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R+L=J v.161

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On 7/16/2016 at 8:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

Lets just say I see the fact that Ned and Lyanna have have agreed on Robert being a potential threat to Jon's life as a sign that he was Rhaegar's 'legitimate son' (in the sense that Lyanna and Rhaegar could be considered legally married)

 

Unless Aegon was the heir before him, Jon could not have been. And the world book seems to suggest otherwise.

And when was the wedding?

Geeze I've missed a lot!

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@SFDanny

Also, one thing I forgot to mention last night: the whole passage is rather tricky and it is not entirely clear what is prompted by what, hence multiple reading is possible:

“I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

The first part, with the promise to take care of the child's wellbeing and the responding smile mirrors Ned's promise to Lyanna and her smile. IMHO, it is this similarity that prompts the thought about Jon. But then Ned goes back to the issue at hand and asks about Robert's bastards. So, is Jon "in line" of the train of thoughts about bastards, or is he a "detour" prompted by the similarity of the scene and the memory of him has nothing to do with his supposed bastardy? 

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I originally had this idea that Jon would stop grappling with his identity at the end of the series. That he would no longer wonder who he was, and be content with being "a man of the nights watch."

Recent events have changed my expectation someone...

I hope he is not Rhaegar and Lyanna's. It seems likely, but I would really like to be surprised...

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon theory is nice, and it seems pretty obvious, but that is lovely weather for a twist...

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On 17/07/2016 at 1:25 PM, Black Crow said:

To quote Dan Wood: "It aint over until the fat lady sings"

She has sung, left the building, attended the after-show party, and is tucked up in bed sleeping.

Screaming into the wind is pointless at this stage.

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5 minutes ago, AdesteFideles said:

She has sung, left the building, attended the after-show party, and is tucked up in bed sleeping.

Screaming into the wind is pointless at this stage.

Apart from the fade from the baby's eyes to Jon Snow's, identifying his mother as Lyanna Stark, which we knew already, there was nothing in the mummers' version which isn't already in the books or spoken of in SSM.

The fact the mummers have a graphic on their website illustrating the most popular theory about Jon's father is as nothing to GRRM's silence.

Are you seriously suggesting that after more than 20 years of teasing us and stonewalling us over the "central mystery" GRRM is going to say nothing?

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Answer in spoiler tags below. If you don't watch the show don't read.

Spoiler

The show has, to some extent, avoided R+L=J up until this season. I have no doubt the reason they doubled-down on it this year was because they believed tWOW would be out already and the "secret" would be known.

Martin has made a cross for his own back. Once the show runners were convinced he would have divulged this info first, it was a run-away train that couldn't be stopped.

Hell, the show even put out that awful info-graphic just in case viewers missed it.

R+L=J, and if it was to have ANY meaning at all they could not leave it any longer. If they had, it would have been one giant deus-ex machina that no one would have swallowed.

Quote

Are you seriously suggesting that after more than 20 years of teasing us and stonewalling us over the "central mystery" GRRM is going to say nothing?

That cut's both ways. GRRM hasn't been shy in the past to point out differences between the books and the show, but on this issue above all others? *Tumbleweeds*

In short: R+L=J was revealed on the show because they assumed we would already know.

I'm hitting submit now, I hope I've done the spoiler tags properly...

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Are you seriously suggesting that after more than 20 years of teasing us and stonewalling us over the "central mystery" GRRM is going to say nothing?

Seriously suggesting that Rhaegar is not his father seem far more ridiculous. Like by an order of magnitude. But anyway what is Martin going to say? He could lie, but that would be out of character and kinda petty. He could confirm, which gains him nothing and likely exposes the twist to people who don't watch the show. (via SSM, a billion articles with headlines like "Martin at last confirms identity of Jon Snow's parents," etc.) Or he says nothing. He already knew most of the fans of the books and the show had heard the theory and embraced it by this point. I don't get why you find his silence on the subject to be so odd. 

Did he comment on the other major reveals that happened in the show? (I won't mention them, but the two where the producers said they came straight from Martin.) I think I read that for one of them he told people that it would play out differently in the books, to the same ultimate fate for that character. But if the R+L=J plot is going to play out the same in the books, I think his best move is to just keep his mouth shut about it and accept that a lot of his readers are not going to be surprised, something he should have come to terms with years ago. 

