CotF and the White Walkers

[House Toad]

Isn't the reason why the WWs are back is because Mance went digging for the horn of winter to bring down the wall? Were the WWs always there? If the WWs were, what has prevented the WWs previously, because the WWs hadn't been seen in over 1000 years according to Sam's book-keeping of the Watch and no other records? Except Old Nan's tales a decendant of the Children. Wouldn't the Watch have previously encountered them prior, scouting for the WWs previously in their frequent Wildling encounters? Even Tyrion knew nothing, mocking the Watch's role as well as the realm who used the Watch as a glorified prison camp. Did Mance get spooked because the WWs had returned, or what had caused their return?

Did the lost of the pact with the Children protecting them from Winter cause the WWs to return, the pact was seemingly giving a seer to the Children in sacrifice. Blood Raven was the seer until a new seer is needed and Bran took the role? Doesn't the Heart-trees also sustain the seer for an age? We know the pact was a sacrifice from the sacrifice on the show, and also the sacrifice made by Caster?

I believe Craster was only sacrificing to the forest as a ritualistic prayer to the Old Gods, because he was weird to put it mildly, but a ritual that never ended north of the wall in the lands of winter, forgotten in the south because of the wall. The WWs had ceased from when the wall was built, importantly around the time of Brandon the Builder, suggesting he is the Raven? The Watch was created to warn the Starks when the WWs would return to honor the pact of when a seer would be needed. The Starks sharing a close relation to the Children, their house's words and their motto/saying. The descendants of the Children also guarding the north were the Reeds that also warned Bran when he is needed taking him to the Raven and Howland Reed preserving the timeline, what else?

There might be other legends and formulas added of how every couple years babies or heirs are sacrificed to serve the heartless gods of the forest. The boogeyman is coming Issac. Cough. It doesn't seem likely when these Gods are worshiped.

The Children lived in another plain of time, quite different to man, using druidly earthen magics and warrens of the forest. The Heart-trees, why are they called Heart-trees because of the sacrifice made, and their worship? A sacrifice that has carved the seeing faces in them to bleed. Why did man worship the Old Gods of the heart-trees, because of the sacrifice made that stopped the WWs and gave rise to the wall? These trees are rooted into time having a seeing face carved into them, they had spanned all over Westeros. Many were destroyed by different gods as religion changed and the Children like the WWs had disappeared? Didn't the Children create the WWs to defeat man? By trying to defeat man didn't they corrupted time, Hodor, the Bones, the mark on Bran, because weren't the Children's aims to kill man's beginning bringing death on man? However in doing so didn't it also cost them, because of the pact/sacrifice needed with man by entwining him into their warrens or magics?

 

 

 

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Ice Spider said:

 

Are you sure Leaf had an obsidian weapon?

 

Wrong. Watch again, take note of the pine cone grenades. Again, a silly point, no where did I say fire was effective against the Others, only the WW's. My point was it is the heat of the fire that matters.

Say who? Says you? Based on what? straw can penetrate metal giving the right velocity. Aka Arrows

And yet the WW's have not demonstrated any ability to combat an aerial target.  

 

 

As a quick thing I've just noticed in your writing, I use WW and Others interchangeably as they're called the "Others" in the books. WW aren't wights, they're separate, so I was confused just then when you wrote fire kills WW and not Others, as to me they're the same thing.

Meera stabbed a WW with the same sort of spear Leaf used. Leaf hit the chest and it was caught in the armour. Meera aimed for the neck, which makes sense given her lifestyle in the Neck. Watch it again - you'll see they both used an obsidian spear.

This shows progression of the WW; Sam stabbed one in the back and now they're wearing armour to overcome vulnerabilities. It's unclear if arrows penetrate their armour. Even if they did, the North is extremely windy, so arrows will be of limited use at long ranges. We've already seen a fight between the WW and the Night's Watch, who were in a great defensive position at the Fist. Admittedly, they didn't have obsidian arrows, but they did have fire and arrows and they were well aware that wights burn easily. Nonetheless, it was a complete rout.

I don't think it's the heat of the fire as much as the fact that it must be a fire that can't be extinguished by the Others' magic. The children were easily using pine cones against wights but not the WW themselves. Also, I rewatched the scene the the fires definitely part when the Others walk past them and only ignite once they've pulled away. Fire is definitely dangerous to them, since they extinguish it whenever they can. Only "frozen fire" can kill them, since it'll survive their magic.

