Why Jon Snow deserves to be recognized as the decisive hero of the series.

[Storm Knight]

I don't get how people get the vibe that Jon is some sort of cliche typical fantasy hero. He certainly is what you would call a "good" character but everything that has come to him I feel he has earned. And he certainly doesn't view himself as superior or above everybody else and I don't think that would change if he were to find out about his parentage.

[The Wolves]

15 hours ago, Storm Knight said:

I'm just saying he's the most selfless and I don't think he was spoiled at all at the beginning. I mean he's never shown to have any sort of resentment towards Catelyn or any of this other siblings apart from that one time where Robb tells him he'll never be lord of winterfell he seemed to get a little worked up.

Jon was spoiled at the beginning but he grew out of that bullshit, something that can't be said for 99.99999% of other characters. 

He actually listens to people and try to take some of their advice to heart. 

But there are such thing as heroes in this series. 

[Scorpion92]

I will want to ask your opinion regarding Jon AFTER you read Winds of Winter. Do not confuse show Jon with book Jon, even his resurrection will be performed entirely different involving his mind staying in Ghost for awhile and thus affecting his personality a bit. He will "kill the boy and let the man be born".

By the end of the story a lot of people will question some decisions of Jon and his ruthlessness, especially once he becomes King of Winter which will include defeating Others at Winterfell and bringing them into a fold as his Kingsguard with Bran the Three Eyed Raven overtaking and controlling the army of the dead. 

And I don't think either Jon or Dany are "prince that was promised" figure. I believe it is someone who was not born yet in this story, and George is deliberately trying to fool us into believeing it is some present character. His birth is supposed to bring "a dream of spring", the end of Long Night, "dawn", the ultimate song of "ice and fire", etc. I think it will be Jon's son by Dany who shall be named Eddard Stark, First of His Name, "the prince that was promised. But that is a completely separate topic.

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, Storm Knight said:

I don't get how people get the vibe that Jon is some sort of cliche typical fantasy hero. He certainly is what you would call a "good" character but everything that has come to him I feel he has earned. And he certainly doesn't view himself as superior or above everybody else and I don't think that would change if he were to find out about his parentage.

You feel he rightfully earned Longclaw, a "magic" sword worth an absurd fortune and the birthright of House Mormont, simply because he torched a single zombie?

Or did that he totally deserved the trust of Mance Rayder, the most shrewd Wildling Beyond the Wall, simply because he killed Qhorin?

Or that the Stark kids randomly running into a litter of direwolf pups wasn't completely contrived?

Or that both Mallister and Pyke turning down their lifelong ambitions of becoming LC in his favour wasn't complete bullshit?

Or that his eventual resurrection is not equally groan-inducing?

As for not believing himself above others, Whittlestick, Bowen Marsh, and Othell Yarwick would disagree. They all voice very valid concerns, and he simply ignores them. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 minutes ago, Sullen said:

You feel he rightfully earned Longclaw, a "magic" sword worth an absurd fortune and the birthright of House Mormont, simply because he torched a single zombie?

I would say that you are right but he didn't just torched a zombie he saved Jeor's life.

[Sullen]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I would say that you are right but he didn't just torched a zombie he saved Jeor's life.

He did his job, what pretty much anyone would have done in his stead.

Jeor being unreasonably lax and chill with Jon was already established though, with the whole "I don't care if you tried to murder your superiour, you won't be punished" business. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Sullen said:

He did his job, what pretty much anyone would have done in his stead.

Jeor being unreasonably lax and chill with Jon was already established though, with the whole "I don't care if you tried to murder your superiour, you won't be punished" business. 

His job wasn't to risk his life in order to save Jeor from a zombie.

[El Guapo]

Well let's not even get into the fact that the only reason he was able to save Jeor is because for some unknown reason Jon was allowed to have a magical pet with him at the Wall.

 

 

[Sullen]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

His job wasn't to risk his life in order to save Jeor from a zombie.

As a Night's Watchmen, his job was absolutely to defend his Lord Commander if he was in danger.

[The Drunkard]

16 hours ago, Storm Knight said:

Oh come on guys Jon's not that boring. And can anyone give me instances in the text where Jon comes of as entitled or petulant? I'm just saying Jon has had to make very difficult choices and he's always done the right thing. Things haven't fallen perfectly in place for him, which is a good excuse for a lot of other characters to become bitter and angry and turn to hatred and violence. Jon's strength of character is incredible in this sense.

