"Fair Game: The critical universe around Game of Thrones".

[HairGrowsBack]

57 minutes ago, Daske said:

The banner to his site says 'insults are forbidden'. LOL, so it's ok to personally and consistently slag off the creative team for one production but people aren't allowed to do so to yours, Miodrag?

It's hilarious this documentary is having so many problems. I think he is finding out it's not so easy as he thinks to produce something. Given all the lectures we've had over the years on how things should be done I thought it would be a breeze.

And the conspiracy theories in this thread are quite bonkers. People like the show. Get over it.

Yeah , because Miodrag was given the same budget and production facilities as D&D. The guy made the entire thing practically on his own, on his own ressources. You can do better than that, come on.

[Winter's Cold]

35 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Add another strawman and negative suppositions!

Yes, 20 years have passed since the first book was released. So what? Is that really such slow writing that I have to hear this argument again and again? That's still what, 250 pages per year? Doesn't seem that bad to me.

Hearing that argument, it looks like GRRM is 90yo and/or totally gave up writing.

Long series take time to complete, that's perfectly normal. Hearing you guys, it looks like it's some sort of ridiculous anomaly that automatically means that GRRM is lazy or doesn't care about his readers.

lets look at other series:

The DARK TOWER series from Stephen King, 8 books from 1982 to 2012

THE CHRONICLES OF THOMAS COVENANT from Stephen S. Donaldson, 10 books from 1977 to 2013

WARS OF LIGHT AND SHADOWS by Janny Wurts, 9 books from 1993 to 2011, next book expected this year

OUTLANDER series by Diana Gabaldon, 8 books from 1991 to 2014, next book still not dated

(these series have more books but more or less the same page count than ASoIaF).

Damn, we can even compare it with Harry Potter, 7 books in 10 years, but only half the page count of ASoIaF approximately.

Do you believe all these authors are bad? Do you hear their fans constantly bitching about it?

Yes, there are exceptions like Steven Erikson and his Malazan series for example, but that's life.

All of those series have more books out than the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

All of those series are less popular than Game of Thrones thus I presume less people overall will complain about them. I don't visit any fan forums of those books so I don't know if people are complaining about their release times. 

Also you ignored the main reason why some suspect that ASOIAF may not be finished in book form by Martin, Robert Jordan. He proved that it was indeed possible for a prolific and popular epic fantasy author to not complete his series.

GRRM is the one who set these expectations when he decided to split AFFC and ADWD into two books and promised that ADWD would be released soon after AFFC. Instead, it took five years. 

Do you think this inspires any trust that the book series will be finished in a timely manner? 

[sweetsunray]

56 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

All of those series have more books out than the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

All of those series are less popular than Game of Thrones thus I presume less people overall will complain about them. I don't visit any fan forums of those books so I don't know if people are complaining about their release times.

Earth's Children series by Jean M. Auel from 1979-2011 (that's over 30 years) for six books. I read the first book when I was 12 in 1986. It was a very popular series, with pre-orders and a storm of buyers when the last three new books came out (between 1990 and 2011). It took her 21 years to write the last two. None had the literary quality as George's has. And while there were many complaints about the last two (with which I agree... they were badly written almost first draft books), none of it was about her writing pace. The series sold 45 million copies by 2010, and half of that by 1990.

[Valetudo]

11 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

All of those series have more books out than the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

All of those series are less popular than Game of Thrones thus I presume less people overall will complain about them. I don't visit any fan forums of those books so I don't know if people are complaining about their release times. 

Also you ignored the main reason why some suspect that ASOIAF may not be finished in book form by Martin, Robert Jordan. He proved that it was indeed possible for a prolific and popular epic fantasy author to not complete his series.

GRRM is the one who set these expectations when he decided to split AFFC and ADWD into two books and promised that ADWD would be released soon after AFFC. Instead, it took five years. 

Do you think this inspires any trust that the book series will be finished in a timely manner? 

They have more books, but approximately the same page count. We can debate than having books that big may be an error, but that's not related to his writing speed.

Talking about popularity, the dark tower series sold 30 million books and Outlander 25 million. Not really obscure series.

Outlander published 8 books in 25 years, The Dark Tower 8 in 30, ASoIaF 5 in 20, that's approximately the same rythm.

So, because a writer did not finish his series, that means that GRRM will not finish his? Of course, it's a possibility, but how many other writers did finish theirs?

Yes, GRRM has been slower these last years, but wasn't that predictable considering the growing complexity of the books paired with a newfound worldwide superstar status?

