Aegon's absence is really noticeable now

[Lord_Ravenstone]

2 hours ago, Lyin' Ned said:

That's not enough for me. Varys and Illyrio are not big enough parts of Aegon's story. For the most part we're stuck with Aegon, Jon Connington and the rest for the bulk of ADWD, neither of which we actually know. And Jon's bland and uninspiring POV narration does him no favors. 

Simply put, the fifth installment of a planned seven-novel series is too late to introduce the character who's poised to be the biggest game-changer. And don't give me any of that "But AFFC and ADWD are the same book" excuse because they ain't, they were published six years apart. 

Whatever intrigue Varys and Illyrio might've going on in the first book is not enough to make me invested in these Johnny Come Late characters and not enough to make their introduction look like something out of left field and like a bad soap opera twist. 

YMVV, but for me that was GRRM's mistake to wait so long to show his hand, much like Doran.

Big enough parts? Varys and Illyrio are the architects behind Aegon.

Varys and Illyrio moving of Rhaegar, Aerys, Dany and Viserys and taking down the Targaryen dynasty in general in the RR era was all to put Aegon on the Iron Throne.

If there's no Aegon, Varys' actions don't make sense. And Varys is as big of a player as Littlefinger.

And well an Aegon-like figure is also true to reality. Perkin Warbeck. 

I mean I understand that you're not into it because he showed up late but Aegon doesn't work unless he comes after the War of 5 kings. So there's nothing you can do to fix it.

He's Euron and Dany's foil. All 3 of them don't come to Westeros until near the end of the story. 

Also Aegon steals Dany's thunder and prevents her from being seen as some sort of savior figure in Westeros and subverts a certain cliche which I'm very happy about 

I think we're going to find that Dany's story as GRRM envisioned it wouldn't work without Aegon.

The show plays this straight with everyone rallying to her for a curb stomp battle against the Lannisters and playing a straight cliche savior and now it's good versus evil which I find less compelling than the gray Daenerys (our supposed hero) fighting the lighter gray Aegon

[Rubicante]

As most people have already said, I find it odd for Varys to plan the poisoning of Dany in season 1 and then be completely on Dany's side starting in season 5.  People do change their minds and allegiances over time, Jorah being a good example of this, but there needs to be consequences of these initial actions.  In the case of Jorah, he was banished.  How could Dany possibly trust Varys now?  Yet another reason why I found that last shot of season 6 to be so offensive (aside from the obvious distraction of Varys being in Dorne a few scenes earlier and then in Dany's fleet at the end of the episode). 

I can't remember how this played out in the book.  When Arya hears Varys and Illyrio talking in the dungeons of King's Landing, who did they specifically seem to support then?  And who did Illyrio support when Tyrion arrived in Pentos?

[illinifan]

6 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Aegon (in addition to Euron who is his parallel) don't work unless they're introduced after the War of 5 kings as a consequence of the world messing itself up.

 

This guy gets it:

"Aegon’s pretty vital thematically. Feigned princes are of course an IRL phenomenon, but within the context of this story in particular (as it plays out especially in the cyvasse game with Tyrion and Varys’ monologue in the epilogue to ADWD), what emerges is the Perfect Prince mythos as an in-universe trope being deployed as propaganda, in a manner designed to call attention to how this sort of narrative often works in other fantasy novels. Aegon’s basically trying to hijack the protagonist role of ASOIAF (as Euron’s trying to hijack the antagonist role), and I think his story is meant in part as a satire of audience expectations for our actual protagonists

In other words, GRRM’s saying “You want Dany to just come home already and have a stunning uninterrupted rise to victory? You want the world to know Jon as Rhaegar’s son and the cheering crowds to hail his crowning? OK, here’s that story, but it’s with a brand new character who’s a pawn of Varys in manipulating and hijacking exactly those tropes and concepts, and it’s going to end in tragedy when Dany comes to claim the protagonist role back.” It’s not a detached, pitiless critique (there’s real empathy for and dedication to the actual characters involved, especially Jon Connington), but I think it’s definitely meant to call attention to the fact that GRRM’s not telling this kind of story with Jon and Dany, encouraging us to think critically about what their stories will actually look like. 

