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Alfonso Sánchez

Is Jon Snow finally among the best swordmen?As

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1 minute ago, Rory Snow said:

Only you melded them together.. the OP was clearly about show Jon

I thought I separated them quite neatly, but apparently not. I'll make it clear here.

Show: Jon is #4 best fighter in Westeros and #1 in the North.

Books: Jon is ~mid 20s in Westeros, top 5 in the North probably (note: this is from what we've reasonably seen/heard, he's probably a bit lower if I had to guess).

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13 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

What did Garlan do outside of dressing in Renly's armour? Loras was never in a battle of note, same for Hotah that we're told of. Victarion is known mostly for defeating unaware farmers. Granted Jaime is brilliant, but tell me, what did Brienne ever do?

And of course the topic is 'show' Jon, the OP references Ramsay's quote... that was in the show.

My opinion: show Jon is easily in the top 5. Book Jon: above average and constantly progressing.

To answer some of your comments:

  • in the book Garlan killed Guyard Morrigen in single combat, who initially was one of Renly's kingsguards, until he switched to Stannis. He also regularly trains against multiple opponents. Loras, both book and show, fought at Blackwater; in the show, he essentially took over Garlan's role, and wore Renly's armor.  
  • Hotah was trained by an elite order of warrior-priests; in the book he kills one Kingsguard knight, and we can tell from this thoughts how attentive he is about his opponents (hence how much the show sucks in this regard, but that's another topic)
  • Victarion is a big fucker; he does kill a knight in battle; but I would not count him in the top 5, maybe not even top 10
  • Brienne won the melee at Bitterbridge where she beat a bunch of knights, including Loras; and the show has done a good job at her ability to fight multiple opponents; not to mention her fight with the Hound
  • Lyn Corbray is considered one of the best swordsmen in the Vale; at the battle of the Trident he killed a wounded Prince Lewyn Martell; but he's not in the show, so this is irrelevant (just wanted to have you informed :D

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6 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Being invincible thanks to the script =/= best swordman

Your right. 

Also, the Clegane brothers really suck at fighting, if not for the script making them big and good at fighting. So Clegane brothers =/= good fighters cause the script just makes them good fighters.

Also in real life King Aerys was really smart but that damn script again, so King Aerys =/= Mad.

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5 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Would you prefer EVERY on going character get killed off? Somebody has to make it to the end don't they?

Well sure. But that doesn't mean that just because you didn't get killed along the way, you are the best swordman, does it?

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48 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

6) killed WW at Hardhome, this probably made him so famous in the North for the people, not many, who believe in the WW. First person to actually kill a WW, let's be real, no one believed Samwell.

When reading this thread I thought to myself, how good are the WW at fighting? I have to think since there is not that much dragon glass or if there is any Valeryn steel north of the wall they are not used to fighting one on one because most steel breaks with contact with their weapons. I would say that Jon is one of the better swordsman in Westeros but not quite the best.

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14 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Too many people rank Knights up as great swordsman. Look at how Bronn embarrassed the one he faced. Being a knight means you are trained to fight. Being a combat tested killer is something different. Jon learned a lot in the fight at Crasters keep and again against the Thenn, who was also a battle tested killer, who is larger and stronger.

So would Jon win some tourney and have pretty moves, no. Would I want Jon on my side in a battle, yep.

 

ETA - and yes this is show only

For the most part the only people who are trained swordsmen are knights and the nobility.  Most commoners, at least historically and seems in this world, aren't trained to use a sword, and may never pick on up.  Bronn is very unique in Westeros where there aren't the number of tested sellswords like in Essos.  

So yes I agree there are the battle tested/hardened guys like Bronn out there to take into account and other random guys who have been trained like Jory, for the most part your best swordsmen are going to be either knights (not tourney knights but battle tested ones) or lords/nobility.  Those are the people who A) Can afford a quality sword in the first place, and B Have someone to train them. 

Absolutely agree there are a bunch of tourney knights who would probably get their butts handed to them in a real battle, and commoners/not as trained buys who shine in that situation.  

