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"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. "There was no honor in that conquest."

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

"You avenged Lyanna on the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

"That did not bring her back." Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. "The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown… it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe… and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike."

"I cannot answer for the gods, Your Grace… only for what I found when I rode into the throne room that day," Ned said. "Aerys was dead on the floor, drowned in his own blood. His dragon skulls stared down from the walls. Lannister's men were everywhere. Jaime wore the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor. I can see him still. Even his sword was gilded. He was seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights, wearing a helm fashioned in the shape of a lion's head. How he glittered!"

"This is well known," the king complained.

"I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king's blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister's men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took of his helm, and he said to me, 'Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It's not a very comfortable seat, I'm afraid.'"

In the meanwhile (sometime between Aerys's murder, when Ned Stark was entering the King's Gate and Clegane and Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor's Holdfast, and Ned's claiming of the throne in Robert Baratheon's name, when Tywin Lannister is nowhere to be found, Elia Martell Targaryen is raped and murdered, alongside her children, Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon VI Targaryen. Tywin Lannister speaks of the event as such:

[Also note that Lord Varys claims to have ferreted Prince Aegon Targaryen VI to safety, having switched him with a child from Pisswater Bend (when?).]

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I'll hear no more of this. I have been considering how best to appease Oberyn Martell and his entourage."

"Oh? Is this something I'm allowed to know, or should I leave so you can discuss it with yourself?"

His father ignored the sally. "Prince Oberyn's presence here is unfortunate. His brother is a cautious man, a reasoned man, subtle, deliberate, even indolent to a degree. He is a man who weighs the consequences of every word and every action. But Oberyn has always been half-mad."

"Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?"

"No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it."

"Well, he's here now, with half the nobility of Dorne in his tail, and he grows more impatient every day," said Tyrion. "Perhaps I should show him the brothels of King's Landing, that might distract him. A tool for every task, isn't that how it works? My tool is yours, Father. Never let it be said that House Lannister blew its trumpets and I did not respond."

Lord Tywin's mouth tightened. "Very droll. Shall I have them sew you a suit of motley, and a little hat with bells on it?"

"If I wear it, do I have leave to say anything I want about His Grace King Joffrey?"

Lord Tywin seated himself again and said, "I was made to suffer my father's follies. I will not suffer yours. Enough."

"Very well, as you ask so pleasantly. The Red Viper is not going to be pleasant, I fear… nor will he content himself with Ser Gregor's head alone."

"All the more reason not to give it to him."

"No to…?" Tyrion was shocked. "I thought we were agreed that the woods were full of beasts."

"Lesser beasts." Lord Tywin's fingers laced together under his chin. "Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies."

"Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who…"

"He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King's Landing."

"And when Oberyn demands the justice he's come for?"

"I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children," Lord Tywin said calmly. "So will you, if he asks."

"Ser Amory Lorch is dead," Tyrion said flatly.

"Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell."

"You may call that justice…"

"It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl's body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father's bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below."

"Well, it's a tale, and Ser Amory's not like to deny it. What will you tell Oberyn when he asks who gave Lorch his orders?"

"Ser Amory acted on his own in the hope of winning favor from the new king. Robert's hatred for Rhaegar was scarcely a secret."

It might serve, Tyrion had to concede, but the snake will not be happy. "Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape… even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of… two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister. "Was it a soft silk pillow that slew Robb Stark?"

"It was to be an arrow, at Edmure Tully's wedding feast. The boy was too wary in the field. He kept his men in good order, and surrounded himself with outriders and bodyguards."

"So Lord Walder slew him under his own roof, at his own table?" Tyrion made a fist. "What of Lady Catelyn?"

"Slain as well, I'd say. A pair of wolfskins. Frey had intended to keep her captive, but perhaps something went awry."

"So much for guest right."

"The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, no mine."

"Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection."

 

Lots of good stuff in there. Tywin Lannister sounds like a man who protests overmuch. Notably, he gives no accounting of where he was at this time, or what he was doing—only that he was close enough that Lorch could carry Rhaenys's corpse to him for inspection after the deed was done. The "excuses" he gives for Lorch's behavior could just as well apply to his thoughts about his own behavior in hindsight—it was folly, Elia need not have been harmed, a soft silk pillow for the children would have sufficed, but the blood was in him, etc.

Astonishingly, Tywin dares say to Tyrion (who he sexually abused alongside his new wife, Tysha!), "even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I hope?"

Well, who was it who commanded the brutal gang-rape of Tysha? Tyrion was present when Tywin Lannister gave such commands once before, and therefore has no cause to doubt Tywin's capacity to commit such heinous crimes for the sake of his "honor" and to appease his feelings of inadequacy (at being a laughingstock) and humiliation. Unfortunately, Tyrion is still in his "blaming the victim" stage of denial about what was done to Tysha and does not think to confront his father with his history of gendered and sexualized violence against women.

To close the recollection, the author skillfully reminds us of the Frey-Stark vengeance dynamic that resulted in the Red Wedding (another atrocity, and multiple/mass slaughter, with the breaking of sacred social contract—guest right and high treason in the Frey case, guest right and high treasons in the Lannister case) to highlight for the reader the nature of the Tywin Lannister—Elia Martell dynamic. Catelyn Tully Stark is then stood as stark parallel to Elia Martell in this scenario—another woman who need not have been harmed, but was gruesomely treated nevertheless.

"Perhaps something went awry," Tywin says of Catelyn's treatment at the Twins by the Freys; what went awry in the Red Keep during the Sack? Did Tywin look Elia Martell in the eye and feel humiliated by her yet again (for marrying Rhaegar, the crowned prince who he'd presumed to "set aside" for his own daughter, and providing him heirs when first Elia Martell had been decided "unworthy" of his son, Jaime Lannister (she upgraded), and second Cersei Lannister had been found "unworthy" of the crowned prince Elia later married (with Cersei, no more than the daughter of the help in Aerys's eyes, forced to downgrade from Rhaegar to Robert Baratheon) to Tywin's great shame), and, "his blood" now "up" with those feelings of shame and rage, decide to take his insecurities out on her and thus have his vengeance?

To close the passage, Tywin attempts to shift blame to Walder Frey for the Red Wedding, just as he attempts to do so for the rape and murder of Elia Martell… However, Tyrion is not convinced. Should the reader be so convinced of Tywin's personal distance from the rape and murder of Elia Martell, then? He too is a "peevish old man who lives to… brood over all the slights he's suffered," and he has "hatched" many an "ugly chicken" in his quest for revenge before, relishing in it as much as Frey relished the Red Wedding, most especially when it concerns "slights" he perceives from women, and it is hard to believe he felt no need to vent his wrath upon Elia Martell Targaryen when previously he enjoyed hurting Lady Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck, Lord Tytos's mistress, Tysha the crofter's daughter (his own son's wife!)… and likely many others of which we know nothing. His obsession with the pride of House Lannister and the ways women "shame" it (and him in particular) has only escalated, and his gendered violence with it.

Note that despite his claims that Tywin feared for Jaime's life, there is no mention made anywhere that they met up (remember, Jaime was not hard to find, and Lannister forces knew where he was) so Tywin might check in on him. Something more pressing than that must have been on Tywin's mind, then.