It’s fundamentally a satire of the Chosen One narrative. Aegon’s a prefab hero designed in-universe to meet every standard on the Hero’s Journey Checklist. It’s a fantasy story within another fantasy story that won’t let it succeed, because it isn’t earned. Which it will be with Jon and Dany…which is why it annoyed me so damn much that the Season 6 finale framed Jon in pure uncut Chosen One terms even though he did so little this season to earn it. "

 

Both the book and the show have gone out of their way to subvert this by showing both Dany and Jon aren't that good at ruling which makes sense given that both would never have been taught how to rule.  I'm not sure why we need fAegon to emphasize this point again.  

And the Northern lords are bowing to the legend of Jon Snow rather than the man himself perhaps?  I actually think it would be interesting if Jon turns out to be a decent king and if he actually wins a battle through strategy (like bailing out Auntie Dany) but he loses focus on the big picture and then the Wall comes crashing down.

[illinifan]

3 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

As most people have already said, I find it odd for Varys to plan the poisoning of Dany in season 1 and then be completely on Dany's side starting in season 5.  People do change their minds and allegiances over time, Jorah being a good example of this, but there needs to be consequences of these initial actions.  In the case of Jorah, he was banished.  How could Dany possibly trust Varys now?  Yet another reason why I found that last shot of season 6 to be so offensive (aside from the obvious distraction of Varys being in Dorne a few scenes earlier and then in Dany's fleet at the end of the episode). 

I can't remember how this played out in the book.  When Arya hears Varys and Illyrio talking in the dungeons of King's Landing, who did they specifically seem to support then?  And who did Illyrio support when Tyrion arrived in Pentos?

Varys assumed that Jorah was going to save Dany which is why the "little bird" told Jorah about the plot right before it happened.

[Rubicante]

4 minutes ago, illinifan said:

Varys assumed that Jorah was going to save Dany which is why the "little bird" told Jorah about the plot right before it happened.

That's a pretty big gamble to make.  Didn't Jorah's part in providing information to Varys give him a royal pardon to return to Westeros? 

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

37 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Big enough parts? Varys and Illyrio are the architects behind Aegon.

Varys and Illyrio moving of Rhaegar, Aerys, Dany and Viserys and taking down the Targaryen dynasty in general in the RR era was all to put Aegon on the Iron Throne.

If there's no Aegon, Varys' actions don't make sense. And Varys is as big of a player as Littlefinger.

And well an Aegon-like figure is also true to reality. Perkin Warbeck. 

I mean I understand that you're not into it because he showed up late but Aegon doesn't work unless he comes after the War of 5 kings. So there's nothing you can do to fix it.

He's Euron and Dany's foil. All 3 of them don't come to Westeros until near the end of the story. 

Also Aegon steals Dany's thunder and prevents her from being seen as some sort of savior figure in Westeros and subverts a certain cliche which I'm very happy about 

I think we're going to find that Dany's story as GRRM envisioned it wouldn't work without Aegon.

The show plays this straight with everyone rallying to her for a curb stomp battle against the Lannisters and playing a straight cliche savior and now it's good versus evil which I find less compelling than the gray Daenerys (our supposed hero) fighting the lighter gray Aegon

You misunderstood me. I meant that Varys and Illyrio don't have much impact on Aegon's chapters directly. Obviously they're the puppet masters pulling the strings behind the scenes, but we only see Illyrio for a couple of chapters in ADWD and Varys for even less. The rest of the time we're stuck with Aegon, Jon, etc, which are characters we barely know, and that IMHO don't have the pizzazz and immediate charisma of memorable characters like Oberyn, Olenna, Euron, etc, who won the reader's attention with a few lines. I simply cannot be engaged by Aegon and his crew, it's a tall order from GRRM to ask me to be deeply invested in characters who showed up to late and aren't capable of holding my interest. 

