Not Confirmed

[ice_iridium]

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

So Ned is a Baelish? And Catlyn? ... Because they played the house baelish theme song in the Godswoods... Ist episode Ist season... Ned and Cat were talking about Arryn's death... 

You miss my point : the soundtrack played in any given scene is not a subliminal plot hint.
They 've just picked the best soundtrack in order to enhance the dramatic narrative and the emotional impact of the scene in question, as for the greyjoy theme in the execution scenes (Slynt & Karstark).

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

In the books, the sword matters to a lot of people, including Ned, Jon, and Bran.

Of course it would... As in the show so many people are dying to have a valyrian steel sword...

 

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

So far, all the show has done to tell us the sword matters has been done with conspicuous placement and camera angles. And give the name Sword of the Morning. But they took the time to do at least that. Until we get the next season or book, we don't know where they are going with this. But they took time on it.

You're right ... Let's wait, shall we? 

 

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Bran and Bloodraven's narration was not about the valor of the kingsguard dying for their sworn duty or any of the other debates that readers have had for years on the forums.

That narration was all about the fight between Arthur and Ned's not being at all what Bran has heard. And Bran's horror and confusion about why he never knew that particular truth. Echoing Ned's convo with Bran in the books about Arthur and his sword and Ned's sadness over Arthur's death.

GRRM is the biggest troller ever... You know that, don't you? Have you thought that, the sadness over Arthur's death was just a distraction? If Jon was Arthur's, that would be one proof to that. So... They set up a false truth to hide the true truth...<sorry for my english... not a native speaker>  We should sue them...

 

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

According to Martin and the World Book, yes. Only a worthy Dayne can wield Dawn. If there's no worthy Dayne, the sword waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning "shall arise" (to use Martin's phrasing). So, it requires both blood and "worthiness."  

So maybe in this case it's just Worthiness... They showed that to us by naming Jon 'Snow' the KiTN... While saying "We know no king but the king in the north whose name is 'Stark' " I don't mean that the KiTN should always be a Stark...But that the last king they had ever known was a Stark... But Jon has shown to them that they could trust him and rely on him...

So I guess Jon has obtained many things that weren't really supposed to be given to him, just because he deserved it... Just like Longclaw... So following your thoughts, Jon can in the end receive Dawn because he deserves it... Who knows? Maybe GRRM didn't tell the whole  truth about the sword... Just as he didn't tell the whole truth about Jon's parents... Perhaps many things are yet to be dicovered... Maybe Samwell Tarly will learn something about Dawn... 

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Absolutely. As the title of the thread says--"not confirmed." I think it very likely that Arthur is Jon's father, but there's no way the show has confirmed that. I also think it very likely that Rhaegar could be Jon's father--but the show hasn't confirmed that either.

The difference is amazing...

The show hasn't confirmed it... 

But you just did. "Is" and "Could"

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

That's very possible. It's just that of all the clues they could have shown Bran--the crowning, a shot of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, Rhaegar playing his harp for her, the prophecy stuff--they chose none of that. They chose Arthur's death. Echoing Bran learning about Ned's sadness over Arthur in the books and Bran later wishing he'd asked why Ned was sad. 

Even if they had chosen the crowning or a shot of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna would would have said that it doesn't prove anything... You would have said that maybe he run away with her but she had an intercourse with Arthur Dayne... You would have said lots of sort of things... I don't see the point... I will again point out that Arthur's death is all about big lies and hidden truth... Just as Jon's parentage... Just as Jon Arryn's death... Just as Robert's death... Unless you live it, you know nothing AT ALL... So it can either mean that the most known theory is the seven (continents) " R+L=J " is a lie and that many people will be as surprised as Bran is or it can also mean that Arthur's shippers are being trolled... (the story that is believed 'TRUTH' is not really the truth).

