Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I want to like her but the books painted her as a bit of a social climber, somewhat superficial, and a lover of status.  

Sansa is a daughter of arguably three most powerful men in the country. She is not a social climber, she is already on the top of the social ladder. And beside that, the books depict her as someone who rejects the claim constantly. Throughout books 2-4, all she wants is to find a man who will love her, not her claim and riches, castles and great life is not her priority. 

6 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Now after a lovely reunion, we see Sansa lie to Jon.  But she just doesn't lie, she makes comments that hurt him in a place where he is very vulnerable.  The comments about Ramsay being a bastard and the North followed Ramsay, so the North will follow bastard Jon just seemed deliberately hurtful.  Up to this moment, I had never considered Sansa cruel.  Either the lie was a mistake or Sansa has learned a few things she needs to unlearn.  

Why people don't say Davos hurt Jon's feelings? It was him after all that said Jon isn't a Stark. Sansa rejected that notion saying that people will gather around Jon. She actually made him a cloak to evoke the memory of Ned. Sansa wasn't cruel, but she said what needed to be said. Though Jon has no Stark name, she does, which gives some legitimacy to the cause, and if people gather around Ramsay, they will also gather around Jon. Perhaps not the best situation for Jon, but the truth nonetheless.

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

When (and if) there is a R+L reveal, I think Jon will become immensely more attractive to Sansa, and I mean politically at least, possibly romantically as well.  I recognize that thought as cynical but I find that the character of Sansa makes me watch out for her, in a wary way. I want to like her but the books painted her as a bit of a social climber, somewhat superficial, and a lover of status.  

Now after a lovely reunion, we see Sansa lie to Jon.  But she just doesn't lie, she makes comments that hurt him in a place where he is very vulnerable.  The comments about Ramsay being a bastard and the North followed Ramsay, so the North will follow bastard Jon just seemed deliberately hurtful.  Up to this moment, I had never considered Sansa cruel.  Either the lie was a mistake or Sansa has learned a few things she needs to unlearn.  

Check my previous post.

[HellasLEAF]

Jon doesn't strike me as wanting to be named King of the north, or warden, or anything of that ilk.  

Even at Castle Black, leadership was thrust upon him.  He did not seek it and clearly, was never really comfortable in the role.  I don't think Sansa really has anything to worry about there and Jon has also made no indication (as of yet) that he seeks titles, or even wanted to wage further war.  

 

I think he definitely wants to help Sansa and all Stark's reclaim Winterfell, in order to be better prepared to fight an advancing white walker army.  That's his motivation right now imo.  The North is unstable and under prepared for what is to come and he knows it.  They need Winterfell and thus, he will help Sansa.

[Les Météores D]

It appears both Sophie Turner and D&D have confirmed she doesn't completely trust Jon when it comes to LF (whatever that means... and it can mean anything) and that she doesn't want to share the right information because it'll mainly benefit her. Anyway she's no match for LF on the long run yet, hopefully she'll wise up. I mean, come on, she fell right into the "half-brother" trap just like LF knew she would. And we know the Blackfish will be under siege, something he knows as well. 

[lakin1013]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Sansa is a daughter of arguably three most powerful men in the country. She is not a social climber, she is already on the top of the social ladder. And beside that, the books depict her as someone who rejects the claim constantly. Throughout books 2-4, all she wants is to find a man who will love her, not her claim and riches, castles and great life is not her priority. 

Why people don't say Davos hurt Jon's feelings? It was him after all that said Jon isn't a Stark. Sansa rejected that notion saying that people will gather around Jon. She actually made him a cloak to evoke the memory of Ned. Sansa wasn't cruel, but she said what needed to be said. Though Jon has no Stark name, she does, which gives some legitimacy to the cause, and if people gather around Ramsay, they will also gather around Jon. Perhaps not the best situation for Jon, but the truth nonetheless.

In re to your first point - I read the books too.  What I remember is a girl whose head was turned by handsome knights, tournaments, long lovely ballads, and lemon cakes.  She liked to sew, and was generally disposed to the feminine arts. That is what I used for evidence of status, and superficiality.  In terms of social climbing, I used her treatment of Jon, as modeled by her mother, as evidence of some small slips in manners and grace. The fact that she took pains to apologize to Jon for her previous behavior, then promptly lies to him, makes me wary of her.  Jon doesn't know this. but we do.  They wouldn't show it (she lies),  then call attention to it (Brienne asking), then give her no response (Sansa silence) without it having some significance.  Troubling to me.