And like I said, even if Aegon had to enter the fray this late for plot reasons he didn't have to be introduced in this manner as well. GRRM should've included cameos by Jon or Lemore or even an incognito Aegon himself in earlier books, without revealing their true identities or goals but setting the stage properly for their entrance to the story. As it stands, Aegon and Friends' set up or build up consisted in ambiguous and speculative notions about Varys' plans and a single, equally ambiguous line from ACOK.

I say it again, it's not enough for a character as important as Aegon, and it's jarring that he had so little foreshadowing or build up considering the amount of them other characters and events have in the earlier books. The absence of such for Aegon makes him seem, to my view, as a last minute, clumsily tacked on addition.  

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, illinifan said:

Both the book and the show have gone out of their way to subvert this by showing both Dany and Jon aren't that good at ruling which makes sense given that both would never have been taught how to rule.  I'm not sure why we need fAegon to emphasize this point again.  

And the Northern lords are bowing to the legend of Jon Snow rather than the man himself perhaps?  I actually think it would be interesting if Jon turns out to be a decent king and if he actually wins a battle through strategy (like bailing out Auntie Dany) but he loses focus on the big picture and then the Wall comes crashing down.

But that's subverting. GRRM is deconstructing it here which is different.

The North bowing down to Jon doesn't really make sense in my view in the show because Jon's been constantly failing the whole season. He looks like a chump.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said:

You misunderstood me. I meant that Varys and Illyrio don't have much impact on Aegon's chapters directly. Obviously they're the puppet masters pulling the strings behind the scenes, but we only see Illyrio for a couple of chapters in ADWD and Varys for even less. The rest of the time we're stuck with Aegon, Jon, etc, which are characters we barely know, and that IMHO don't have the pizzazz and immediate charisma of memorable characters like Oberyn, Olenna, Euron, etc, who won the reader's attention with a few lines. I simply cannot be engaged by Aegon and his crew, it's a tall order from GRRM to ask me to be deeply invested in characters who showed up to late and aren't capable of holding my interest. 

And like I said, even if Aegon had to enter the fray this late for plot reasons he didn't have to be introduced in this manner as well. GRRM should've included cameos by Jon or Lemore or even an incognito Aegon himself in earlier books, without revealing their true identities or goals but setting the stage properly for their entrance to the story. As it stands, Aegon and Friends' set up or build up consisted in ambiguous and speculative notions about Varys' plans and a single, equally ambiguous line from ACOK.

I say it again, it's not enough for a character as important as Aegon, and it's jarring that he had so little foreshadowing or build up considering the amount of them other characters and events have in the earlier books. The absence of such for Aegon makes him seem, to my view, as a last minute, clumsily tacked on addition.  

To be honest, I love Jon Con. He's very much in the vein of Randyll, Stannis and Tywin except it's his regret and love for a dead man that's motivating him to do what needs to be done and redeem himself which makes him more original in this setting.

Aegon's supposed to be your typical fantasy hero so he's kind of supposed to be stale because we see those a lot. And that's okay because GRRM is deconstructing that by clashing the fantasy hero story that we didn't see from the beginning with the fantasy hero story that was actually earned.

I mean how foreshadowing so you really need. Many people used to think that Joffrey being behind Bran's assassination attempt was a last minute addition by GRRM but GRRM confirmed he knew that it was going to be Joffrey from the beginning 

Yeah maybe he could've foreshadowed Aegon more but I'd argue that the idea behind Aegon came before GRRM's notion for Euron. And Aegon has historical inspiration behind it:

Like after the War of the Roses was concluded an Aegon like figure named Perkin Warbeck, who is pretending to be one the princes in the tower, pops up and fights Henry Tudor for the throne. This is based off of that.

