"Fair Game: The critical universe around Game of Thrones".

[Boarsbane]

14 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

What? Readers and critics have every right to say what they think should or should not have been a part of a story. And have, ever since literature existed. And it's not dictating, it's not acting they know better than the author. It's called literary criticism, pure and simple, and it's comments like yours that show what a muddled and warped perspective some people have on the field. Better authors that Martin have had this kind of criticism. Like, one of my favorite novels, Wiseblood, includes a subplot that critics argued (and still do) should've been cut out from the final version, and while I disagree with that notion, critics have every right to their opinion. 

Do you seriously think there's a difference between saying "I don't like this" and "I don't think this was needed"? Why should there be a limit to criticism? Where does arrogance fit in? Is it truly arrogant to criticize a text put forth into the world with the purpose of being criticized? I can easily say that I wholeheartedly believe that a lot of Feast, mostly sections of Brienne's and Sam's chapters are transparent filler. Could Martin prove me somewhat wrong by writing that, I don't know, Kojja Mo or Nimble Dick are Azor Ahai Reborn? Sure, but why would that negate the criticism? I could just as easily say that the way Martin revealed Nimble Dick as Azor Ahai was anticlimactic or clumsy or what have you. 

And this right here is why this whole enterprise is so hypocritical. The books are for some reason impervious to criticism, but the show is fair game for being endlessly nitpicked into oblivion and beyond? 

Did he say think? No he stated his opinion as fact as if there is some way to know what's needed and not needed for a series that still has at least two novels left. I don't care to have some critic tell me what I need, and yes criticizing the author on the grounds of something being necessary or not before the series is even done does come across as arrogant to me, they're free to do it and I'm free to think they are arrogant. 

Of course there is a difference between just not liking something and calling it unnecessary, I can think of plenty of things people wouldn't of liked but accepted as necessary to advance the plot.

The books clearly aren't impervious to criticism, I see people like you and Gareth whine about them all the time but to complain about what is needed and what isn't before he finishes is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

 And this right here is why this whole enterprise is so hypocritical. The books are for some reason impervious to criticism, but the show is fair game for being endlessly nitpicked into oblivion and beyond? 

I would be interested to hear what opposition to criticism that you are referring to, I often hear criticism of the books and find that the majority generally agrees with it. Some from you yourself, and as I disagree with most of your criticism, I recognize the validity in it and agree that most is fair.

I would say the reason the show is "being endlessly nitpicked into oblivion and beyond?" is because there are an endless amount of issues worth being nitpicked.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

mostly media does more than give criticism. They say, almost literally: "the show is better than the books". 

Their reasons are very weak. Because they are based on opinions about the books. Valid opinions, but opinions, nevertheless. You don't read "I think the show did better than the book this and that" (although a few say so), you read: "the show is better", and get away with it without actually giving such books a criticism. 

Anyone who hasn't read the books probably read this and woul dsay this book suck like this is an universal fact. Just like that. There is no real analysis of thebooks. If you are going to compare them, you can't just leave one hanging. 

[HairGrowsBack]

9 hours ago, lancerman said:

GRRM also thought he'd get ADWD out about a year after AFFC.

GRRM also thought he had a huge head start on the show and told anybody who would listen not to worry about the show catching up to the books.

GRRM also thought the next book would get released back in October, then December.

GRRM also wrote the Mereen plot, then admitted that it became a disaster that he had no idea of how to get out of.

 

His not being able to estimate his own writing pace has nothing to do with his deciding which characters will play an important role. These are pretty broad strokes, unlike the Mereenese knot which was more about the details within a particular storyline.

[Ser Gareth]

8 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Since when do the readers start dictating what is needed? It's his story, if you don't like parts of it then fine but don't act like you know it better than him by saying this and that wasn't needed. 

Fair point.  Same applies to the TV show then surely?  So both are above criticism of their storylines?

[Ser Gareth]

16 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

His not being able to estimate his own writing pace has nothing to do with his deciding which characters will play an important role. These are pretty broad strokes, unlike the Mereenese knot which was more about the details within a particular storyline.

Chicken, egg.  The fact is his writing style is slow because he keeps adding new characters he doesn't have an end game for.

[HairGrowsBack]

6 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Chicken, egg.  The fact is his writing style is slow because he keeps adding new characters he doesn't have an end game for.

No, the fact is you don't know what the endgame is but you sure act like you do. 

