Post show Battle analysis

[Pies are coming]

2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Well lets say she did know. She tells Jon. The Vale comes. No way is Ramsay taking his troops in the field. He's prepping for siege and all it takes is a few weeks and one storm.

She tells Jon. Jon sends outriders to meet the Vale commanders and coordinate plans. He also keeps light cavalry scouting around to stop Bolton's scouts (which ended up useless, but he can't count on that).

He then plans to lure Ramsay away by the time the Knights of the Vale are about to arrive and play a defensive battle until then.

So, essentially, the exact same thing he does in this episode. With one, big, major, difference: Jon and Sansa trust each other and can become effective leaders.

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Pies are coming said:

She tells Jon. Jon sends outriders to meet the Vale commanders and coordinate plans. He also keeps light cavalry scouting around to stop Bolton's scouts (which ended up useless, but he can't count on that).

He then plans to lure Ramsay away by the time the Knights of the Vale are about to arrive and play a defensive battle until then.

So, essentially, the exact same thing he does in this episode. With one, big, major, difference: Jon and Sansa trust each other and can become effective leaders.

Fair enough. I still don't think she knew. I mean Tywin likewise could have sent a Raven to KL before Blackwater but he didn't. But it's a fair point that it would be very coincidental.

[tmug]

27 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Ramsay sees cavalry charging and sends his own cavalry head on?

He has a ton of men with pikes! Pikes are super-effective against cavalry!! Everyone who played Total War knows that!!!

He also has a ton of archers who could take down that cavalry just like in the Battle of Crecy!

The last thing you would do is send your cavalry head on against the enemys cavalry IN THE FOOKIN BEGUINING OF THE BATTLE! Specially if you have the high ground higher numbers and long range advantage.

 

I hate Sansa more now then ever. If she had spoken to Jon about the Vale's army they could have saved so many lives and could have planned the battle knowing they had the upper hand of the element of surprise. Lead the Bolton army to think they had the advantage and crush them.

Seven hells! Someone please tell me there was a valid reason for Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale Army because I can't see any.

If I were Jon I would be FURIOUS with Sansa.

Well Ramsays whole strategy was to literally build a wall of corpses to that the shields and pikemen could surround Jon. Ramsay happened to study the American Civil War it seems. Jon got suckered into it and nullified his own archers.

Why did Ramsay use his cavalry? Dead men and dead horses pp quicker. Ramsay won the battle strategy over Jon by far

[Boarsbane]

7 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Fair enough. I still don't think she knew. I mean Tywin likewise could have sent a Raven to KL before Blackwater but he didn't. But it's a fair point that it would be very coincidental.

Ravens can be shot down and their letters read, and it's not like coordination would of mattered any during Blackwater. They either survive until Tywin and the Tyrells arrive or they die.

[bfin]

40 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

 

If I were Jon I would be FURIOUS with Sansa.

I wouldn't. She saved his life and they retook Winterfell. Mission accomplished 

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

55 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Well lets say she did know. She tells Jon. The Vale comes. No way is Ramsay taking his troops in the field. He's prepping for siege and all it takes is a few weeks and one storm.

Ramsay didn't see the Vale army untill they were all over him.

They could have come in flanking just like they did but Jon would have prepared to gain time and keep Ramsay distracted. They could have been more defensive knowing they had the surprise element. Its a complete game changer.

[illinifan]

Perhaps Sansa didn't know the Vale knights were coming?  

And yes, Jon is still stupid and impulsive (but an impressive fighter.)  The battlefield commander should never be going on impulsive charges like Jon did even to save his little brother.  However, Jon is still Jon.  I just hope he starts learning from some of his mistakes already.  Based on the previews 

Spoiler

He does have to make some sort of judgement regarding Shireen.  Perhaps he ends up doing the practical thing rather than the "just" thing and doesn't banish or execute Melisandre.  He needs both of them.

 

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

28 minutes ago, bfin said:

I wouldn't. She saved his life and they retook Winterfell. Mission accomplished 

They could have bought time waiting for the army. Hit and run tactics. They could have planned a sincronized attack from different directions. Thousands of lives could be saved.

Oh and the other thing. She lied. But no biggie there because she has a woman card.

Also LF might prove to be worse than Ramsay... but you know... who cares. She saved the day! Hurray!