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24 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Too many people rank Knights up as great swordsman. Look at how Bronn embarrassed the one he faced. Being a knight means you are trained to fight. Being a combat tested killer is something different. Jon learned a lot in the fight at Crasters keep and again against the Thenn, who was also a battle tested killer, who is larger and stronger.

So would Jon win some tourney and have pretty moves, no. Would I want Jon on my side in a battle, yep.

 

ETA - and yes this is show only

On a side note, I think the show made a huge mistake not allowed a hundred or so Thenns survive and go through the wall. Would have loved to have seen the Thenns stack up against Northerners since the Thenns are largely considered the best swordsmen/fighters beyond the wall (because of bronze armor and weapons and size)

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54 minutes ago, El Diego said:

If we are going by the show he's the best in the North. Who could compete with him? In terms of the whole realm it goes:

1. Brienne

2. Hound

3. Bronn

4. Jon

Of course this is just my opinion based on what we've seen in the show. In the books Brienne would be below the Hound and Bronn but still above Jon. Plus we have Loras and Garlan Tyrell, Areo Hotah (not a swordsman but as a fighter), Lyn Corbray, Yohn Royce, Victarion Greyjoy, etc. that I would put above Jon. He honestly never struck me as an exceptional fighter in the books. Good yes, certainly better than his Night's Watch contemporaries, but he hasn't shown anything to be put in the elite.

Undoubtedly in show canon he is top tier though.

Agree. In the show he's definitely presented as one of the better swordsman, esp after the Watchers on the Wall ep when he killed Thenn in single combat. He is always presented as doing really well against the masses which suggests some prowess. Against harder enemies he has some issues but seems to be getting progressively better. I guess we'll see what will happen when he meets up with other renowned swordspeople. 

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10 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Well sure. But that doesn't mean that just because you didn't get killed along the way, you are the best swordman, does it?

The best? No, not necessarily, but better than anyone he's faced.

This reminds me of an old joke... You and me are camping when a bear attacks. We start running, you're panicked but I'm not, so you ask 'Why aren't you scared, you can't out run a bear?".. to which I say "I don't have to out run a bear, I only have to out run you!"

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Quote

When reading this thread I thought to myself, how good are the WW at fighting?

This is a question I've asked myself before as well. I once made a list a little while ago about who I thought the best fighter would be based on the criteria of, if I had a trial by combat and could pick any person to be my champion without knowing the other fighter (styles make fights after all) who would I pick? It is imperfect, I know, but I ended up with Arthur Dayne on the top. Then I asked myself where I'd rank a WW and I put it at the top. I think I'd say the same be it book or show.

Now, the interesting thing about this fight is that in the show it appears that a single blow from Valyrian steel instantly dispatches a WW. So even if it is a better fighter (and they seem to have better than human movement though not quite superhuman), would you pick it versus a top Westerosi fighter with a VS sword if all they have to do is nick the WW? 

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36 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Too many people rank Knights up as great swordsman. Look at how Bronn embarrassed the one he faced. Being a knight means you are trained to fight. Being a combat tested killer is something different. Jon learned a lot in the fight at Crasters keep and again against the Thenn, who was also a battle tested killer, who is larger and stronger.

So would Jon win some tourney and have pretty moves, no. Would I want Jon on my side in a battle, yep.

What better example of this than Ned Stark himself?

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2 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

The best? No, not necessarily, but better than anyone he's faced.

This reminds me of an old joke... You and me are camping when a bear attacks. We start running, you're panicked but I'm not, so you ask 'Why aren't you scared, you can't out run a bear?".. to which I say "I don't have to out run a bear, I only have to out run you!"

I can agree about that. He lives because either he was better than other people he faced (which can be assumed for example about some soldiers he killed in the battle or wildlings in the battle of Castle Black) or he had immense luck (for example the White Walker in Hardhome or Qhorin, who let Jon win and had tied hands during the fight, the Bastardbowl can be counted as well because Jon could die anytime in the chaos and especially with the arrows flying all around and killing everyone except Jon).

