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Alfonso Sánchez

Is Jon Snow finally among the best swordmen?As

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As the title says, Is finally Jon Snow in the show standing amongst the elite?, say, the hound, Brienne, Jaime (not crippled), Oberynn?.

We saw him besting everyone in that battlefield, maybe not tactically, but he did survive a lot with his so called plot armor and skill.

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By my count, Jon killed 19(counting Ramsey). I know tons of people want to bitch about the battle but I thought it was awesome. I don't tune in to watch hero's fail, I want the hero's to fucking slay it in battle. So yes, Show Jon is right up there with the very best in the show.

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They are setting him up to be one of the better ones.  So far he hasn't really faced any other fighters considered to be great though.  Halfhand "let" Jon kill him, and that was probably the closest.  The men he was slaying (which agree visually looked great) were probably mostly general men-at-arms or commoners pressed into serivce, not the other lords/knights.  I do think he is clearly well above an average fighter, would be interesting to see how the show chooses to portray him going forward if he comes across another great fighter.

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Yeah, seems like he is considered elite in universe pre-battle based on what Ramsey said. On the surface though he does have a lot of great deeds, even though some of his deeds are a little overrated, if not fabricated, but some are real good too though. Let's do a run down of swordsmanship.

1) was by far the best swordsman in the Nights Watch recruits. Not a great feat though seeing as the others never really handled weapons before.

2) killed Qhorin Halfhand - Obviosly not really applicable even though some people, i.e. Wildlings, may think it's a huge deal. In universe probably big ups for this one, but not deserved.

3) killed Karl f*ckin Tanner and the mutineers at Crasters. Would have lost if not for Crasters wife but no one knows that. But again, big ups in universe for defending the Nights Watch

4) killed Magnar of Thenn - probably his best fight as of that time, in universe or just watching still good  accomplishment.

5) helped defend the wall against Mance's army. Not a great from a swordsmanship perspective outside of the Magnar but I can see it getting blown up, like Jon led the defense of the Wall against 100k Wildlings.

6) killed WW at Hardhome, this probably made him so famous in the North for the people, not many, who believe in the WW. First person to actually kill a WW, let's be real, no one believed Samwell.

7) killed Olly - Fuck Olly

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i think the BoB definitely showed off his prowess.  hard to really tell if he's one of the best or not as he hasn't went against any of the aforementioned fighters whom many consider to be the best in the land - but keep in mind that he did slay a WW as well as surviving the battle at HardHome and when the Wildlings attacked the wall.  I'd probably put him right up there in the top 5 at the moment.  

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If we are going by the show he's the best in the North. Who could compete with him? In terms of the whole realm it goes:

1. Brienne

2. Hound

3. Bronn

4. Jon

Of course this is just my opinion based on what we've seen in the show. In the books Brienne would be below the Hound and Bronn but still above Jon. Plus we have Loras and Garlan Tyrell, Areo Hotah (not a swordsman but as a fighter), Lyn Corbray, Yohn Royce, Victarion Greyjoy, etc. that I would put above Jon. He honestly never struck me as an exceptional fighter in the books. Good yes, certainly better than his Night's Watch contemporaries, but he hasn't shown anything to be put in the elite.

Undoubtedly in show canon he is top tier though.

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8 minutes ago, El Diego said:

If we are going by the show he's the best in the North. Who could compete with him? In terms of the whole realm it goes:

1. Brienne

2. Hound

3. Bronn

4. Jon

Of course this is just my opinion based on what we've seen in the show. In the books Brienne would be below the Hound and Bronn but still above Jon. Plus we have Loras and Garlan Tyrell, Areo Hotah (not a swordsman but as a fighter), Lyn Corbray, Yohn Royce, Victarion Greyjoy, etc. that I would put above Jon. He honestly never struck me as an exceptional fighter in the books. Good yes, certainly better than his Night's Watch contemporaries, but he hasn't shown anything to be put in the elite.

Undoubtedly in show canon he is top tier though.

Definitely agree for the books, I mean Mance runs shop on him 1v1 when he is glamoured as the Lord a Bones. 

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5 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Of course this is just my opinion based on what we've seen in the show. In the books Brienne would be below the Hound and Bronn but still above Jon. Plus we have Loras and Garlan Tyrell, Areo Hotah (not a swordsman but as a fighter), Lyn Corbray, Yohn Royce, Victarion Greyjoy, etc. that I would put above Jon. He honestly never struck me as an exceptional fighter in the books. Good yes, certainly better than his Night's Watch contemporaries, but he hasn't shown anything to be put in the elite

You're just naming names. The Tyrells are just tourney knights, has either ever had a real fight against anyone that matters on a battlefield? Royce is simply too old. Greyjoy? Again, who has he fought? Hotah? Big guy, big axe, went down easy. Lyn Cobray.. seriously? Even Brienne got lucky against the Hound and woulda got her butt kicked by a starved and emaciated Jaime if his hands weren't tied. The Magnar of Thenn was way tougher than Brienne and Jon beat him. Is Jon the best? Who's to say. That title basically goes to the last man standing, and Jon's still standing, so he's gotta be pretty damn good.

