TheSerb Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, ToTheWolves said: I think Ramsey belived wun wun was the bigger threat at the moment(pun intended) if Ramsay shot Jon he would've had to worry about wun wun raging out no matter how injured. Ramsay probably thought he could kill wun wun then Jon. Well that doesn't really make sense, considering that Wun Wun had just fallen on his knees and was dying due to all the arrows and spears he was riddled with. Ramsay didn't exactly kill him, just finished him off. But even afterwards, they had him wait and talk and slowly pull out an arrow instead of just rushing the guy. I guess you could chalk it up to Ramsay being a psychopath who likes to torture people, so he did not want to kill Jon quickly, but in that situation he definitely would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1NT3RF3LL Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: He absolutely "had a choice". He is simply portrayed as being unable to make the hard choice. Jon's choicd killed most of his men. Would Ned have seen that as Jon doing his duty? He couldn't live the heir of winterfell running in a field with arrows being flung at him. You aren't serious right? He had to at least attempt to do something. He couldn't leave his brother out there to die. Secondly, Ramsey was not going to charge first, it was pretty clear that wasn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, W1NT3RF3LL said: What I also find interesting in this thread is that no one has spoke of Jon's god like powers in being completely untouched when he charged in front of a 1000 on coming mounted horses. He is something so much more at this point. I mean he was killing everyone and arrows were missing him and he divided a cavalierly into two. You're right. It's almost impossible for Jon to have left that field without a wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 minute ago, W1NT3RF3LL said: He couldn't live the heir of winterfell running in a field with arrows being flung at him. You aren't serious right? He had to at least attempt to do something. He couldn't leave his brother out there to die. Secondly, Ramsey was not going to charge first, it was pretty clear that wasn't going to happen. I'm completely serious. Jon had a duty to the men he led. He wasted their lives but for the ride of the Arrynhirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1NT3RF3LL Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I'm completely serious. Jon had a duty to the men he led. He wasted their lives but for the ride of the Arrynhirm. He was the only one that went out there. He had a duty for his brother as well. Not only was Winterfell part of the objective but so was securing his brother. Either way you slice it Ramsey was not going to charge first, which is what Jon needed to have in order to have any hope of winning the battle. Ramsey had the upper hand from the get go, more men, the castle, and the hostage. Either way you look at it he was wasting their lives to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 11 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said: He was the only one that went out there. He had a duty for his brother as well. Not only was Winterfell part of the objective but so was securing his brother. Either way you slice it Ramsey was not going to charge first, which is what Jon needed to have in order to have any hope of winning the battle. Ramsey had the upper hand from the get go, more men, the castle, and the hostage. Either way you look at it he was wasting their lives to begin with. In fairness had Jon not gone after Rickon Ramsey would probably have just retired to Winterfell. Why risk pitched battle at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Yes it was a poor battle tactic but Jon being a compassionate guy who will put himself in harms' way to protect people is what I love about the character. It was stupid to lose his cool but Rickon was his brother. Unlike Dany, Jon's first instinct isn't to burn things down and crucify people who gets in his way. If I was a Westerosi peasant right now I would prefer Jon to Dany right now because he puts others' interests before his. Of course, he needs to learn to be smart about it and not let his compassion by used against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1NT3RF3LL Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: In fairness had Jon not gone after Rickon Ramsey would probably have just retired to Winterfell. Why risk pitched battle at all? Can't argue you on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: In fairness had Jon not gone after Rickon Ramsey would probably have just retired to Winterfell. Why risk pitched battle at all? You go for Rickon, yes, but once Rickon goes down, instead of charging at Ramsay, return to your own lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1NT3RF3LL Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just now, Kytheros said: You go for Rickon, yes, but once Rickon goes down, instead of charging at Ramsay, return to your own lines. For what? He was already half way across the battle field and you think Ramsey would have just let him go back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsStocksey Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 51 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Jon held the wall againsf Mance's horde. His father trained all his sons in command. I suggest it is more emotionally affecting to see Jon have to stand fast and watch his brother die than take the obvious choice of attempting a heroic, but stupid, failed attempt to save his brother. You are correct that he was in charge of the wall for part of the battle but he was also high above the action for most of that....when he did get into the fray he stopped still halfway through the fight because he saw Ygritte! He probably should have had his head taken off right there by a wildling. Also, training at Winterfell about the theory of command is very different to actually having been tried and tested on a battlefield. I guess it's down to personal preference about what has more emotional impact but I'm arguing