But I have to say that I think they didn't chose Arthur's death... They chose the TOJ because it can introduce us to many storylines... In one scene we get to know Howland Reed, Young Ned, Arthur Dayne (for his important sword), Lyanna and then the baby... And also when Bran called his father (he didn't change the past... to foreshadow Hodor because I wasn't surprised about The Hodor Story after bran's "FATHER!") The crowning? Not imporant, really... All the realm knows about that story (from Dorne to Casterly Rock)... It wasn't hidden... BUT The TOJ was a mystery to many people... I don't doubt it, it was the best choice... So perhaps they will show us the King's Tournament in the next season... And we will get to know the father... 

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I don't think it "proves" Arthur is Jon's father. But it strongly suggests that Arthur is very important to Ned. And so far, we don't know why in the show or in the books--why does this moment matter so much?

I think he was very important to many people... They admired him... Just like many admired Barristan Selmy... even Arya is one of them...

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, far as the books and show have shown us, Valyrian steel swords can be sold or stolen or given to non-family members.

Dawn only goes to a worthy Dayne. Has done for thousands of years. It's completely unique in-world.

Anything is possible as it wasn't confirmed at 100%...

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Lord Lyman said:

We are not deniers. We are non-confirmers. And you are wrong about the showrunners or GRRM. Their word is the authority. What they say goes and will be accepted.

You are right... Don't worry, You are not deniers... It's not really confirmed... I think it 60% Rhaegar and 20% Arthur... There is a 20% that is floating in the air...  But don't waste your time with people who are 100 % sure... I'M not... But I don't see HOW jon will be Arthur's... I mean the fact that Rhaegar left his wife with Lyanna doesn't prove that Jon is his? So he did all that stuff for Arthur's baby? He risked his life for that?? I want to believe that story but it just so craazyyy! He said Lyanna was the most beautiful girl in all westoros (he betrayed his wife and literally put his whole family to death) just to give Lyanna to Arthur?? As I said, If Jon is Arthur's, That would be the BIGGEST troll the whole world will EVER know!! Crazy af!! It's crazy!! come on!!!!! 

[Sly Wren]

6 hours ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

I would like to accept that. But I just want to remind that, when Jon was about to hang Ser Alliser, Olly and the two other traitors, the Targaryen’s soundtrack was played… Someone had already mentioned that before…  SO if Jon is Arthur’s child, it will be the BIGGEST TROLL the planet will EVER know…

If you re-read the previous comments, someone also mentioned that when Cat was with Ned in the Godswood, in the first episode, they played Littlefinger’s soundtrack… So they troll people, but not at 100%. The soundtrack doesn’t lie… The sword? It’s alright… I can give it to you… But why did they play that soundtrack? Olly is a Targ? Alliser is a Targ? Please, think about that…

I must confess I haven't checked out the soundtrack all the way through, so I have no idea how consistent they are with it.

But in two scenes over separate episodes, they clearly put the sword in focus almost dead center, drawing our eyes to it. Told the actors to place it thusly and the camera to focus accordingly.

But you have piqued my interest re: the soundtrack. When I get a chance, I'll need to rematch listening for the soundtrack. It would be really cool if they kept it strictly consistent all the way through.

5 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

Now, please, think about that : three ideas linked together in one logical statement.

"The Sword of the Morning, bearer of Dawn, will end the Long Night"

 

When I look back to Jon's arc story, this statement sounds perfectly right.

YUP!

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

So you all are ignoring ‘A song of Ice and Fire’… And you only care about ‘A Song of Ice and Sun(dawn)’? 

Not ignoring. Martin has said that "The Song of Ice and Fire" is what singers will call this time in Westerosi history when they sing about it. And he's said that the title has multiple meanings--could be the time when two threats descended upon Westeros at once: ice in the form of the White Walkers' second invasion and fire in the form of the Targaryen dragon second invasion.

Or other things. 

But as for the Long Night--both the books and the show have made it very clear that the threat of the White Walkers is not just the cold, it's the darkness that lasted a generation. That the White Walkers come "into that darkness."

Nan made that VERY clear in her story to Bran in season one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC7qh8gFbhQ

And the books call the defeat of the Others "The Battle for the Dawn." Not the battle for the warmth or for summer.