It's not that incredible, he's fictional. Reacting properly to every scenario and never having to face tough decisions is uninteresting.

I thought his story was best in ADWD where he wasn't necessarily acting properly. He tried balancing his duties as LC (one of which is to be neutral) with his desire to punish the Boltons vicariously through Stannis, and came out strongly in favour of the latter by the end. And then he deserts the NW to do it himself despite knowing the Others are more important than anything else.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

22 minutes ago, Sullen said:

As a Night's Watchmen, his job was absolutely to defend his Lord Commander if he was in danger.

According Jeor's rule Jon's work was to take care of Jeor's food, clothes and chamberpot.

22 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

magical pet

Said the prson who supports someone who was given three winged reptiles pet. Afair there was no rule against a pet at the Wall.

[Sullen]

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

According Jeor's rule Jon's work was to take care of Jeor's food, clothes and chamberpot.

That's not all he had to do, but yeah, those were tasks specific to him.

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Said the prson who supports someone who was given three winged reptiles pet.

She was given three useless but very expensive rocks by one of the richest men on the planet, who needed to buy her gratitude and that of her new husband's. The winged reptiles only show up after she burns a witch and goes full crazy, jumping into the fire.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Sullen said:

She was given three useless but very expensive rocks by one of the richest men on the planet, who needed to buy her gratitude and that of her new husband's. The winged reptiles only show up after she burns a witch and goes full crazy, jumping into the fire.

That doens't mean that she was given those pet who actually have done her dirty work. She has given the eggs for no reason and the witch gave the power for the reptiles.

[Sullen]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That doens't mean that she was given those pet who actually have done her dirty work. She has given the eggs for no reason and the witch gave the power for the reptiles.

Except there is a good reason she was given the eggs, as I said, Illyrio wanted to buy her loyalty, and Drogo's as well. And yeah, the witch gave the reptiles their power, but only after Dany went full psycho and burned her.

The witch giving life to the eggs, I'd agree, was sort of plot gift, but nothing close to either the direwolf or the sword.

[PirateVergo]

1 hour ago, Minsc said:

Jon is more of a Mary Sue than Dany.

 

Uh? Wasn't aware Jon was the most beautiful man in the world, gave birth to 3 dragons, took entire cities at the age of what ... 14? 15? Led entire armies and freed slaves on top of outsmarting men with decades of experience.

 

1 hour ago, Minsc said:

Also Dany's story has at least of number of awesome moments while Jon's biggest highlight seems to be executing a C-list (at best) villain.

Oh and you think a Mary Sue best moment would be to kill Janos Slynt? No it wouldn't, that support my case Dany is the mary ue

 

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

Considering Daenerys made quite a fuck-up of Essos and takes part in several morally dubious activities, I'd hardly call her a Mary Sue. For fuck's sake, she gets dysentery and fails to make a hat.

 

She gave birth to Dragons,walked through fire, took entire cities, led an army at the age of 14, her fuck-up led to absolutely nothing as nobody was even able to touch her.

She is the very exact definition of a Mary Sue.

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

If anything, post-AGoT Jon is the closest thing to a Mary Sue the series has.

He's loved by every "good" character he encounters (bar Cat), has a magic sword (that he was rewarded by doing almost nothing), a magic wolf, magic powers, is secretly the son of the "Perfect couple", the "rightful King", and the in-universe Messiah.

Wait wait Jon saved Mormont's life and burned his hand to do so and you say that is "almost nothing" what did Dany do to deserve dragons exactly? She was gifetd the eggs because of her name. He isn't loved by every good character in the series or maybe your definition of a "good" character isn't the same as mine. Also your point apply to Dany too  The magic Wolf argument is that sarcasm? Daenerys got 3 dragons, Jon barely got any magic powers not more than any of the other Stark Siblings at least and much less than Bran does.

Calling Rhaegar/Lyanna a perfect couple is just lol, Jon isn't the rightful king either and you can't prove he's a Messiah while it's very likely Danerys is one.

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

She gave birth to Dragons,walked through fire, took entire cities, led an army at the age of 14, her fuck-up led to absolutely nothing as nobody was even able to touch her.

She is the very exact definition of a Mary Sue.

