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Alfonso Sánchez

Is Jon Snow finally among the best swordmen?As

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3 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Fine, only this is his 3rd 'Omaha beach' (Hardhome, The Wall, BoB).

Also being solo targeted and charged by a whole regiment of cavalry who moves into your melee range and blind fire are a different thing. He really should've have 'elite' people surrounding him, protecting him in battle and unlike on Omaha beach (where people took cover) he was a sitting duck there, thus godlike/invincible.

You really can't compare those two.

Wait! There was nothing "out of line"at hardhome or the walls.

second of all, omaha was not the worst, there are soldiers who were deployed in Omaha and continued till Germany in multiple battles. If you consider Jon survive one battle as too much luck, then those soldiers were lucky on another level. He didn't get hit by a volley... There are some men who mortars right next to them constantly.. 

All I'm saying is, Jon was lucky..very lucky but let's not call it unrealistic when actual soldiers in various wars were just as lucky, if not, more lucky

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13 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

I was actually asking myself if they are implying some Lord of Light divine intervention. When the arrows rained down all around Jon and he emerged completely unharmed, that was just ridiculous.

That's how I made it make sense to me. I was thinking of his convo with Mel about why he was brought back after the battle.

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5 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

Wait

Wait! There was nothing "out of line"at hardhome or the walls.

second of all, omaha was not the worst, there are soldiers who were deployed in Omaha and continued till Germany in multiple battles. If you consider Jon survive one battle as too much luck, then those soldiers were lucky on another level. He didn't get hit by a volley... There are some men who mortars right next to them constantly.. 

All I'm saying is, Jon was lucky..very lucky but let's not call it unrealistic when actual soldiers in various wars were just as lucky, if not, more lucky

 

I wonder if anyone of those 'heroes' just stood there at the center of the battlefield with a big target on their backs, oblivious of what is going on? Or charged solo at enemy lines? Or did they cover? Heroes don't get to live for long on this world, that's up for comics. My opinion.

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2 hours ago, El Diego said:

If we are going by the show he's the best in the North. Who could compete with him? In terms of the whole realm it goes:

1. Brienne

2. Hound

3. Bronn

4. Jon

Of course this is just my opinion based on what we've seen in the show. In the books Brienne would be below the Hound and Bronn but still above Jon. Plus we have Loras and Garlan Tyrell, Areo Hotah (not a swordsman but as a fighter), Lyn Corbray, Yohn Royce, Victarion Greyjoy, etc. that I would put above Jon. He honestly never struck me as an exceptional fighter in the books. Good yes, certainly better than his Night's Watch contemporaries, but he hasn't shown anything to be put in the elite.

Undoubtedly in show canon he is top tier though.

 

I would put Show Jon above Bronn and below ShowBeric

Bronn is so overrated.

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I wouldn't put Brienne beyond the Hound. Brienne couldn't even win against Jaime who was starved and chained, while Jaime was comparing himself if he could win against the likes of Clegane brothers and Barriston. That Brienne beat the Hound was luck, and Loras is a tourney knight who would have been butchered by Gregor easily had it not been for Sandor's intervention. Sandor was good enough to win against Beric even with his fear of fire.

I am sure that Arthur Dayne was the best swordman in the entire realm, and Jaime before the maim was the finest, and younger Barriston as good as Jaime (Barriston was struggling against a pitfighter who didn't wear armor in the book and died a lame death in the show). I don't think Jon would ever match them, but in the book Jon has berserk mode.

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11 minutes ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

I wouldn't put Brienne beyond the Hound. Brienne couldn't even win against Jaime who was starved and chained, while Jaime was comparing himself if he could win against the likes of Clegane brothers and Barriston. That Brienne beat the Hound was luck,

I don't think it was luck per se but rather Sander was half starved while traveling with Arya for weeks with nearly no food. The show made a point of saying this at some point as I recall. Further: Briene had high quality Lannister armor -- and there's that sword as well. Did Clegane even have armor?

A healthy Sander Clegane would dispatch Briene fairly easily I would guess.

