(Spoilers) So what's Littlefinger up to?

[Lautrec]

Just now, TheLastLibrarian said:

But we saw in the trailers a battle between starks and boltons!!

He'll probably come in near the end with the cavalry and sweep up, as seems to be the cliche of fantasy battles (Helm's Deep, Blackwater, Minas Tirith). I think we see Vale troops marching in the trailers, I'll go check.

[A Ghost of Someone]

35 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

It seems like I actually remember them saying that now.  Pfft.

I'm on the same page you are.  If that's what they wished the whole sequence to convey,  they failed miserably.  

EXACTLY. Besides, Sansa on the show always takes the path of least resistance. She has been a prisoner since her father was betrayed by Littlefinger. The only brief time she had some control over her life was when she saved Littlefinger from certain death for killing Lysa, until that very slimy person tricked her out of the Vale.

[WinterCloak]

10 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The Hound is coming back this year and he loves Sansa, he also knows, as he was Joff's main personal bodyguard that LF did her father in. If he gets wind of Sansa's plight and that LF had something to do with it, the Hound might do Lord Baelish, for her.

I've often thought about The Hound and how much he knows, and how it might undo LF's brainwashing of Sansa. I'd love it to happen for Sansa to learn the truth after we get the sense that she actually trusts LF - that this scumbucket she has placed her faith in betrayed Ned.

LF wants what he feels cheated out of - Cat (Sansa), and everything her husband held dear (warden of the north). His obsession with gathering titles is just so he can gain better titles and prove to all those who dismissed him as a poor nobody from The Fingers how clever and wonderful he is. Blergh.

Who knows? Probably a loose end with so much potential that will just go ignored. So, long live the fanfiction version where Sandor rides in on Stranger and cleave Ramsey Sue in half with his greatsword XD

[TheLastLibrarian]

21 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

EXACTLY. Besides, Sansa on the show always takes the path of least resistance. She has been a prisoner since her father was betrayed by Littlefinger. The only brief time she had some control over her life was when she saved Littlefinger from certain death for killing Lysa, until that very slimy person tricked her out of the Vale.

I don't blame D&D, at least they tried and failed, I blame GRRM, If he wrote a more in her storyline we would not be at this point

[Colonel Green]

On 5/9/2016 at 8:03 PM, Lord Oaf of Highgarden said:

I am not overly convinced by this though. Surely a man like LF will have known at least a little about Ramsay. A man who tries to rule through fear is what Ramsay does and surely a knock on effect of this is news spreads of what he is like. LF has enough spies after all. 

The writers have been very explicit that he didn't know anything.  Which is dumb, but there you go.

On 5/10/2016 at 0:17 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

It may be that the Vale might decide the potential Battle of Winterfell. We know that LF is "authorized" by the Crown to wipe out the Boltons and he will be made Warden of the North if he places Sansa's head on a spike. Sansa may not trust him, might even hate him but if the Vale Lords are obedient to him, then she may need him. Either way. I do not like this for Sansa in the end. LF always comes out better than before.

The Vale lords are pro-Stark, and if Littlefinger is selling this as a rescue mission, he's probably lying about how she got to Winterfell, which means he's dependent on her to lie for him.

46 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

4. Invade the North and defeat the Boltons
5. Return Sansa to Cersei and be named Warden of the North, with all the Boltons and Starks now dead 

Step 5 is not his plan.  The Valemen wouldn't allow it, and while the show is not doing the best job of conveying this point, they've repeatedly stated that you need a Stark to hold the North long-term; that's why the Boltons wanted Sansa to begin with.

[A Ghost of Someone]

49 minutes ago, TheLastLibrarian said:

I don't blame D&D, at least they tried and failed, I blame GRRM, If he wrote a more in her storyline we would not be at this point

The show runners have made their own diversions out of their own "creative desires" This is on them, not GRRM.

[A Ghost of Someone]

32 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

The writers have been very explicit that he didn't know anything.  Which is dumb, but there you go.

The Vale lords are pro-Stark, and if Littlefinger is selling this as a rescue mission, he's probably lying about how she got to Winterfell, which means he's dependent on her to lie for him.

Step 5 is not his plan.  The Valemen wouldn't allow it, and while the show is not doing the best job of conveying this point, they've repeatedly stated that you need a Stark to hold the North long-term; that's why the Boltons wanted Sansa to begin with.

