Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[Mladen]

10 hours ago, Wilnova said:

She trusted these very nice people despite knowing these things about them. She is then surprised that these very 'nice' people betrayed her trust, goes to the wall searching for her brother, finds him disillusioned and tired of everything, convinces him to fight for the North and then proceeds to distrust him. Because the very nice people she met before betrayed her. If anyone should have trust issues, it's Jon who was betrayed and murdered by a child he took under his wing.

The one condition for people to betray you is to actually first trust them. So, the fact that they betray her and that she felt betrayed is enough to cause some trust issues. Same goes with Lysa and LF. Sansa trusted them, they endangered her and now, logically, she has hard time opening all of her cards to anyone. 

As for Jon, it is not like he also completely trusts Sansa and everyone around him. He was puzzled and was thinking about what the cloak actually means and the mere question of how she did find about BF is a sign that he is also thinking deeply about this. So, Jon also has these issues. They both do.

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Seriously, this trust thing has been debunked both on the show itself and in the behind the scenes stuff.

Actually, every interview supports it. Ms Turner spoke about keeping things to her own, one of Ds spoke about how Sansa is still not ready to come clean with Jon. Actually, what none of them said is that LF successfully manipulated Sansa as many people believe here.

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Sansa lied to Jon for one reason. She wants power over the information regarding LF/Vale and LF himself. She does not want to share that with anyone. She does not want Jon and Davos to make decisions regarding them. She wants to do that. She is looking out for her own interests.  Not that of Jon or Rickon or the North or anyone else. She wants to project and show that she too has power and by holding onto valuable information about the Vale, she does. And THIS is understandable and normal for someone who went through what she did.

She is waiting for the right time to reveal this information and bring the Vale into the picture to help the North. The only question is to see if LF's jab about Jon being her half brother, really struck home. At the end of the battle of Winterfell, with LF/Vale troops and a possible Tully army, Sansa would have more power than Jon. If she/LF proclaims her as Queen in the North, we will find out which way the wind blows.

 

I agree, but I think people should not equalize that her wanting power over LF for herself and her wanting power to become Queen in the North. Essentially, she is not stabbing Jon in the back because she is making him a Stark. She is literally making him according to the image she had of Ned. That was what cloak scene was about. She didn't just make a dress for her, she also made a cloak for him. Cloak that is specific copy of Ned's. Sansa may be playing a long term game (well, Benioff said that she is thinking several steps in advance) but I am not inclined to believe that she will be seriously pushing for her claim, knowing that three of her brothers are alive.

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I find show Sansa to be so much more interesting than her book counterpart at this point. I am sure book Sansa will get here eventually. But that show Sansa is already plotting and undermining Jon behind his back to achieve her own goals is interesting to watch. Jon comes off as gormless and a poor, trusting sod to be honest. He's become boring and Sansa has become interesting.

Is she undermining him? LF is a dangerous player and I think we would all agree, that both Sansa and Jon would be much better not owing LF anything. Yes, she withheld important info, but at the same time, she is not undermining his cause. Again, about the cloak...

That cloak is important, people... For someone whose one of the most important skills is sewing, that cloak speaks volumes.

And, finally, Jon has always been semi-boring

[Smoke317]

7 hours ago, throney said:

 

[Smoke317]

8 hours ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

good point from a arya fanatic fan, you speak like Sansa is not a stark, who is the last person that sansa betrayed him?

Starks don't kill starks, starks don't betray starks

If Sansa tries to betray Jon, Sansa will only be a stark in name not action.  Thus you're right Starks don't kill Starks or betray Starks but Sansa'a actions haven't always been Stark like. She's more of a Southern girl. Probably got more Cat in her than Ned. So Sansa's possible betrayal of Jon would technically be done as a Stark because she has the name but it'd really be done as a Baelish because she'd be LF's protege.

[Smoke317]

7 hours ago, throney said:

Come on, dude. Don't feed the trolls, if you ignore them they go away.

So because I don't like Sansa's lying and manipulating her brother all because of LF's mind games, I'm a troll???  The only troll here is the fool that's drinking the Sansa kool aid and is too zealous to call her for her mistakes. Hell even D&D and Sophie Turner said Sansa wasn't acting like a pure Stark and she didn't feel like a Stark anymore. So speaking of which, keep ignoring the facts and then you go away troll...

