Post show Battle analysis

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

32 minutes ago, tugela said:

Ramsey's battle plan was brilliant, and is modeled after Edward I at the battle of Falkirk as depicted in the movie Braveheart. First he engages in psychological warfare in killing Rickon in full view of the opposing army in order to provoke them into a rash move. Then he sends in the Karstarks and Umbers to engage the enemy in melee. Once the melee is under way, he uses his archers to cut down everyone who is in the melee, both friend and foe. Afterwards, once numbers have been sufficiently reduced he sends in his infantry shield wall to surround and kill everyone in the melee. In doing so he gets rid of the Stark army, as well as the Karstarks and Umbers, who are still engaged in the melee not knowing that the Boltons are killing everyone before them. If he was successful, there would literally be no one left in the North with sufficient power to challenge his authority.

It was an outstanding piece of generalmanship, and it should have been spectacularly successful, except for the unexpected arrival of the Vale forces. The North lost probably their greatest general that day.

I'm puzzled why the show is trying to portray Ramsay that brilliant when in the book it's much different? So it's a great idea to make a fanatic so powerful huh? And seriously killing your own people only works in the battle where you get like 100. 000 people, not 6000. 

[Great Winter Knight]

17 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Jon is a crappy battle commander if he let's another commander play him like that.  Ramsey played himmlike a violin.  It took riping off Tolkien to get him out of the jam he had created.

I don't many people could see there brother get shot in the back and not do something. It's not like Ramsay was calling mean names and saying he's a sissy for not charging him. Ramsay released jons brother only to shoot him a hairs breath away from being "safe". I agree that it was the ultimate bait for Jon but oome can not blame Jon too harshly for what he did. 

[DaMavs]

1 minute ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I'm puzzled why the show is trying to portray Ramsay that brilliant when in the book it's much different? So it's a great idea to make a fanatic so powerful huh? And seriously killing your own people only works in the battle where you get like 100. 000 people, not 6000. 

And it's only logical to sacrifice your men if this is the last battle you expect to fight.  Ramsay had to feel he needs a strong garrison to hold off against other threats - like the Lannisters who Roose indicated would likely be coming for him eventually due to the Sansa marriage.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Just now, DaMavs said:

And it's only logical to sacrifice your men if this is the last battle you expect to fight.  Ramsay had to feel he needs a strong garrison to hold off against other threats - like the Lannisters who Roose indicated would likely be coming for him eventually due to the Sansa marriage.

Lol yeah. Seriously whoever write this plot need some hit on their head. As if he had 60.000 people in the first place.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Great Winter Knight said:

I don't many people could see there brother get shot in the back and not do something. It's not like Ramsay was calling mean names and saying he's a sissy for not charging him. Ramsay released jons brother only to shoot him a hairs breath away from being "safe". I agree that it was the ultimate bait for Jon but oome can not blame Jon too harshly for what he did. 

That's fair.  But I hate to say it, Sansa was right, Rickon was dead as soon as Ramsey had hold of him.

[King Perkis]

9 minutes ago, tugela said:

Well, Littlejon was killed by Jon on the field, so he was one of those encircled in the melee. He was going down as well, although he may not have known it.

He may have been OK with the idea of the archers taking down the melee, but I suspect not so much being caught inside the shield wall. Because everyone on the wrong side of the spears was going to die.

Be that as it may, Ramsey's battleplan was flawless outside of the Vale's unexpected arrival on the field.

Smalljon was killed by Tormund at the base of the body pile, because smalljon and whoever was with him were there preventing Stark men from getting out of the shield wall encirclement.  Again, I don't understand two of three houses that have army's large enough to somewhat challenge the Boltons alone being ok with their men being slaughtered in the melee and friendly fire while the Bolton men stand back and fire said arrows before entering the battle behind a massive shield wall.  I wouldn't say his battle plan was flawless but that's personal opinion

[HellasLEAF]

The battle itself had a lot of good things happen to make it memorable and there were a number of logistical issues that kept it from being above criticism.

Those that stand out were..

- Rickon stupid running

- Ramsey perfect shot

- Jon running out stupidly

- The Vale showing up when it did to save the day.

- The numbers towards the end.  Didn't add up.

- Ramsey's tactics in general.  

- Under utilized Wun Wun.  

[tugela]

18 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I'm puzzled why the show is trying to portray Ramsay that brilliant when in the book it's much different? So it's a great idea to make a fanatic so powerful huh? And seriously killing your own people only works in the battle where you get like 100. 000 people, not 6000. 