[Darkstream]

58 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

No, the fact is you don't know what the endgame is but you sure act like you do. 

I would add that the same criticism of d&d has been somewhat validated even though we don't know their endgame yet, by the fact that they have resorted to Killing off several  characters (some of which were main characters) every episode so far this season. The way in which these characters have been killed off has not only been illogical, meaningless, and implausible, but apparently king and kin slaying is the most accepted and honorable action that can be taken in Weisseros. The excuse can be made that they need to cut down on unimportant plots and characters due to time constraints, or whatever the reason is, but the need to do this is a direct result of d&d not organizing or planning out the story they were telling. This to me, among a multitude of other things is an indication that they are very poor writers and deserve to be criticized for it, not unjustly praised for it like they have been. 

[Ser Gareth]

58 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

No, the fact is you don't know what the endgame is but you sure act like you do. 

I'll find out at the end of season 8.  I seriously doubt we'll get a book ending.

As for speculating what is going on?  It's pretty obvious to anyone who has chipped the ice from their eyes.....

[Ser Gareth]

20 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I would add that the same criticism of d&d has been somewhat validated even though we don't know their endgame yet, by the fact that they have resorted to Killing off several  characters (some of which were main characters) every episode so far this season. The way in which these characters have been killed off has not only been illogical, meaningless, and implausible, but apparently king and kin slaying is the most accepted and honorable action that can be taken in Weisseros. The excuse can be made that they need to cut down on unimportant plots and characters due to time constraints, or whatever the reason is, but the need to do this is a direct result of d&d not organizing or planning out the story they were telling. This to me, among a multitude of other things is an indication that they are very poor writers and deserve to be criticized for it, not unjustly praised for it like they have been. 

Ironically not many people are praising them.  Most people are angry they are having to write their own plot at all.  They aren't as good a story teller as GRRM.  I have not read a single post claiming they are.  But GRRM let everyone down so may as well now enjoy the ride.

What boils me are the GRRM fanatics who crucify D&D over every single detail and yet refuse to acknowledge that ASOIAF has also gone downhill.

And worst of all are the hypocrites who defend GRRM citing the story is not yet done so it is unfair to speculate on his motives and gladly get themselves into a lather over some of the D&D plots without those plots reaching a conclusion.  I am going to set myself laughing if Rickon does cop a leg injury....

 

 

[Maid So Fair]

12 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

With no resolution to the myriad of additional plots in AFFC and ADWD they foolishly started trying to mirror them initially (as much as TV allowed) but then went away from them when they realised GRRM doesn't have a resolution for many of them either.

Well, some of them get resolved in the same book or the resolution is at least hinted at and/or the options are limited. Hence why most book readers have not been very surprised by what has happened in S6 so far, even in the few plots that go beyond the books.

But in any case 1, you don't know whether GRRM has a resolution or not, that's just your assumption. Most importantly 2, even if he doesn't or it's not satisfactory there's nothing stopping the show writers writing their own or changing it (as they changed and/or invented a lot of other stuff with far less justification or payoff). If their resolution sucks that's on them.

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Ironically not many people are praising them.  

So why did they win an Emmy?

5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Ironically not many people are praising them.  Most people are angry they are having to write their own plot at all.  They aren't as good a story teller as GRRM.  I have not read a single post claiming they are.  But GRRM let everyone down so may as well now enjoy the ride.

What does this even mean? who's angry? So if it's a problem for them to write their own plot, that also would indicate to me that they are bad writers and didn't deserve the Emmy that they won. I find it amusing how people defend d&d and blame the declining quality of the show on the last two books being bad, or saying GRRM let everyone down by not finishing the book. Do you not see the fallacy in this argument, if d&d cannot write their story without having the source material to draw on, then once again, this indicates to me that they are not qualified to adapt this superb work of literature, and are bad writers. Bad writer should not win an Emmy for their writing.

19 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

What boils me are the GRRM fanatics who crucify D&D over every single detail and yet refuse to acknowledge that ASOIAF has also gone downhill.

And worst of all are the hypocrites who defend GRRM citing the story is not yet done so it is unfair to speculate on his motives and gladly get themselves into a lather over some of the D&D plots without those plots reaching a conclusion.  I am going to set myself laughing if Rickon does cop a leg injury....

But none of GRRM's plots have come to a ridiculous non sensible conclusion. A lot of d&d's already have. 