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

If Sansa tries to betray Jon, Sansa will only be a stark in name not action.  Thus you're right Starks don't kill Starks or betray Starks but Sansa'a actions haven't always been Stark like. She's more of a Southern girl. Probably got more Cat in her than Ned. So Sansa's possible betrayal of Jon would technically be done as a Stark because she has the name but it'd really be done as a Baelish because she'd be LF's protege.

So, what was Lyanna? Arguably, her mistake costed her father and brother their lives... As for that matter, Catelyn's highest ideal was the family, while Ned's was the honor. And when we compare two of her parents, Sansa shares far more with Ned, than with Carelyn. 

1 minute ago, Smoke317 said:

Hell even D&D and Sophie Turner said Sansa wasn't acting like a pure Stark and she didn't feel like a Stark anymore. So speaking of which, keep ignoring the facts and then you go away troll...

Yeah, that wasn't the point of those interview. Weiss obviously used "Stark way" as the reference to honesty, trust, even blind naivete, something Starks were known at the beginning. It is not intended to question her Stark name, but to point out that Sansa lost the naivete Starks are known for. But, that is something each of the Stark kids had to abandon in order to survive. Now, given that they are getting closer, with some time, they will completely open towards each other, but naturally, it won't happen over night. 

 

[Drz]

17 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Because Bran will declare him King. He won't do it until then and then only reluctantly. Jon is all about family. No lies. No misdirection. He's battled his internal demons of being a bastard and passed this test with flying colors.  You'd think he'd be inclined to take it all for himself if he was a selfish person. Most in this series would. But that has never been his nature.  Thus far anyway. I wonder if Sansa's power games will lead to Jon turning darker?

Why would Bran declare Jon as King? Bran comes before him in the line of succession.

[permaximum]

Although I didn't want Jon to be resurrected and the show to be cheesy and cheap fan service like every other show, I can't stand this Sansa Stark and her trusty sidekick Jon Snow now. Same with Cersei and Jaime. Same with Tyrion and Varys. Jon, Jaime and Varys are all just trusty sidekicks now. Not to mention Roose Bolton's cheesy death and a foxy and sinister but not so-smart Ramsay's uber power and villainy.

Could you imagine D&D to plan Ned Stark's execution at the beginning, Tywin Lannister's death, the red and purple weddings, the Mountain and The Viper encounter, Cersei's walk of atonement, Night's Watch's betrayel and Jon Snow's death, the Hodor reveal, Littlefinger and Varys' schemes in such epic and realistic ways?

This is what you get when there's no George RR Martin that plan Hodor's origins in 1991 long before everything. It was no mere chance that an episode that contain George RR Martin's tiny bit of planning rated highest in this season. Hopefully Martin shared as much as he could about everything going forward and these common writers didn't completely go for something different for the end.

[Les Météores D]

47 minutes ago, Drz said:

Why would Bran declare Jon as King? Bran comes before him in the line of succession.

Because he has to become the new Bloodraven, that's a full-time job.

[Drz]

1 minute ago, Les Météores D said:

Because he has to become the new Bloodraven, that's a full-time job.

Yeah but Sansa comes before Jon, but are we now implying if Jon becomes a Stark he'd just take Winterfell infront of her?

[permaximum]

Bran > Rickon > Sansa > Arya. Jon has no claim. He's a bastard. None will follow him while the other 4 still live. That's the entire point of Ramsay murdering his father and his half-brother.

[Smoke317]

6 hours ago, Drz said:

Why would Bran declare Jon as King? Bran comes before him in the line of succession.

Because who's to say Bran would want to be Lord of Winterfell or King in the North. Can he sire an heir?  If Bran survives it's looking like he will become a true master of whisperers and a top adviser to Jon. Just like Bloodraven was. But it was a just a guess. If Bran wants the title, Jon will not take it from him. 

[Smoke317]

5 hours ago, permaximum said:

Bran > Rickon > Sansa > Arya. Jon has no claim. He's a bastard. None will follow him while the other 4 still live. That's the entire point of Ramsay murdering his father and his half-brother.