Re Davos.  Who cares if a someone you do not know well insults you?  But if a family member that you trust, who just asked for forgiveness, insults you, it is more like a betrayal, a small cruelty that can build up.  Or not.  It depends on what the show does with this small odd situation. 

[Jane99]

46 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

She liked to sew, and was generally disposed to the feminine arts. That is what I used for evidence of status, and superficiality.

I'm sorry, but WTF? I realise this wasn't the only evidence you put forward for your claim, but sewing and "feminine arts" aren't evidence of superficiality. Sewing - and sewing well - was an absolutely necessary skill for the period. Textile work is skilled work and takes up a substantial amount of time and effort. For every hour Jon and Robb spent in the practice yard with swords, Sansa would have spent practicing with her needle. Hundreds, if not thousands of hours of practice to develop a necessary skill is not superficiality just because that skill is often more associated with women.

In an environment like the North the ability to make adequate clothing could literally be a matter of life and death. Furthermore, sewing well is a skill that can earn money - if push came to shove, Sansa could support herself as a seamstress, which I don't consider a superficial thing. Similarly, the desire and ability to create elaborate embroidery is only superficial if you consider art and creativity as a whole to be superficial, instead of, say, one of the fundamental driving forces of human nature. I don't say that Sansa is on the verge of creating the Westerosi equivalent of the Bayeux Tapestry, but from her wolf embroidery it's clear that she's capable of that level of work, as a result of sheer dedication and hard work at her craft, and that is certainly not superficial either. 

I can't believe that even needs to be said.

[Mladen]

51 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

In re to your first point - I read the books too. 

I never questioned that I just think your assertions were in contradiction to what Sansa has been in the past 4 books and are limited to only one installment of this series.

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What I remember is a girl whose head was turned by handsome knights, tournaments, long lovely ballads, and lemon cakes.  She liked to sew, and was generally disposed to the feminine arts. That is what I used for evidence of status, and superficiality. 

Being a woman is superficial? Sansa was someone who believed in pageantry, fairytales and yes, she was a bit snobbish. She was a product of the upbringing and society she lived in. All her siblings demonstrated the same characteristics only in different ways.

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 In terms of social climbing, I used her treatment of Jon, as modeled by her mother, as evidence of some small slips in manners and grace. 

Well, that is not what social climbing is. Sansa couldn't have been a social climber as she was literally on the mere top of the ladder.

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The fact that she took pains to apologize to Jon for her previous behavior, then promptly lies to him, makes me wary of her.  Jon doesn't know this. but we do.  They wouldn't show it (she lies),  then call attention to it (Brienne asking), then give her no response (Sansa silence) without it having some significance.  Troubling to me.

It wasn't painful for her, it was sincere. She wanted her brother to know that she is not what she was and not allow some old grudge to stay in the way of their relationship. But, Sansa has some trust issues. And for someone who survived what she did, it is normal. She also wants to stand on her own, not to be dependent on LF, Jon or anyone as for that matter. People see that talk with LF so narrowly, not allowing to see that LF didn't bring discord between Jon and Sansa, it was her traumatized past that made her keep that information for herself.

Although I find the lie problematic on different accounts and think it will cause a certain fallout, I see no maliciousness here. I think Brienne/Sansa conversation actually showed that Sansa didn't come to the stage where she is so secure she can trust the people around her. She lost that. I am of an opinion that some time with Jon may prove to be rather beneficial for her.

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Re Davos.  Who cares if a someone you do not know well insults you?  But if a family member that you trust, who just asked for forgiveness, insults you, it is more like a betrayal, a small cruelty that can build up.  Or not.  It depends on what the show does with this small odd situation. 

Actually, if you admit Davos offended Jon, then Sansa's reaction can't be interpreted in any other way but as standing up for Jon. But Sansa is also very realistic here. She understands the power of name, as she has already been used in those purposes. But, the entire point of her response to Davos is to actually make a point Jon has every right to summon Northerners. Couple that with her making him cloak like Ned's and you see that talking about cruelty and betrayal is actually rather obsolete. 