Aegon's great in that he prevents Daenerys from being seen as a savior figure in Westeros and we finally get a real vaguely good versus vaguely good war. 

Sometimes both sides aren't villainous and I like that.

In the show, it's just Daenerys, the Jesus Christ figure, that everyone backs versus the Mad Queen Cersei which is find less compelling narratively.

[illinifan]

5 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

But that's subverting. GRRM is deconstructing it here which is different.

The North bowing down to Jon doesn't really make sense in my view in the show because Jon's been constantly failing the whole season. He looks like a chump.

How is that different?  And yes, I would like to see Jon (and Dany) grow into competent rulers but I don't see how where the show ended up is that big of a stretch.

[Lautrec]

14 hours ago, Ruhail said:

The show should have killed everyone bar Cersei, Jon, Dany, Sansa and Tyrion in S4

Reducing the argument to absurdity doesn't in any way change how pointless Aegon feels. If we had to choose between those 5 characters and Arianne, Quentyn, Aegon, Victarion and Brienne, I'm sure we'd all choose the ones you mentioned, even the hardcore Feast and Dance apologists. There's a good balance than can be made, and if Martin wrote Feast and Dance well and with more composure and less indulgence then maybe these characters wouldn't feel so bland, empty and boring, and worst of all they came at the expense of the good characters we actually care about. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Aegon (in addition to Euron who is his parallel) don't work unless they're introduced after the War of 5 kings as a consequence of the world messing itself up.

 

This guy gets it:

"Aegon’s pretty vital thematically. Feigned princes are of course an IRL phenomenon, but within the context of this story in particular (as it plays out especially in the cyvasse game with Tyrion and Varys’ monologue in the epilogue to ADWD), what emerges is the Perfect Prince mythos as an in-universe trope being deployed as propaganda, in a manner designed to call attention to how this sort of narrative often works in other fantasy novels. Aegon’s basically trying to hijack the protagonist role of ASOIAF (as Euron’s trying to hijack the antagonist role), and I think his story is meant in part as a satire of audience expectations for our actual protagonists

In other words, GRRM’s saying “You want Dany to just come home already and have a stunning uninterrupted rise to victory? You want the world to know Jon as Rhaegar’s son and the cheering crowds to hail his crowning? OK, here’s that story, but it’s with a brand new character who’s a pawn of Varys in manipulating and hijacking exactly those tropes and concepts, and it’s going to end in tragedy when Dany comes to claim the protagonist role back.” It’s not a detached, pitiless critique (there’s real empathy for and dedication to the actual characters involved, especially Jon Connington), but I think it’s definitely meant to call attention to the fact that GRRM’s not telling this kind of story with Jon and Dany, encouraging us to think critically about what their stories will actually look like. 

It’s fundamentally a satire of the Chosen One narrative. Aegon’s a prefab hero designed in-universe to meet every standard on the Hero’s Journey Checklist. It’s a fantasy story within another fantasy story that won’t let it succeed, because it isn’t earned. Which it will be with Jon and Dany…which is why it annoyed me so damn much that the Season 6 finale framed Jon in pure uncut Chosen One terms even though he did so little this season to earn it. "

 

I'm not saying the introduction wasn't at the proper time, it was the most proper, but still a bad time because the story had already been going on for so long (4000 pages by the time he appears, just compare that to any other story!). Not to mention how soap opera the whole baby switch thing felt, especially after zero (yes, zero) set-up. Even if he had been foreshadowed and slowly introduced extensively it would still be bad because it's just too late. No amount of "thematic significance" can excuse bad writing. You can find themes in everything, they are an inherent part of every story, but that doesn't make it well written, and Aegon as an arc certainly isn't.