Nobody was able to touch her? She lost her husband, her blindness to other people's suffering and her saviour's complex was rubbed in her face more than once (from the top of my head both Mirri and Xaro absolutely destroy her on that one), she keeps losing her armies, freed a city and turned it into a hellhole, tried to rule a city and turned it into a hellhole, and now she's stranded in the middle of nowhere, severely dehydrated, with a bad case of diarrhea. Not only that, but she endorsed the rape and pillaging of the Dothraki as long as it gave her an army, eliminated a whole socioeconomic class from Astapor with no regards to individual guilt, and practiced blanket punishments in Meerenn, losing her shit and acting irrationally here and there.

She's a massive fuck-up and morally grey character, a petulant child with a holier-than-thou attitude and a saviour`s complex.

She's anything but a Mary Sue.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Except there is a good reason she was given the eggs, as I said, Illyrio wanted to buy her loyalty, and Drogo's as well. And yeah, the witch gave the reptiles their power, but only after Dany went full psycho and burned her.

There was no reason to buy jher alliance with three so precious gifts, lesser gifts would had been enough. The fact that Dany was a psycho and got into that fire isn't something that gave her the dragons.

11 minutes ago, Sullen said:

The witch giving life to the eggs, I'd agree, was sort of plot gift, but nothing close to either the direwolf or the sword.

I disagree. Someone happens to give three rare and precious eggs to Dany, Drogo happens to care about her, MMD happened to burn her. Dany has done anything to gain it. Jon at least fought for Jeor and fought for the direwolves.

[Sullen]

Wait wait Jon saved Mormont's life and burned his hand to do so and you say that is "almost nothing" what did Dany do to deserve dragons exactly? She was gifetd the eggs because of her name. He isn't loved by every good character in the series or maybe your definition of a "good" character isn't the same as mine. Also your point apply to Dany too  The magic Wolf argument is that sarcasm? Daenerys got 3 dragons, Jon barely got any magic powers not more than any of the other Stark Siblings at least and much less than Bran does.

He burned his hand and was rewarded by something so expensive even the richest family on the continent cannot afford one, it's competly ridiculous anyway you try to put it.

Which "Good" character dislikes him apart from Catelyn then?

Dany was gifted the eggs because Illyrio needs her, and because they don't mean anything to him, he's that rich.

The dragons have a valid reason to be there, they don't just appear out of nowhere.

All the Start siblings have plot gifts, Bran being crippled compensates for his magical powers.

[khal drogon]

15 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

Uh? Wasn 't aware Jon was the most beautiful man in the world, gave birth to 3 dragons, took entire cities at the age of what ... 14? 15? Led entire armies and freed slaves on top of outsmarting men with decades of experience.

 

Oh and you think a Mary Sue best moment would be to kill Janos Slynt? No it wouldn't, that support my case Dany is the mary ue

 

She gave birth to Dragons,walked through fire, took entire cities, led an army at the age of 14, her fuck-up led to absolutely nothing as nobody was even able to touch her.

She is the very exact definition of a Mary Sue.

Wait wait Jon saved Mormont's life and burned his hand to do so and you say that is "almost nothing" what did Dany do to deserve dragons exactly? She was gifetd the eggs because of her name. He isn't loved by every good character in the series or maybe your definition of a "good" character isn't the same as mine. Also your point apply to Dany too  The magic Wolf argument is that sarcasm? Daenerys got 3 dragons, Jon barely got any magic powers not more than any of the other Stark Siblings at least and much less than Bran does.

Calling Rhaegar/Lyanna a perfect couple is just lol, Jon isn't the rightful king either and you can't prove he's a Messiah while it's very likely Danerys is one.

What is Mary Sue according to you? If you use logic then you would find more points for Jon being one than Dany.

For a start let's compare magical gifts. Jon is born with skinchanging powers. Dany had no natural magical abilities. Jon just stumbles upon direwolves which just happens to be there. Illyrio gifts fossil dragon eggs which is an appropriate gift for a Targ girl. Jon just realise he could warg. Dany does a lot of shit from sacrificing her son and husband to burning the witch along with herself jumping in the pyre to hatch dragons. Now say which is more earned.

[Storm Knight]

I'm just saying in this messed up world, especially in the Cold Frigid north with bad company, some people still chose to be good and do the right thing and Jon is one of them. He hasn't let the world corrupt him. That's a sign of a strong and interesting character to me. And Jeor gave his sword to Jon probably because he had a soft spot for him, since Jon identified with Northern Values so strongly and probably saw the son in Jon that he never had unlike Jorah who always seemed to have southern ambitions.