 

And it is possible that Oberyn and Doran Martell know more of the goings-on in the Red Keep during the Sack of King's Landing than Tywin Lannister realizes:

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"Are you hungry, my prince?"

"I have hungered for a long time. Though not for food. Pray tell me, when will the justice be served?"

"Justice." Yes, that is why he's here, I should have seen that at once. "You were close to your sister?"

"As children Elia and I were inseparable, much like your own brother and sister."

Gods, I hope not. "Wars and weddings have kept us well occupied, Prince Oberyn. I fear no one has yet had the time to look into murders sixteen years stale, dreadful as they were. We shall, of course, just as soon as we may. Any help that Dorne might be able to provide to restore the king's peace would only hasten the beginning of my lord father's inquiry—"

"Dwarf," said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, "spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer's show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane… but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that." He smiled. "An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?"

"No," Tyrion admitted warily.

"Why, if the gods were cruel, they would have made me my mother's firstborn, and Doran her third. I am a bloodthirsty man, you see. And it is me you must contend with now, not my patient, prudent, and gouty brother."

The next mention of Tywin Lannister is after the Sack of King's Landing:

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Kevan Lannister had been here in this very hall, when Tywin had laid the bodied of Prince Rhaegar's children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy... a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word.

This is the presentation of the murdered Princess Elia Martell Targaryen and her children, Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon VI Targaryen to the new king, Robert Baratheon. Others, such as Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn are said to be present at this time.

Note, the Lannister red cloaks are not only to "[cleverly]" "[hide] the blood" as Ned Stark once supposed, but also to claim possession of the murdered woman and children (the foes a coward like Tywin Lannister is most comfortable confronting), so there can be no denial (and perhaps even deliberately creating a long-lasting symbol of Lannister dominance) that he had his vengeance, that he "won." The reliance upon Gregor Clegane to carry out these crimes is only further insult, that Tywin essentially "tricked" Rhaegar into knighting the man who'd soon rape and slaughter his loved ones.

Tywin Lannister seemed to have been convinced that this babe was Prince Aegon. He understood as well that Robert's throne would never be secure so long as Rhaegar's heirs--and Prince Aegon especially--survived the Sack of King's Landing, so it seems practical that he would take an especial interest in identifying Rhaegar's heirs before he murdered them. If he was in the nursery with Elia when she was raped and murdered, no doubt when Gregor Clegane first tore her babe from her breast he was presented (if briefly) to Lord Tywin Lannister, his liege lord, before Clegane dashed his head against the wall. To be clear, I do not think Tywin was pleased with Clegane's method in the murder of Prince Aegon, as it left his corpse unidentifiable.

 

Let's return to that first quote from Varys, keeping this information in mind. Something curious happens to the dialogue, now.

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"You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear calling the raven black? Or would you sooner not hear what I've proposed to Doran Martell?"

Varys giggled. "Perhaps my little birds have told me."

"Have they, indeed?" He wanted to hear this. "Go on."

"The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him."

"All this is obvious," said Tyrion.

"The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe."

"My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition… and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black."

"A council seat is not to be despised," Varys admitted, "yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister's murder?"

"Why forget?" Tyrion smiled. "I've promised to deliver his sister's killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure."

Varys gave him a shrewd look. "My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a… certain name… when they came for her."

"Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?" In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son's blood and brains still on his hands.

"This secret is your lord father's sworn man."

"My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog."

Varys stroked a powdered cheek. "And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed…"

"Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end."

"Robert was not at King's Landing."

"Neither was Doran Martell."

"So. Blood for his pride, a chair for his ambition. Gold and land, that goes without saying. A sweet offer… yet sweets can be poisoned. If I were the prince, something more would I require before I should reach for the honeycomb. Some token of good faith, some sure safeguard against betrayal." Varys smiled his slimiest smile. "Which one will you give him, I wonder?"

Tyrion sighed. "You know, don't you?"

"Since you put it that way—yes. Tommen. You could scarcely offer Myrcella to Doran Martell and Lysa Arryn both."

"Remind me never to play these guessing games with you again. You cheat."

…

"…Prince Doran will hardly be insensible of the great honor you do him. Very deftly done, I would say… but for one small flaw."

The dwarf laughed. "Named Cersei?"

"What avails statecraft against the love of a mother for the sweet fruit of her womb? Perhaps, for the glory of her House and the safety of the realm, the queen might be persuaded to send away Tommen or Myrcella. But both of them? Surely not."

The conversation now reads differently, thus:

Tyrion: DECLARATION, promise of justice to House Martell

Varys: HINT, all is not as it seems; PROBING, for information as to Tyrion's understanding of his promise and/or willingness to follow through

Tyrion: ASSUMPTION, drives conversation away from hint

Varys: HINT, maintaining assumption; PROBING, for information, same

Tyrion: ASSUMPTION, drives conversation away from hint

Varys: FINAL HINT AND WARNING OF FLAWED PREMISE

Tyrion: ASSUMPTION, drives conversation away from hint

Varys: DISCUSSION BASED UPON FLAWED PREMISE; PROBES SATISFIED

To take one final look at the conversation, and see how it follows this format:

Quote

 

"You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear calling the raven black? Or would you sooner not hear what I've proposed to Doran Martell?"

Varys giggled. "Perhaps my little birds have told me."

"Have they, indeed?" He wanted to hear this. "Go on."

"The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him."

"All this is obvious," said Tyrion.

"The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe."

"My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition… and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black."

"A council seat is not to be despised," Varys admitted, "yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister's murder?"

"Why forget?" Tyrion smiled. "I've promised to deliver his sister's killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure."

Varys gave him a shrewd look. "My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a… certain name… when they came for her."

"Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?" In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son's blood and brains still on his hands.

"This secret is your lord father's sworn man."

"My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog."

Varys stroked a powdered cheek. "And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed…"

"Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end."

"Robert was not at King's Landing."

"Neither was Doran Martell."

"So. Blood for his pride, a chair for his ambition. Gold and land, that goes without saying. A sweet offer… yet sweets can be poisoned. If I were the prince, something more would I require before I should reach for the honeycomb. Some token of good faith, some sure safeguard against betrayal." Varys smiled his slimiest smile. "Which one will you give him, I wonder?"

Tyrion sighed. "You know, don't you?"

"Since you put it that way—yes. Tommen. You could scarcely offer Myrcella to Doran Martell and Lysa Arryn both."

"Remind me never to play these guessing games with you again. You cheat."

…

"…Prince Doran will hardly be insensible of the great honor you do him. Very deftly done, I would say… but for one small flaw."

The dwarf laughed. "Named Cersei?"

"What avails statecraft against the love of a mother for the sweet fruit of her womb? Perhaps, for the glory of her House and the safety of the realm, the queen might be persuaded to send away Tommen or Myrcella. But both of them? Surely not."