21 minutes ago, Jane99 said:

I'm sorry, but WTF? I realise this wasn't the only evidence you put forward for your claim, but sewing and "feminine arts" aren't evidence of superficiality. Sewing - and sewing well - was an absolutely necessary skill for the period. Textile work is skilled work and takes up a substantial amount of time and effort. For every hour Jon and Robb spent in the practice yard with swords, Sansa would have spent practicing with her needle. Hundreds, if not thousands of hours of practice to develop a necessary skill is not superficiality just because that skill is often more associated with women.

In an environment like the North the ability to make adequate clothing could literally be a matter of life and death. Furthermore, sewing well is a skill that can earn money - if push came to shove, Sansa could support herself as a seamstress, which I don't consider a superficial thing. That is not superficial. Similarly, the desire and ability to create elaborate embroidery is only superficial if you consider art and creativity as a whole to be superficial, instead of, say, one of the fundamental driving forces of human nature. I don't say that Sansa is on the verge of creating the Westerosi equivalent of the Bayeux Tapestry, but from her wolf embroidery it's clear that she's capable of that level of work, as a result of sheer dedication and hard work at her craft, and that is certainly not superficial either. 

I can't believe that even needs to be said.

More than that, the embroidery and sewing is here put in the role of the tool in game of thrones. Sansa made herself a dress that will remind people around her who she is, just as she made Jon that cloak that will evoke memories of Ned. Sansa, better than anyone in the North, understands the power of those symbols, so she is using them to their own advantage. Because when people see the beautiful girl with Stark direwolf sewn on her dress and Ned's son looking exactly like him, people will think twice before rejecting them. The last episode gave us a wonderful example of how those feminine skills are put into good use when it comes to game of thrones.

[lakin1013]

18 minutes ago, Risto said:

 Couple that with her making him cloak like Ned's and you see that talking about cruelty and betrayal is actually rather obsolete. 

 

You make many good points and often, I am guilty of comparing Sansa to Arya, who I find much more straightforward and less girly (for want of a better term).

However I found the cloak making to be more manipulative than gift-worthy.  I saw that as Sansa trying to resurrect Ned in people's minds.  I do not fault this, it is politically astute. I just don't see it as a 'gift' for Jon.  I simply see it as a smart maneuver for their currently shared goals.  And that makes me wary of her again.  I want to like Sansa very much but there is always a certain distance with the way the character is written, and my perspective as a reader and viewer.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Jon will be more easily accepted by Northern Lords. Sansa married a Bolton and by show means, did so willingly. I would think there would be a lot of explaining to do by Sansa as to how she became "Lady Bolton". Those answers, should spell doom for Littlefinger but I am not holding my breath for logic in the show Universe.

[Wilnova]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

 But, Sansa has some trust issues. And for someone who survived what she did, it is normal. .

Lets look at all the people Sansa has trusted so far:

Cersei, a woman who orders Sansa's pet wolf killed.

Joffrey, who takes sadistic pleasure in torturing Mycah

LF, who killed Joffrey and the previous hand of the king using underhanded means.

She trusted these very nice people despite knowing these things about them. She is then surprised that these very 'nice' people betrayed her trust, goes to the wall searching for her brother, finds him disillusioned and tired of everything, convinces him to fight for the North and then proceeds to distrust him. Because the very nice people she met before betrayed her. If anyone should have trust issues, it's Jon who was betrayed and murdered by a child he took under his wing.

Seriously, this trust thing has been debunked both on the show itself and in the behind the scenes stuff. I don't know why people keep peddling it as a reason. Sansa directly tells Brienne that she does trust Jon. That is why she is asking Brienne to leave her and go to Riverrun. Because she trusts Jon to keep her safe. Jon is Jon. He is not suddenly going to give an evil smirk and hand her over to the Boltons.

And lets look at the people she still does trust : She expects the Karstarks to be loyal despite Robb chopping off Karstark's head. She trust's LF information about the Blackfish and sends Brienne there.

Sansa lied to Jon for one reason. She wants power over the information regarding LF/Vale and LF himself. She does not want to share that with anyone. She does not want Jon and Davos to make decisions regarding them. She wants to do that. She is looking out for her own interests.  Not that of Jon or Rickon or the North or anyone else. She wants to project and show that she too has power and by holding onto valuable information about the Vale, she does. And THIS is understandable and normal for someone who went through what she did.

She is waiting for the right time to reveal this information and bring the Vale into the picture to help the North. The only question is to see if LF's jab about Jon being her half brother, really struck home. At the end of the battle of Winterfell, with LF/Vale troops and a possible Tully army, Sansa would have more power than Jon. If she/LF proclaims her as Queen in the North, we will find out which way the wind blows.