So, there's a well set-up need in both books and show to end the Long Night and bring back the day. And, well, dawn brings back the day by ending the night, no?

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

If they did, we wouldn't be here arguing about that... Or  would we? Because I've seen a thread about rather Margaery is dead or not... 

HA! Very true. Arguing is what we all do here. 

[ice_iridium]

39 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

 As I said, If Jon is Arthur's, That would be the BIGGEST troll the whole world will EVER know!! Crazy af!! It's crazy!! come on!!!!! 

We certainly don't deny that the clues leading to R+L=J are just a red herring planted by GRRM.
When you examine some plot devices used by GRRM or the showrunners, it doesn't sound crazy at all.
 

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

8 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I must confess I haven't checked out the soundtrack all the way through, so I have no idea how consistent they are with it.

But in two scenes over separate episodes, they clearly put the sword in focus almost dead center, drawing our eyes to it. Told the actors to place it thusly and the camera to focus accordingly.

But you have piqued my interest re: the soundtrack. When I get a chance, I'll need to rematch listening for the soundtrack. It would be really cool if they kept it strictly consistent all the way through.

YUP!

Not ignoring. Martin has said that "The Song of Ice and Fire" is what singers will call this time in Westerosi history when they sing about it. And he's said that the title has multiple meanings--could be the time when two threats descended upon Westeros at once: ice in the form of the White Walkers' second invasion and fire in the form of the Targaryen dragon second invasion.

Or other things. 

But as for the Long Night--both the books and the show have made it very clear that the threat of the White Walkers is not just the cold, it's the darkness that lasted a generation. That the White Walkers come "into that darkness."

Nan made that VERY clear in her story to Bran in season one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC7qh8gFbhQ

And the books call the defeat of the Others "The Battle for the Dawn." Not the battle for the warmth or for summer.

So, there's a well set-up need in both books and show to end the Long Night and bring back the day. And, well, dawn brings back the day by ending the night, no?

HA! Very true. Arguing is what we all do here. 

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And the books call the defeat of the Others "The Battle for the Dawn." Not the battle for the warmth or for summer.

If I believe what you have said, yes! The title can have multiple meanings...

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Of course it would... As in the show so many people are dying to have a valyrian steel sword...

True--but there are a number of known Valyrian blades. In the books, Dawn is completely unique.

And Arthur's death makes Ned inexplicably sad. Not the other guys he fights at the tower--only Arthur.

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

You're right ... Let's wait, shall we? 

Amen. 

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

GRRM is the biggest troller ever... You know that, don't you? Have you thought that, the sadness over Arthur's death was just a distraction? If Jon was Arthur's, that would be one proof to that. So... They set up a false truth to hide the true truth...<sorry for my english... not a native speaker>  We should sue them...

On the bolded--that could absolutely be the case.

I would only note that Rhaegar's role in all this has been more explicit in the books and the show. Arthur's role is the more subtle one. So, if he was trying to distract us, seems like Martin would make us focus on the more obvious.

That said, the above is NOT proof that this is what Martin is doing. In the books, he did something VERY similar with Jon Arryn's death. But that is no guarantee that he's doing the same with Jon's parentage.

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

So maybe in this case it's just Worthiness... They showed that to us by naming Jon 'Snow' the KiTN... While saying "We know no king but the king in the north whose name is 'Stark' " I don't mean that the KiTN should always be a Stark...But that the last king they had ever known was a Stark... But Jon has shown to them that they could trust him and rely on him.

So I guess Jon has obtained many things that weren't really supposed to be given to him, just because he deserved it... Just like Longclaw... So following your thoughts, Jon can in the end receive Dawn because he deserves it... Who knows? Maybe GRRM didn't tell the whole  truth about the sword... Just as he didn't tell the whole truth about Jon's parents... Perhaps many things are yet to be dicovered... Maybe Samwell Tarly will learn something about Dawn... 