In war the ruthless usually win. Some sacrifices are necessary to ensure victory. Any good commander knows this, and sometimes he has to send men on what are effectively suicide missions in order to win the battle.

It is tactical, you don't do it just for the hell of it, you do it to gain a critical advantage. Which is what Ramsey did.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

3 minutes ago, tugela said:

In war the ruthless usually win. Some sacrifices are necessary to ensure victory. Any good commander knows this, and sometimes he has to send men on what are effectively suicide missions in order to win the battle.

It is tactical, you don't do it just for the hell of it, you do it to gain a critical advantage. Which is what Ramsey did.

Ramsay should have read Romance of 3 kingdoms to learn about good battle strategies. Period. It is stupid to kill of your people when you only have 6000 and there are still more potential enemies to come (The south could send double or even triple the amount of that). If anything this doesn't mean he is brilliant strategist, it only says he is a stupid general who doesn't have long term view. 

[tugela]

18 minutes ago, DaMavs said:

And it's only logical to sacrifice your men if this is the last battle you expect to fight.  Ramsay had to feel he needs a strong garrison to hold off against other threats - like the Lannisters who Roose indicated would likely be coming for him eventually due to the Sansa marriage.

Immediate threats are of greater concern than hypothetical ones. By the time the Lannisters got around to doing anything, if they did anything at all, the Boltons would have been able to regroup. Also, the Lannisters were a southern army, not used to fighting in a frozen landscape. That would have placed them at a distinct disadvantage fighting in the North.

[Iron Victory's Captain]

Where did those Stannis riders come from? Did we see any survivors this season before this ep?
I'm okay with Davos rallying what men are left, I just didn't know there were any...

[tugela]

3 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Ramsay should have read Romance of 3 kingdoms to learn about good battle strategies. Period. It is stupid to kill of your people when you only have 6000 and there are still more potential enemies to come (The south could send double or even triple the amount of that). If anything this doesn't mean he is brilliant strategist, it only says he is a stupid general who doesn't have long term view. 

By executing the battle strategy he did, he would have eliminated the immediate threat, as well as eliminated dubious allies who might well turn on him when and if the Lannisters invaded. Remember, these were people who refused to make an oath of loyalty to him, so he could expect them to be fair weather friends only. By getting rid of them he would not have to watch his back if a greater conflict with the South ensued.

In any case, once he had an heir out of Sansa, she would be expendable. Roose would have taken a calculated risk that he could do that in time to avert any war with the south.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

5 minutes ago, tugela said:

Immediate threats are of greater concern than hypothetical ones. By the time the Lannisters got around to doing anything, if they did anything at all, the Boltons would have been able to regroup. Also, the Lannisters were a southern army, not used to fighting in a frozen landscape. That would have placed them at a distinct disadvantage fighting in the North.

You know what, there are much easier way to kill off Jon's army without that much of loss. This just show that the writers were stupid and naive. 

[Smoke317]

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

He absolutely "had a choice".  He is simply portrayed as being unable to make the hard choice.  Jon's choicd killed most of his men.  Would Ned have seen that as Jon doing his duty? 

So what choice did he have???  Ramsey was not gonna mount a full on attack at Jon.  Jon led from the front which got Ramsey to play his hand and send in his cavalry and infantry. If Jon didn't charge in, Ramsey would have stayed put. His men were gonna get killed one way or another.  It was actually unrealistic for them to allow the shield wall to surround them. But I guess they had to "allow" that for dramatic purposes.  Now if Jon had the Vale forces in reserve to attack Ramsey's rear and flanks after he sent in his cavalry, he wouldn't have lost as many men vs the shield wall.  Sansa left Jon in a fucked up position by withholding information and an army. 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

23 minutes ago, tugela said:

By executing the battle strategy he did, he would have eliminated the immediate threat, as well as eliminated dubious allies who might well turn on him when and if the Lannisters invaded. Remember, these were people who refused to make an oath of loyalty to him, so he could expect them to be fair weather friends only. By getting rid of them he would not have to watch his back if a greater conflict with the South ensued.

In any case, once he had an heir out of Sansa, she would be expendable. Roose would have taken a calculated risk that he could do that in time to avert any war with the south.

They go out on battle for him, killing them off would only make others run away from him. The North don't have that large of an amount of people to fight in the first place. This just show that Ramsay is a short-sighted guy who takes pleasure in killing. You know this kind of strategy will only work when you have a large amount of army. By killing of these people it is a stupid move. You don't have people coming for you after knowing that you killed your own army. 