[TheKnightOfJests]

Would have been nice if Wildlings had some shields.... and if the people fighting for the Starks had some spears.......

[Forlong the Fat]

3 minutes ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

Would have been nice if Wildlings had some shields.... and if the people fighting for the Starks had some spears.......

One wonders how the battle was supposed to go for them. It all went out the window when Jon charged instead of trying to get Ramsey to charge as planned. 

[tmug]

6 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

One wonders how the battle was supposed to go for them. It all went out the window when Jon charged instead of trying to get Ramsey to charge as planned. 

Welcome to the "Game" now Jon. I hope this was a lesson learned. Blackfish seemed to have better strategy when dealing with Edmure.

[Lilly Kim]

20 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

but Jon would have prepared to gain time and keep Ramsay distracted. They could have been more defensive knowing they had the surprise element. Its a complete game changer.

Yes, he would've prepared. And he would've abandoned this plan also with all the other strategy after Ramsay played him anyway. So, good thing Sansa didn't tell him, I guess.

Like she pointed on the night before the battle, she wasn't given a voice at council, so I bother? If it was me, I would've kept this card to myself too just to throw in his face that my (Sansa's, in this case) voice is very valid and she's a player as well. But, no, let's not listen to the woman who literally lived with the enemy...

[The Onion Kniggit]

I do love the gritty and grimy theme behind the battle. Oftentimes Hollywood depicts battles as being way too organized and clean instead of the dirty crazy fuckfest they can easily devolve into. Nice camera work too.

However the tactics in this battle were just plain moronic, especially Jon Snows. As noted in the show many times, neither side could afford to lose a lot of man. Jon barely has anyone and the people he does have are mostly ill disciplined while Roose already warmed Ramsay that they will be dealing with the Lannisters in the future and thus shouldn't waste men. What happens? Despite having the greater numbers, Ramsay throws his heavy cCalvary (generally the strongest units in a medieval army) into the fray and then decides to to fire indiscriminately at them for some reason. A war of attrition is a terrible idea when either side has less than 10k men.... even more so when you literally killing your own men to win. As someone mentioned already, he could've let his shielded pikemen deal with the Stark calvary, but then again even "the finest military commander in Westeros" couldn't grasp that concept, so I forgive Ramsey.

Jon snow... urgh Jesus Christ, I though Stannis' tactics and suicidal rush were ludicrous in season 5 and he was someone who had nothing to live for and didn't care anymore. WTF was this emo kid trying to accomplish? 

Of course Ramsay like the other great generals in the show also has no concept of what a scout is.

Then again, maybe its not his fault. Isn't there suppose to be a god damn Northern army guarding Moat Cailin which is said to be nearly non penetrable from the south with only a few men? What happened to them? I guess Baelish and his Vale army must have teleport behind them.

[Forlong the Fat]

2 minutes ago, tmug said:

Welcome to the "Game" now Jon. I hope this was a lesson learned. Blackfish seemed to have better strategy when dealing with Edmure.

Jon's first battle didn't go so well. Hopefully he will get better. 

 

[TwiceBorn]

1 hour ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Ramsay sees cavalry charging and sends his own cavalry head on?

He has a ton of men with pikes! Pikes are super-effective against cavalry!! Everyone who played Total War knows that!!!

He also has a ton of archers who could take down that cavalry just like in the Battle of Crecy!

The last thing you would do is send your cavalry head on against the enemys cavalry IN THE FOOKIN BEGUINING OF THE BATTLE! Specially if you have the high ground higher numbers and long range advantage.

Well apparently Ramsey didn't play Total War.

The truth is - countering cavalry with cavalry is pretty normal thing in warfare. This is how lot of battles have started. If you have the higher grounds it is absolute necessity! Why? You avoid getting flanked and/or punched through the gap in the main line. If you rout your enemy, the flying horsemen will disturb the enemy lines (something that NEVER happens in Total War) which allows you to follow the initial charge with reserves and end battle in the matter of minutes.

Total War has invisible observation balloons for generals, invisible cell phones for the generals, units that hold cohesion and fight at 100% no matter what, even when another unit squeezes through them, horses that are capable of turning 180 on the spot, mortar-archers who fire blindly with 100% accuracy and spear/shieldwalls that hold even after flanked or surrounded and can turn on the spot and slaughter their opponent with sudden "anti-cavalry-bonus" not to mention their ability to warp their pikes out, charge and warp in the pikes in the last second. That is why execution of "hammer and anvil" is easy, while in realty only a professional army with very good commanders and perfect timing could pull something like that.