1. This could absolutely be just about worthiness, since Jon got Longclaw given to him via worthiness. 

2. Also, if @Voice's theory about Ice being the sword the Starks used to stand in for Dawn, then Jon might be able to get Dawn by being a Stark. Have the sword go back to the family.

3. So far, the books have made it clear that only one sword is always passed via blood AND worthiness. Never sold. Never given for other reasons. Dawn. But, as you say, there's a LOT we don't know yet.

4. I REALLY hope Sam's going to learn something useful in Old Town. His story was . .  . flat this season. Let's hope it gets interesting.

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

The difference is amazing...

The show hasn't confirmed it... 

But you just did. "Is" and "Could"

HA! Touche. I should have phrased that much better. I said "likely is"--so, I meant "could"--but I should have been clearer. My apologies.

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

But I have to say that I think they didn't chose Arthur's death... They chose the TOJ because it can introduce us to many storylines... In one scene we get to know Howland Reed, Young Ned, Arthur Dayne (for his important sword), Lyanna and then the baby... And also when Bran called his father (he didn't change the past... to foreshadow Hodor because I wasn't surprised about The Hodor Story after bran's "FATHER!") The crowning? Not imporant, really... All the realm knows about that story (from Dorne to Casterly Rock)... It wasn't hidden... BUT The TOJ was a mystery to many people... I don't doubt it, it was the best choice... So perhaps they will show us the King's Tournament in the next season... And we will get to know the father... 

I agree that the tower scene is important. And that it sets us up for the reveal.

But he crowning vs. the fight: in the books and the show, the fight between Ned and Arthur IS famous: in the books, Cat knows about it, Cersei knows about it--it's well known, too. 

But why it upsets Ned and why he doesn't talk about how he and Howland killed Arthur isn't known. Bran makes a point of it in the books. The show made a much bigger point of it. So far, we don't know why that matters.

We need more data.

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

I think he was very important to many people... They admired him... Just like many admired Barristan Selmy... even Arya is one of them...

Very true--for a dead man, he shows up a LOT in the books. But in both books and show, we don't know why Ned is saddened by his death--not about the other guys he defeated. Ned isn't shown to mourn them or hide the truth about their deaths. Only Arthur. Something's up.

1 hour ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Anything is possible as it wasn't confirmed at 100%...

Amen.

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

The Battle for the Dawn

The long 'Nght'...

What is 'Dawn'? Dawn is what comes straight after the night, isn't it? So what name would be appropriate to show that the night was at its end if not 'Dawn?' 

Does the title 'the battle for the dawn' must at 100% be reffering to the sword?

[Voice]

On 6/26/2016 at 10:59 PM, Banner Without Brothers said:

R+L=J is not confirmed.

Now I'll probably get some hate for this and I have to start by saying that it is about 99% confirmed. But for anyone like me who hates the idea of Jon "Jesus" Targaryan being the magical Chosen royal blood Prophecy fulfiller I want to offer some hope, no matter how small. 

First big one the hair. We know how important hair is in the story. That baby is so blonde I think it would be more accurate to call it silver. If they wanted to 100% confirm Jon they would have had a baby with black hair. Of course babies hair can darken as they grow older but by the time that Ned brought him back to Winterfell? It's definitely a deliberate hole that will have to be filled in with either secret constant hair dye or magic, a glamour perhaps. https://youtu.be/dkvkT5D3fF4?t=280

No name. Why keep the name a secret? Is there really any need. Yes it was nicely done, the cut from the babies eyes into Jon's but we still could have had the name. Perhaps they could have had the "name is...." bit as the cut to Jon was happening. It's another deliberate hole 

Ah screw it, that's all I got if any other like minded optimists have anything else I'd love to hear it. But it's still enough for it to not be confirmed. It's just very, very, very likely that R+L=J.

Valar Morghulis R+L=D 

 

Take heart Banner without Brothers, nothing has been confirmed. Only the books are canon. The show is fan fiction.

While I favor A+L=J, I'm a big fan of of R+A=D. You should check out this theory.