[Ruhail]

1 minute ago, Lautrec said:

Reducing the argument to absurdity doesn't in any way change how pointless Aegon feels. If we had to choose between those 5 characters and Arianne, Quentyn, Aegon, Victarion and Brienne, I'm sure we'd all choose the ones you mentioned, even the hardcore Feast and Dance apologists. There's a good balance than can be made, and if Martin wrote Feast and Dance well and with more composure and less indulgence then maybe these characters wouldn't feel so bland, empty and boring, and worst of all they came at the expense of the good characters we actually care about. 

 

 

I'm not saying the introduction wasn't at the proper time, it was the most proper, but still a bad time because the story had already been going on for so long (4000 pages by the time he appears, just compare that to any other story!). Not to mention how soap opera the whole baby switch thing felt, especially after zero (yes, zero) set-up. Even if he had been foreshadowed and slowly introduced extensively it would still be bad because it's just too late. No amount of "thematic significance" can excuse bad writing. You can find themes in everything, they are an inherent part of every story, but that doesn't make it well written, and Aegon as an arc certainly isn't.

Reducing the argument to what? All people complain about is how this is filler that is filler and how only the endgame is important and how grrm has lost track etc. if this is the greatest show on Earth then they can surely wrap up and condense everything the way people are always saying grrm never will and cut everything out that has nothing to do with snuh and dany vs the WW?

[Lautrec]

1 minute ago, Ruhail said:

Reducing the argument to what? All people complain about is how this is filler that is filler and how only the endgame is important and how grrm has lost track etc. if this is the greatest show on Earth then they can surely wrap up and condense everything the way people are always saying grrm never will and cut everything out that has nothing to do with snuh and dany vs the WW?

Again, you are completely missing the point. It's not about the two extremes, one being just Dany, Jon and Tyrion, and the other being just Victarion, Quentyn and Aegon, it's about striking a proper balance, and Feast and Dance (especially Feast) don't. If those auxiliary characters had appeared for a chapter or two each or were off-screen or appeared briefly in the chapters of PoV characters we actually grew to care about (and no amount of defense of them will ever convince me that Victarion or Quentyn of Aegon are well-written, compelling characters, especially when compared to the main cast), then their inclusion would be justified, but their appearance comes at the expense of actual plot progression (not that the main characters in Feast and Dance were really good in this manner either, but that's a slightly separate issue). If the battles of Meereen and Winterfell were really excluded from Dance because the "book was already getting too big" (the stupidest thing I've ever heard in terms of good editing), then wouldn't you prefer if the amount of space Quentyn and Arianne and Areo and Arys took was used for the battles and actual resolution?


Anyways, I hope you reallly, really, really love these characters, because of their inclusion and the amount of time and space Martin has wasted we are probably never going to see an end to this ever-growing series. Hope they were worth it.

[Ruhail]

13 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Again, you are completely missing the point. It's not about the two extremes, one being just Dany, Jon and Tyrion, and the other being just Victarion, Quentyn and Aegon, it's about striking a proper balance, and Feast and Dance (especially Feast) don't. If those auxiliary characters had appeared for a chapter or two each or were off-screen or appeared briefly in the chapters of PoV characters we actually grew to care about (and no amount of defense of them will ever convince me that Victarion or Quentyn of Aegon are well-written, compelling characters, especially when compared to the main cast), then their inclusion would be justified, but their appearance comes at the expense of actual plot progression (not that the main characters in Feast and Dance were really good in this manner either, but that's a slightly separate issue). If the battles of Meereen and Winterfell were really excluded from Dance because the "book was already getting too big" (the stupidest thing I've ever heard in terms of good editing), then wouldn't you prefer if the amount of space Quentyn and Arianne and Areo and Arys took was used for the battles and actual resolution?


Anyways, I hope you reallly, really, really love these characters, because of their inclusion and the amount of time and space Martin has wasted we are probably never going to see an end to this ever-growing series. Hope they were worth it.

And I too hope you enjoy your tardis travelling inconsistent shocking characters.