Of course LF lies and tells half truths, I am just wondering if it will be as lame an excuse as it was him "convincing" Sansa to "avenge" her family by marrying and possibly producing an heir for the family that betrayed hers.

[Lautrec]

49 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

The writers have been very explicit that he didn't know anything.  Which is dumb, but there you go.

The Vale lords are pro-Stark, and if Littlefinger is selling this as a rescue mission, he's probably lying about how she got to Winterfell, which means he's dependent on her to lie for him.

Step 5 is not his plan.  The Valemen wouldn't allow it, and while the show is not doing the best job of conveying this point, they've repeatedly stated that you need a Stark to hold the North long-term; that's why the Boltons wanted Sansa to begin with.

Hmmm... well that leaves us with 2 possibilities. Either they lied to keep it a secret or he simply won't have to feign his failure but actually have made a mistake.

They are pro-Stark, which is why they will rescue her despite his involvement in the marriage pact. He can say he didn't know if he truly didn't know.

I guess Step 5 is yet to be seen. Of course they wouldn't allow it, but I guess we will see.

[Nerevanin]

I agree with those who said that LF might appeared with his army during the Bastard Bowl just in time for the losing Starks to eventually defeat the Boltons. It would quite cliché but it's exactly the kind of cliché that D&D like. And it would propably make the story even more complex - Sansa might not be all too happy when she meets LF again but she can't really have executed a guy who just saved her ass, can she?

7 hours ago, tinka10 said:

He didn't look happy at all! I have a feeling The Vale are going to sit this one out (again). Little Finger is going to have to convince them hard to go to war, otherwise he'll have to find other means to 'help' Sansa.

 

I honestly think that the look on Royce's face was a reaction to Sansa being to danger and not to the possibility of the Vale participating in the war. When Sansa revealed her real identity to him, he looked like he wanted to help her, support her and protect her. So I think that he wasn't particularly happy about the Boltons chasing Sansa all over the North.

[Lord Oaf of Highgarden]

On 5/10/2016 at 3:57 PM, Nerevanin said:

I don't agree. I don't think that LF would give his precious Sansa to such a monstrous man if he knew what Ramsay was like. Like, why would LF even say that he didn't know much about Ramsay, if it wasn't true? What would he get from that? Nevermind. LF risked a LOT for Sansa - he kept in touch with her through Dontos, which was risky a lot for Dontos was a drunk fool, LF came back for her to KL so she wouldn't be executed for killing Joffrey, he killed his wife who was the key for his power over the Vale.

In my opinion, the whole TV show plot in which LF married Sansa to Ramsay didn't make much sense to me - other than labeling the Boltons as traitors - because it was all pretty dangerous for both LF and Sansa and although LF probably hoped that Stannis wouldn't hurt Sansa if he took over Winterfell, he couldn't be sure that it won't all go to hell. And imo he lost more from it (Sansa) then he gained (the Crown turned on the Boltons and he was promised that he might be the Warden of the North). It seems to me that the only real reason it happened like that was that they could go on with Ramsay's and Theon's story unchanged from the books without a need of a new female character.

 

Maybe I did not phrase my original post right. I don't think LF knew how much of a monster Ramsay is. However it is very out of character that someone like LF would not be aware at all. For a man who confesses that 'knowledge is power' and has an abundance of spies in place to not know nothing about a recently legitimised bastard of the Warden of the North just seems out of character. It was most likely bad writing in the first place and little details like this are just glossed over for the convenience of the story (in this case to get Sansa back into Winterfell/Theon's redemption arc). For me it just does not make sense that he would know nothing. 

As for your second point I do agree. Sansa was used to save introducing a new character and also to still allow Theon to escape the way he did. It falls into what I am saying above about it not particularly making sense but it is glossed over for convenience sake. 

[Nerevanin]

5 minutes ago, Lord Oaf of Highgarden said:

 

Maybe I did not phrase my original post right. I don't think LF knew how much of a monster Ramsay is. However it is very out of character that someone like LF would not be aware at all. For a man who confesses that 'knowledge is power' and has an abundance of spies in place to not know nothing about a recently legitimised bastard of the Warden of the North just seems out of character. It was most likely bad writing in the first place and little details like this are just glossed over for the convenience of the story (in this case to get Sansa back into Winterfell/Theon's redemption arc). For me it just does not make sense that he would nothing. 

