Discussing Sansa XXIV: Forgetful North

[tmug]

2 minutes ago, Myself656 said:

Yeah, I'm really not seeing how the claims that Sansa is somehow power hungry or trying to betray Jon are coming from. The only rationale for the thinking I can think of is that Sansa not being a power hungry traitor hurts the odds of Jon/Arya working out (sidebar: multiple stab wounds to the lower abdomen cannot be good for a girl's reproductive health... she could end up as infertile as Dany is).

This episode completely clarified that Sansa's lie was about not wanting to have to rely on Littlefinger's aid to save them and that her motivation for relenting and contacting him is not her seeking power, but because their forces will be literally outnumbered 2-to-1 and facing certain death without the Vale Forces to back them up.

Given that her motives for contacting Littlefinger aren't based on being power hungry or betraying Jon, I'd have to conclude that her motives for not telling Jon will similarly not being about hunger for power or an intent to betray. ex. she thinks he'd turn down the help because of what she's probably told him about Littlefinger.

Heck, for all we know she's just waiting for a reply from Littlefinger before she tells Jon about it next episode (and they then have a talk about trust and the costs of an alliance with Littlefinger) and all the notions that this will somehow be a huge betrayal that destroys Sansa (or even that Jon will kill her for it) will rightfully turn to ashes.

Yes I think this episode confirmed Sansa's loyalty and clarifies her previous lies at the counsel at Castle Black. She was reluctant because she would despise herself for having to rely on LF for help. UNLESS, she is writing to Robin himself or perhaps the Blackfish it seems LF will be saving the day.

I always assumed that Jon would be the one reluctant to fight with less numbers rather than Sansa. Jon and Davos should have learned how Stannis got worked at the Battle of Winterfell.   

[yakisikli123]

For the time being Sansa only wants her home back, but later

And are there no other wildlings (more Giants....)

At first Jon should be King of the wildlings (Maybe they change their opinion, when they see heroic action of him)

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

54 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Based Lyanna Mormont and based Robett Glover calling out Stark's infinite retardation.  At least the show doesn't sweep Robb's mistakes under the rug

Aaannnd? What else you got you keep repeating this same thing.

 

What you’re saying but more whinny 

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Aenys Frey’s mouth quivered with outrage. “Stark dishonored us. That is what you northmen had best remember.”

Why what you say is pretty much garbage 

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 “Night work is not knight’s work,” Lady Dustin said. “And Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers.  Flints, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Slates … they all had men with the Young Wolf.” “House Ryswell too,” said Roger Ryswell. “Even Dustins out of Barrowton.” Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. “The north remembers, Frey.”

Why the north also hates Ramsay though I do think the show did cut this bit out...

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If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers.

Also there's this thing called liege lord. If your liege makes mistakes you to have to follow him that's the point to that flawed system.  

Oh by the way

Spoiler

It's Valyrian scale armour which is pretty much out of date since chain mail it's also pretty fucking cool.

You know that scene in AGOT(book) where Renly laughs his ass at LION'S TOOTH  (or whatever) and has to be removed from the hall that is how I feel every time I see you point out... your point. "HAHA biased talk hahaha"

 

[Mladen]

33 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

The North remembers the bad stuff too.

Do they? I mean, the logic of their refusal is tragically wrong. If they all sent men to fight with Robb, then most of those men were slaughtered during RW. If those men were slaughtered during RW, it was done by Boltons too, so suddenly no one wants to avenge their family members. Really?

 

[yakisikli123]

10 minutes ago, Taylor Swift said:

After Ramsay dies, every single northern house will bend to the winners.

The winners & the only army left will be the Vale army.

Sansa will support Jon, so the entire Vale+North shall also fall in line.

Yes, Jon will be a king without an army loyal to him.

You only wrote the plan of Vale army nothing else.

Why should Sansa support Jon, if she sees there is only Vale and North

Jon without an army doesnt make sense (You immediately can say he also will die)

[Cragen]

North story line becoming worst then Dorn one. They butcher every northern value. How the fuck nobody blame Red Wedding on Boltons?