that a crazy desperate decision, driven by love for his brother, is much more in keeping with the character of show Jon Snow than a calculated logical response. (Perhaps book Jon would have stood fast? not sure though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Yes. It is dumb but it is in keeping with Jon's character. And charging in to save a brother strikes me as a nobler dumb mistake than Robb breaking an important alliance because he was getting laid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U-238A Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 To anyone who keeps pointing out flaws in their tactics. These "commanders" are characters in a tv show for crying out loud. And it was clear they had their own agendas. Put yourself in their shoes and stop trying to remove all the emotion and personality out of them. If you did, you'd have a pretty terrible and boring show with little to no action. Ramsay was clearly happy to trade 1 for 1 until the final enemy given his huge numerical advantage. Contrasted with Davos' orders... he couldn't afford a single friendly fire shot. Epic battle. The mountain of bodies was a bit much though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasing the dragons Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Why didn't Wun Wun have a weapon? Part of a tree trunk maybe? When they were being surrounded by the shield wall, couldn't Wun Wun have grabbed a spear and started stabbing soldiers from above? Weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U-238A Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just now, chasing the dragons said: Why didn't Wun Wun have a weapon? Part of a tree trunk maybe? When they were being surrounded by the shield wall, couldn't Wun Wun have grabbed a spear and started stabbing soldiers from above? Weak. He doesn't really need one, does he? His fists are clearly as devastating, or at least sufficiently devastating as anything he could wield. In a fight, if I could swat flies just as easily with my hands as I could with a shoe, I wouldn't bother with the shoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fexyr Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I'm completely serious. Jon had a duty to the men he led. He wasted their lives but for the ride of the Arrynhirm. It was his baby brother. Maybe it wasn't the right thing, but it was the human thing and I can't see Jon being any different. Ned would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tormond Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 They been making Jon look Dumb and unsure ever since he came back from the dead, i hope this ends after this battle. He was the best commander on the Wall and the most sure of what he was doing before he died. I really hope he wakes up before Sansa makes a power move on him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeGavph Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I'd have to say that the opening battle arrays on both sides were seriously flawed. Both sides had missiles in the front, then came the cavalry in a column in the center-front, and at the rear came the infantry. There is really no reason to do this (especially Ramsay). According to common sense, the cavalry should be divided upon both wings or simply consolidated on one wing. Not only is the cavalry losing precious room for on-the-spot reactive maneuvers by being spread out on a column in the center-front, they are also blocking the infantry which forms up the bulk of the forces. They are also greatly hindered by the archers up front. The archers themselves will also have a much harder time falling back behind lines when there are horsemen behind them rather than the infantry as is normal. This is really, one of the most unreasonable battle arrays I can think of. The actual use of the forces was also puzzling as well. Ramsay had well trained and geared spearmen who were capable of flawlessly employing a sort of phalanx formation. And then he sends his precious cavalry head-on to Jons.... And then showers them with arrows, killing more of his own then Jons. Pure dumb-assery unless of course,the whole point was to kill off the bulk of his mounted forces, which would be made up of Northern noblemen. If he had the good sense to use a normal and reasonable array, he would have crushed Jon with significantly fewer losses and may have even been able to react to the Vale forces' sudden intervention, which would have allowed him to preserve the bulk of his forces and retreat back to Winterfell. But who cares? It was television, and some damn good epic television:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 26 minutes ago, U-238A said: To anyone who keeps pointing out flaws in their tactics. These "commanders" are characters in a tv show for crying out loud. And it was clear they had their own agendas. Put yourself in their shoes and stop trying to remove all the emotion and personality out of them. If you did, you'd have a pretty terrible and boring show with little to no action. Ramsay was clearly happy to trade 1 for 1 until the final enemy given his huge numerical advantage. Contrasted with Davos' orders... he couldn't afford a single friendly fire shot. Epic battle. The mountain of bodies was a bit much though. God forbid D&D try subtlety. It's not good unless it's turned up to 11. Do you really think having to watch your brother be killed is less "emotionally affecting" because Jon chose to be smart and not get his troops killed while doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasing the dragons Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 21 minutes ago, U-238A said: He doesn't really need one, does he? His fists are clearly as devastating, or at least sufficiently devastating as anything he could wield. In a fight, if I could swat flies just as easily with my hands as I could with a shoe, I wouldn't bother with the shoe. In a battle where they are outmanned 2-1, he could've incapacitated 8-10 soldiers per tree swing and he could've decimated a shield wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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