I think if anything his silence suggests that the show got it right, or he'd have said something like "well, keep reading. The show is not the books." 

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Jon's not a bastard . Like I said before Jon still being a bastard wouldn't change much but him being a legitimate prince would . Still being a bastard wouldn't make sense since a dragon is not a bastard and a bastard is not a prince .

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So I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but in The Hedge Knight

 

Spoiler

"They have small choice in the matter," said Daeron. "They are sworn to protect the lives of the king and royal family, and my brothers and I are blood of the dragon, gods help us."

*Referencing the King's Guard 

 

Would the Kings Guard stay to protect a bastard? Or could this line add to speculation that Jon is true born of R+L?

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1 minute ago, HowlandReed'sWorth said:

So I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but in The Hedge Knight

 

  Hide contents

"They have small choice in the matter," said Daeron. "They are sworn to protect the lives of the king and royal family, and my brothers and I are blood of the dragon, gods help us."

*Referencing the King's Guard 

 

Would the Kings Guard stay to protect a bastard? Or could this line add to speculation that Jon is true born of R+L?

They would, if they were commanded to do so. Barristan Selmy confirms this for us in ADwD where he explains to the reader that it is entirely up to the king to decide who the Kingsguard is going to protect. Some kings restricted KG protection only to their own royal person (Aegon II seems to have done so after his coronation if only for a lack of KGs), others extended it to their (sister-)wives and children and extended family. Others even used Kingsguard to protect their cousins, mistresses, and bastards (the latter seems to be a given for Aegon the Unworthy who might have granted all his mistresses a Kingsguard during his reign and who easily enough could also have assigned a Kingsguard to Daemon Blackfyre).

Vice versa, we also see royal princes who aren't protected by Kingsguard. Rhaenyra's sworn shield is Harwin Strong for a couple of years who was no Kingsguard, Joffrey the Crown Prince is protected by Sandor Clegane, no Kingsguard, and so forth.

Thus the three Kingsguard at the tower could easily have seen it part of their duty to fulfill their Kingsguard vow to protect Lyanna Stark, Prince Rhaegar's mistress, and her young son by him if either Rhaegar or Aerys had commanded them to do such a thing.

There is only a problem with that if you insert the meaning you want to into the dream conversation and presuppose things you don't have knowledge of (like that the Kingsguard would have been honor-bound to go to Viserys III on Dragonstone who was now king, or at least send one of their own there so that Viserys had a Kingsguard, too).

But you can also assume that people who had already decided to obey Rhaegar (or Aerys) to stay at that tower and protect a pregnant Lyanna while their prince and king died far away would also stick to that duty/task after these people were dead. They would have been with Lyanna because they thought this task was important, and that wouldn't have changed just because Rhaegar and Aerys died.

Not to mention that they might have intended to eventually go to Dragonstone with the young child and his mother or at least go to a place from which they could contact the Queen Dowager and King Viserys III on Dragonstone.

I do not happen to believe that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's bastard. But he could very well be. The presence of Kingsguard doesn't prove anything.

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2 hours ago, AdesteFideles said:

Or wife.

Sure, that is also a possibility. But not the only possibility. We can reasonably assume that historical Kingsguard also took their mission to protect mistresses and bastards very seriously.

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41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, that is also a possibility. But not the only possibility. We can reasonably assume that historical Kingsguard also took their mission to protect mistresses and bastards very seriously.

Agreed, but it was a possibility you omitted.

:)

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11 minutes ago, AdesteFideles said:

Agreed, but it was a possibility you omitted.

:)

Well, I was answering a specific question, was I not?

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I was answering a specific question, was I not?

Yes, but you still chose not to include it in your long list of possibilities. 

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7 hours ago, AdesteFideles said:

Yes, but you still chose not to include it in your long list of possibilities. 

well, there is also possibility that lyanna is mistress or wife of aerys, or paramour of arthur, etc. do you want list all? 

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4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

well, there is also possibility that lyanna is mistress or wife of aerys, or paramour of arthur, etc. do you want list all? 

No there isn't. 

If you have any evidence for the above - apart from wishful thinking - I'd love to read it.

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