I find show Sansa to be so much more interesting than her book counterpart at this point. I am sure book Sansa will get here eventually. But that show Sansa is already plotting and undermining Jon behind his back to achieve her own goals is interesting to watch. Jon comes off as gormless and a poor, trusting sod to be honest. He's become boring and Sansa has become interesting.

[throney]

I love Sansa's needlework and it seems she's a leather worker as well. I feel that it must be therapeutic for her. It's fairly rhythmic and repetitive work. 

I've heard people argue that she only made him a little wolf compared to hers as further evidence of her manipulation Jon, I think that is stretching the manipulation angle a bit too much. Did Ned's cloak have a the wolf imprint?

I am not sure if anyone has brought it up yet. But how did Sansa and Brienne manage to leave Castle Black without anyone knowing? Her brother is former/current Lord Commander, she ia an heir to Winterfell and there are the small matters of the WW and her estranged husband. Plus wouldn't the little war council be privy too all communications coming to Castle Black, especially one with a mockingbird seal? I know this is the show, so plot holes are in abundance but this is a little ridiculous. The Watch should be more vigilant.

[Pandean]

I really don't understand how everyone can just jump to the worst possible conclusions about the situation between Sansa and Jon. I'm not sure if it's engrained Sansa hate or overanalysis, but I can't see anything wrong with what she did other than lie--and I think the lie wasn't intended to be for bad reasons.

 

Like; the idea that Sansa is using Jon as a stepping stool to get to the top and manipulating him with the cloak, etc. is absurd.

 

And yeah; Sansa put her trust in the right people. But I find it weird that people still pull up her character in Season 1 especially with the Mycah scene as examples because it's obviously clear she's changed since then. 

 

And when has sewing or liking feminine things made someone superficial--

3 hours ago, Jane99 said:

I'm sorry, but WTF? I realise this wasn't the only evidence you put forward for your claim, but sewing and "feminine arts" aren't evidence of superficiality. Sewing - and sewing well - was an absolutely necessary skill for the period. Textile work is skilled work and takes up a substantial amount of time and effort. For every hour Jon and Robb spent in the practice yard with swords, Sansa would have spent practicing with her needle. Hundreds, if not thousands of hours of practice to develop a necessary skill is not superficiality just because that skill is often more associated with women.

In an environment like the North the ability to make adequate clothing could literally be a matter of life and death. Furthermore, sewing well is a skill that can earn money - if push came to shove, Sansa could support herself as a seamstress, which I don't consider a superficial thing. Similarly, the desire and ability to create elaborate embroidery is only superficial if you consider art and creativity as a whole to be superficial, instead of, say, one of the fundamental driving forces of human nature. I don't say that Sansa is on the verge of creating the Westerosi equivalent of the Bayeux Tapestry, but from her wolf embroidery it's clear that she's capable of that level of work, as a result of sheer dedication and hard work at her craft, and that is certainly not superficial either. 

I can't believe that even needs to be said.

This is a great response to that. Hell, it's the 21st century and I learned how to sew and make my own clothes. 

[Asma Ben Hamouda]

I liked this analysis of the scene between Sansa and Littlefinger

 

[Smoke317]

Sansa better get used to needlework because if she allows Littlefinger to convince or manipulate her into betraying Jon after the battle, she'll be getting some of Arya's "needle"work.  Ned told her in season 1 "not to stab her sister" but if she tries to hurt Jon, Arya will stick her. 

[Asma Ben Hamouda]

28 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Sansa better get used to needlework because if she allows Littlefinger to convince or manipulate her into betraying Jon after the battle, she'll be getting some of Arya's "needle"work.  Ned told her in season 1 "not to stab her sister" but if she tries to hurt Jon, Arya will stick her.

good point from a arya fanatic fan, you speak like Sansa is not a stark, who is the last person that sansa betrayed him?

Starks don't kill starks, starks don't betray starks

[throney]

23 minutes ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

good point from a arya fanatic fan, you speak like Sansa is not a stark, who is the last person that sansa betrayed him?

Starks don't kill starks, starks don't betray starks

Come on, dude. Don't feed the trolls, if you ignore them they go away.

