Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[sj4iy]

6 minutes ago, WinterCloak said:

I think Sansa lied about where the news of the Blackfish came from because she knew the others would be mistrustful of the messenger. Perhaps she didn't want to waste time trying to convince everyone?

If it were just the source, it wouldn't be a big deal.  What is a big deal is the fact that she omits that Littlefinger has offered her an army...and army that they sorely need if they are going to defeat Ramsay Bolton.

[queenmarg]

10 hours ago, Pandean said:

I have a feeling she'll later take up the Vale forces, but on her own means. Since they're at Moat Cailin which is in the North anyway.

I don't personally think Bran would ever clan the North mainly because I think he's destined to be a tree (or well, you know).

 

ETA: I also wonder why she let LF walk away but I think it had less to do with her intentions and more to do with LF's plot armor. 

Yeah, I think others' plot armors have really damaged Sansa's growth. We are supposed to see her becoming a player, but her growth can't happen while other players like Ramsay and LF around her are shielded. I wish we could see Sansa at least question LF to show that she has more of a understanding of the game, like asking LF that if he pledges the forces of the Vale to commit to her (who's wanted to Joffrey's death), how would that play with Cersei and the crown? Just probe more into LF's bullshit...

I don't think Bran will reclaim the North either, but Sansa doesn't know that. All she knows is that Rickon is alive and in Winterfell and could possibly have information about Bran's whereabouts, making it two Stark boys with a better claim than her.

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, sj4iy said:

We, the audience, know that Jon is not like that.  But there's no reason that Sansa would know that.  They were never close growing up and they've been years apart.  And she's been let down, abused and used by those she trusted completely.  It's completely understandable why she is holding back on him at this point in time.

Now, it absolutely could come back to bite them later on...but right now, from her point of view, it's understandable.

Then, why is she asking Jon to fight for the North as Ned's son and warden of the North if she does not know Jon? Is she not using him then for her own gains while silently undermining him behind his back? There's no reason for Jon to trust Sansa as well. He was stabbed to death by his own brothers including his protege. The fact that he does trust her implicitly and that he has no personal ambitions should indicate to Sansa that he has the least guile. I mean we have her state on the show that Jon is Jon and that he will do her no harm. Which leads Brienne to question her about the lying. Which she does not answer.

Again, Sansa is not doing this because she does not trust Jon. She is doing this because information is power and she wants power. As Sophie Turner states Sansa wants power and she wants people to listen to her. The information about the Vale/LF is her trump card. I bet when the Northern alliance is in trouble, she will place that trump card on the table, bring the vale into the equation and send for them. Thus highlighting her importance to Jon and the others. If she divulges the info now, Jon and Co. would have the power of deciding what to do about LF/Vale, not her. She also understands that the Tully army will be loyal only to her and asks to send for them despite getting that info from LF. So she also trusts LF and his remark about Jon being her half brother has hit home. 

So, in a way it's good that Sansa is starting to play the game. She understands that knowledge is power and is waiting for the right time to unleash that power. The bad part is that she is playing against her own family. By keeping that info to herself she is undermining Jon. Not LF. That is why she is the least Stark like of all the Starks. Ned, Jon, Robb, Bran and Arya would not do that.

But that does connect show Sansa to book Sansa. Book Sansa is not shy about throwing others under the bus to advance her own future. She is going along with LF's Harry the Heir plot , despite knowing that would put SR in danger.

All in all, I think this is an exciting new direction for Sansa.

[sj4iy]

8 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

Then, why is she asking Jon to fight for the North as Ned's son and warden of the North if she does not know Jon is not like that? Is she not using him then for her own gains while silently undermining him? There's no reason for Jon to trust Sansa as well. He was stabbed to death by his own brothers including his protege. The fact that he seems to and that he has no personal ambitions should indicate to Sansa that he has the least guile.

Again, Sansa is not doing this because she does not trust Jon. She is doing this because information is power and she wants power. As Sophie Turner states Sansa wants power and she wants people to listen to her. The information about the Vale/LF is her trump card. I bet when the Northern alliance is in trouble, she will place that trump card on the table, bring the vale into the equation and send for them. Thus highlighting her importance to Jon and the others. If she divulges the info now, Jon and Co. would have the power of deciding what to do about LF/Vale, not her. She also understands that the Tully army will be loyal only to her and asks to send for them despite getting that info from LF. So she also trusts LF in a way. 