And you're right, the WW haven't been seen wielding bows or anything in the air. Yet Dany's dragons also haven't been shown to have inexhaustible stamina nor do we know if they are discomforted by snow or can fly in the skies of the North. In which case, it's possible that the fight will be quite even.

As a final note that is unrelated to this, I don't mean anything personal. I think your reply was quite aggressive and also a bit surprising, since I wasn't really looking for an argument, just a discussion, and I thought it a bit strange you seemed so cross in your response.

[Ice Spider]

49 minutes ago, Yukle said:

As a quick thing I've just noticed in your writing, I use WW and Others interchangeably as they're called the "Others" in the books. WW aren't wights, they're separate, so I was confused just then when you wrote fire kills WW and not Others, as to me they're the same thing.[/quote]

 

My bad, I never meant to say WW were wights, wights are the risen dead zombie things. I use others and WW's interchangeably

Meera stabbed a WW with the same sort of spear Leaf used. Leaf hit the chest and it was caught in the armour. Meera aimed for the neck, which makes sense given her lifestyle in the Neck. Watch it again - you'll see they both used an obsidian spear.

I didn't say she didn't, just I am not sure she indeed had an obsidian spear (Leaf). You could very well be right. Point is, even if true, if Leaf was stronger and could have thrown the spear with more force, it might have penetrated/

This shows progression of the WW; Sam stabbed one in the back and now they're wearing armour to overcome vulnerabilities. It's unclear if arrows penetrate their armour. Even if they did, the North is extremely windy, so arrows will be of limited use at long ranges. We've already seen a fight between the WW and the Night's Watch, who were in a great defensive position at the Fist. Admittedly, they didn't have obsidian arrows, but they did have fire and arrows and they were well aware that wights burn easily. Nonetheless, it was a complete rout.

breast plates do not cover ones back, typically. I am not aware of any wardrobe change by the WW's. Remember what you said about arrows and wind, especially during the battle of Winterfell in an upcoming episode. At the battle of the Fist, the NW was badly outnumbered and unprepared. They panicked.

I don't think it's the heat of the fire as much as the fact that it must be a fire that can't be extinguished by the Others' magic. The children were easily using pine cones against wights but not the WW themselves. Also, I rewatched the scene the the fires definitely part when the Others walk past them and only ignite once they've pulled away. Fire is definitely dangerous to them, since they extinguish it whenever they can. Only "frozen fire" can kill them, since it'll survive their magic.

I disagree. Research the making of Valyrian steel. The difference in it and a normal sword is in the heat in which it was tempered. The same can be said for the making of obsidian glass, which is nothing more than sand, melted at extremely high temperatures. It is the only thing the two have in common.

And you're right, the WW haven't been seen wielding bows or anything in the air. Yet Dany's dragons also haven't been shown to have inexhaustible stamina nor do we know if they are discomforted by snow or can fly in the skies of the North. In which case, it's possible that the fight will be quite even.

Well, I am not sure how they handle the cold, but they have a ready made furnace should they get a little chilled. Stamina is of little concern, nothing said they have to fly into battle all the way from Meereen and back. Flight itself is actually a lot easier in colder/denser air. Visibility is the only concern here.

As a final note that is unrelated to this, I don't mean anything personal. I think your reply was quite aggressive and also a bit surprising, since I wasn't really looking for an argument, just a discussion, and I thought it a bit strange you seemed so cross in your response.

Nothing personal at all. I just disagree with you on many points.

[King Ned Stark]

It appears that creating the first Other was not sanctioned by the entirety of the Children.  I think Leaf and her group went rogue, it played as if they were unsure and doing something forbidden.  I'm starting to think that after the Last Hero was able to quell the Night's King and built the wall, that Leaf and her group were either banished beyond the wall and stripped of their powers, or they chose "exile" (and possibly infused their power into the Night King at the moment of sacrifice, or he was just such a powerful warg that they never could control him.)

[JonNoMore]

Does anyone know why there's only female CotF and male white walkers? 

[House Toad]

44 minutes ago, JonNoMore said:

Does anyone know why there's only female CotF and male white walkers? 