GRRM is known for missing deadlines since he started writing. But until now, he still released his books, even if delayed. I never said that he would finish the series in the next two years, but I believe that he can do it in 10. If you don't have the patience to wait, you shouldn't have started to read them.

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Yes, but the assumptions you are making about me are false, and this is a thread dedicated to a discussion about criticism of the show, I think I'm in a suitable place. And believe me, I get my fair share of hating on the show with like minded people that feel the same as me.

So correct my assumptions and tell me why you watch the show if you hate it and why you feel the desire to try and justify your opinion over and over again.

[Ser Gareth]

11 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

They have more books, but approximately the same page count. We can debate than having books that big may be an error, but that's not related to his writing speed.

Talking about popularity, the dark tower series sold 30 million books and Outlander 25 million. Not really obscure series.

Outlander published 8 books in 25 years, The Dark Tower 8 in 30, ASoIaF 5 in 20, that's approximately the same rythm.

So, because a writer did not finish his series, that means that GRRM will not finish his? Of course, it's a possibility, but how many other writers did finish theirs?

Yes, GRRM has been slower these last years, but wasn't that predictable considering the growing complexity of the books paired with a newfound worldwide superstar status?

GRRM is known for missing deadlines since he started writing. But until now, he still released his books, even if delayed. I never said that he would finish the series in the next two years, but I believe that he can do it in 10. If you don't have the patience to wait, you shouldn't have started to read them.

He got slower because the story has got away from him.  Right up until the release of ASOS there was going to be the five year gap.  Once he realised he had erred in doing this he has been on a corrective course.  And he hasn't done a good job of it.

[Valetudo]

13 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

He got slower because the story has got away from him.  Right up until the release of ASOS there was going to be the five year gap.  Once he realised he had erred in doing this he has been on a corrective course.  And he hasn't done a good job of it.

Please tell me what's the end game since you're inside his head.

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

All of those series have more books out than the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

All of those series are less popular than Game of Thrones thus I presume less people overall will complain about them. I don't visit any fan forums of those books so I don't know if people are complaining about their release times. 

Also you ignored the main reason why some suspect that ASOIAF may not be finished in book form by Martin, Robert Jordan. He proved that it was indeed possible for a prolific and popular epic fantasy author to not complete his series.

GRRM is the one who set these expectations when he decided to split AFFC and ADWD into two books and promised that ADWD would be released soon after AFFC. Instead, it took five years. 

Do you think this inspires any trust that the book series will be finished in a timely manner? 

Regarding popularity.  The TV show has made AGOT globally famous.  Prior to the TV show I'd say its popularity was on par with a myriad of other books.

[Ser Gareth]

6 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Please tell me what's the end game since you're inside his head.

We'll never get it from the books.

And it's obvious he has lost control of his own story and the zest for writing it.  It's no longer flowing easily because he has to overcome this 5 year gap.  And you can tell the story is suffering.

A renowned author once advised me that writing a great story usually comes easy.  The story flows and the author can't get the words onto the pages fast enough.  If an author is suffering writers block for a lengthy period of time it's because they've either lost control or passion for the story they are telling.

Whilst I believe that GRRM loves the world he creates (and the fame and fortune the TV show has brought him) I also believe that ASOIAF has become a chore to him.

 

[Hangover of the Morning]

I am not sure what the main points in the documentary will be but the criticisms in the "preview" was fundamentally flawed. 

1. The author makes it sound as if the actors not reading the books are committing a criminal offence. I’m not up to date on the Rant & Rave threads so correct me if I wrong but even the biggest critics of the show rarely have problem with the casting or the actor’s performances.

Ironically, the performances criticised the most on the forums are those of Emilia Clarke and Kit Harrington (at least earlier  seasons) both book readers. As far as I can tell, very few people have problem with the actors and actresses portraying Tywin, Arya, Cersei, Jaime or Tyrion and neither of them is a book reader. 

There is no correlation between reading books and actors performance so what is this criticisms about?

Do we just want the actors to be as much book nerds as we are or are we hoping that they will vehemently advocate against any book-change on the show?

2. Talisa's reaction was spot on given Robb's rather aggressive and shocked outburst after her revelation. They are still very young, in the middle of a war, on a march and sleeping in tents. They probably have never talked about babies until now. So, although, on an intellectual level, she knows that Robb needs an heir or even wants kids, she’s naturally taken aback by his shocked response, and would wonder if he might not be happy about that news after all.