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

Do they? I mean, the logic of their refusal is tragically wrong. If they all sent men to fight with Robb, then most of those men were slaughtered during RW. If those men were slaughtered during RW, it was done by Boltons too, so suddenly no one wants to avenge their family members. Really?

 

Same logic as to get revenge on a dead family member you better kill the rest of your family... 

Or are we to believe the same bs spin work here "That's not what they did they were gaining power" or some crap like that. That was soo long ago I already forgot about arbitrary spin rational.

Much like I'll forget about this Rob, Stark, mumbo Jumbo spin job and remember exactly your point. 

I also find it funny how in one of the inside the episode this season DB was like "You know the North is a more honorable Place it means much more to them...blah blah blah"

[yakisikli123]

And Jon will wait for Daenerys to save him or what, this is ridiculous

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Same logic as to get revenge on a dead family member you better kill the rest of your family... 

Or are we to believe the same bs spin work here "That's not what they did they were gaining power" or some crap like that. That was soo long ago I already forgot about arbitrary spin rational.

Much like I'll forget about this Rob, Stark, mumbo Jumbo spin job and remember exactly your point. 

I also find it funny how in one of the inside the episode this season DB was like "You know the North is a more honorable Place it means much more to them...blah blah blah"

When was anyone that pragmatic in Westeros? Plus, it is not like they are not endangered by Ramsay's behavior or that Starks are coming alone - they do have 2000 people. The response is illogical. The danger Ramsay poses, plus the history should be enough. Why it isn't, Gods only know.

5 minutes ago, Cragen said:

North story line becoming worst then Dorn one. They butcher every northern value. How the fuck nobody blame Red Wedding on Boltons?

Nothing is worse than Dorne... The Vampire Diaries and CW DC TV-erse is still better than Dorne.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

When was anyone that pragmatic in Westeros? Plus, it is not like they are not endangered by Ramsay's behavior or that Starks are coming alone - they do have 2000 people. The response is illogical. The danger Ramsay poses, plus the history should be enough. Why it isn't, Gods only know.

Nothing is worse than Dorne... The Vampire Diaries and CW DC TV-erse is still better than Dorne.

I can't tell if you saw I was agreeing with you or not? Also ironically the Vampire Diaries spinoff, The Originals is really good. I haven't seen this latest season though. 

[Cragen]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

Nothing is worse than Dorne... The Vampire Diaries and CW DC TV-erse is still better than Dorne.

Nothing is nothing is not better or worse then anything. It`s at least more disappointing then Dorn maybe because I`m more invested in North story line.

[yakisikli123]

The north is just loyal to the powerful ones (Boltons), if they see the defeat of them, then they change their minds maybe.

[blckp]

16 hours ago, yakisikli123 said:

And Jon will wait for Daenerys to save him or what, this is ridiculous

if Daenerys helps him then he can even be king of the world , Daenerys help >>>>>everyother help if she knows jon is her nephew then at worst she can make him warden of the north

[Wilnova]

42 minutes ago, Myself656 said:

This episode completely clarified that Sansa's lie was about not wanting to have to rely on Littlefinger's aid to save them and that her motivation for relenting and contacting him is not her seeking power, but because their forces will be literally outnumbered 2-to-1 and facing certain death without the Vale Forces to back them up.

Given that her motives for contacting Littlefinger aren't based on being power hungry or betraying Jon, I'd have to conclude that her motives for not telling Jon will similarly not being about hunger for power or an intent to betray. ex. she thinks he'd turn down the help because of what she's probably told him about Littlefinger.

So she's lying to Jon because she thinks the guy who has made crows and wildlings work together will turn down help from LF? Why would she think this? It's incredibly selfish of her to not tell Jon about the Vale army and then chide him for attacking Winterfell with less men. If she can put asides her differences and trust LF, why can't Jon do the same? Especially as Jon is someone who has even asked help from the Boltons for the greater good. At this point Jon has been more pragmatic than Sansa who does not want to share important info with her brother for some unknown reason.