 

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

2. Also, if @Voice's theory about Ice being the sword the Starks used to stand in for Dawn, then Jon might be able to get Dawn by being a Stark. Have the sword go back to the family.

 

Indeed!

 

But we are told quite explicitly that only sons of Starfall can claim Dawn, and GRRM has said that Dawn awaits the rise of the next Sword of the Morning. There has never been a Stark Sword of the Morning, the office and title belong to House Dayne alone, even if the sword came from Brandon the Builder.

Thus, Jon=SotM necessitates Jon being a son of Starfall. I favor Arthur+Lyanna, but Ned+Ashara would also suffice.

 

 

2 hours ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

The long 'Nght'...

What is 'Dawn'? Dawn is what comes straight after the night, isn't it? So what name would be appropriate to show that the night was at its end if not 'Dawn?' 

Does the title 'the battle for the dawn' must at 100% be reffering to the sword?

 

Exactly. While the "Battle for the Dawn" need not refer to the sword, does it not strike you as interesting that there is a sword called Dawn with which to Battle?

It should.

And it should interest you even more that the wielder of the blade is tied to both the end of Darkness, and the beginning of it.

Swordsmen of House Dayne can aspire to two titles:

1. The Sword of the Morning

2. The Sword of the Evening

 

We see few other houses tied to such circadian rhythms, but House Stark certainly is.

Winter fell and Star fall. Each is tied to fall of a season, imo:  The Long Night.

And Dawn is an Other's longsword. Just throwin that out there.

[Being Daenerys Targaryen]

12 hours ago, Voice said:

 

Take heart Banner without Brothers, nothing has been confirmed. Only the books are canon. The show is fan fiction.

While I favor A+L=J, I'm a big fan of of R+A=D. You should check out this theory.

 

 

Indeed!

 

But we are told quite explicitly that only sons of Starfall can claim Dawn, and GRRM has said that Dawn awaits the rise of the next Sword of the Morning. There has never been a Stark Sword of the Morning, the office and title belong to House Dayne alone, even if the sword came from Brandon the Builder.

Thus, Jon=SotM necessitates Jon being a son of Starfall. I favor Arthur+Lyanna, but Ned+Ashara would also suffice.

 

 

 

Exactly. While the "Battle for the Dawn" need not refer to the sword, does it not strike you as interesting that there is a sword called Dawn with which to Battle?

It should.

And it should interest you even more that the wielder of the blade is tied to both the end of Darkness, and the beginning of it.

Swordsmen of House Dayne can aspire to two titles:

1. The Sword of the Morning

2. The Sword of the Evening

 

We see few other houses tied to such circadian rhythms, but House Stark certainly is.

Winter fell and Star fall. Each is tied to fall of a season, imo:  The Long Night.

And Dawn is an Other's longsword. Just throwin that out there.

OK I say at "100%"... I didn't say that there is no link... just like the 'not confirmed'... it's not at 100% confirmed... So the word Dawn cannot only be refering to the sword... The sword took his name from that moment... The sword brought dawn that is the reason why it's called dawn...

PS: i didn't get anything... Sorry... I haven't read all the books... I'm reading the first one...

[Winterstars]

I wonder why all these deniers exist. Well, okay go on, you can argue until your death and I will only laugh. But still, I want to see what kind of face you'd make once you get the EXPLICIT confirmation. Even if you've had one from the infographic HBO released, but yeah, you're too clever to accept because Rhaegar as Jon's father is too obvious. You always want TWIST that you ignore all hints and facts and obvious things. Ah, now to think about it, I can't tell if you're too dumb or too clever to take all the hints to assume the child Lyanna bore was Arthur's.

Oh, but I'm dying to know how dangerous Jon Dayne could be that Robert wanted to kill him. And why Rhaegar wanted the best kingsguards to protect the Dayne child

Quote

Ned: I looked for you on the Trident.

Arthur: We weren't there. Your friend the usurper would lie beneath the ground if we had been.

Ned: The Mad King is dead. Rhaegar lies beneath the ground. Why weren't you there to protect your prince?