Asking if "Robb's mad would be weird, if Robb's initial reaction was "that's amazing, I'm so glad" but he didn't say that. He yelled "what" and somewhat angrily asked her "if she was certain"? Robb’s reaction was understandable, since it was a shocking news to him but once he was given a second to process it, he responded as expected. It’s a very natural “misunderstanding” so typical for this situation for the first time parents-to-be.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

16 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

I am not sure what the main points in the documentary will be but the criticisms in the "preview" was fundamentally flawed. 

1. The author makes it sound as if the actors not reading the books are committing a criminal offence. I’m not up to date on the Rant & Rave threads so correct me if I wrong but even the biggest critics of the show rarely have problem with the casting or the actor’s performances.

Ironically, the performances criticised the most on the forums are those of Emilia Clarke and Kit Harrington (at least earlier  seasons) both book readers. As far as I can tell, very few people have problem with the actors and actresses portraying Tywin, Arya, Cersei, Jaime or Tyrion and neither of them is a book reader. 

There is no correlation between reading books and actors performance so what is this criticisms about?

Do we just want the actors to be as much book nerds as we are or are we hoping that they will vehemently advocate against any book-change on the show?

2. Talisa's reaction was spot on given Robb's rather aggressive and shocked outburst after her revelation. They are still very young, in the middle of a war, on a march and sleeping in tents. They probably have never talked about babies until now. So, although, on an intellectual level, she knows that Robb needs an heir or even wants kids, she’s naturally taken aback by his shocked response, and would wonder if he might not be happy about that news after all.

Asking if "Robb's mad would be weird, if Robb's initial reaction was "that's amazing, I'm so glad" but he didn't say that. He yelled "what" and somewhat angrily asked her "if she was certain"? Robb’s reaction was understandable, since it was a shocking news to him but once he was given a second to process it, he responded as expected. It’s a very natural “misunderstanding” so typical for this situation for the first time parents-to-be.

Agree. I'll wait and see what the documentary has to say, but so far it seems that the basis for it rests on being unable to use your imagination to fill in gaps, and wild persecution complex.

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Do we just want the actors to be as much book nerds as we are or are we hoping that they will vehemently advocate against any book-change on the show

It's pretty much about the latter, from what I've seen.  Hence the borderline conspiracy-theorizing about how the producers are silencing any actor who has.

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

It's pretty much about the latter, from what I've seen.  Hence the borderline conspiracy-theorizing about how the producers are silencing any actor who has.

So, even though book readers post over and over again how it's not so much about that the show needs to be a mirror copy of the books, but it should be a representation of the books and changes for the sake of changes are either not clear to viewers or end up creating plot issues later, you seem to be stuck in "they're just book purist" gear. If you are going to ignite the topics of this doc, or have no interest in them, maybe this isn't the thread for you, and don't watch it. 

[Lautrec]

This still isn't out? Wow.

Say what you want about the show, they've never missed a deadline. In fact, some episodes have come out prematurely  

[Hangover of the Morning]

45 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

It's pretty much about the latter, from what I've seen.  Hence the borderline conspiracy-theorizing about how the producers are silencing any actor who has.

Yeah, and the evidence for the conspiracy is a video of Benioff clearly admitting that he leaves up to each actor if they want to read the books. How shocking that D&D  don't force their actors to read (and re-read) a ~5000 page manuscript, of which a huge % could be irrelevant to their character but at the same time don't have any problem if they do. All of the actors also are free to discuss their character with GRRM, which they clearly do. Almost everyone of them has a story or two about Geroge giving them tips and secret info about their character's future. 

It's true that in some instances, it could be even detrimental to the actor's performance to read ahead but even so, I doubt anyone is recommending the actors to not to read if they want. Imagine Leena Heady deciding to read Cersei's POV ( thus only her chapters in AFfC and ADwD) to prepare for her role before shooting the first series. I can't imagine how that would help and how that would made it easier for her to get into Cersei's head. AGoT Cersei was clearly much more intelligent and cunning and nowhere near as bonkers. D&D has also, for obvious reasons, decide to downplay a lot of her villainous and crazy traits in order to make her into a more rounded and believable character. 

I have a good understanding of the characters only because I read the books twice and spent a considerable amount of time on this forum, reading up essays and having discussion with fellow book nerds. Info on most of non-POV characters comes from many, often biased sources and requires careful reading and conscious analysing of the text to get a good understanding. You really have to piece it from a sentence here and there, spread out over multiple POVs and 5 massive books. Most of Renly's, characterisation, for example, doesn't come until after his death and comes mostly from people having preconcieved opinions of him.