 

When Tyrion proclaims his intentions to Varys, Varys subtly hints that he may have unwittingly promised the Martells far more than he can deliver (or may even want to deliver). Blind to the innuendo, Tyrion drives the conversation toward the most obvious answer (Clegane). "This secret" is Tywin Lannister's sworn sword, pledged to carry out his bidding, Varys reminds Tyrion, hinting at other secrets--1. it was Tywin's bidding that was carried out during the Sack, and 2. Tywin was even present to oversee the slaughter, and thus his was the name Elia was liklier to know and cry out.

Tyrion does not take the hint, still presuming he can buy off the Martells with less than was truly offered (Clegane only), and even be rewarded (Dornish spears) for the dispensation of long-overdue justice, done at half-measure. Varys is more direct in his next hint and probe, naming Tywin almost directly. Tyrion answers with another half-measure: Robert Baratheon. Yet Baratheon was not even present, Varys reminds Tyrion, hinting that Tywin Lannister was present to give the order. When Tyrion deflects yet again, Varys drops the topic.

The passage closes with Varys giving Tyrion one final warning: statecraft will not avail him against the love the Martells bore Elia and her children. They will not accept half-measures, nor reward the Lannisters for finally acknowledging their wrongdoing and offering justice.

TL;DR: Tywin was a present and active party during the atrocities in the Red Keep during the Sack. He raped and murdered Elia Martell, which was the culmination of a lifelong, need-based pattern of gendered grudges and sexualized violence. The pattern takes form with Lady Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck during the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion, and escalates from psychological trauma infliction only (Tytos's Mistress) to psychological and physical trauma infliction, non-fatal (Tysha) to psychological and physical trauma infliction, fatal (Elia Martell). His younger brother, Kevan Lannister, continues the pattern of normalized gendered violence with Cersei, his own niece. Varys hints to Tyrion of Tywin's involvement in the Red Keep atrocities during the Sack. This accounts for Tywin's "missing time" during the Sack. Elia Martell cried out Tywin's name when they intruded upon the nursery, not Gregor Clegane's, who was still a seventeen-year-old nobody who gained his fame from this incident and not before (despite what quiet rumors might have drawn Tywin's attention in the first place), such that Rhaegar felt comfortable knighting him as a favor to Tywin Lannister. Tywin used Clegane as one final insult to Rhaegar and his family, that he knighted the man who did such things to his loved ones.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

Firstly (and I know this isn't the true topic, but I feel it needs to be said) I really don't think that Kevan forced Cersei into the Walk because of the slights he had suffered at her hands. He felt that it needed to be done for Cersei's safety, among other reasons. He certainly didn't seem to find any pleasure in the act, which I feel he would if he was being spiteful about it.

Secondly, I don't think Tywin was even inside Kings Landing during the sack. He's the sort of leader who leads from the back.

"His lord father took his place on the hill where he had slept. Around him, the reserve assembled; a huge force, half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord Tywin almost always chose to command the reserve; he would take the high ground and watch the battle unfold below him, committing his forces when and where they were needed most." Tyrion VIII, AGoT

Tywin Lannister doesn't strike me as the sort to get his hands dirty himself, and I actually believe what he told Tyrion about Elia Martell, and that he didn't know quite how bestial Gregor Clegane could be. As you've said yourself, Ser Gregor's fearsome reputation does seem to stem mostly from his actions during the sack.

In addition, I'm not sure that Tywin was even all that bitter when it came to the topic of Elia Martell. Why would he feel slighted by her? The slight was from Aerys, not Elia. He has no real reason to be angry with her, unlike all of the other women.

So, I don't think that Lord Tywin was at Maegor's Holdfast when Elia and her children were killed, but more than that, I don't truly see Tywin as having any "gendered grudge" as you call it. For instance, with Ellyn Rayne, he was just as brutal with her as he was with the rest of the Raynes and Tarbecks. And yes, he smiled when she died, and why not; the moment Tarbeck Hall came down on Ellyn Rayne, the rebellion was over, and he had won. If ever there is a time to smile, it is at your first major victory, no? Besides, this was long before the death of Joanna, when the joy left him. He smiled, sometimes, surely.

So sure, he was brutal to his father's mistress; she was one of the major reasons House Lannister had become such a laughingstock. Then, he was brutal to Tysha. Tysha was a stark reminder to Tywin of his father's mistress; it was possible that Tyrion would eventually inherit Casterly Rock. With Tysha by Tyrion's side, the Lannister name would have almost certainly reverted back to what it was under Tytos' rule, undoing all of Lord Tywin's life's work. These two people completely threatened the Lannister legacy. With Ellyn Tarbeck, he was dealing with a rebellion; Elia Martell was the work of Gregor Clegane. Other than that, I see in no way that Tywin Lannister is overly brutal to women in particular.

Also, just as an aside, I'm not sure that the "crying a certain name" thing is meant completely literally. You, uh, "cry" your "lovers" name. And she was raped by Gregor. I think that is what Varys is referring to, nothing more. Besides, "this secret is your lord father's sworn man," is referring to Gregor. Or, at the very least, is not referring to Tywin himself, as (obviously) Tywin is not his own sworn man (as that makes no sense). And the "secret" to which Varys is referring is the "crying a certain name". At least, that's how I took the conversation, both before and after I had read your post.

So, it's certainly an interesting read, but I must say, I disagree with all of it. (You also have a copy of a section of six paragraphs in your post. The first begins with "Lots of good stuff in there." and the sixth's begins with "To close the passage". The first time you have these paragraphs, you then go on to talk about the sack. A bit later, the same paragraphs are presented again. It doesn't change what you're saying, but I thought I'd let you know.)

[MacrosTheBlack]

I don't remember where but I'm sure that it specifically states that Gregor and Amory are the only ones to scale Maegor's holdfast. Also, holy shit the new book needs to come out. I mean, good lord in heaven. Really?

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Of course he smiled when Elyn died. She, not her ineffectual husband or more powerful brother, was the true threat to House Lannister and their rule in the Westerlands. The fact that Tywin (and Kevan and Genna) saw her as the leader of the rival faction is actually a mark of respect in a pretty misogynistic world. Tywin did not pick on her because of her gender but because she refused to surrender and instigated the troubles. She is pretty much the female Tywin in the serioes and even Genna calls her a bitch.

 

Regarding Tytos' mistress I'd like to know more about Westeros' use of the Walk of Shame. It seems to me that Tywin did not invent this punishment so knowing how common they are would be helpful to the reader. Once again we get Tywin's siblings backing up that she was deserving of this punishment. She seemed to overstep her position ruling for Tytos and ordering vassals about while taking his dead wife's possessions. Now I don't really think she did anything wrong, though a more intelligent paramour would have recognized that Tytos was not going to live forever, but her punishment was more due to her status as a commoner rather than being a woman. Somehow I doubt a Crakehall mistress would have suffered the same fate.

 

What Tywin did to Tysha was reprehensible but not really down to her gender but social rank. Had Cersei ran off and married some homeless peasant then that dude would have been killed. Had Tyrion ran off with a noble and married in secret it may still have been annulled (depending if Tywin thought Tyrion could do better) but the gangrape would never have happened.  Tywin is an elitist in an elitist world. He take it very seriously as he saw his father allowing a commoner to rule helped make his House a laughing stock.