You're gonna be very surprised when the Northern Lords declare Jon King in the North. It won't be Sansa as Queen in the North and Jon as her hand or War General.  Jon's gonna get the nod because this is a time of war and Winter is Coming.  The North needs a strong warrior leading and Jon will be that person. I just wonder how Sansa will react to the news. Will she say to herself Littlefinger was right about my half brother having his army and be glad she kept her Vale trump card in her back pocket?

[Smoke317]

5 hours ago, Drz said:

Yeah but Sansa comes before Jon, but are we now implying if Jon becomes a Stark he'd just take Winterfell infront of her?

Jon's true focus is on the War vs the Nights King.  That's the big picture. Sansa's narrow focus on the little picture ("playing the game" & reclaiming Winterfell for power) will cost the North valuable resources in the true war to come.  I don't think many in the North will be happy with Sansa in charge and Littlefinger in her ear pulling the strings rather it be perception or reality.  Neither are focused on the big picture. They would have just cost the North over a thousand soldiers by "playing the game".  Are Sansa Baelish and the Vale knights gonna beat the Nights King and thousands upon thousands of wights?  I think not. The North needs s leader focused on the impending doom about to come over/through the wall.  Now if Sansa had Tyrion in her ear rather than Littlefinger, Sansa would be making decisions with much more sound judgement. Too bad she's still being manipulated by LF. 

[Mladen]

Just now, Smoke317 said:

Jon's true focus is on the War vs the Nights King.  That's the big picture. Sansa's narrow focus on the little picture ("playing the game" & reclaiming Winterfell for power) will cost the North valuable resources in the true war to come.

Getting back the WF is essential for the future War of the Dawn 2.0. The whole point of taking Boltons down is to unite the North for the upcoming fight.

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I don't think many in the North will be happy with Sansa in charge and Littlefinger in her ear pulling strings rather it be perception or reality.

Given how producers and Ms Turner actually focused on Sansa lying being her choice, I can't understand the argument that LF is manipulating her. The decision to lie to Jon was hers.

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Are Sansa Baelish and the Vale knights gonna beat the Nights King and thousands upon thousands of wights?

So, you want to say that the well-rested army of the only kingdom that didn't fight so far, with the wealth and food won't be important in the wars to come? I don't think so.

17 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Because who's to say Bran would want to be Lord of Winterfell or King in the North. Can he sire an heir?  If Bran survives it's looking like he will become a true master of whisperers and a top adviser to Jon. Just like Bloodraven was. But it was a just a guess. If Bran wants the title, Jon will not take it from him. 

If Bran renounces his right and Rickon dies by the hand of the Ramsay, Jon will be trumping Sansa, not the other way around. So far no one here actually made any sort of the argument that Sansa even wants to rule North, but if she did, and that is a huge IF, she has the legitimate claim to do so. Jon, on the other hand doesn't. Although, to be honest, claims mean so little these days.

15 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

You're gonna be very surprised when the Northern Lords declare Jon King in the North.

While I would agree that is the most likely scenario, it also isn't set in stone.

[Smoke317]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

Getting back the WF is essential for the future War of the Dawn 2.0. The whole point of taking Boltons down is to unite the North for the upcoming fight.

Given how producers and Ms Turner actually focused on Sansa lying being her choice, I can't understand the argument that LF is manipulating her. The decision to lie to Jon was hers.

So, you want to say that the well-rested army of the only kingdom that didn't fight so far, with the wealth and food won't be important in the wars to come? I don't think so.

If Bran renounces his right and Rickon dies by the hand of the Ramsay, Jon will be trumping Sansa, not the other way around. So far no one here actually made any sort of the argument that Sansa even wants to rule North, but if she did, and that is a huge IF, she has the legitimate claim to do so. Jon, on the other hand doesn't. Although, to be honest, claims mean so little these days.

While I would agree that is the most likely scenario, it also isn't set in stone.