[King Perkis]

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Don't know why this is making me right in for someone else. Either way, why did Davos lead the remaining men/archers into the mosh pit of death. I don't understand why he couldn't bring up the archers and just place them closer in order to avoid allowing Ramsey to bring anymore men into the fight.

[Darksky]

Miguel Sapochnik and others have worked wonders with that battle scene. Masterful directing, choreography, vfx etc There has never been anything like this on TV before and I've hardly seen battles that expertly directed on silver screen.

 

We can hardly expect a panicked teenager to show superior survival skills. Most adults wouldn't. And serpentine is no guarantee of success (it;s shit against sniper fire). it would end the same way actually. Running in serpentine fashion would give Ramsay more time to  aim and shoot arrows.

Jon lost his shit and he went into the battle not expecting to survive (maybe even wanting to die), his behaviour when Rickon gets killed is understandable.

 I doubt anyone would repect him if he sat back like a coward and let his half-bro get killed. When he was already midday, there was no point in turning back. He'd just have gotten shot in the back (no way to observe arrows' trajectory).

I actually think the Knights of the Vale waited for the good moment to strike, to catch Ramsay's troops unawares.

[Jarl Halstein]

18 hours ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

Well, just I suspected, they made Jon look dumb and Ramsay the equivalent of Anibal Barca in Westeros

Sadly, yes.

Jon: "They killed my brother, who Sansa just yesterday reminded me was a great threat to Ramsay as he's the true heir to the North! I could never have expected that and prepared mentally for it! Now I must charge the enemy alone, so I can easily be killed and my whole army will lose its leader and lose morale! Doesn't matter that my actions will get many others killed, and that when we have lost all those Wildling women will be raped and then slaughtered along with the children. All that matters is my own drama, 'cause that's just how good and responsible of a commander I am."

Seriously, at this point, who in his right mind would follow a Stark commander? They have shown that they are prepared to sacrifice thousands with the risks they take. Starting with Ned not quickly leaving King's Landing to raise an army, like Renly urged him to do, because his honor forbade him leaving his post, and it only got worse from there.

And I say this even though I love the idea of the Stark family - the wardens of the North, firm, austere, uncorrupted. But the author and the producers give them such a bad treatment just to make things dramatic. "Someone needs to mess this up for effect. Let a Stark do it."

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

50 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

You know what, there are much easier way to kill off Jon's army without that much of loss. This just show that the writers were stupid and naive. 

Yes, and No. I think the only thing they did right was portray Ramsay being so Narrow minded. 

I've said it before what they should have done was: flip "The Game" on its head. They set it up as Sansa playing the game. Set it up that the Starks were he major underdog and the Vale was coming to save the day. 

So if they would have had the Starks winning by the time the Vale shows up. That would have been the shocker that they always go for and they could have achieved a bloody battle that they wanted by having Ramsay Slaughter his own men and the bodies building up could have been used as an advantage. Because in all reality a huge pike and shield would have been impossible for them to climb the bodies. Letting stark men pick them off while they climbed. AND they could have had a double home run Narratively and Plot wise. As Plot is ultimately the "walls" you build that your hero as to get around/over/through and what did that cost them and how did they do it. Narratively it would have played into the theme that "the game" is petty.  Yes some people will complain that the Starks got off easy, which they didn't they lost a brother and they would have lost many men that they needed for the battle in the north. And anyone who lost a relative would know that pain and how much it costs. And the villain fucked up it plays into how readers see him and into his arrogance in the show.

Also you wouldn't have seen it coming because we knew they would win but we had the cav and the Vale to save the day. Anyway that's my two cents.

[Jarl Halstein]

17 hours ago, RobertF said:

Why the hell didn't Jon Snow deploy Wun Wun more effectively in the battle? Wun Wun could have outflanked the Bolton battle line or even stepped over it. Or simply wielded a big piece of timber and cleared the enemy ranks.

Yes, I thought so too. Wun Wun should have run to the side when the shield carriers approached. They'd have a giant in their backs, meaning those on that side would have focused on Wun Wun instead of becoming dead meat.

And why was there never any armor made for Wun Wun? He is clearly one of their few aces. Plus he's the obvious target for arrows. He didn't even get a helmet. And no club to wield.

Hey Wun Wun, love having you here, now go fight the enemy with your hands willya?