 

By all accounts it was Joanna who ruled Casterly Rock and their relationship seems to be more of a partnership than a wife merely doing as she was bid. Tywin raised Cersei to rule and she, not Jaime, seemed to be responsible for maintaining Lannister interests in Kings Landing and was clearly doing a pretty successful job at it. It was only when Ned was executed did he feel the need to send Tyrion to Kings Landing to take over.

 

 

[Ygrain]

An interesting idea, and not implausible. I never believed for a single instant that Tywin forgot to adress what was to be done with Elia; if anything, he might have intentionally "forgotten" to give an express order that she was not to be harmed, knowing all too well what Gregor would do. And I have also wondered whose name it was that Elia cried - it is possible that Rhaegar mentioned to her knighting an exceptionally tall and capable guy in service of the Lannisters and she might have remembered, but somehow, I don't think that her crying the name of Gregor Clegane has any narrative significance.

However, I don't see Tywin being anywhere in the first lines, either. Definitely not risking his mighty Lannister ass scaling some walls; perhaps sending Clegane and Lorch ahead to secure Rhaegar's family until his arrival, yes. But then: would Tywin in his pride really make his own hands dirty when the rape and murder by proxy works just fine here and still fits the escalation pattern? And also: would Tywin really succumb to satisfying his vengefulness at such a crucial moment? (though, it would certainly contribute to his misogyny if teaching a lesson to Elia actually cost him the crown that could have been handed over to him on a golden platter.) Somehow, I don't see this.

Also, there is another possibility: that Varys, with his habit of hinting at a completely different person that the PoV character thinks ("a boy who owed Jon Arryn everything") was only steering the conversation towards Tyrion himself supplying the name of Gregor, and Elia, in fact, cried a name of someone dear to her, as people in mortal fear sometimes do.

[TheSeason]

Just some remarks in general before getting into individual responses (and pardon my typing, I've just had surgery, so it's very sloppy):

It appears there is a misunderstanding of the meaning of "gendered grudge," so I'd like to elaborate. I am not saying Tywin is more brutal to women than to men, but that 1. his brutality to women tends to be sexualized degradation and violence, thus the "gendering" of his grudges and revenge against them, and 2. he feels especial satisfaction (that he either does not understand or acknowledge, denies outright, or normalizes to diminish the gravity of these urges) that he does not feel when seeking vengeance against men (thus it is a "need-based pattern of behavior).

Certainly Tywin feels satisfaction at enacting his vengeance upon men, but it is not the same kind of satisfaction (or we would see the same sort of behavioral patterns and clear escalation with them).

Also, yes, Tywin is a misogynist not only an elitist, but sometimes these feelings are tangled together and very complex (Tytos's Mistress and Tysha, for example). He is a through-and-through chauvinist. The only equals he appears to have sought out were House Targaryen (Aerys, Rhaegar)--who were actually his betters. The difference between House Martell (Elia and Oberyn were fantastic matches for his children, and in fact were his social betters, too; he rejected them because he could not stand that fact) and House Targaryen is the apotheosis of House Targaryen, and the cult of personality built up around "the dragonkings and dragonlords." Aerys not only insulted Tywin, his House and legacy when rejecting Cersei, he also doubled-down on that insult and injury with the selection of Elia Martell for Rhaegar (who was "the dragon amongst dragons" so to speak), by reminding Tywin that Elia and her House in fact were his betters (royalty in their own right, not grasping, social-climbing nobility--that is, what Tywin so hated about Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck was a quality he shared with her and most likely despised in himself, thus the obsession with his "legacy.").

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Firstly (and I know this isn't the true topic, but I feel it needs to be said) I really don't think that Kevan forced Cersei into the Walk because of the slights he had suffered at her hands. He felt that it needed to be done for Cersei's safety, among other reasons. He certainly didn't seem to find any pleasure in the act, which I feel he would if he was being spiteful about it.

Fair enough. We disagree there, because I see no evidence that this was Kevan's reasoning for giving the High Sparrow the idea. Nor can I accept that this foul treatment could ever be "for [a woman's] safety." It is only harmful. There is no upside to it, nor worth in it.

What "other reasons" do you mean, though?

I agree that Kevan, unlike Tywin took no pleasure from this. Perhaps he expected he would, having Tywin for an example, and was horrified by what he'd done and confused that Tywin's tactics had somehow "failed" him. Thus, all the guilt he tries to deny.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Secondly, I don't think Tywin was even inside Kings Landing during the sack. He's the sort of leader who leads from the back.

"His lord father took his place on the hill where he had slept. Around him, the reserve assembled; a huge force, half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord Tywin almost always chose to command the reserve; he would take the high ground and watch the battle unfold below him, committing his forces when and where they were needed most." Tyrion VIII, AGoT

Tywin Lannister doesn't strike me as the sort to get his hands dirty himself, and I actually believe what he told Tyrion about Elia Martell, and that he didn't know quite how bestial Gregor Clegane could be. As you've said yourself, Ser Gregor's fearsome reputation does seem to stem mostly from his actions during the sack.

But what was there to "lead" and oversee? It was a sack, the city fallen by treachery, not by battle. It was mass looting, rape, and murder... purely for the "joy" of it. The only events of worth to oversee were happening in the Red Keep--the murder of Aerys (Jaime took care of that, with Lannister forces to witness the end of it, so the Red Keep was breached and Elia had retreated to Maegor's Holdfast) and of Rhaenys and Aegon (Gregor and Amory scaled the Holdfast, likely amongst their garrison, so as to breach it. Once it was breached, any rebel could stroll right in, safely.).

The single most important event was the declaration of the new king (and it could have been Tywin himself!) but Ned was there for it (he came to claim the kingdom, according Jaime, and was the first to do so) well after the city was fallen and sacked, with Lannister colors flying the ramparts (according to Ned), so where was Tywin? Sitting pretty in a tent outside the city entirely as one empire falls and a new one arises, missing the biggest opportunity of his life (that precious legacy again; even Pycelle thought Tywin a viable option) for no reason at all?

Tywin isn't the sort to get his hands dirty, I agree, but he's already been said to stand witness to the savageries he commands (Tysha). I believe Tysha was the first instance of this need to bear witness, an escalation of the urges that came before (I think Kevan got the idea to "stand apart" from Cersei from Tywin's fortnight-long assault of Tytos's Mistress). Once an escalation of behavior happens, however, it doesn't "unhappen," so it becomes part of the need he feels (thus he would have to bear witness to Elia's brutalization). Decompensation is not the same as deescalation.

As for Clegane, why do you believe he was "worthy" of a royal dubbing, if not as political favor to Tywin? Do you believe Tywin never heard any rumors about Clegane, and sought him out to be one of his "beasts" of war, to inspire terror to his (Tywin's) foes? Looking forward to your answers. Clegane has been something of a sticking point for me.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

In addition, I'm not sure that Tywin was even all that bitter when it came to the topic of Elia Martell. Why would he feel slighted by her? The slight was from Aerys, not Elia. He has no real reason to be angry with her, unlike all of the other women.