So, in a way it's good that Sansa is starting to play the game. She understands that knowledge is power and is waiting for the right time to unleash that power. The bad part is that she is playing against her own family. By keeping that info to herself she is undermining Jon. Not LF. That is why she is the least Stark like of all the Starks. Ned, Robb, Bran and Arya would not do that.

But that does connect show Sansa to book Sansa. Book Sansa is not shy about throwing others under the bus to advance her own future. She is going along with LF's Harry the Heir plot , despite knowing that would put SR in danger.

All in all, I think this is an exciting new direction for Sansa.

I pretty much said all of this in my above statements.

I'm not debating whether or not she's finding ways to take power- she clearly is.  I'm stating that it's understandable if you look at it from her perspective.  It's not just "oh, I'm taking power because I've always wanted to be queen!"  It's "I'm taking power so that no one can ever harm me again."  And from Jon's perspective, it's "I"m taking power because it's what is necessary to fight the White Walkers and save my family."  Right now, both need each other to achieve those goals.

Of course, we don't know the ramifications of keeping back this pertinent information.  And I do believe she should have been honest with him about Littlefinger.  But I understand why she wasn't, is what I'm saying.

[Wilnova]

9 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

I pretty much said all of this in my above statements.

I'm not debating whether or not she's finding ways to take power- she clearly is.  I'm stating that it's understandable if you look at it from her perspective.  It's not just "oh, I'm taking power because I've always wanted to be queen!"  It's "I'm taking power so that no one can ever harm me again."  And from Jon's perspective, it's "I"m taking power because it's what is necessary to fight the White Walkers and save my family."  Right now, both need each other to achieve those goals.

Of course, we don't know the ramifications of keeping back this pertinent information.  And I do believe she should have been honest with him about Littlefinger. 

True. What I am disagreeing with is the statement, that Sansa lied because she does not trust Jon. She clearly understands that Jon is Jon and means her no harm. I am saying that Sansa lied because she wants power and she understands that knowledge is power. She is more or less becoming like Varys and LF, the people who hold back information and use it at the right time to gain power.

What I think is problematic is that she is doing this to the good guys. Jon is not holding back information to gain power. He has everything laid out on the table. Sansa on the other hand is undermining the good guys behind their back because she, personally, wants power. SHE wants people to listen to HER. SHE wants to forge HER  own path. Jon is doing it for the greater good. Sansa is doing it for her own good.

I think this gels with her book character arc and I believe we will see more of this in TWoW.

[sj4iy]

39 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

True. What I am disagreeing with is the statement, that Sansa lied because she does not trust Jon. She clearly understands that Jon is Jon and means her no harm. I am saying that Sansa lied because she wants power and she understands that knowledge is power. She is more or less becoming like Varys and LF, the people who hold back information and use it at the right time to gain power.

What I think is problematic is that she is doing this to the good guys. Jon is not holding back information to gain power. He has everything laid out on the table. Sansa on the other hand is undermining the good guys behind their back because she, personally, wants power. SHE wants people to listen to HER. SHE wants to forge HER  own path. Jon is doing it for the greater good. Sansa is doing it for her own good.

I think this gels with her book character arc and I believe we will see more of this in TWoW.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then.  Because in my mind, Sansa is unable to trust anyone completely, even Jon, because of the abuse and betrayal she has suffered.  I don't think she's doing it out of a malicious intent to gain power.  The point of 'playing the game' is to gain power...but people have different motivations for what they will use that power for.  In Jon's case, it's so he can fight the White Walkers.  In Varys' case, it's because he dislikes the current ruling class in Westeros.  In Cersei's case, it's because she wants to protect her children.  And in Sansa's case, it's because she wants to protect herself.  It's selfish, but it's understandable after what she's been through.  Only time will tell how her current 'moves' will affect the game down the line.

[WinterCloak]

Slightly off topic but does anyone have a really good picture of the embroidery on Sansa's dress? It looks like a wolf and a branch/trees but I dunno. The wolf is easy to see, Jia trying to figure out what symbolism it's invoking.