Arthur: OUR PRINCE wanted us here.

Ned: Where's my sister?

Arthur: I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.

Sorry for being OOT for this one. But is it just me or does anyone else also think that Arthur's line was kind of similiar to Benjen when he was leaving Bran?

"Wish you good fortune in the wars to come : wish you good fortune in the wars against the dead"

I wonder if Arthur knew about the propechy all the time, Rhaegar told him and he believed it. Because I find it hard why Arthur would help Rhaegar to kidnapped/run off with/whatever Lyanna while knowing Rhaegar still had legal wife. Rhaegar's action was not honorable, no matter if it was abduction or not. So to have two kingsguards helped him and Lyanna, it must be because of strong reason.

And regarding camera focusing on Dawn in the bed of blood, I think the sword will play a role for the upcoming events. Maybe we can have another vision showing Ned returned Dawn to Starfall and they will introduce Wylla (or even Ashara, oh yes I'd like to see Ashara). So Wylla introduction will answer all the question of who is she to show watchers (for book reader, we already know that Wylla is a wet nurse in Starfall).

So all things will become more and more clearer

[Lord Lyman]

3 hours ago, Winterstars said:

I wonder why all these deniers exist. Well, okay go on, you can argue until your death and I will only laugh. But still, I want to see what kind of face you'd make once you get the EXPLICIT confirmation. Even if you've had one from the infographic HBO released, but yeah, you're too clever to accept because Rhaegar as Jon's father is too obvious. You always want TWIST that you ignore all hints and facts and obvious things. Ah, now to think about it, I can't tell if you're too dumb or too clever to take all the hints to assume the child Lyanna bore was Arthur's.

Who says we are deniers? We are just non-confirmers. You will actually find a third overlooked group of people. The ones who believe R+L=J to be true, but are not ready to confirm it. I find the infographic to be irrelevant. Who made it? Dave? Dan? Some Intern who has no ability to fact check it? Just because it got put on an official HBO website, doesn't make it true. Look how often the major news outlets put out false information. So unless the information comes directly from Dave, Dan, George, or the show, then this theory is in the highly likely but not confirmed group.

[Meera of Tarth]

On 20 July 2016 at 1:41 AM, Sly Wren said:

Yes--the show has not done well setting up the sword. They did bring up the title--Sword of the Morning. So, that's something.

Though they also made Valyrian steel just look like normal steel--it looks really cool in the books. While Dawn is milkglass and looks alive in light. I guess the CGI wasn't workable for either Valyrian steel or milk glass Dawn. Which is really a pity.

But the books and World Book make no bones about the fact that Dawn is the only completely unique sword in the entire series. Or history of that series. And it goes back before Valyrian steel. And Martin in an SSM said that it currently waits at Starfall for the next Sword of the Morning.

In the books, the sword matters to a lot of people, including Ned, Jon, and Bran.

So far, all the show has done to tell us the sword matters has been done with conspicuous placement and camera angles. And give the name Sword of the Morning. But they took the time to do at least that. Until we get the next season or book, we don't know where they are going with this. But they took time on it.

I completely agree. Until we get more info, all we know is that something is wrong with the story Sansa has learned. But we do not know what is wrong with it. So, lots and lots of options.

My apologies--by narration I meant Bran and Bloodraven's "narration" of the scene they were watching. Not the dialogue between Ned and Arthur and the Unnamed Disposable Guy. I should have been clearer.

Bran and Bloodraven's narration was not about the valor of the kingsguard dying for their sworn duty or any of the other debates that readers have had for years on the forums.

That narration was all about the fight between Arthur and Ned's not being at all what Bran has heard. And Bran's horror and confusion about why he never knew that particular truth. Echoing Ned's convo with Bran in the books about Arthur and his sword and Ned's sadness over Arthur's death.

According to Martin and the World Book, yes. Only a worthy Dayne can wield Dawn. If there's no worthy Dayne, the sword waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning "shall arise" (to use Martin's phrasing). So, it requires both blood and "worthiness."