You're burning this Sansa thread up Risto. I love the debates. But the show clearly showed Littlefinger leave her with that last line about Jon being her half brother and it clearly affected her.  I don't know if she would have lied to Jon if not for that line. Maybe she would have. But she's still withholding valuable resources. And I think the Vale forces will play a crucial role if they are commanded by the proper leader. I just don't think that leader is Sansa with LF manipulating things. They aren't focused on the big picture. 

[WolfClaw]

1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

Jon's true focus is on the War vs the Nights King.  That's the big picture. Sansa's narrow focus on the little picture ("playing the game" & reclaiming Winterfell for power) will cost the North valuable resources in the true war to come.  I don't think many in the North will be happy with Sansa in charge and Littlefinger in her ear pulling the strings rather it be perception or reality.  Neither are focused on the big picture. They would have just cost the North over a thousand soldiers by "playing the game".  Are Sansa Baelish and the Vale knights gonna beat the Nights King and thousands upon thousands of wights?  I think not. The North needs s leader focused on the impending doom about to come over/through the wall.  Now if Sansa had Tyrion in her ear rather than Littlefinger, Sansa would be making decisions with much more sound judgement. Too bad she's still being manipulated by LF. 

 

Jon states that

“We can't defend the North from the Walkers and the South from the Boltons. If we want to survive we need Winterfell”

 

The Boltons would attack even if Jon and Sansa would not have tried to raise an army against them. This matter is not a power play for Sansa and Jon, but it is a matter of survival. They don't do this because they are power hungry, they do this in order to survive and have a fighting chance against what is coming.

 

Vale's knights do not belong to Sansa, they do not even belong to the Littlefinger. They are under the command of Robin Arryn. Really do you think that it is about playing the game? And do you think that in a crucial moment, they could “trust” Littlefinger? His offers are not freely given and they cannot afford that, right now. Plus Vale does not belong to the North. So even if Sansa had accept his “offer”, Vale's knights would not have being under Jon's command.

 

 

[sun moon stars rain]

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 But she's still withholding valuable resources. And I think the Vale forces will play a crucial role if they are commanded by the proper leader. I just don't think that leader is Sansa with LF manipulating things. They aren't focused on the big picture. 

The problem is Sansa won't be able to explain away her lie if Rickon dies.  That's what is disturbing.  I understand LF can't be trusted, but if you don't take the Vale offer now, how many people are going to die because you held back this army info?  Jon will not thank Sansa for it, when a majority of Wildlings die and then, their "wild" little brother.  I know Rickon is not really important, but it's a sticking point.  I don't see Jon forgiving Sansa for that.  I hope it play out different, but the show emphasized the lie with Brienne questioning it.  Not good for Sansa, unless Jon finds out sooner rather than too late and they have it out.  I hope that happens.

 

[permaximum]

MAJOR FUTURE SPOILERS 

Spoiler

Someone leaked what will happen. Shortly, Jon learns about the Vale army somehow, Sansa will be reunited with LF and they will come with the Vale army at the last minute to defeat Boltons. Jon will say something along the lines of "What kept you so long?". Wun-Wun will be killed by Ramsay (an arrow in the eye), Jon will beat Ramsay pretty bad and then imprison him at Winterfell's cells. But later, LF will release the hounds (after reminding Ramsay that he promised he would never hurt her) and Ramsay's story ends.

It seems there won't be much tension between Jon and Sansa.

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

About Lady Bolton and trust:

1-In the beggining is was the then Youn Lady Stark who betrayed her family, first with the Arya and Butcher's son affair and later when she talk Queen Cersei of Ned's plan to send her to Winterfell.

2-Littlefinger offer take her out of King's Landing when Robb was still alive, the little lady refused because she wanted to marry Loras Tyrell.

3-Once Littlefinger save her and took her to the Vale, she was caught by her aunt while the now Lady Lannister was kissing Lady Arryn husband.

4-When Littlefinger talk to her about the marriage with Ramsay Bolton she refused at first but later she willingly accepted the union.

I'd say that Lady Sansa Bolton is the one who must not be trusted

[Mladen]

6 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

I'd say that Lady Sansa Lannister Bolton is the one who must not be trusted

Given that fanfiction is explicitly forbidden on this site, I would politely ask you to take the "Sansa Lannister Bolton" commentaries somewhere else. Thank you very much.