And tell me why is it impossible for anyone to defend d&d without criticizing the books. whether you think the books have gone downhill or not has nothing to do with the quality of product that d&d present. This is not a valid defense and is just a means to deflect the point at hand. If, for example, the excuse is that the Dorne plot in the books was bad or boring, then d&d, as Emmy award winning writers, should be able to make changes to make it work, but instead they gave us the absolute worst possible alternative that is imaginable.

[Ser Gareth]

3 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Well, some of them get resolved in the same book or the resolution is at least hinted at and/or the options are limited. Hence why most book readers have been very surprised by what has happened in S6 so far, even in the few plots that go beyond the books.

But in any case 1, you don't know whether GRRM has a resolution or not, that's just your assumption. Most importantly 2, even if he doesn't or it's not satisfactory there's nothing stopping the show writers writing their own or changing it (as they changed and/or invented a lot of other stuff with far less justification or payoff). If their resolution sucks that's on them.

But those characters arcs aren't complete or what they've started isn't.  Quentyn is the best example.  His own personal story arc is complete but the consequences are not.  And without those consequences being resolved I think it was prudent he was cut from the show.  That and the fact his story arc is so dull.

And GRRM has confirmed he doesn't know the resolution to many of the plots yet and that is an output of his gardening approach.  Whether that is to be believed is another matter.

[Ser Gareth]

4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

So why did they win an Emmy?

What does this even mean? who's angry? So if it's a problem for them to write their own plot, that also would indicate to me that they are bad writers and didn't deserve the Emmy that they won. I find it amusing how people defend d&d and blame the declining quality of the show on the last two books being bad, or saying GRRM let everyone down by not finishing the book. Do you not see the fallacy in this argument, if d&d cannot write their story without having the source material to draw on, then once again, this indicates to me that they are not qualified to adapt this superb work of literature, and are bad writers. Bad writer should not win an Emmy for their writing.

But none of GRRM's plots have come to a ridiculous non sensible conclusion. A lot of d&d's already have. 

And tell me why is it impossible for anyone to defend d&d without criticizing the books. whether you think the books have gone downhill or not has nothing to do with the quality of product that d&d present. This is not a valid defense and is just a means to deflect the point at hand. If, for example, the excuse is that the Dorne plot in the books was bad or boring, then d&d, as Emmy award winning writers, should be able to make changes to make it work, but instead they gave us the absolute worst possible alternative that is imaginable.

I agree that D&D are not good story tellers.  Dorne and the Iron Born in the books are past atrocious and somehow D&D made them worse.  However if D&D had read ADWD and knew in advance that the books would be nowhere near complete?  Then they could have cut the plots all together.

Anyway IMO the show is vastly inferior to the first three books but is an improvement on the last two books.

Its not a case of defending D&D.  It's a case of those attacking them do so despite the fact the books are also flawed.  They refuse to acknowledge this and that makes them narrow minded.  If people hate the show so much why do they continue to watch it?  That's what I don't get.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 

And tell me why is it impossible for anyone to defend d&d without criticizing the books. whether you think the books have gone downhill or not has nothing to do with the quality of product that d&d present. This is not a valid defense and is just a means to deflect the point at hand. If, for example, the excuse is that the Dorne plot in the books was bad or boring, then d&d, as Emmy award winning writers, should be able to make changes to make it work, but instead they gave us the absolute worst possible alternative that is imaginable.

 If the two were completely separate entities then it would not be valid to criticise the books. However the books still feed into the process, they are always going to one of the reasons for the quality of the show, both good and bad. The greatest events from the show have come from the books, there is no doubt. But at the same time, the worst parts of the show have come about due to the fundamental need to make changes to the original material. I think everyone here must see the valid need to cut material from the books, as well as attempting to try and fix the pacing issues the books have, which don't translate to screen. I think we can ALL agree on that right?

Sure, many of the 'fixes' haven't been perfect, and many have been bad. But that there was a NEED to make those fixes is fundamentally down to the source material.

And yes, the show is in many ways 'fixing' problems with the books. It cant allow the pedestrian pacing of Martins work, or get into a situation where the story expands out forever and seemingly never ends. That is a criticism of the books that has been around for many years, and is recognised by a lot of people. I for one am very glad of many of the changes of last season, it was a serious fat trimming exercise and despite its flaws its much better than had they simply decided to keep much of the slower material from the books. 