[Aint Nuthin But A HoundDog]

On May 23, 2016 at 10:37 PM, kg1982 said:

Sansa lies to Jon because she knows that Littlefinger is up to no good, but is afraid that Jon will only focus on the number of troops rather than on the cost associated with those troops. 

That's a good possibility. Out of every scene in that episode, the question of why did Sansa lie to Jon is the one I keep turning over in my head. It eats at me because it caught me by surprise. Regardless, it didn't appear to be a planned lie; she seemed to be covering her ass. 

(Edited after I read through some more posts: I don't believe Sansa's lie was motivated by a power play. The only power she seems interested in is getting Winterfell back and kicking Ramsay and LF to the curb.)

As for Sansa comparing Jon to Ramsay, I did not take it as a slight. Rather, it seemed to me that she was defending Jon to Davos. And the cloak present was sweet. She does love Jon, bastard brother or no. But I've no doubt LF will continue to try to work his way between them and cause a rift. 

Did I mention how much I hate LF? Even more than I hate Ramsay. Ugh. 

[Boudica]

This has suddenly become a very interesting situation, I almost just want to sit back and see how it develops without any speculation. 

It is good that Sansa is now starting to play the game. But it is rather silly of her to try and play the game by using Jon. Lying to Jon was pointed out by Brienne, so I guess it will come into play at some stage. Right now Sansa isn't actually as clever as she thinks she is, listening to her thoughts and reasoning within that war counsel shows that there is still more that she could learn. 

But I find the overall situation quite interesting, you can make the best of plans at times but there is always still some measure of unpredictability for any future event. Once again we see that the players such as Littlefinger and now perhaps Sansa as well, does not really understand or have the knowledge about the bigger picture. 

The first event that no one is predicting is that Bran is on his way, it seems like Bran will already reach the Wall in the next episode, so it is only a matter of time before he will get involved in the situation within the North. And with Bran coming South the White Walkers and their army could be hot on his heels. 

Another situation which Littlefinger does not seem to take into consideration is Dany. I could see the Starks winning Winterfell back again. But it also seems very likely that Dany will arrive early in the next season. So that would be just after the Starks have retaken Winterfell. Littlefinger will likely not have a lot of support in Dany's court with Tyrion and Varys by her side. So whatever Littlefinger's bigger goals is, it will be blocked off by Dany. 

I have always thought that there might be a rivalry between Sansa and Jon, but not between themselves directly. I thought it would be more of a case of Northern support, where some houses would rather support Jon and other houses would rather support Sansa. But I guess we will not be going into this direction. 

I think it is more than likely that the arrival of Bran will throw a clog into the mix. It is quite interesting how strongly Jon is being associated with Ned this season. He is now clearly stepping into Ned's shoes. But I think the reason for this is to create an extra bond with Jon's, Stark connection. He will feel closer to Ned and more like a Stark than ever before. It creates a false Stark recognition within Jon.  Until Bran arrives, Jon would feel more like a Stark than ever before, and then Bran will tell him that isn't a Stark and that he isn't Ned's son. After becoming more of a Stark than ever before this will be a crushing reality for Jon.  

If Littlefinger is hanging around when this situation is revealed, then I am fearful that he would want to use Jon for his own bigger  ambitious, especially if Dany is on her way. 

 

[Mladen]

8 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Sansa has always been the Stark least loyal to her family.  Why are we surprised that she'd lie to Jon for her own selfish gains. 

First, what are those gains? Are people here actually claiming that she wants that army for herself and that she is pushing for the position of Queen in the North?

8 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

She did the same thing with both Arya (Joffrey and wolves) and Ned (telling Cersei Ned was gonna sneak his kids back to Winterfell).  

Well, given that we are on TV subforum, this never happened.

8 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

The pack comes before the individual.  And to her Jon is family. Her first instinct is to name him her brother.  Not half brother.  Not bastard.  Sansa is becoming a selfish manipulator like her mentor and father figure LF and that won't play too well with the rest of the Stark Wolfpack. Sansa's only redemption will be that she's playing the game and manipulating LF for the benefit of her entire family, not just herself or she'll finally see the folly in her ways and sacrifice herself to save her family. 

