Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Alfonso Sánchez

Is Jon Snow finally among the best swordmen?As

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

Read the OP, it's about the show, perhaps book fights shouldn't be used as part of the argument.

Literally the only time someone has used book and show fights interchangeably has been this post:

13 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

You're just naming names. The Tyrells are just tourney knights, has either ever had a real fight against anyone that matters on a battlefield? Royce is simply too old. Greyjoy? Again, who has he fought? Hotah? Big guy, big axe, went down easy. Lyn Cobray.. seriously? Even Brienne got lucky against the Hound and woulda got her butt kicked by a starved and emaciated Jaime if his hands weren't tied. The Magnar of Thenn was way tougher than Brienne and Jon beat him. Is Jon the best? Who's to say. That title basically goes to the last man standing, and Jon's still standing, so he's gotta be pretty damn good.

Which is by you, so I'm not sure what the issue is? Everyone is clearly able to and clearly is delineating the books from the show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How good of a fighter is, it is decided by how long they survive in battle. So far he is still alive despite running around like an idiot or so... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's really difficult to say how good he is compared to other fighter, but it's not difficult to understand why people in The North talking about him like best fighter that ever lived. If he survive Long Night people will talk about him like they talk about Last Hero in North, AA in Essos ECT. For me he look like he is greatest alive, because Kit is best swordsman in the show. For comparison, look fight between Jamie and Ned in season 1. This fight should look like fight between Ned and Arthur Dayne, but Sean Bean is better swordsman then Nicolaj and on screen it seems like Ned is better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the books, it seems VERY clear to me that Jaime Lannister was the baddest of 

the bad when he had two hands.  In addition to incredible prowess (if I recall correctly,

jaime was the youngest member of the Kingsguard EVER), Jaime is very physically powerful (I

believe there's a passage in the books stating Jaime is the fourth strongest man in Westeros, behind only the Clegane

brothers and Hodor).

However, Jaime no longer has his best hand, granted.

In any event, I highly doubt Jon Snow could beat Sandor, or Gregor, or probably even Brienne.  Jon does not

seem to have much size or strength, in the books or show.

Finally,when it comes to pure skill, has anyone mentioned...Syrio Forel?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the books, no, he's not. He's gifted for a 16 year-old, but he's no Loras Tyrell or Jaime Lannister. He even gets destroyed one-on-one by Mance Rayder.

In the show though, I'd put The Hound, Brienne, Bronn, Loras, Daario, and Jorah as better swordsmen who are still living. The Mountain would probably kill Jon to, but not due to his swordsmanship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the books, and just from watching the show alone, yes hes one of the top swordsman there is. He kicked ass north of the wall, at the wall and south of the wall. Who else can claim that? He killed undead, whites, wildlings, Thenns, mutineers, and men south of the wall. Who else can claim that? I care about what i have seen thus far and right now he has proven to be the best or one of the best. 

Shit he even died and came back to life to kick some more ass. Who else can claim that? Well, wait.....

Even ramsey was scared to hop his ass off that horse to fade him. But he nad no problem whipping out two knives to fight the iron men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought it was a very odd thing for Ramsay to say. Why would Jon have any kind of reputation in the North? Nothing he did at Castle Black would be known outside the Night's Watch, unless there are some deserters we don't know about. Does the rest of the North even know about Mance's attack on the Wall? Do they know about Hardhome? Do they know about ANYTHING going on with the Night's Watch? It doesn't seem like they would know, or even care. The only way is if some of Stannis' army who deserted him went to some brothels or taverns and told some people "Oh, yeah, that kid Jon, the Lord Commander, I saw him doing some practice fights in the courtyard at Castle Black, he's got some skills, I guess."

So yeah, no idea who could have been saying things about Jon, unless Maester Aemon was sending out ravens full of nothing but JON HYPE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it really hard to think of Jon Snow as one of the best swordsmen in Westeros when he needed help to defeat the random leader of the mutineers at Craster's Keep.

edit: Karl Tanner, that's the mutineer's name. Thanks goomba.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He's very over rated in the show

He might be able to crack top 10 currently living, but not best top 5 currently living.