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The Starks are Westeros royalty, and talked about by the smallfolk as we might talk about Will and Harry. It's not hard to see how a legend could develop around a very young Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who is also a (bastard) Stark.

In terms of sheer ability, I think BOTB did a heckuva job in showing he is indeed elite. The heroic warriors are often described as going though XX amount of men in battle -- and that's what Jon did. 

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Interesting topic. So who wins these one on ones all things even. No terrain or hunger or whatever disadvantages or advantages.   Jon vs Brienne?  Jon vs Hound?  Jon vs Mountain?  Jon vs Bronn?  Jon vs Daario?  Jon vs Tormund?  Jon vs Grey Worm?  All of these characters are in their primes. I think Jon beats them all but the Hound and the Mountain. 

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1 hour ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

I wouldn't put Brienne beyond the Hound. Brienne couldn't even win against Jaime who was starved and chained, while Jaime was comparing himself if he could win against the likes of Clegane brothers and Barriston. That Brienne beat the Hound was luck, and Loras is a tourney knight who would have been butchered by Gregor easily had it not been for Sandor's intervention. Sandor was good enough to win against Beric even with his fear of fire.

As long as folks are beating up Jon about 'plot armour' let's be fair and do the same with Brienne. The Hound was beating her soundly when Brienne suddenly got a second wind and made a miraculous comeback. That simply doesn't happen in reality against a foe as formidable as the Hound. 99 times out of 100, Brienne dies. So if we're supposed to take points away from Jon for being a super duper arrow dodger, points must also be taken from Brienne for writer intervention.

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When it comes to Brienne, Jon and anyone wielding Valyrian steel in battle, the weight/reach/balance of their sword is a huge factor. It wouldn´t be surprising if Jon is not that great a swordsman as it might look like.

But he is very skilled. That´s been repeatedly stated, the Wildlings would never follow a weak warrior. And the more he survives, regardless if it´s through dumb luck like every soldier that´s ever lived through many battles, the better he gets simply because he´s seen and experienced more things. That´s how it works.

 

People complaining about an apparent divine intervention "moving the arrows a little to the side as not to hit Jon" or something have to remember he was already gutted like a fish and the Lord of Light did nothing. He didn´t send someone to pee outside and spot the people stabbing the Lord commander, he didn´t make Jon trip and not be able to go outside to be butchered, he certainly didn´t move those swrods away from his belly.

Jon might be back to life because of the Lord of Light´s intervention. Or he could be back to life because Melissandre burned Shireen alive. We cannot be certain.

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You can call it luck or whatever you wish. I don't believe in luck or anything like that. Through this battle, we are seeing Jon constantly making decisions. That is a high priority when it comes to survival situations. Even when the arrows were coming down on him, he make a split second choice to duck. Had he stood there, he would have taken an arrow. If he moved any direction, he would have taken an arrow. It all comes down to the choice to either act or not and jon was always acting. 

 

 

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Are you kidding me? Drunk Karl Tanner toyed with Jon like he was nothing. I don't remember any main character that's supposed to be good with sword that's got stomped this bad in the show. Fookin Legend of Gin Alley had many oppurtunities to kill him while he was blabbering throughout the whole fight. He was so certain that he was really making fun of Jon.

I know most of the members here are very romantic and they think things are what they see from those rose-tinted glasses and they mix what should happen with what they want to happen but you can be a bit realistic.

I haven't read the books but I've seen George RR Martin's comment that if they're given equal weaponry Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne match is a toss-up and they're the best fighters ever.

In the show it's been stated by Ned (and Ned's father through him), Jorah Mormont, Jaimie etc. Barristan is the best fighter ever. Without any armor at the age of 65-70 Barristan killed if I counted right 13 men when he was 14vs1 in a blind alley.

We also saw Arthur Dayne 4vs1 against a 4 skiiled fighter and one of them was Ned Stark. He cut through them with ease.

This is what te best swordsmen look like. Jon is a capable fighter and that's all. Those sayings about Jon's greatness at combat is probably related to the legend of his coming from dead. Someone from Castle Black could inform the people in Mole's Town about what happened or through a raven. Then through word of mouth, very exaggerated stories could start to exist.