[Arya_Stormborn]

2 hours ago, Kurkuas said:

It would've been great, if D&D had created a second Battle of Cannae, but anyway the outcome was clear.

When my husband saw this episode, he immediately said that this was the battle it reminded him of. (But with human bodies instead of water.)

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

29 minutes ago, Lilly Kim said:

Yes, he would've prepared. And he would've abandoned this plan also with all the other strategy after Ramsay played him anyway. So, good thing Sansa didn't tell him, I guess.

Like she pointed on the night before the battle, she wasn't given a voice at council, so I bother? If it was me, I would've kept this card to myself too just to throw in his face that my (Sansa's, in this case) voice is very valid and she's a player as well. But, no, let's not listen to the woman who literally lived with the enemy...

Listen to what? He listened to her speak and she didn't say anything. She only said she didn't knew about battles. She didn'y even told him about the army.

If she wanted to be aknowledged as a player the best thing she could have done was to tell that she alone had got the biggest army in the region to fight for her. Dont you think? Everyone would bow down in praises.

How is lying to your familly and allies any better? 

"Oh I'm so great. Why can't anyone see it? Why can't they just assume I'm badass? It must be the patriarchy. It must be sexism. They will regret not asking battle plans to a teenage girl I'll let them suffer first and then I will come with my secret army and save the day. They will love me because I am beautifull and have seduced a middle aged man into giving me me an army."

She's the one being played by LittleFinger. He will be viewed has the hero.

Time will tell.

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

2 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Ramsay sees cavalry charging and sends his own cavalry head on?

He has a ton of men with pikes! Pikes are super-effective against cavalry!! Everyone who played Total War knows that!!!

He also has a ton of archers who could take down that cavalry just like in the Battle of Crecy!

The last thing you would do is send your cavalry head on against the enemys cavalry IN THE FOOKIN BEGUINING OF THE BATTLE! Specially if you have the high ground higher numbers and long range advantage.

 

I hate Sansa more now then ever. If she had spoken to Jon about the Vale's army they could have saved so many lives and could have planned the battle knowing they had the upper hand of the element of surprise. Lead the Bolton army to think they had the advantage and crush them.

Seven hells! Someone please tell me there was a valid reason for Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale Army because I can't see any.

If I were Jon I would be FURIOUS with Sansa.

1.) There could be spies within Jon's camp. I think Sansa was certain enough that, with the extensive tutoring of Littlefinger, she can only help the Starks if she kept full control of the secret.

2.) Even without potential spies, Show-Jon does not seem the type who can beat Ramsey in mind reading. If Ramsay caught a wiff of anything suspicious (like an obvious trap or a suspiciously lackluster attack by Show-Jon), he would retreat to Winterfell with a greater amount of soldiers.

 

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

2 minutes ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

1.) There could be spies within Jon's camp. I think Sansa was certain enough that, with the extensive tutoring of Littlefinger, she can only help the Starks if she kept full control of the secret.

2.) Even without potential spies, Show-Jon does not seem the type who can beat Ramsey in mind reading. If Ramsay caught a wiff of anything suspicious (like an obvious trap), I would retreat to Winterfell with a greater amount of soldier.

Lol this is what I was talking about. Theories trying to justify bad writing and inconsistencies.

Sansa knew there were spies

All happened according to LF plan. He came and saved the day. Sansa got played. She allways betrays her familly one way or another.

[Forlong the Fat]

5 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Lol this is what I was talking about. Theories trying to justify bad writing and inconsistencies.

Sansa knew there were spies

All happened according to LF plan. He came and saved the day. Sansa got played. She allways betrays her familly one way or another.

Sansa is not a perfect character. She is a bit selfish and a bit dishonest.  She is the person whose lies killed Lady and Ned. She has grown as a character since that time, in part by tutelage from LF. She didn't betray her family in this instance, but she wasn't as honest as she could have been either. Her motivations for that dishonesty remain to be seen. 

But none of that is bad writing. Sansa being either perfect or perfectly terrible would be bad writing.