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6 minutes ago, Ice's Revenge said:

I thought it was interesting the Ramsey said many people in the north think he is one of the best

I thought it was pretty weird. How would he have gained any reputation (outside of the night's watch) by fighting behind or at the wall ?

He surely is a pretty good swordman by now, but the battle at Winterfell is most likely the first of his battles that brings him any fame in Westeros.

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5 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

I thought it was pretty weird. How would he have gained any reputation (outside of the night's watch) by fighting behind or at the wall ?

The North would know. As soon as Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Knight's Watch was announced, the first question would be 'why him?'. Then the stories would flow. I agree tho', the Battle of the Bastards would likely be the first the rest of Westeros would hear of Jon.

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17 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Of course this is just my opinion based on what we've seen in the show. In the books Brienne would be below the Hound and Bronn but still above Jon. Plus we have Loras and Garlan Tyrell, Areo Hotah (not a swordsman but as a fighter), Lyn Corbray, Yohn Royce, Victarion Greyjoy, etc. that I would put above Jon. He honestly never struck me as an exceptional fighter in the books. Good yes, certainly better than his Night's Watch contemporaries, but he hasn't shown anything to be put in the elite.

 

And don't forget Ser Barristan, who is alive in the books. Probably the finest swordman alive. As for Jon, yeah, he doesn't strike me as one of the best, but he's18? years old by the end of ADWD... He has time to improve.

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11 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

You're just naming names. The Tyrells are just tourney knights, has either ever had a real fight against anyone that matters on a battlefield? Royce is simply too old. Greyjoy? Again, who has he fought? Hotah? Big guy, big axe, went down easy. Lyn Cobray.. seriously? Even Brienne got lucky against the Hound and woulda got her butt kicked by a starved and emaciated Jaime if his hands weren't tied. The Magnar of Thenn was way tougher than Brienne and Jon beat him. Is Jon the best? Who's to say. That title basically goes to the last man standing, and Jon's still standing, so he's gotta be pretty damn good.

I'm naming names because they've done things in battle. Garlan in Battle of Blackwater, Victarion in renowned and took the Shield Islands, beat Ser Talbert Serry. A two handed, regular Jaime is multiple tiers better than anyone on this list.

I think we have a miscommunication. I stated that Jon is absolutely one of the best in the show. However, he strikes me as average in the books. Jon never fought the Magnar of Thenn in the books so I am assuming your post was purely about the show.

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54 minutes ago, jrod said:

They are setting him up to be one of the better ones.  So far he hasn't really faced any other fighters considered to be great though.  Halfhand "let" Jon kill him, and that was probably the closest.  The men he was slaying (which agree visually looked great) were probably mostly general men-at-arms or commoners pressed into serivce, not the other lords/knights.  I do think he is clearly well above an average fighter, would be interesting to see how the show chooses to portray him going forward if he comes across another great fighter.

Too many people rank Knights up as great swordsman. Look at how Bronn embarrassed the one he faced. Being a knight means you are trained to fight. Being a combat tested killer is something different. Jon learned a lot in the fight at Crasters keep and again against the Thenn, who was also a battle tested killer, who is larger and stronger.

So would Jon win some tourney and have pretty moves, no. Would I want Jon on my side in a battle, yep.

 

ETA - and yes this is show only

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2 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I'm naming names because they've done things in battle. Garlan is Battle of Blackwater, Victarion in renowned and took the Shield Islands, beat Ser Talbert Serry. A two handed, regular Jaime is multiple tiers better than anyone on this list.

I think we have a miscommunication. I stated that Jon is absolutely one of the best in the show. However, he strikes me as average in the books. Jon never fought the Magnar of Thenn in the books so I am assuming your post was purely about the show.

What did Garlan do outside of dressing in Renly's armour? Loras was never in a battle of note, same for Hotah that we're told of. Victarion is known mostly for defeating unaware farmers. Granted Jaime is brilliant, but tell me, what did Brienne ever do?

And of course the topic is 'show' Jon, the OP references Ramsay's quote... that was in the show.

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Just now, Rory Snow said:

What did Garlan do outside of dressing in Renly's armour? Loras was never in a battle of note, same for Hotah that we're told of. Victarion is known mostly for defeating unaware farmers. Granted Jaime is brilliant, but tell me, what did Brienne ever do?

And of course the topic is 'show' Jon, the OP references Ramsay's quote... that was in the show.

 

We can talk about show Jon for sure, I was just noting a distinction between him in the books and him in the show because I find it interesting and quite like that he is not a brilliant warrior in the books.

I'm not sure how to answer your first paragraph in light of your second. Are we discussing show or books? We can't meld them together.

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1 minute ago, El Diego said:

I'm not sure how to answer your first paragraph in light of your second. Are we discussing show or books? We can't meld them together.

Only you melded them together.. the OP was clearly about show Jon

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2 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Being invincible thanks to the script =/= best swordman

Would you prefer EVERY on going character get killed off? Somebody has to make it to the end don't they?

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