I speak to this under my general remarks. Elia and her children personify Aerys's insult and rejection of Lannister stock as unworthy and beneath royalty (sub-standard breed) whereas his choice of Elia reminds Tywin and reinforces that the Martells--being royalty in their own right--really are his betters, and that the matches he rejected for his own children were "marrying beneath" for the Martells (done for love of Joanna, and not because her children were truly worthy of the honor).

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

So, I don't think that Lord Tywin was at Maegor's Holdfast when Elia and her children were killed, but more than that, I don't truly see Tywin as having any "gendered grudge" as you call it. For instance, with Ellyn Rayne, he was just as brutal with her as he was with the rest of the Raynes and Tarbecks. And yes, he smiled when she died, and why not; the moment Tarbeck Hall came down on Ellyn Rayne, the rebellion was over, and he had won. If ever there is a time to smile, it is at your first major victory, no? Besides, this was long before the death of Joanna, when the joy left him. He smiled, sometimes, surely.

So sure, he was brutal to his father's mistress; she was one of the major reasons House Lannister had become such a laughingstock. Then, he was brutal to Tysha. Tysha was a stark reminder to Tywin of his father's mistress; it was possible that Tyrion would eventually inherit Casterly Rock. With Tysha by Tyrion's side, the Lannister name would have almost certainly reverted back to what it was under Tytos' rule, undoing all of Lord Tywin's life's work. These two people completely threatened the Lannister legacy. With Ellyn Tarbeck, he was dealing with a rebellion; Elia Martell was the work of Gregor Clegane. Other than that, I see in no way that Tywin Lannister is overly brutal to women in particular.

Tywin normalized his behavior and his younger siblings, who thought he could do no wrong, ate it up. The reader shouldn't normalize this behavior, though. No one "deserves" to be treated like that. And the "punishments" are always disproportionate to the "crime" (bruising Tywin's ego). Also notice that it is always "the woman's fault" for the poor choices men make... some uppity, grasping, whorish woman always "seduces" the man into his plight and must be punished for her scheming (even in your answer you imply such a dynamic in his thoughts) as an example to other "low" women like her, who might get ideas, seduce her betters, and forget her place. The women are the threat simply by their womanhood (and sexuality), and the men they seduce out of their good sense are all the victims of their womanly wiles. This is the Madonna-Whore Complex at work.

I spoke of what "gendered grudge" means above, so please refer there.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Also, just as an aside, I'm not sure that the "crying a certain name" thing is meant completely literally. You, uh, "cry" your "lovers" name.

Elia was raped (most likely by a man she didn't know, or are you arguing that she knew him on sight) and a rapist is not a "lover" whose name a survivor would "cry" out, so I'm uncertain what you mean here.

We disagree, however, about how Varys meant this statement, but I do see how you reached your conclusion, and it is a fair point. I cannot refute it without more information about that day (the sack).

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

And she was raped by Gregor. I think that is what Varys is referring to, nothing more. Besides, "this secret is your lord father's sworn man," is referring to Gregor. Or, at the very least, is not referring to Tywin himself, as (obviously) Tywin is not his own sworn man (as that makes no sense). And the "secret" to which Varys is referring is the "crying a certain name". At least, that's how I took the conversation, both before and after I had read your post.

 Seems I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting that Tywin was "the sworn man" but that two conversations are taking place at once (one about Gregor and one about Tywin) on two levels (one in-narrative for character and reader both, one authorial commentary for solely the reader; Martin does this quite a lot). Both conversations can be read straight, without overlap, as well as read together, with overlap.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

So, it's certainly an interesting read, but I must say, I disagree with all of it. (You also have a copy of a section of six paragraphs in your post. The first begins with "Lots of good stuff in there." and the sixth's begins with "To close the passage". The first time you have these paragraphs, you then go on to talk about the sack. A bit later, the same paragraphs are presented again. It doesn't change what you're saying, but I thought I'd let you know.)

Thank you for contributing to the discussion. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on the matter.

And thanks for letting me know about the duplicate. I thought I'd deleted the first one. My typing is terrible lately because I'm in surgical recovery (typing with one hand, sometimes one finger, lol!)

6 hours ago, MacrosTheBlack said:

I don't remember where but I'm sure that it specifically states that Gregor and Amory are the only ones to scale Maegor's holdfast. Also, holy shit the new book needs to come out. I mean, good lord in heaven. Really?

 

Do you have anything to add to the discussion besides your condescension? Because that is not wanted here.

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Of course he smiled when Elyn died. She, not her ineffectual husband or more powerful brother, was the true threat to House Lannister and their rule in the Westerlands. The fact that Tywin (and Kevan and Genna) saw her as the leader of the rival faction is actually a mark of respect in a pretty misogynistic world. Tywin did not pick on her because of her gender but because she refused to surrender and instigated the troubles. She is pretty much the female Tywin in the serioes and even Genna calls her a bitch.

I too see similarities between Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck and Tywin.

However, I see no "mark of respect" toward her, only rank misogyny. I never said that Tywin "picked on her because of her gender" either. I discuss a little more above about what the phrase "gendered grudge" actually means. It's much more complex than a man "picking" on women because they're women, which is reprehensible in itself.

That Tywin's youger siblings (who idolize him, mind) accept his normalization of his bad behavior isn't an indicator that they (or Tywin) are in any way in the right. In fact, I think Kevan Lannister is a clear statement of just how abnormal Tywin's behavior was. The moment Kevan tried to emulate it (Cersei's "Walk of Atonement"), he was wracked with guilt and shocked by just how devastating it was to Cersei's psyche. His chapter in Dance is filled with evidence of the wrongness and unhealthiness not only of the acts themselves, but also of their lingering effects (even upon the more-or-less "healthy" mentality of the perpetrator--Kevan--to stand in stark contrast to Tywin's unhealthy urges and feelings.).

All of it begins with Lady Tarbeck, she being the codifier of this need-based pattern of behavior, but also outside of the pattern, being the code. I want to be clear that she is not a part of the need-based pattern, but her treatment is the formulation of it. That is, she defines the need-based pattern. She was the first victim, and her treatment was spontaneous. Victimology then follows from her because Tywin enjoyed this action so much.

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

Regarding Tytos' mistress I'd like to know more about Westeros' use of the Walk of Shame. It seems to me that Tywin did not invent this punishment so knowing how common they are would be helpful to the reader.

Curious. I got the opposite impression--that it was Tywin's big bright idea (a punishment tailor made for his father's paramour), and that Kevan stepped into big brother's shoes, offering the idea to the High Sparrow, who jumped at the chance. Was there something in particular that gave you the impression this was common practice?

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Once again we get Tywin's siblings backing up that she was deserving of this punishment. She seemed to overstep her position ruling for Tytos and ordering vassals about while taking his dead wife's possessions. Now I don't really think she did anything wrong, though a more intelligent paramour would have recognized that Tytos was not going to live forever, but her punishment was more due to her status as a commoner rather than being a woman. Somehow I doubt a Crakehall mistress would have suffered the same fate.