As for your second point I do agree. Sansa was used to save introducing a new character and also to still allow Theon to escape the way he did. It falls into what I am saying above about it not particularly make sense but it is glossed over for convenience sake. 

Yeah, I agree that it might be just a problem of bad writing of the show. IIRC in the books it is stated that Roose and one of his previous wives had a son, Domeric, who was the heir, while Ramsay was for quite a long time raised by his mother in a mill, out of Roose's court. It was only after Domeric's death, which was not long before the start of the story, that Ramsay gained significant importance as Roose's heir. So one can speculate that maybe (emphasis on "maybe") LF didn't know much about Ramsay because at first Ramsay wasn't all that important, LF didn't had that much time to check him out (considering the distance between the North and KL and after the beginning of the story LF was like constantly on some diplomatic missions, possibly not really in touch with his spies) and also the distance between Dreadfort and KL could cause some info to get twisted along the way and become more of rumours and stories instead of reliable info.

BUT, and I admit it, this is overthinking it way too much and it includes elements that don't exist in the show which means that the whole thing is mostly likely due to bad writing, unless we are supposed to believe that either LF didn't gave a damn about who Sansa would marry (not very probably), or that everybody is so afraid of Ramsay that they just don't talk, don't see, don't hear.

[Stannis Inc]

He has control of the Vale but he wants complete control of the north. To do that he has to eliminate the current rulers of the north the Boltons. So to do this he arranged the marriage of Sansa to Ramsey this benifits him in multiple ways firstly it gains the trust of the Boltons and lowers their guard to his army..secondly and more importantly it labels the Boltons enemies of the crown which means he doesn't have to worry about the Lannisters too (which he ensured by convincing Cerci he will use his army to deal with it).. Next step is obviously to let Stannis fight them first so as to obviously avoid fighting more than one force.. His next move would've been to march in and take Winterfell..save Sansa from the horrible Botons so she would be installed as Wardeness of the north so he and her can unite the armies of the Vale and the north in order to overthrow the Lannisters who are getting weaker by the day. The only thing I think he didn't count on was Sansa actually escaping before he could make his move..so he will now have to improvise. He has three major forces that he needs to take out so his position can't be compromised..the plan was to let Stannis and the Boltons take each other out, swoop in and take out the winning side then unite the north with the vale using Sansa to take out the last remaining threat to him (The Lannisters)

[lordstewie]

there's a trouble about the plan of LF .

probably he wantusing Sansa as key for the North with the help of Vale but There another clairmants for Winterfell , John Snow

and if he wins over traitor , he become king

Lf dead in a cross 

[Vanessa16]

3 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

Yeah, I agree that it might be just a problem of bad writing of the show. IIRC in the books it is stated that Roose and one of his previous wives had a son, Domeric, who was the heir, while Ramsay was for quite a long time raised by his mother in a mill, out of Roose's court. It was only after Domeric's death, which was not long before the start of the story, that Ramsay gained significant importance as Roose's heir. So one can speculate that maybe (emphasis on "maybe") LF didn't know much about Ramsay because at first Ramsay wasn't all that important, LF didn't had that much time to check him out (considering the distance between the North and KL and after the beginning of the story LF was like constantly on some diplomatic missions, possibly not really in touch with his spies) and also the distance between Dreadfort and KL could cause some info to get twisted along the way and become more of rumours and stories instead of reliable info.

BUT, and I admit it, this is overthinking it way too much and it includes elements that don't exist in the show which means that the whole thing is mostly likely due to bad writing, unless we are supposed to believe that either LF didn't gave a damn about who Sansa would marry (not very probably), or that everybody is so afraid of Ramsay that they just don't talk, don't see, don't hear.

It is actually quite reasonable to assume that Ramsay's exploits aren't well known. In the books various people talk about his deeds but the show makes no mention of it. It's likely that Ramsay pre war of the five things wasn't as bad as his book counterpart. For instance, before Roose dies, he calls Ramsay his first born, so obviously domeric didn't exist, andwasn't killed by Ramsay. Also, the show makes it seem as if Ramsay came up with the name reek for Theon on the spot, and again makes no mention of the first reek, nor do they indicate a previous marriage to lady donella hornwood. Ramsay also implies that he didn't know his mother well ("she had me, she died") which implies he didn't spend much time with her, and talks about how he met myranda when he was just over 12 years old), and since she was the kennel masters daughter, he must of met her at the dreadfort. In the books, Ramsay only came to live at the dreadfort because Roose had no more heirs. In the show, since he was Roose's first born, it makes sense that Roose took him in much earlier due to him having no other sons at the time. I guess the point I'm trying to make is if the writers can change Ramsay's history, they could also made it so his exploits were not well known. 