Qhorin Halfhand let him beat him. Otherwise Jon woulda lost.

Karl Tanner woulda beat him.

His only real wins are Thenn and Ramsey 0_o

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, goomba said:

He's very over rated in the show

He might be able to crack top 10 currently living, but not best top 5 currently living.

Qhorin Halfhand let him beat him. Otherwise Jon woulda lost.

Karl Tanner woulda beat him.

His only real wins are Thenn and Ramsey 0_o

 

 

And he didn't even use his sword on Ramsay, so how could anyone rate him as a swordsman based on that? Maybe "Best Puncher" in the North is a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎22‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 6:46 PM, tjmarsh said:

By my count, Jon killed 19(counting Ramsey). I know tons of people want to bitch about the battle but I thought it was awesome. I don't tune in to watch hero's fail, I want the hero's to fucking slay it in battle. So yes, Show Jon is right up there with the very best in the show.

Nah..

100 want to bitch.

4,999,900 though it was awesome.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all that plot armor, how could he not be? However, I think that Brienne - Queen of Convenience, GPS of Westeros, Slayer of Good Dialogue, the Wight's Intellect, could give him a run for his money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Daske said:

Nah..

100 want to bitch.

4,999,900 though it was awesome.

 

Pretty much.  The naysayers are generally way more vocal than the people who liked it.  And you are never going to make people happy.  They did it the way they did, lots of action, arrows, horses, swords flying everywhere, and it was intense and awesome to watch but people complain it isn't realistic that he survives.  They make it realistic he survives and people will be upset because it was a boring scene where he wasn't in any real danger.......

Try to make it as realistic/plausible as possible, but it is TV it has to be entertaining to watch and give some sense of drama and suspense.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, jrod said:

Pretty much.  The naysayers are generally way more vocal than the people who liked it.  And you are never going to make people happy.  They did it the way they did, lots of action, arrows, horses, swords flying everywhere, and it was intense and awesome to watch but people complain it isn't realistic that he survives.  They make it realistic he survives and people will be upset because it was a boring scene where he wasn't in any real danger.......

Try to make it as realistic/plausible as possible, but it is TV it has to be entertaining to watch and give some sense of drama and suspense.  

Let's not forget if you make it linear story, it's predictable. You change the color of someone's hair and suddenly that character is "ruined"

I'm not kidding. Lyanna was introduced with slightly brownish hair and some people were complaining.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Cz-99 said:

With all that plot armor, how could he not be? However, I think that Brienne - Queen of Convenience, GPS of Westeros, Slayer of Good Dialogue, the Wight's Intellect, could give him a run for his money.

you mean Brienne - Conqueror of Hounds, Fetcher of Uncles, She who finally did her job, yes you are right. I think she could give him a run for his money :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, goomba said:

He's very over rated in the show

He might be able to crack top 10 currently living, but not best top 5 currently living.

Qhorin Halfhand let him beat him. Otherwise Jon woulda lost.

Karl Tanner woulda beat him.

His only real wins are Thenn and Ramsey 0_o

 

 

All of those fights were early in Jon's fighting career. With the experience he's learned from those fights he's gotten better.  The Fookin Legend taught him "fuck honor" when you're fighting for your life. He remembered that in his very next major encounter with Magnar.  Then he went toe to toe with a fucking White Walker. Got his ass handed to him like I'm sure most would but never backed down or ran like most would...  In my eyes, Jon's exploits are second only to the Hound. Who wrecks multiple fools per fight. And probably the Mountain just on sheer size and strength.  They've made Brienne Unstoppable (talk about plot armor...) but I think Jon would beat her because of his quickness. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

All of those fights were early in Jon's fighting career. With the experience he's learned from those fights he's gotten better.  The Fookin Legend taught him "fuck honor" when you're fighting for your life. He remembered that in his very next major encounter with Magnar.  Then he went toe to toe with a fucking White Walker. Got his ass handed to him like I'm sure most would but never backed down or ran like most would...  In my eyes, Jon's exploits are second only to the Hound. Who wrecks multiple fools per fight. And probably the Mountain just on sheer size and strength.  They've made Brienne Unstoppable (talk about plot armor...) but I think Jon would beat her because of his quickness. 