We agree that Tywin is an elitist, but I think these feelings are much more complex, sometimes overlapping. (See above.) Tywin is a coward who only feels comfortable in confrontation with the most vulnerable members of society (women, children, commoners, etc., those who cannot fight back.).

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

What Tywin did to Tysha was reprehensible but not really down to her gender but social rank. Had Cersei ran off and married some homeless peasant then that dude would have been killed.

Interesting that you say so. I agree, actually. Such a scenario would have engendered a very different response from Tywin (quiet, efficient, not sexualized). It is because Tysha is a woman who challenged (indirectly) his legacy and bruised his ego that Tywin reacts the way he does. He cannot control this urge, it must be satisfied. Tysha hit all of his triggers, so he obeyed his urge and escalated his need-based pattern of behavior.

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Had Tyrion ran off with a noble and married in secret it may still have been annulled (depending if Tywin thought Tyrion could do better) but the gangrape would never have happened.  Tywin is an elitist in an elitist world. He take it very seriously as he saw his father allowing a commoner to rule helped make his House a laughing stock.

 

By all accounts it was Joanna who ruled Casterly Rock and their relationship seems to be more of a partnership than a wife merely doing as she was bid. Tywin raised Cersei to rule and she, not Jaime, seemed to be responsible for maintaining Lannister interests in Kings Landing and was clearly doing a pretty successful job at it. It was only when Ned was executed did he feel the need to send Tyrion to Kings Landing to take over.

 

 

Joanna is the Madonna (along with his own mother) in the Madonna-Whore Complex he suffers from. On the surface, it may seem like treated her with respect and love, as her own person, but it is in fact just as detrimental to women and womanhood to be forced to fill "the Madonna" role. Some things like Jaime's dream of Joanna and the rejection of the Martell suitors hint at this, but it is not yet as fully developed a theme.

Cersei is a failed Madonna, becoming the Whore, which also elaborates upon concept and theme.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts and appreciate your contributions. I hope to hear more from you. Tywin is a complex character, and there's so much to discuss regarding his relationships with women, his normalization of gendered violence, and how it all affects the next generation.

[norwaywolf123]

 

3 minutes ago, TheSeason said:

As for Clegane, why do you believe he was "worthy" of a royal dubbing, if not as political favor to Tywin? Do you believe Tywin never heard any rumors about Clegane, and sought him out to be one of his "beasts" of war, to inspire terror to his (Tywin's) foes? Looking forward to your answers. Clegane has been something of a sticking point for me.

Clegane was knighted by Rhaegar infront of Elia on Tywin's request or atleest i believe it was Tywin who made Rhaegar knight Gregor.

3 minutes ago, TheSeason said:

I speak to this under my general remarks. Elia and her children personify Aerys's insult and rejection of Lannister stock as unworthy and beneath royalty (sub-standard breed) whereas his choice of Elia reminds Tywin and reinforces that the Martells--being royalty in their own right--really are his betters, and that the matches he rejected for his own children were "marrying beneath" for the Martells (done for love of Joanna, and not because her children were truly worthy of the honor).

How are House Martell better than Lannisters? They have less population, army, wealth, water, food! If anything House Lannister is the betters of House Martell.

my opinion standing of houses before roberts rebbelion: Targaryen>Lannister>Tyrell>Arryn>Stark>Baratheon>Tully>Greyjoy>Martell

[TheSeason]

51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

An interesting idea, and not implausible. I never believed for a single instant that Tywin forgot to adress what was to be done with Elia; if anything, he might have intentionally "forgotten" to give an express order that she was not to be harmed, knowing all too well what Gregor would do. And I have also wondered whose name it was that Elia cried - it is possible that Rhaegar mentioned to her knighting an exceptionally tall and capable guy in service of the Lannisters and she might have remembered, but somehow, I don't think that her crying the name of Gregor Clegane has any narrative significance.

That's exactly what I thought happened at first, that Tywin deliberately "forgot" about Elia, knowing what would happen. It was on another thread where I saw the quote again that it stuck out and the full idea took form.

I agree that crying Gregor Clegane's name makes no narrative sense (it never did, as it lacks both suspense and payoff; every good writer is a mystery writer in some sense). It was upon rereading that first quote that it made no logical sense, either.

I don't think Elia knew Clegane or even of him in any significant way. So, if she's crying out a name we have two options: loved one or attacker.

51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

However, I don't see Tywin being anywhere in the first lines, either. Definitely not risking his mighty Lannister ass scaling some walls; perhaps sending Clegane and Lorch ahead to secure Rhaegar's family until his arrival, yes. But then: would Tywin in his pride really make his own hands dirty when the rape and murder by proxy works just fine here and still fits the escalation pattern? And also: would Tywin really succumb to satisfying his vengefulness at such a crucial moment? (though, it would certainly contribute to his misogyny if teaching a lesson to Elia actually cost him the crown that could have been handed over to him on a golden platter.) Somehow, I don't see this.

Lol! I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm not arguing Tywin scaled the keep himself. I'm arguing that Clegane, Lorch, and their garrisons did it to breach the keep. They then threw open the doors to Tywin and his honor guard when it was secured in Lannister possession, so Tywin could oversee the brutality in the nursery. He still uses proxies here, but watches (as he bore witness to Tysha's gang-rape, orchestrating it).

And indeed I am also arguing that Tywin lost out on his chance to claim the throne because his need was so strong. What Tyrion says to Varys, about how his father says wise men don't let sentiment get in the way of ambition... is ironic in this light. Tywin did let sentiment (hatred, need for vengeance, gendered grudge needs) get in the way of his ambition on that day. It is a crucial authorial punishment, a meta-textual argument that the bad guys don't win, even when at first it looks like they do.

I don't think Tywin is the coldly, perfectly rational person he wants people to believe he is. He's extremely petty and insecure, with a disproportionate vengeance in mind for those who trigger his feelings of inadequacy. Those people are women.

51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Also, there is another possibility: that Varys, with his habit of hinting at a completely different person that the PoV character thinks ("a boy who owed Jon Arryn everything") was only steering the conversation towards Tyrion himself supplying the name of Gregor, and Elia, in fact, cried a name of someone dear to her, as people in mortal fear sometimes do.

A perfectly plausible explanation! I do like the narrative symmetry of this being an inverse example. That is, Rhaegar cries Lyanna's name on the Trident (someone he loved?) and Elia identifies her raper and killer.

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

 

Clegane was knighted by Rhaegar infront of Elia on Tywin's request or atleest i believe it was Tywin who made Rhaegar knight Gregor.

How are House Martell better than Lannisters? They have less population, army, wealth, water, food! If anything House Lannister is the betters of House Martell.

my opinion standing of houses before roberts rebbelion: Targaryen>Lannister>Tyrell>Arryn>Stark>Baratheon>Tully>Greyjoy>Martell

How are the Lannisters better than the Martells? 

They have equal standing in Westeros though the Martells are Princes and Princesses while the Lannisters are Lords and Ladies. 

The Targs also thought the Martells are better having married into their house multiple times while never marrying a Lannister(thank the gods!!) 

[aryagonnakill#2]

When Varys says "this secret is a lord of your father" he is clearly expressing that he believes she said Gregor Clegane.