And I'm not especially keen on some of this seasons elements, which I find rushed. But at the same time there is a huge buzz about the show now, a level of excitment that is the result of actually creating a sense of being on the final lap. 

[Maid So Fair]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

But those characters arcs aren't complete or what they've started isn't.  Quentyn is the best example.  His own personal story arc is complete but the consequences are not.  And without those consequences being resolved I think it was prudent he was cut from the show.  That and the fact his story arc is so dull.

You are focus img on one story arc (that I haven't even mentioned) instead of the general point. By all means cut Quentyn. They did. Make your own version of the Dornish plot. Did any of these decisions improve Dorne? If it's terrible then that makes you a terrible writer - you wrote a storyline. It sucked. It's no one else's fault. 

Also, the same can be said of most other plot lines. We are still seeing through fallback from Neds execution back in S1. That doesnt mean his arc had no resolution or was somehow incomplete. The very fact you believe there will Ben on sequences proves that there's enough information to extrapolate what these might be.

[Winter's Cold]

Game of Thrones (book version) was published in 1996. It's 20 years later and the series still isn't done. Some readers have died waiting for a resolution to the story during that time. Others have gotten married and had children. It's not a certainty that the books will ever be finished. The last two books also significantly slowed down plot progression. 

Thus, the TV show adaptation has gradually become less of an adaptation of the book material and more of a show based on the book series. 

D&D certainly don't compare to Martin in terms of storytelling. However, it is a certainty that they will finish the show. The fans, some who have waited 20 years, will get some kind of conclusion.

Perhaps some of these fans may be less critical than they would normally be and just be grateful that they will see an ending to the series they loved. Perhaps they understand that creating original content is more difficult than adapting already written and published material. Perhaps they may lower their expectations and just try to enjoy the show for what is rather than raging over every single difference from the book series. 

Ultimately, despite little hiccups here and there, the show is still enjoyable overall. The show clearly isn't perfect but it might be the only thing we'll get.

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

mostly media does more than give criticism. They say, almost literally: "the show is better than the books". 

Their reasons are very weak. Because they are based on opinions about the books. Valid opinions, but opinions, nevertheless. You don't read "I think the show did better than the book this and that" (although a few say so), you read: "the show is better", and get away with it without actually giving such books a criticism. 

Anyone who hasn't read the books probably read this and woul dsay this book suck like this is an universal fact. Just like that. There is no real analysis of thebooks. If you are going to compare them, you can't just leave one hanging. 

Sources?

[BlueNightzx]

i dont understand, to me this hate on dorne, and the iron born in the books, is like people hating the prequels that george lucas wanted to do
its their world, their vision, their story, you cant force an author to stay limited on a box

he created a whole world, he likes to add different culture, i know that we got invested on the plots and characters of central westeros and the ITm but i found really refreshing the new locations and culture, gave more weight to the world, it feels like a real world instead of the massive number of tolkien copy cats that make all their books based on western european culture

seeing the view of westeros from the point of view of the essosi, the decadence and barbarism of the iron born, the unique social and cultural traits of dorne, that are result from their cultural separatism, and by the fact that aegon could not conquer them, its really fascinating

some times i feel that some readers cant handle the large amount of information george give them

i can`t even imagine they trying to grasp the tolkien universe, only the elven families and different clans,teleri, noldor, sindarin,  will mindfuck them

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Game of Thrones (book version) was published in 1996. It's 20 years later and the series still isn't done. Some readers have died waiting for a resolution to the story during that time. Others have gotten married and had children. It's not a certainty that the books will ever be finished. The last two books also significantly slowed down plot progression. 

Thus, the TV show adaptation has gradually become less of an adaptation of the book material and more of a show based on the book series. 

D&D certainly don't compare to Martin in terms of storytelling. However, it is a certainty that they will finish the show. The fans, some who have waited 20 years, will get some kind of conclusion.

Perhaps some of these fans may be less critical than they would normally be and just be grateful that they will see an ending to the series they loved. Perhaps they understand that creating original content is more difficult than adapting already written and published material. Perhaps they may lower their expectations and just try to enjoy the show for what is rather than raging over every single difference from the book series. 

Ultimately, despite little hiccups here and there, the show is still enjoyable overall. The show clearly isn't perfect but it might be the only thing we'll get.

Perfectly surmised.