[Winter Is Overdue]

20 hours ago, Les Météores D said:

It appears both Sophie Turner and D&D have confirmed she doesn't completely trust Jon when it comes to LF (whatever that means... and it can mean anything) and that she doesn't want to share the right information because it'll mainly benefit her. Anyway she's no match for LF on the long run yet, hopefully she'll wise up. I mean, come on, she fell right into the "half-brother" trap just like LF knew she would. And we know the Blackfish will be under siege, something he knows as well. 

When I heard that, I wondered if it meant that Sansa doesn't trust Jon to be able to handle whatever LF would likely pull if they accepted his help. Jon's a straight forward "what you see is what you get" sort of person, just like Ned, and look where refusing to play the game got Ned. Sansa's had that lesson rammed down her throat again and again. I think her lack of trust for Jon is that she doesn't think he's equipped to play LF's game. The price is too high, it would be an extremely embarrassing and painful discussion to explain it, so she lies. Even if she had told the truth, and explained that she doesn't feel LF can be trusted, Jon & Davos very well might have said, "Eh, no worries about that! We can handle that POS. Let's go add his army to ours!" and discounted anything she said. Seeing where LF's "help" got her in the first place (a sociopath for a husband), she not exactly motivated to accept any help from him. I can see why she'd prefer help from her uncle, even if it's more difficult to obtain.

[Les Météores D]

1 hour ago, Winter Is Overdue said:

When I heard that, I wondered if it meant that Sansa doesn't trust Jon to be able to handle whatever LF would likely pull if they accepted his help. Jon's a straight forward "what you see if what you get" sort of person, just like Ned, and look where refusing to play the game got Ned. Sansa's had that lesson rammed down her throat again and again. I think her lack of trust for Jon is that she doesn't think he's equipped to play LF's game. The price is too high, it would be an extremely embarrassing and painful discussion to explain it, so she lies. Even if she had told the truth, and explained that she doesn't feel LF can be trusted, Jon & Daavos very well might have said, "Eh, no worries about that! We can handle that POS. Let's go add his army to ours!" and discounted anything she said. Seeing where LF's "help" got her in the first place (a sociopath for a husband), she not exactly motivated to accept any help from him. I can see why she'd prefer help from her uncle, even if it's more difficult to obtain.

I agree, I think she wants LF as far away as possible from Jon for those exact reasons.

But unfortunately she hasn't thought the Blackfish situation through because the doesn't know about his military position. LF told the truth but surely knows what's going there, the Frey have Edmure and BK has taken Riverrun but can the Tullys come to back her up? Can they pass the Twins and MC?

And even if she distrusts Jon to protect herself I wouldn't mind, really (they've just met again after years apart after all) but letting LF's words get to her is a misstep imo.

[Les Météores D]

double post

[Xcorpyo001]

9 hours ago, Wilnova said:

Lets look at all the people Sansa has trusted so far:

Cersei, a woman who orders Sansa's pet wolf killed.

Joffrey, who takes sadistic pleasure in torturing Mycah

LF, who killed Joffrey and the previous hand of the king using underhanded means.

She trusted these very nice people despite knowing these things about them. She is then surprised that these very 'nice' people betrayed her trust, goes to the wall searching for her brother, finds him disillusioned and tired of everything, convinces him to fight for the North and then proceeds to distrust him. Because the very nice people she met before betrayed her. If anyone should have trust issues, it's Jon who was betrayed and murdered by a child he took under his wing.

Seriously, this trust thing has been debunked both on the show itself and in the behind the scenes stuff. I don't know why people keep peddling it as a reason. Sansa directly tells Brienne that she does trust Jon. That is why she is asking Brienne to leave her and go to Riverrun. Because she trusts Jon to keep her safe. Jon is Jon. He is not suddenly going to give an evil smirk and hand her over to the Boltons.

And lets look at the people she still does trust : She expects the Karstarks to be loyal despite Robb chopping off Karstark's head. She trust's LF information about the Blackfish and sends Brienne there.

Sansa lied to Jon for one reason. She wants power over the information regarding LF/Vale and LF himself. She does not want to share that with anyone. She does not want Jon and Davos to make decisions regarding them. She wants to do that. She is looking out for her own interests.  Not that of Jon or Rickon or the North or anyone else. She wants to project and show that she too has power and by holding onto valuable information about the Vale, she does. And THIS is understandable and normal for someone who went through what she did.