Equality? Or was there an'other significance? Don't we know that there are male children, from their descendants Jojen, and Howland reed? We know a man was sacrificed creating the WWs?

Somehow I doubt the male role in their society was blood of the virgin as all the females danced around their druidic seer commanding his asexual selections?

In other questions is the horn'o'winter the WWs or their weapons? By looking for it, haven't they become? If certain weapons destroy them, what is their weapon's purpose?

Who knows more shrooms, paradoxes, warrens. Time pasting, present, future what is any reality now from the paradox seen, its possibilities are infinite? Only the author/producers can fill in many of these blanks, impossible as a bystander. As there are any number of other possibly simple explanations to many patterns seen.

 

[grufolo]

On 23/05/2016 at 5:58 AM, ummester said:

Seduced by a CotF, more like.

It's funny, the whole shoving your sword through the heart thing with Nyssa Nyssa was actually a chick (albeit a little green one) stabbing a dude  

This is a very interesting observation

Can't the Last Hero be a CotF, Nissa Nissa being a human woman turned blueyes,

That's just tinfoil hat theories here, but ...?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

9 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Starks = First men

Dany = Andals

 

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

No. Daenerys is valyrian. Valyrians conquered westeros and andals less than 300 years ago.

[Ice Spider]

4 hours ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

No. Daenerys is valyrian. Valyrians conquered westeros and andals less than 300 years ago.

Andals > invaders from the east (essos) Chances are (although not much is written, that Valyrians are of Andal blood.

[Aegon_Blackfyre]

12 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

Andals > invaders from the east (essos) Chances are (although not much is written, that Valyrians are of Andal blood.

Its more likely that the Valyrians are simply cousins of the Andals, most likely sharing a common ancestor however branching off into different tribes and regions. From what i remember the Andals fled Essos to get away from the Valyrians expanding empire.

[chocobear11]

On 5/23/2016 at 5:36 AM, Hodor's Aunt said:

we don't know. In the books however there is one character that is heavily implied of being a CotF south of the wall. 

Who is the character heavily implied of being a CotF south of the wall?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

19 hours ago, Masha said:

No, this not the case. I think peace held and WW were either already created and dormant/under control OR rebel functions of CotF created them.

The whole CotF and Weirdwoods extermination was done by Andals as part of their compaign against the First Men. And Andals invaded about 800 to 1,000 years ago, right? The Long Night was 8,000 years ago, long before there were people named Andals and their faith existed, even before old Valyria was established (<5,000 years ago). And the only reason Andals moved to Westeros is to escape Dragonlords of Valyria ongoing conquest

Yes per the histories, the Pact was thousands of years before the Long Night.

 

The Pact lasted for 4,000 years before the enigmatic Others invaded from the uttermost north, bringing death and destruction to both races, during an extended period of winter known as the Long Night. The children of the forest joined with the First Men, lead by thelast hero, to fight against the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. Eventually the Others were driven back into the Lands of Always Winter.

 

Now as for the invasion of the Andals being likely thousands of years after, that's certainly the story of history, but it's also so long ago, the timeline could be wrong.  But as I said, it didn't have to be the invasion of the Andals, it could have just been some other war between the First Men themselves that broke the Pact.  There are certainly Rhyonish legends about a great darkness where the great river froze, which sounds an awful lot like the Long Night.  And the Rhyonish were the ones that drove the Andals out of Essos.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I think the Starks are a combination of Children and First Men.  At some point men mated with Chidlren which is why some men have the warg and greenseer powers.  

[Ice Spider]

1 hour ago, TheTowerOfJoy said:

Yes per the histories, the Pact was thousands of years before the Long Night.

 

 

 

 

Now as for the invasion of the Andals being likely thousands of years after, that's certainly the story of history, but it's also so long ago, the timeline could be wrong.  But as I said, it didn't have to be the invasion of the Andals, it could have just been some other war between the First Men themselves that broke the Pact.  There are certainly Rhyonish legends about a great darkness where the great river froze, which sounds an awful lot like the Long Night.  And the Rhyonish were the ones that drove the Andals out of Essos.