Most people on this forum read the books many times and yet we still all get into heated discussion over the motivation of even the major characters because many of us either still "don't get it"or it's vague enough in the books that we interpret it differently. 

I can absolutely understand that for the actors, having a couple hour sit down with D&D (plus GRRM if available) where they are given a rundown on their character including his/her history, family ties, motives as well as inner thoughts would be million times more useful than spending hours upon hours reading the books and trying to interpret the character themselves, possibly even reaching a different conclusion than what the show-runners have in mind. 

 

[Boarsbane]

8 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Fair point.  Same applies to the TV show then surely?  So both are above criticism of their storylines?

No, there is still plenty that you can find wrong with the storyline but whether or not some of their poor changes were necessary because of them not knowing the events after Dance and Feast remains to be seen so I'll hold judgement on calling them unnecessary 

[TheKitttenGuard]

3 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Yeah , because Miodrag was given the same budget and production facilities as D&D. The guy made the entire thing practically on his own, on his own ressources. You can do better than that, come on.

The point is when Miodrag started to do a production that there started to be difficulties that were not seen and known.

 Some problems would of been easier to resolve support but others like needing to reshot will be a larger disaster on a larger production.

Posters can type away on what is wrong, how it should be done, and what should be done but many goes out when it comes to make it happen.

The community the documentary what to advocate for put very little thought to the production end.

That is my view do to the very personal nature the attacks get towards the showrunners.  Their intelligence and personal morales are attacked in a very vicious matter.  It is one thing to not like what they do.  That you do not like means they are horrible people is completely wrong but is very acceptable on this forum.

 

Midodrag wanted this documentary to start a project.  It is very kind that several are extremely understanding of the problems and do not care about deadlines.  The show does have people that do care very much about deadlines and the show of this scale being ready is a very small and ignore statement of how excellent that production is.

 

 

[Hangover of the Morning]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, even though book readers post over and over again how it's not so much about that the show needs to be a mirror copy of the books, but it should be a representation of the books and changes for the sake of changes are either not clear to viewers or end up creating plot issues later, you seem to be stuck in "they're just book purist" gear. If you are going to ignite the topics of this doc, or have no interest in them, maybe this isn't the thread for you, and don't watch it. 

You're completely missing the point of the discussion. It's not about accusing show critics from not being able to handle book change at all. We're talking about specifics from the documentary where the actors are criticised by the author for not reading the books, which I believe is an inherently flawed argument. The doc hints that D&D might be deliberately discouraging the actors from reading the books by using some very skewed logic as evidence (e.g. actor reading up a lot on other roles but seemingly illogically refusing to do so for GoT). 

This and the alleged Tallisa's irrational reaction are all we've seen from the document so far. I consider both of these arguments petty and ridiculous. Maybe the rest of the doc will be well versed but if this is the selling point, I don't have huge hopes for the rest. And yeah, I'm generally biased against most conspiracy theories, particularly when there is a perfectly logical and much more likely explanation. 

[Colonel Green]

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, even though book readers post over and over again how it's not so much about that the show needs to be a mirror copy of the books, but it should be a representation of the books and changes for the sake of changes are either not clear to viewers or end up creating plot issues later, you seem to be stuck in "they're just book purist" gear. If you are going to ignite the topics of this doc, or have no interest in them, maybe this isn't the thread for you, and don't watch it. 

There have been plenty of posts in prior threads about this doc, in R&R, etc. about how the producers don't want the actors to read the books because otherwise they'd all be like Ian McElhinney.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

17 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

You're completely missing the point of the discussion. It's not about accusing show critics from not being able to handle book change at all. We're talking about specifics from the documentary where the actors are criticised by the author for not reading the books, which I believe is an inherently flawed argument. The doc hints that D&D might be deliberately discouraging the actors from reading the books by using some very skewed logic as evidence (e.g. actor reading up a lot on other roles but seemingly illogically refusing to do so for GoT). 

This and the alleged Tallisa's irrational reaction are all we've seen from the document so far. I consider both of these arguments petty and ridiculous. Maybe the rest of the doc will be well versed but if this is the selling point, I don't have huge hopes for the rest. And yeah, I'm generally biased against most conspiracy theories, particularly when there is a perfectly logical and much more likely explanation. 

It doesn't say much about the documentary however that those two points were ones he chose to use in his introduction. I too consider the Talisa point incredibly petty, almost the poster boy of every silly over reaction to a line of dialogue I've seen on here. That the maker of the doc views that line of dialogue as a worthy example of the sort of journalism he's advocating says a lot.