I doubt the North is in the next episode. Episode 9 is the big battle. I am guessing she finally tells Jon about LF and the Vale right before the battle. She has unnecessarily lied to her brother. She was unable to convince the North to fight for her. She distrusts Davos, the man responsible for Jon being alive and then writes a letter to LF asking for help. I am not seeing how any of this showcases her as a player. I guess we will see what happens after LF and the Vale get there in episode 10. I still think Sansa wants the upper hand and control over LF/Vale so that Jon and Co. listen to her and accord her importance.

Also Sophie's interview is pretty hilarious:

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/sophie-turners-sansa-is-more-powerful-than-ever

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There's always been tension between Jon and Sansa, since they were young. They were never particularly close, and I don't think those sibling frustrations and quarrels will ever go away. Also, in Jon's eyes, Sansa is still the 13-year-old naive girl whose greatest passions were very much the material, seemingly unimportant things in life. It's going to be a big adjustment for him to listen to her and view her as an equal, especially when it comes to war tactics, simply because she's a woman. 

Sansa is now well versed in war tactics?! LOL! I wonder if we will see her charging into battle on a war horse!

And considering that Jon is someone who listens to and respects women like Ygritte and Arya, the idea that he would not view her as an equal on war tactics because she is a woman sounds a totally different Jon. Maybe on the show, Jon views women who fight as being less equal and is into girls like Sansa now that the show has replaced a lot of the Arya stuff with Sansa. 

[ricardoromell]

I some how feel sansa wrote the letter directly to sweet Robin.  She looked at lady Mormont and their maester with the raven, I got an instinctive feeling that she thought of Robin to send a raven to rather than little finger. Something about seeing one seemingly capable child in power and the other an incapable one for the time being.  My hypothesis is that she may even offer her hand in  marriage to her cousin Robin and  he will have claim to the north possibly. This way she manipulates  Robin on her own and overtime may be even against little finger 

[yakisikli123]

7 minutes ago, blckp said:

if Daenerys helps him then he can even be king of the world , Daenerys help >>>>>everyother help if she knows jon is her nephew then at worst she can make him warden of the north

 

Maybe she falls by flying with her dragon  to the ground and dies

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, ricardoromell said:

I some how feel sansa wrote the letter directly to sweet Robin.  She looked at lady Mormont and their maester with the raven, I got an instinctive feeling that she thought of Robin to send a raven to rather than little finger. Something about seeing one seemingly capable child in power and the other an incapable one for the time being.  My hypothesis is that she may even offer her hand in  marriage to her cousin Robin and  he will have claim to the north possibly. This way she manipulates  Robin on her own and overtime may be even against little finger 

Perhaps. Although Lord Royce would be a viable option too. The fact they have left ambiguous whom she is sending a letter to can be of importance. 

[Drz]

we're really seeing the warmongering Dark Sansa coming through. Let's recap: she dismissed The Vale Knights, she continously doubts and mocks Jon Snow and now is seeking Baelish' help once more and the most important thing that noone has said outloud except the fans: Why are they planning an open siege battle againts Ramsay Bolton?

[draft0]

28 minutes ago, Cragen said:

North story line becoming worst then Dorn one. They butcher every northern value. How the fuck nobody blame Red Wedding on Boltons?

Now, let's not go that far. 

The whole idea of this Northern campaign leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Stannis spent an entire season marching against the Boltons and lost, why the hell are we doing it again? Just seems like a retread.

Could have easily had Sansa and the Vale involved last season.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

7 minutes ago, Drz said:

we're really seeing the warmongering Dark Sansa coming through. Let's recap: she dismissed The Vale Knights, she continously doubts and mocks Jon Snow and now is seeking Baelish' help once more and the most important thing that noone has said outloud except the fans: Why are they planning an open siege battle againts Ramsay Bolton?

Well because they don't want to get caught in the snow.... hahaha 

 

But yeah a Robert De Bruce playbook would be greatly appreciated. Or my Absolute favorite a Wellesley playbook. Considered one of the greatest defensive Generals of all time but he was usually on the offensive.