I don't understand. She can't be a manipulative and true wolf? Sansa expressed her utmost loyalty to Jon even in this episode. She made him clothes that looked like Ned's. She obviously wants people to be reminded of Ned when they see Jon. She rejects Brienne's protests and she says she is not alone and that she is with Jon. She clearly differentiates him from everyone else. It is truly impossible to argue that no Stark would ever be able to play games because that would make him unStark. Simply, the pack is stronger by the abilities of its individuals. Sansa, as someone who survived by lying and coyly cajoling people to do what she wants (Ramsay, Joffrey) can be extremely beneficial in the future negotiations. She is also the one giving Jon's campaign legitimacy it needs. That was the whole point of Ramsay comparison. She is the one that makes Jon a Stark, at least in the eyes of the Northerners. 

[Ingelheim]

9 hours ago, WinterCloak said:

Slightly off topic but does anyone have a really good picture of the embroidery on Sansa's dress? It looks like a wolf and a branch/trees but I dunno. The wolf is easy to see, Jia trying to figure out what symbolism it's invoking.

Mmmm I'd suggest Tumblr. Sansa is all over it right now, and people around there are not shy about Jon x Sansa shipping, so there are like 48292 different pictures of that scene alone.

The interesting thing about the dress are the blue roses. I'm not sure if they are blue roses, but it looks like they are, so, it's pretty big foreshadowing.

[Mladen]

7 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

The interesting thing about the dress are the blue roses. I'm not sure if they are blue roses, but it looks like they are, so, it's pretty big foreshadowing.

There is something blue... I think it might be blue roses

8 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Mmmm I'd suggest Tumblr. Sansa is all over it right now, and people around there are not shy about Jon x Sansa shipping, so there are like 48292 different pictures of that scene alone.

Ah, Tumblr... The sacred land where Theon and Robb are enjoying their love affair away from the rest of the world.

[Nic.]

When watching the scene my first thought was that Sanda was ashamed of her association with LF and wanted nothing to do with him. Hence why she mentions the Tullys and not the Vale. I don't really like her character but the bastard mention was clearly meant to give reason as to why Jon could rally the houses. I'm not even sure how anyone can come away with the idea that it was anything different.  She even mentions lending her name to help Jon raise his army.  Having said that LF clearly is still manipulating her when she immediately has Brienne go get help from the Tullys who should be in no position to raise an army.   And there is definitely a level of distrust at a subconscious level seeing her reaction to Brienne calling her out on her lie.  However saying she is maliciously looking to grab all the power to herself is looking way too deeply into things. Even the actress own comment mentions power In regards to LF and nothing else.

[Les Météores D]

I think the episode had a nice theme concerning the Stark kids.

-Arya's not ready to be a FM and she never will

-Bran's not ready to control his greenseer skill but he will (I guess?)

-Sansa I don't know yet. Either not ready to play the game at LF's level (clearly) or not ready to fully trust Jon

 

[Pandean]

She also could have lied because she knew if she mentioned LF most people wouldn't trust her information and she simply is too angry with him to even contemplate the idea of working with him/etc.

 

Honestly; I find it interesting that one of the most controversial characters in this series is a (in show land) 13-18 year old girl. Like...really? There's so much chatter about Sansa being selfish and weak and wimpy but then when she does something like take charge of a situation, she's bitchy and manipulative and selfish again. It's like she can't win. And the fact that people hold the direwolf thing over her head still is so weird to me. 

 

It bugs me when people insist Sansa is not a true Stark because she betrayed her "Pack" because she really didn't. Actually, the whole Stark-Pack analogy bugs me. They're people, not wolves, even if they're symbol is one.

 

I think that whatever she does, people are going to criticize her for it. It's just the nature of her character unfortunately.

 

But as I said before; I don't think she lied because of nefarious means. And I don't think she mentioned Jon was like Ramsay in a "You're also a raping murdering psychopath". Just that, well, Ramsay is now Warden of the North and to most people he's still a bastard (though they would never say so to his face) but people still listen to him because he is of Bolton blood. Jon may be a bastard but he is Ned's blood (in one way or another). Same difference.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

32 minutes ago, Risto said:

Ah, Tumblr... The sacred land where Theon and Robb are enjoying their love affair away from the rest of the world

 

42 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Sansa is all over it right now, and people around there are not shy about Jon x Sansa shipping

I swear that from my second hand knowledge of Tumblr, shipping is the only thing I hear its denizens doing. It would be a bit interesting to know whether the ship hit a rock after Sansa lied to Jon.