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Don't know how he ranks say, technically speaking.  But his name has grown surely to a high level with the accomplishments to his credit.

And just the mere fact that he's still alive.  

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I have always thought that stories about Southern Knights being the best fighters are a bit exaggerated, they get very good PR because they take part in Tournaments. But have you ever seen Jaime or for example Barristan Selmy think about how good someone like Qhorin Halfhand might be? No, we don't see that, because Qhorin Halfhand will never take part in a tournament. He might have been known in the North, but no one cares in the South. 

But someone like Qhorin Halfhand and even other rangers within the Nights Watch were constantly facing life and death battles, they had to be good in order to survive. Jaime is obviously one the best, but unlike Qhorin Halfhand he hasn't yet mastered fighting with his  left hand. Mance Rayder had to fight his way to the top beyond the Wall. Greatjon Umber was also known as a good swordsman within the North, but he will never take part in a Southern tournament.

Generally in my opinion I think Southern swordsmen are a bit overrated and Northern swordsmen are a bit underrated, espcially within the context of the books. In the books I think Jon might be on his way to become a good swordsman, not Arthur Dayne like or anything like that, but very good. He is obviously younger in the books.

 

Jon is older in the show, so he would naturally be better than in the books, but a lot of the exceptional swordsmen are already dead at this stage so Jon is likely one of the top swordsmen left. 

But more than anything else I think the real issue is that Kit Harington is the best swordsman on the show. You can see that a lot of these fight scenes within the battle was shot in one fluid take. Compare that for example to the fight between the Hound and Brienne. That fight scene was much more choppier, it had a lot more cuts. It does make more sense to use of an actor's natural abilities especially if he is going to be in a lot of fighting scenes, rather than to shoot more fighting scenes in Dorne. 

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5 minutes ago, Boudica said:

But more than anything else I think the real issue is that Kit Harington is the best swordsman on the show. You can see that a lot of these fight scenes within the battle was shot in one fluid take. Compare that for example to the fight between the Hound and Brienne. That fight scene was much more choppier, it has a lot more cuts. It does make more sense to use of an actor's natural abilities especially if he is going to be in a lot of fighting scenes, rather than to shoot more fighting scenes in Dorne. 

I think this is part of it, as well. He's vastly improved from the start of the series and it shows.

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11 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

You're just naming names. The Tyrells are just tourney knights, has either ever had a real fight against anyone that matters on a battlefield? Royce is simply too old. Greyjoy? Again, who has he fought? Hotah? Big guy, big axe, went down easy. Lyn Cobray.. seriously? Even Brienne got lucky against the Hound and woulda got her butt kicked by a starved and emaciated Jaime if his hands weren't tied. The Magnar of Thenn was way tougher than Brienne and Jon beat him. Is Jon the best? Who's to say. That title basically goes to the last man standing, and Jon's still standing, so he's gotta be pretty damn good.

You haven't read the books apparently.  Garlan regularly trains against 3 or more men, and absolutely wrecks fighting on the blackwater.  His own brother, Loras, who slays other knights good enough to be Renly's Kingsguard, is a great tourney night (including being enough to best Brienne before she lunges at him).  We don't see much of the Royces, but they have an in universe reputation for being great.  Vicatrion once again has a huge in universe reputation as a badass individual fighter.  Hotah hasn't gone down in the books, and has killed one of the proper Kingsguard knights in Ser Aerys. Lyn Corbray once again has the huge in universe reputation, and nearly brains a guy simply sparring at the gates of the moon.  Brienne doesn't fight the Hound (although in the show fight, I don't see how she got lucky?), but does beat Jaime (albeit atrophied and malnourished), Ser Loras, Biter without armor IIRC, and 3 trained killers at once. The Magnar of Thenn has to be halfway decent, but we just simply have no way of knowing, since he is killed by either an arrow or the firetrap on the Stairs (can't remember).

When someone specifically mentions the books for that half of their post, show fights shouldn't be used as part of the argument.  

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41 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

When someone specifically mentions the books for that half of their post, show fights shouldn't be used as part of the argument.

Read the OP, it's about the show, perhaps book fights shouldn't be used as part of the argument.

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