[Pies are coming]

23 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

When Varys says "this secret is a lord of your father" he is clearly expressing that he believes she said Gregor Clegane.

It seems so. Ultimately, it may just be figuratively. Elia might have not screamed any name at all and they are talking in metaphors. However, Tywin is too reluctant to hand over the Mountain. It may very well be because, under torture, Gregor can confess that Tywin ordered him to do so. But, even if Tywin didn't order it (unlikely, but let's play with it), under sufficient torture, Gregor would say that because that's what the Dornish want to hear.

But what if he confesses it wasn't him, but Tywin? Tyrion is right all along - the Mountain is a cheap price for Dorne.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

 

Tywin normalized his behavior and his younger siblings, who thought he could do no wrong, ate it up.

But they did. Both siblings acknowledge he could do wrong.

"How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became . . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." -Genna

"Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna's? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he's had to be." -Kevan

Both siblings thought he could do wrong, as could Gerion and Tygett. Neither see anything particularly wrong with what he did to their fathers paramour not because she was a woman but that she overstepped and abused her position.

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

However, I see no "mark of respect" toward her, only rank misogyny.

You are going to have to explain this one. What exactly was rank misogyny about it? He gave her a chance to surrender and she refused.

I can undertstand how the claims can be made about Tysha and Tytos' mistress, I disagree with them but there is an easy argument to make, but how exactly was his treatment of Ellyn 'rank misogyny'?

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

I never said that Tywin "picked on her because of her gender" either. I discuss a little more above about what the phrase "gendered grudge" actually means. It's much more complex than a man "picking" on women because they're women, which is reprehensible in itself.

He didnt pick on her, she was a legitimate threat to the power of his House. You actually do her a huge disservice by making out she was picked on. She was the leader of the Reyne/Tarbeck faction, she was making the calls. Her positon as its leader is hugely impressive and she was every bit his equal.

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

 

That Tywin's youger siblings (who idolize him, mind)

But they don't. They certainly see his positives but also recognize his negatives.

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

 

In fact, I think Kevan Lannister is a clear statement of just how abnormal Tywin's behavior was. The moment Kevan tried to emulate it (Cersei's "Walk of Atonement"), he was wracked with guilt and shocked by just how devastating it was to Cersei's psyche.

Well yeah, she was his niece. Of course he would be wrecked with guilt over it.

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Curious. I got the opposite impression--that it was Tywin's big bright idea (a punishment tailor made for his father's paramour), and that Kevan stepped into big brother's shoes, offering the idea to the High Sparrow, who jumped at the chance. Was there something in particular that gave you the impression this was common practice?

Women don't get sent to the Wall, what do you think happens to major female criminals in this society?

Why would the High Sparrow and his fervent religious acolytes accepts some form of punishment that was not religious based? Why would it have its own name if it was only ever done once more than 3 decades ago in a different part of the realm a thousand miles away from Kings Landing. Everyone, from the Sparrow, the Septas to the people of Kings Landing seem too familiar with this custom for it only have ever happened once in the history of Westeros.

Then there is the reaction from Cersei

"I have confessed."

"Atoned, I said. Before the city. A walk—"

"No." She knew what her uncle was about to say, and she did not want to hear it. "Never. Tell him that, if you speak again. I am a queen, not some dockside whore."

 

She would have been a baby when it happened yet she quickly works out what her punishment is going to be.

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Tywin is a coward who only feels comfortable in confrontation with the most vulnerable members of society (women, children, commoners, etc., those who cannot fight back.).

Well this is silly. For starters he is one of the 5 or so most powerful people in his society. Pretty much everyone is vulnerable when compared to him even high ranking nobles. Roger Reyne was the second most powerful Lord in the Westerlands, when Tywin's uncle died it was Reyne who took over the 11k Westerland soldiers in  Essos.

The earliest memory of Tywin is him standing up to his father when no one else dared to, not any of the many Lords of the Westerlands in attendance

My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled.

And note that it is the 'misogynistic' Tywin who is the only one to stand up for his sister who he clearly thinks deserves better than being married off at 7 to a Frey.

And this would continue as he got older as his father allowed the Westerland Lords to do as they pleased rather than confront them. It was up to his son to keep them in line with no help from his father. The idea that he only confrtoned the weak is not backed up in him actually keeping the peace from a Westerland nobility who were using Tytos misrule to further subjugate their subjects such as Lord Stackspear who "doubled the taxes on his smallfolk, though Lord Tytos forbade it, then hired a company of Volantene sellswords to enforce his onerous exactions." It was Tywin who put an end to events like this and brought order to the Westerlands.

Tywin only confronting the weak is an obvious fallacy. Even in the present series when Tyrion is abducted he goes to war against Hoster, his equal. knowing full well that this could anger both the Hand of the King and the King himself.

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

He cannot control this urge, it must be satisfied. Tysha hit all of his triggers, so he obeyed his urge and escalated his need-based pattern of behavior.

lol his triggers?

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Joanna is the Madonna (along with his own mother) in the Madonna-Whore Complex he suffers from. On the surface, it may seem like treated her with respect and love, as her own person, but it is in fact just as detrimental to women and womanhood to be forced to fill "the Madonna" role.

How did Tywin treat Joanna any worse than any other Lord treats his wife in Westeros?

Serious question as you are trying to diagnose someone in a medieval society with modern day issues.

2 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Cersei is a failed Madonna, becoming the Whore, which also elaborates upon concept and theme.

You might have to expand on this and how it relates to Tywin the misogynist and how he is at fault for her being a failed Madonna.

[Minstral]

9 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

 

Clegane was knighted by Rhaegar infront of Elia on Tywin's request or atleest i believe it was Tywin who made Rhaegar knight Gregor.

How are House Martell better than Lannisters? They have less population, army, wealth, water, food! If anything House Lannister is the betters of House Martell.

my opinion standing of houses before roberts rebbelion: Targaryen>Lannister>Tyrell>Arryn>Stark>Baratheon>Tully>Greyjoy>Martell

As I recall there is not one signal mention that Gregor was knighted in front of Ellia...ever. The one time we get the mention of the event in the books is in the first book, only gives the details that he.

And the status as to whom are social betters in regards to medieval titles ans station have nothing to do with the power. The elected Doge of a Italian Republic would still be considered a commoner to the continental princes, and a king still holds social rank to a lord/duke that commands more wealth and soldiers than him. In this setting the Lord paramount are all of equal rank, with the Wardens holding a little bit extra prestige due to their other tittles. This social structure does not take into account your list of favorite to least favorite, and the social status of the Martells, whom kept their pre-conquest status as sovereign Prince/Princesses of Dorne carries a lot more prestige from houses that lost their royal status. It would be like comparing the Prince of Wales to a Duke.

[norwaywolf123]

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

How are the Lannisters better than the Martells? 

They have equal standing in Westeros though the Martells are Princes and Princesses while the Lannisters are Lords and Ladies. 

The Targs also thought the Martells are better having married into their house multiple times while never marrying a Lannister(thank the gods!!) 

most Houses marry inside  their regions to their lower vassals to keep their territory stable.