An interesting thing to note that after sending Brienne away, Jon would be the only one that Sansa could trust unconditionally. And Petyr tried to sour that relationship unknowingly, seeing he had no way of knowing Brienne would be going to Riverrun.

[Ingelheim]

2 minutes ago, Ser Muradin the Small said:

 

I swear that from my second hand knowledge of Tumblr, shipping is the only thing I hear its denizens doing. It would be a bit interesting to know whether the ship hit a rock after Sansa lied to Jon.

An interesting thing to note that after sending Brienne away, Jon would be the only one that Sansa could trust unconditionally. And Petyr tried to sour that relationship unknowingly, seeing he had no way of knowing Brienne would be going to Riverrun.

Naaaah it didn't. I can assure you that. On the contrary, the scene in which Sansa gives the new cloak to Jon is all over it. Literally. That's why I suggested her going to Tumblr. She's not going to have any problems finding pictures of Sansa's dress 

42 minutes ago, Risto said:

There is something blue... I think it might be blue roses

Ah, Tumblr... The sacred land where Theon and Robb are enjoying their love affair away from the rest of the world.

Yeah, I've checked it out and I'm right, there are blue roses around the wolf bit. Interesting.

I ran away scared of Tumblr the moment I found out Ramsay x Theon shipping. Creeeeeeeeeeeeep.

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Naaaah it didn't. I can assure you that. On the contrary, the scene in which Sansa gives the new cloak to Jon is all over it. Literally. That's why I suggested her going to Tumblr. She's not going to have any problems finding pictures of Sansa's dress 

Yeah, I've checked it out and I'm right, there are blue roses around the wolf bit. Interesting.

I ran away scared of Tumblr the moment I found out Ramsay x Theon shipping. Creeeeeeeeeeeeep.

My SansaxJon ship is STRONG man. She made them matching clothes. (On a sidenote I love how Sansa still sews and makes her own dresses) And let's not forget about the fact that the two of them together could remind others of Ned and Catelyn. Which would be interesting. 

I mean, they're also the only JonxAStark ship I could get behind mainly because Sansa never really had a brother-sister relationship with him like Arya did. So it would be more plausible when learning he's her cousin that they'd get together.

Though IDK how they'd pull that off in the show...like, if they would show their attraction to one another but there's angst because incest is bad and then there's no angst because haha we're not related! Closely, at least.

Ramsay X Theon shipping is scary. So is Petyr x Sansa shipping IMO.

[mattnj81]

I don't get the Jon & Sansa thing. They grew up together as brother and sister, finding out that there is a miniscule amount of space in your relation (cousins is still pretty damn close) isn't going to change how they see each other. Why would anyone want (that's what ship means, right?) them to get together? Besides just being gross, the Targs bred brother and sister and it led to madness.

[Ingelheim]

48 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

I don't get the Jon & Sansa thing. They grew up together as brother and sister, finding out that there is a miniscule amount of space in your relation (cousins is still pretty damn close) isn't going to change how they see each other. Why would anyone want (that's what ship means, right?) them to get together? Besides just being gross, the Targs bred brother and sister and it led to madness.

Welcome to the Internet. 

The thing is more complicated, anyways. The only true possibilities for Jon, right now, are members of his family. Either any of his sisters (cousins, but whatever) or his aunt, Dany. So, any possible future relationship for Jon is going to be an incestous one. With Dany you still have the fact that they haven't grown together, and that Targaryens marry each other all the time. Still...not my cup of tea. I've never liked Dany, and I think Jon and her will be enemies for a time.

So, it's kind of normal people have gone crazy for Sansa/Jon right now. It doesn't help that Sophie and Kit share such a great chemistry on screen, and that they are two young and attractive actors.

But, as I said before, looking outside Jon's family for any future love interest for him is pointless, IMO, both in the books and the Show. 

Anyways, let's stay on topic.