Absolutely. As the title of the thread says--"not confirmed." I think it very likely that Arthur is Jon's father, but there's no way the show has confirmed that. I also think it very likely that Rhaegar could be Jon's father--but the show hasn't confirmed that either.

That's very possible. It's just that of all the clues they could have shown Bran--the crowning, a shot of Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, Rhaegar playing his harp for her, the prophecy stuff--they chose none of that. They chose Arthur's death. Echoing Bran learning about Ned's sadness over Arthur in the books and Bran later wishing he'd asked why Ned was sad.

I don't think it "proves" Arthur is Jon's father. But it strongly suggests that Arthur is very important to Ned. And so far, we don't know why in the show or in the books--why does this moment matter so much?

One option--Ned killed a man without knowing he was important, personally important. If Arthur were Jon's father, that would make Ned's not telling the truth about Arthur's death make sense. And explain why Bloodraven showed Bran that death scene instead of all the other moments he could have shown Bran to tell him the truth about Jon.

Well, far as the books and show have shown us, Valyrian steel swords can be sold or stolen or given to non-family members.

Dawn only goes to a worthy Dayne. Has done for thousands of years. It's completely unique in-world.

Glad to see I am not the only one who saw that focus on Arthur Dayne in the first scene, and on Dawn in the two scenes, being the second scene all about Dawn and Jon related.

I am a fan of A+L=J and, despiteof the fact that now I think it's highly unlikely it will happen because HBO released a page where shows relationships between characters and Rhaegar is told to be the father; I'd really like it to be true, or at least Dawn to be relevant for Jon.

[J. Stargaryen]

On 7/19/2016 at 6:04 PM, Sly Wren said:

I agree it's an intro fro Dany. It's an excellent segue. But that's also because it shows us Robert's hatred of Rheagar's relatives that it works so very well to introduce Dany.

I stand by what I said about what I think the clearest implications were.

Quote

Yes--I'm really hoping the showrunners give us something of Harrenhal. Martin sure better. He's teased and teased us with the reactions to the crowning. The showrunners did, too. Really hoping we get that somehow.

Ture--but Robert rather quickly cut-and-pasted his rage onto Rhaenys and Aegon, two completely innocent little children. He dehumanized them entirely. Arthur, Rhaegar's grown-up bestie, closer than any other friend--I could see the transfer of guilt to a grown man happening pretty fast, too.

That was an extension of Robert's hatred of Targaryens. So, not what I'm talking about. Further, as Tywin tells Tyrion in ASoS, Robert knew the children had to die if he wanted to sit the IT comfortably.

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But I really hope the confusion would have made him question Lyanna's disappearance. In the books, Ned seems to struggle to get Robert to rethink much of anything--making Tywin Warden of the East, having all the Lannisters around him--and those are just minor preconceptions. The idea that Lyanna was taken and raped is REALLY strong in his head. Could see him not rethinking at all, just adding Arthur in to her list of rapists.

I don't think the examples you give tell us anything about how Robert would have reacted to a massive revelation about Lyanna ~15 years earlier, before he was king.

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Yes--until we get more text, it's hard to rule out a lot of speculation.

Not all speculation is created equally, though. I'm sure you could see Robert thinking something that would fit with your premise. But is there any evidence to support it? I've given context for Robert to believe that Rhaegar would have kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

[ShadowKitteh]

16 hours ago, Winterstars said:

I wonder why all these deniers exist. Well, okay go on, you can argue until your death and I will only laugh. But still, I want to see what kind of face you'd make once you get the EXPLICIT confirmation. Even if you've had one from the infographic HBO released, but yeah, you're too clever to accept because Rhaegar as Jon's father is too obvious. You always want TWIST that you ignore all hints and facts and obvious things. Ah, now to think about it, I can't tell if you're too dumb or too clever to take all the hints to assume the child Lyanna bore was Arthur's.