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Yes, you see, it's called character developments. He has become a good fighter over the course of the books/show

Can he stand against the top dogs, probably not but he is supposedly getting there. 

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5 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I can agree about that. He lives because either he was better than other people he faced (which can be assumed for example about some soldiers he killed in the battle or wildlings in the battle of Castle Black) or he had immense luck (for example the White Walker in Hardhome or Qhorin, who let Jon win and had tied hands during the fight, the Bastardbowl can be counted as well because Jon could die anytime in the chaos and especially with the arrows flying all around and killing everyone except Jon).

Luck plays a huge part for everybody not just Jon. How many excellent swordsman died due to wildfire at Blackwater? How about the ones that got struck by random arrows? Ramsay rained arrows down on everybody at the BoB, great swordsman, knights, and common men with sharpened sticks, did only the bad fighters die? Is Podrick Payne a better fighter than that Kingsguardsman he killed from behind that attacked Tyrion at Blackwater? Of course not, yet Pod lives, and the knight is dead. Luck is paramount in these battles.

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47 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Would you prefer EVERY on going character get killed off? Somebody has to make it to the end don't they?

You have a point but they really don't need to put them into mortal danger every episode. Or 20 times just the last battle. I rolled my eyes hard seeing Jon 'cheating' death for 10 times in a row. In battles like these, if general (Jon) was involved, he'd be surrounded by 20 strongest allies (at least) and not by 20 enemies, no one can survive that. That's Godlike/invincible.

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5 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Luck plays a huge part for everybody not just Jon. How many excellent swordsman died due to wildfire at Blackwater? How about the ones that got struck by random arrows? Ramsay rained arrows down on everybody at the BoB, great swordsman, knights, and common men with sharpened sticks, did only the bad fighters die? Is Podrick Payne a better fighter than that Kingsguardsman he killed from behind that attacked Tyrion at Blackwater? Of course not, yet Pod lives, and the knight is dead. Luck is paramount in these battles.

Exactly. That's practically my point. He has had great luck - just as some other characters like Podrick, as you mentioned - thanks to which he survived some really bad situations but that does not necessary make him the best swordman (or Top5 or whatever). It'd say it's a bit hard to judge how good Jon is as a swordman because he has yet to fight someone who is considered a great swordman. I'd say that the closest he was to this was Qhorin but that obviously wasn't a fair fight. So let's wait for Bronn to make a trip with Jaime North and then we'll see. :) 

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13 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

You have a point but they really don't need to put them into mortal danger every episode. Or 20 times just the last battle. I rolled my eyes hard seeing Jon 'cheating' death for 10 times in a row. In battles like these, if general (Jon) was involved, he'd be surrounded by 20 strongest allies (at least) and not by 20 enemies, no one can survive that. That's Godlike/invincible.

But that's normal. You call it godlike/luck but somehow when a man runs and survive through Omaha beach it's not. Yet, one was based on reality and the other isn't 

 

if if you actually compare Jon to some figures in ww2 or ww1, he is not that lucky. The website cracked does post some of these names with humor injected in it. 

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2 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

You have a point but they really don't need to put them into mortal danger every episode. Or 20 times just the last battle. I rolled my eyes hard seeing Jon 'cheating' death for 10 times in a row. In battles like these, if general (Jon) was involved, he'd be surrounded by 20 strongest allies (at least) and not by 20 enemies, no one can survive that. That's Godlike/invincible.

I was actually asking myself if they are implying some Lord of Light divine intervention. When the arrows rained down all around Jon and he emerged completely unharmed, that was just ridiculous.

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Fine, only this is his 3rd 'Omaha beach' (Hardhome, The Wall, BoB).

Also being solo targeted and charged by a whole regiment of cavalry who moves into your melee range and blind fire are a different thing. He really should've have 'elite' people surrounding him, protecting him in battle and unlike on Omaha beach (where people took cover) he was a sitting duck there, thus godlike/invincible.

You really can't compare those two.

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