Yes the martells call themselves price and pricess but it dont give them any otehr advantege.

They have less income, manpower, food, water. Westerlands have 50K and Dorne 15K

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

most Houses marry inside  their regions to their lower vassals to keep their territory stable.

Yes the martells call themselves price and pricess but it dont give them any otehr advantege.

They have less income, manpower, food, water. Westerlands have 50K and Dorne 15K

Just because the Lannisters have more manpower, wealth, and other resources doesn't make them better than the Martells. I bet a lot of houses would value the Martells over the Lannisters the Targaryens certainly did. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Just because the Lannisters have more manpower, wealth, and other resources doesn't make them better than the Martells. I bet a lot of houses would value the Martells over the Lannisters the Targaryens certainly did. 

Honestly, I kind of doubt it. Obviously the Houses in Dorne would, likely the Houses in the Reach and the Stormlands located near the Dornish marches but outside of that I'd say a marriage alliance to a Lannister is superior to that of a Martell equivalent based on that alliance being able to be more beneficial.

An alliance with House Martell is pretty useless for a lot of Houses in the South due to geography and no real trade benefits.

[Minstral]

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

most Houses marry inside  their regions to their lower vassals to keep their territory stable.

Yes the martells call themselves price and pricess but it dont give them any otehr advantege.

They have less income, manpower, food, water. Westerlands have 50K and Dorne 15K

De Fact power, power held in reality, is different from De Jure power, power held in law. You are missing the point quite entirely when you are  ranking the Lannister status in a medieval social hierarchy based on their supposed assets. Its a prestige based system that has ties to military and economic assets that is extremely different from most democratic societies.

24 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Honestly, I kind of doubt it. Obviously the Houses in Dorne would, likely the Houses in the Reach and the Stormlands located near the Dornish marches but outside of that I'd say a marriage alliance to a Lannister is superior to that of a Martell equivalent based on that alliance being able to be more beneficial.

An alliance with House Martell is pretty useless for a lot of Houses in the South due to geography and no real trade benefits.

In the sense that it would have provided more to the crown yes. But in a regime dominated by small social class.... The Martells kept their status as sovereigns of Dorne (or Princes) when they submitted to the Iron Throne, while the rest of the kings on the continent were either roasted or lost their royal distinction. Imagine if Robb and Catelyn had accepted Renly's offer for submitting to the Iron Throne again in exchange for keeping his crown. In such a situation would the Starks still be the equivalents in terms of prestige as the Arryns and Lannisters? To answer the question for you, they would not. They would hold pretty much the same power as before, but with a much more prestigious rank in the hierarchy of the continental nobility.

Nobles in the Middle ages cared about money and soldiers, make no mistake. But ask yourself why titles that are seemingly empty honors could placate ambitious men. To answer the question again, Its because its a system where prestige is a currency to buying political legitimacy.

[Wall Flower]

I think the point about the Martells and the Lannisters is that Aerys apparently saw Elia as a worthy bride for Rhaegar, while Cersei was dismissed as a 'servant's' daughter. The Princess of Dorne certainly outplayed Tywin in arranging the marriage and to add insult to injury, Elia didn't even have the decency to die in childbirth and clear the way for Cersei.

Of course, Aerys or his advisers may simply have thought that the Martells would provide Rhaegar with a much less powerful ally than Tywin, should the Crown Prince ever decide to move against his father. Doesn't mean that Tywin wouldn't have seen the marriage as a Lannister debt that needed to be repaid.

I think that TheSeason has made some excellent points about Tywin's penchant for using sexual violence as a punishment against women. The gang rape of Tysha, and Tyrion's forced participation, is a lot more disturbing than just a sharp lesson from a harsh lord. As the OP has outlined, Tysha isn't the only instance that Tywin is associated with - the walk of shame of Tytos' mistress, Elia's rape and murder, Tywin's specific inclusion of rape in his instructions to Kevin for setting the Riverland's on fire.

Like Ygrain, I don't for a minute find it believable that Tywin didn't know what he had in Gregor Clegane - the man that he had apparently hand-picked for the mission of murdering small Royal children. I'm not sure that I believe that Tywin was actually there for Elia's rape and murder (he seems to prefer plausible deniability and the appearance of clean hands) but it is certainly possible that Elia called out his name as the man who was really responsible for her death and those of her children.

I note that Tywin was so outraged at Gregor exceeding his orders with Elia that he continued to employ him for similar work for the next 15 years and seemed surprisingly reluctant to give him up to Martell justice.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

37 minutes ago, Minstral said:

 

In the sense that it would have provided more to the crown yes. But in a regime dominated by small social class.... The Martells kept their status as sovereigns of Dorne (or Princes) when they submitted to the Iron Throne, while the rest of the kings on the continent were either roasted or lost their royal distinction.

That is all very well and good but that is just one of the relevant ways of judging a House. The fact that the Martells are a much newer House than the likes of the Starks, Arryns and Lannisters would count against them as would their rule over an inferior realm. 

The idea that a Prince of a smaller, poorer and weaker realm who owes fealty to a King is somehow better than a Lord of a larger, richer more powerful realm is kind of ridiculous and very few would see it as such. Do you think if Skagos successfully claimed independence then the King of Skagos would be seen to have greater status than the Lord of the North?

Quote

 

Imagine if Robb and Catelyn had accepted Renly's offer for submitting to the Iron Throne again in exchange for keeping his crown. In such a situation would the Starks still be the equivalents in terms of prestige as the Arryns and Lannisters?

Yes, of course they would. They'd still owe fealty to someone else. Both Cat and Renly could see this. Why do you think Cat rejected that deal?

Quote

Nobles in the Middle ages cared about money and soldiers, make no mistake. But ask yourself why titles that are seemingly empty honors could placate ambitious men. To answer the question again, Its because its a system where prestige is a currency to buying political legitimacy.

They are just some of the criteria that is used to judge Lords and clearly many Lords will have different reasons for making their judgement. For instance Tywin was not impressed with a Prince and Princess of Dorne marrying his twins and his judgement is just as relevant as Aerys.

 

26 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I note that Tywin was so outraged at Gregor exceeding his orders with Elia that he continued to employ him for similar work for the next 15 years and seemed surprisingly reluctant to give him up to Martell justice.

If the new King and the new Hand don't care why should Tywin? Why would he willingly punish one of his most deadly knights?

And who is claiming that Tywin was outraged by it? I think the truth is that he did not care about it. It was an unfortunate consequence of needing the children dead. It would seem bizarre to punish men he had ordered to murder royal children for raping their mother.

[Wall Flower]

Of course, I don't think that Tywin was outraged - it was a rather poor attempt at sarcasm on my part. I'm just rather sceptical that Elia's rape and murder weren't foreseeable by Tywin and the point remains that he was more than happy to use Gregor's special skills from then on. By the way, I think that the failure of Robert and Jon Arryn to give Elia and her children even a limited amount of justice severely undermined any moral high ground the new regime might have claimed in removing the Mad King. Executing Gregor and Amory Lorch would certainly have been good news for Sandor, two Lady Cleganes and countless smallfolk.