Agreed, the current Jon has invaluable experience that will someday make him a great swordsman and not just a good one.

I'm just arguing that nothing he's done really warrants him as a good or known swordsman yet imo :D 

I would also add the exploits of Jorah Mormont up there with Sandor and Jon, he did just recently championed the fighting pits in Meereen afterall, defeating a summer islander, a Braavosi water dancer and a Meeraneese champion :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, goomba said:

Agreed, the current Jon has invaluable experience that will someday make him a great swordsman and not just a good one.

I'm just arguing that nothing he's done really warrants him as a good or known swordsman yet imo :D 

I would also add the exploits of Jorah Mormont up there with Sandor and Jon, he did just recently championed the fighting pits in Meereen afterall, defeating a summer islander, a Braavosi water dancer and a Meeraneese champion :D 

Yeah. Jorah has some quality kills. Also the Dothraki in season 1 and the the throw down in Yunkai (I think) with Grey Worm & Daario. Even battled with some stone men...  They have just made his age show recently. Could be the greyscale. But his exploits in the show are up there with Sandor, Jon, and Brienne. Nobody else has kicked as much ass as those 4.  And I think Jon's reputation has grown because his exploits haven't been one on one encounters but in full scale battles where's he's always leading from the front and coming out alive. The fact that he survived Battle of Castle Black (killed Magnar and many others), Crasters Raid (killed The Fookin Legend and many others), Hardhome (killed a Walker and many others), and now Winterfell (beat Ramsey not really a fight but killed many others). Jon's body count may be the highest on the show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The original question up above is whether Jon is "among the best swordsmen."

I suppose it's possible, depending on what is meant by "among the best."

Top 5 that we know of, who are currently active and in good health?  Maybe.

Top 10 that we know of who are currently active and in good health?  Sure.

But is he THE best in Westeros right now?  Very unlikely, in my opinion.

Also, we need to consider what is meant by "swordsmen."  Are we talking "fighting ability

in one on one combat with a sword?"  If so, you've GOT to keep Bronn in mind, he knows

how to fight dirty, and has NO qualms about doing it.

Also, what sword(s)?  Rapiers?  Syrio Forel would shred Jon.  Full armor and broadswords?  Jon

wouldn't last 30 seconds against Gregor, Sandor, Brienne, Jorah Mormont, Jaime, or probably numerous others

in a fight like that..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Yeah. Jorah has some quality kills. Also the Dothraki in season 1 and the the throw down in Yunkai (I think) with Grey Worm & Daario. Even battled with some stone men...  They have just made his age show recently. Could be the greyscale. But his exploits in the show are up there with Sandor, Jon, and Brienne. Nobody else has kicked as much ass as those 4.  And I think Jon's reputation has grown because his exploits haven't been one on one encounters but in full scale battles where's he's always leading from the front and coming out alive. The fact that he survived Battle of Castle Black (killed Magnar and many others), Crasters Raid (killed The Fookin Legend and many others), Hardhome (killed a Walker and many others), and now Winterfell (beat Ramsey not really a fight but killed many others). Jon's body count may be the highest on the show. 

Think there is a very important thing you just mentioned, "Leading from the front and coming out alive".  I think that would have a lot to do with his reputation.  In the books I believe, show doesn't really talk about it, Northern houses especially give some goods and trade with the Night's Watch (at least I think I remember reading that somewhere).  So if that is the case people would begin to hear stories about how Jon Snow led this attack, or this defense, and he is still alive.  Even if he isn't actually a great fighter, the reputation would start being built since he is still alive after those fights where he wasn't hiding on the sides, he has to be great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...