She is waiting for the right time to reveal this information and bring the Vale into the picture to help the North. The only question is to see if LF's jab about Jon being her half brother, really struck home. At the end of the battle of Winterfell, with LF/Vale troops and a possible Tully army, Sansa would have more power than Jon. If she/LF proclaims her as Queen in the North, we will find out which way the wind blows.

I find show Sansa to be so much more interesting than her book counterpart at this point. I am sure book Sansa will get here eventually. But that show Sansa is already plotting and undermining Jon behind his back to achieve her own goals is interesting to watch. Jon comes off as gormless and a poor, trusting sod to be honest. He's become boring and Sansa has become interesting.

This 100%. And every single mistake show Sansa does in those scenes is only in order to fix D&D’s mistakes, namely having both Sansa and Brienne in the North, compared to where they are in the book at this point in time.

Sansa should not have Brienne by her side, and she shouldn’t trust LF. Buuut she has to trust him 100% about the information about the BF and Riverrun, because Brienne needs to go back to her position in the books, after she was used as a plot device to split Arya and the Hound, kill Stannis, keep Davos from learning about Shireen’s fate until the end of the season, etc. So Brienne is back on track, but Sansa takes a hit because she not only trusts LF implicitly with this information, she is to dumb to understand that a Tully army can’t get to the north(they are in a fight on tow sides already, they have to go through the Twins, MC, snow, etc).

Sansa needs to start her little power games at this point in time. The book version has no problem with this, since she can play the Lords Declarant, LF, SR, Harry the Heir, the donkey girl, etc. Show Sansa on the other and has to play Jon for a fool. Both character take a hit because of this. Sansa is seen as a traitorous bitch, for falling for LF’s half brother comment, and Jon has to be a bumbling old fool that only wants to get warm, so he needs Sansa to hold his hand and guide him all the way to do his duty as a not-Stark.

Book Jon will try to raise the Stark banners by himself, while Sansa is preparing to play the the lords of the Vale into giving her their troops to fight the Boltons. In the books Jon will use Robb’s will that makes him a full Stark, and the next king in the North if Robb’s heir is dead. In the show, Jon will do it as Ned’s heir, not Robb. Also, last episode we had Sansa telling Jon that he is as much Ned’s son as she is. After a chat with LF, he is just a bastard, as much Ned’s trueborn son as Ramsay is Roose’s, and she’ll use her Stark name   to help him get support. She even gives him a small direwolf leather emblem to make him look more Starki-sh.  You know what will work better? A living breathing direwolf under his control, which seems to be missing in the show 99% of the time.

And the army of the Vale arriving to save the day. In the book we  have no problem with this, the Stark forces under Jon are marching south, while Sansa is bringing the Vale troops from the south, both independent of each other, and without knowledge of each other(well, talking about Jon and Sansa here, LF might have more information about this). But in the show Sansa knows about an entire army she can use, but the show can’t have her use it yet. Were would be the suspense in the last fight if Jon has an army four times stronger/better equipped form the start? It’s better for him to start as an underdog, make some mistakes along the way, and be saved by LF&co.

But in keeping this suspense, D&D have to make Sansa’s character take another hit, because she can’t kill LF and take the army in episode 5. It will ruin everything. The Vale has enough troops to take WF by themselves, so there shouldn’t be a reason for them to go around and beg the smaller houses for help. At least not for this fight. But, once she declines this help, her player status gets an automatic downgrade. One does not simply refuse a free army.

And the Sansa refuses the army because she doesn’t trust LF. Although she ends up trusting him anyway about the BF info. Her lying to Jon about the info and withholding information makes us believe she has ulterior motives. Using the troops later, after the houses loyal to the Boltons and Stark are almost depleted of troops is makes her an opportunistic bitch. The producers saying she doesn’t have clean motives later on also points to Sansa being a two-faced backstabber. The actress playing Sansa says she’s doing for personal reasons, and that she knows she can play LF later.

But the fact of the matter is that this entire character assassination is happening only because D&D need to keep the suspense up while entering the episode 9 battle. With the Vale troops in the mix, that would have been an easy win. I guess they could have had both Jon&Sansa tour around the North to rally allies, then she gets a message from LF in episode 8, she leaves to talk to him, and we see her at the end of the battle with the Vale troops. But I guess we need some Sansa doesn’t know how troops move in the field, and how battle works, her making silly decisions, lying to Jon, and some sibling rivalry. Because reasons.