[mark the bald]

On 10/05/2016 at 3:57 PM, Nerevanin said:

I don't agree. I don't think that LF would give his precious Sansa to such a monstrous man if he knew what Ramsay was like. Like, why would LF even say that he didn't know much about Ramsay, if it wasn't true? What would he get from that? Nevermind. LF risked a LOT for Sansa - he kept in touch with her through Dontos, which was risky a lot for Dontos was a drunk fool, LF came back for her to KL so she wouldn't be executed for killing Joffrey, he killed his wife who was the key for his power over the Vale.

In my opinion, the whole TV show plot in which LF married Sansa to Ramsay didn't make much sense to me - other than labeling the Boltons as traitors - because it was all pretty dangerous for both LF and Sansa and although LF probably hoped that Stannis wouldn't hurt Sansa if he took over Winterfell, he couldn't be sure that it won't all go to hell. And imo he lost more from it (Sansa) then he gained (the Crown turned on the Boltons and he was promised that he might be the Warden of the North). It seems to me that the only real reason it happened like that was that they could go on with Ramsay's and Theon's story unchanged from the books without a need of a new female character.

i agree ...the whole sansa ramsey marriage made no sense what did LF gain from brokering the deal ? cercei hasnt mentioned sansa in this series or tyrion 

[Bran Snow]

14 hours ago, Morgred said:

the 3rd option in the middle of battle  when stark almost lost it came arryns army like stanis to castle black. They will defeat bolton army, catch ramsay and in ep 9 we will finally see ramsay tortured and killed :3

with LF leading the charge with a halo of light around him while dual wielding battle axes or something crazy like that

[Bran Snow]

10 minutes ago, mark the bald said:

i agree ...the whole sansa ramsey marriage made no sense what did LF gain from brokering the deal ? cercei hasnt mentioned sansa in this series or tyrion 

LF gained the ability to play both sides. He wanted to bring the Vale army north but in doing that, the Lannisters might question what he was doing. Having the Boltons marry Sansa, it makes them enemy of the state and now he has their backing to do it. He gets the north (which is want he wants) and doesn't make an enemy of the Lannisters

[nyser1]

4 hours ago, Bran Snow said:

with LF leading the charge with a halo of light around him while dual wielding battle axes or something crazy like that

I would laugh and possibly cry at the same time.

[CrypticWeirwood]

13 hours ago, Lautrec said:

This is a bit tangential, but, since we know that Walder Frey is in this season, does anybody think that while marching North with his army that LF will have the Freys killed as revenge for killing Catelyn?

Just as those responsible for Jon’s murder were hanged by Jon himself, I’m thinking the Freys who killed Catelyn will be hanged by Cat herself — along any other Freys, Lannisters, and anyone in their service, livery, or general vicinity.  

[WhoYouCallingPeasant]

A couple of things.

1. As much as I would love for the Hound to be Sansa's rescuer, I think he will be the one to fight against "un-mountain", and they will both probably die, or at the least the Hound would be incapacitated enough to be useless.

2. In the books, LF states that he will have revenge on everyone that wronged him and that included Cat. He will use Sansa and then throw her away if her can. There is NO WAY he did not know anything about Ramsey. But he knew Ransey wouldn't kill her, but probably break her spirit. What he didn't count on was Theon. 

3. I have read a spoiler (supposedly from an extra) that the vale does ride in To save the day at winterfell and Ramsey gets his directly from JS. 

4. The unknown so far is the roll the Freys will have since old man counted on being a part of the north thru his daughter and her child, now murdered by Ramsey.

as an aside, I am still holding out hope that shaggy dog is still alive and that is was a large wolf head and the umbers (and hopefully the Manderlys - since they were mentioned) are part of the northern conspiracy....not so sure on that one since they have really veered off the book course.

as always enjoy reading what you guys post.