[Lautrec]

1 minute ago, Ruhail said:

And I too hope you enjoy your tardis travelling inconsistent shocking characters.

I will, thank you. Because there will be actual, existing material to enjoy 

[CrypticWeirwood]

8 hours ago, illinifan said:

Both the book and the show have gone out of their way to subvert this by showing both Dany and Jon aren't that good at ruling which makes sense given that both would never have been taught how to rule.  I'm not sure why we need fAegon to emphasize this point again.  

And the Northern lords are bowing to the legend of Jon Snow rather than the man himself perhaps?  I actually think it would be interesting if Jon turns out to be a decent king and if he actually wins a battle through strategy (like bailing out Auntie Dany) but he loses focus on the big picture and then the Wall comes crashing down.

The same HBO infographic that showed us FakeJon’s parents also showed that Aegon was killed by Gregor.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, Lautrec said:

Reducing the argument to absurdity doesn't in any way change how pointless Aegon feels. If we had to choose between those 5 characters and Arianne, Quentyn, Aegon, Victarion and Brienne, I'm sure we'd all choose the ones you mentioned, even the hardcore Feast and Dance apologists. There's a good balance than can be made, and if Martin wrote Feast and Dance well and with more composure and less indulgence then maybe these characters wouldn't feel so bland, empty and boring, and worst of all they came at the expense of the good characters we actually care about. 

 

 

I'm not saying the introduction wasn't at the proper time, it was the most proper, but still a bad time because the story had already been going on for so long (4000 pages by the time he appears, just compare that to any other story!). Not to mention how soap opera the whole baby switch thing felt, especially after zero (yes, zero) set-up. Even if he had been foreshadowed and slowly introduced extensively it would still be bad because it's just too late. No amount of "thematic significance" can excuse bad writing. You can find themes in everything, they are an inherent part of every story, but that doesn't make it well written, and Aegon as an arc certainly isn't.

The baby switch is a lie though and propaganda that Varys is twisting to his advantage to create a narrative of the the one true king returning to save Westeros from the evil Lannisters

that's part of the point 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, illinifan said:

How is that different?  And yes, I would like to see Jon (and Dany) grow into competent rulers but I don't see how where the show ended up is that big of a stretch.

Because a subversion is not following through with the usual tropes 

And a deconstruction is playing with the tropes in an actual realistic manner 

[lancerman]

I don't really see it. Aegon in the books feels so tacked on that literally his only relevance right now is centered around Dorne and Vary's. And that's only because Doran's plan was exceptionally dumb and it failed so now he's resorted to hitching his cart to someone that nobody believes in.

Really seems like a manufactured obstacle for Dany. The Lannister's are weak so this fake prince and his crew arrives out of nowhere with the help of Dorne and they beat her to the punch so that she has to prove he's a fake to unite the Southern part of Westeros. Which would be massively disappointing if Cersie got dispatched for some bit players to artificially extend Dany's storyline more than it already is.

Even if he was always part of the plan, it's so late in the game that it hurts the story imo. That's something that should feel like a major development. And unless he turns out to be legit  and a major factor in the endgame as a final swerve, it just feels needless.This series was already suffering under the weight of extending the inevitable plotlines for as far as it could go. No need anymore.

Dorne wasn't anything special in the show, but atleast it was quick, didn't take up to much time, wasn't convoluted (only shallow) and pivoted back into the greater arc.

 

[Lautrec]

10 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The baby switch is a lie though and propaganda that Varys is twisting to his advantage to create a narrative of the the one true king returning to save Westeros from the evil Lannisters

that's part of the point 

Intentionally bad is still bad, unfortunately.

[illinifan]

16 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Because a subversion is not following through with the usual tropes 

And a deconstruction is playing with the tropes in an actual realistic manner 

You don't think that it is a deconstruction of the usual tropes that Dany is an awful ruler whose go to method of dealing with problems is burning everything down and who Tyrion has pointed out more than once that she displays the same tendencies as her father?