Oh, but I'm dying to know how dangerous Jon Dayne could be that Robert wanted to kill him. And why Rhaegar wanted the best kingsguards to protect the Dayne child

Sorry for being OOT for this one. But is it just me or does anyone else also think that Arthur's line was kind of similiar to Benjen when he was leaving Bran?

"Wish you good fortune in the wars to come : wish you good fortune in the wars against the dead"

I wonder if Arthur knew about the propechy all the time, Rhaegar told him and he believed it. Because I find it hard why Arthur would help Rhaegar to kidnapped/run off with/whatever Lyanna while knowing Rhaegar still had legal wife. Rhaegar's action was not honorable, no matter if it was abduction or not. So to have two kingsguards helped him and Lyanna, it must be because of strong reason.

And regarding camera focusing on Dawn in the bed of blood, I think the sword will play a role for the upcoming events. Maybe we can have another vision showing Ned returned Dawn to Starfall and they will introduce Wylla (or even Ashara, oh yes I'd like to see Ashara). So Wylla introduction will answer all the question of who is she to show watchers (for book reader, we already know that Wylla is a wet nurse in Starfall).

So all things will become more and more clearer

Rhaegar married Lyanna, because Rhaegar is an honorable dude. Targaryen = plural marriages = reasons.

Jon's legit. You say it yourself basically... No reason for the best Kings Guard to protect Arthur's bastard. Also no reason for Kings Guard to fight to the death over anyone's bastard, even Rhaegar's. 

Jon's been the heir to the Seven Kingdom's since before page 1 of Game of Thrones. It's why Ned knew Robert would need him dead.

[ice_iridium]

5 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Jon's been the heir to the Seven Kingdom's since before page 1 of Game of Thrones. It's why Ned knew Robert would need him dead.

The first words in a novel always set the tone of the story. They're also full of symbolism. And, if the writer is skilled,the ending echoes the first line. As if the reader's journey through the story must complete a cycle.
For many literary agents & writers, the first line is the most important sentence in the book.
check by yourself in google if you don't believe me.

"The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispiness that hinted at the end of the summer" are the first words picked by GRRM.
And I don't see any reference to the targ / fire / dragons.
Instead of that, I see a clear symbolism on the morning (Sword of the morning), Dawn (unique sword), the end of summer (the long night is coming).

[Voice]

2 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

The first words in a novel always set the tone of the story. They're also full of symbolism. And, if the writer is skilled,the ending echoes the first line. As if the reader's journey through the story must complete a cycle.
For many literary agents & writers, the first line is the most important sentence in the book.
check by yourself in google if you don't believe me.

"The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispiness that hinted at the end of the summer" are the first words picked by GRRM.
And I don't see any reference to the targ / fire / dragons.
Instead of that, I see a clear symbolism on the morning (Sword of the morning), Dawn (unique sword), the end of summer (the long night is coming).

 

This guy gets it. 

[ShadowKitteh]

3 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

The first words in a novel always set the tone of the story. They're also full of symbolism. And, if the writer is skilled,the ending echoes the first line. As if the reader's journey through the story must complete a cycle.
For many literary agents & writers, the first line is the most important sentence in the book.
check by yourself in google if you don't believe me.

"The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispiness that hinted at the end of the summer" are the first words picked by GRRM.
And I don't see any reference to the targ / fire / dragons.
Instead of that, I see a clear symbolism on the morning (Sword of the morning), Dawn (unique sword), the end of summer (the long night is coming).

The last line will be about being the end of winter, since the title is A Dream of Spring. You're really stretching and twisting things to fit your narrative, not the narrative on the page.

Dawn (sword) ≠ dawn (time of day.)

Why do you want GRRM to be a hack writer? Because that's what he would be if Dawn and Arthur Dayne turn out to be more important than Rhaegar Targaryen. 

[DaMavs]

4 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

The first words in a novel always set the tone of the story.

While I love the theory and find the possibility fascinating, I do wonder why the "Prologue" doesn't count as the first words in the story?  They were the first words most people would read in the novel.  While the words about Dawn are several pages into the text...