The Andal invasion started 6,000 years ago and happened in waves, over centuries. Before them, there was no written history,

 

[TheTowerOfJoy]

5 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

The Andal invasion started 6,000 years ago and happened in waves, over centuries. Before them, there was no written history,

Yes, and we're told the Pact was "somewhere" between 10,000 and 12,000 years ago (apparently the scholars disagree).  And then the Long night was "somewhere" between 2000-4000 years after the Pact (again, scholars disagree).  So if you took the 10,000 number and added the 4,000 number then you end up at about the time of the Andal invasion.

 

My point being that we don't know exactly when the Long Night happened because it was before recorded history, except for Asshai.

[Ice Spider]

10 minutes ago, TheTowerOfJoy said:

Yes, and we're told the Pact was "somewhere" between 10,000 and 12,000 years ago (apparently the scholars disagree).  And then the Long night was "somewhere" between 2000-4000 years after the Pact (again, scholars disagree).  So if you took the 10,000 number and added the 4,000 number then you end up at about the time of the Andal invasion.

 

My point being that we don't know exactly when the Long Night happened because it was before recorded history, except for Asshai.

I'm not sure if I am arguing against you are agreeing with you. What I am trying to say, is, it is possible that the two events were happening at the same time, or in close proximity to each other. From Sam we know that there was actually only 697 LC's not 999. That's about exactly 6,000 years since the wall was built.

The parallel I am trying to draw here is one of history repeating itself.

[Black Crow]

Sam: The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. The old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-eyes, Knight’s King…we say that you’re the nine-hundred-and-ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, but the oldest list I’ve found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during-“

 

“Long ago,” Jon broke in…

According to legend the Wall was built 8,000 years ago at the end of the Long Night and has been manned by the Watch ever since. Jon Snow is reckoned to be the 998^th Lord Commander which would imply a very reasonable average of 8 years for each of his predecessors. Bring that forward to 6,000 years and the average drops to an average of 6 years apiece, while 4,000 years ago…

But there’s more to it than that. Why was Sam cut off? Because the list was written during what? Evidently something that would invalidate the chronology. Let’s look again at the list. Now the point about any list of Lord Commanders is that depending on how its arranged it will either begin or end with the current incumbent. Once again, although Jon cuts him off, it’s easy to work out that if the oldest - not the longest but the shortest list had 674 names it was only compiled about 324 Lord Commanders ago, or if we apply the 8 year average approximately 2600 years ago.

And that’s where it really gets interesting, because let’s stick with the World Book date of 6,000 years ago for the Long Night and the foundation of the Wall. That means, allowing for a tolerable degree of inexactitude the list was probably compiled halfway through – at the point when Castle Black and mayhap all the other castles were built.

 

Now OK you can argue that the arithmetic changes if you try to squeeze a reputed 998 Lord Commanders into 6,000 years rather than 8,000 years but all of this is why Sam is unhappy with the list and why we’re not allowed to know why.

 

[Johnston]

20 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Starks = First men

Dany = Andals

 

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

My Show verse crackpot.

The dude that got shived whilst tied to a tree was/is a Stark. 

The pact was three way between COTF/WW/First Men.  Stark on the Wall and a Stark in Winterfell being part of it thereby ensuring his line would forever carry on and prosper. 

 

Being First Man/Stark he was/is a Greenseer.  (Maybe the COTF fucked up and turned the wrong person hence why he went Skynet.  He was too powerful for them to control).   He sends the WW towards the wall knowing shit was about to go down and the pact was about to go tits up. 

 

End game. Reclaim his home.  Winterfell. Maybe to put a Stark back  in there.  Maybe for himself since this gen made such a mess of things. 

 

Why kill Not!Bloodraven.  Because he was trying to turn Bran and use him against the WW.  If he's that powerful he can see Bran in a vision AND even touch him leaving a mark on him,  If Bran is a threat why do something to him when they were together in the vision? 

 

[dornishdame]

5 hours ago, chocobear11 said:

Who is the character heavily implied of being a CotF south of the wall?

Are you thinking of the Ghost of High Heart? She is an albino dwarf woman, and I know that some have speculated that she has CotF blood. She was associated with Jenny of Oldstones and in ASOS gave numerous accurate predictions. 

Also - regarding the writing of history - one theme that has been running through this season (and Bran's arc particularly) is that of history being written by the victors........Ned's victory over Arthur Dayne for example.  Who is to say that the written history we have been given both in the TV series and in the books corresponds with what actually happened? Who is to say that the timelines we have been given are correct? 

[Black Crow]

The timelines are mince