Aegon's absence is really noticeable now

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

49 minutes ago, ewantu2 said:

It's kinda become the battle of good vs evil now. It's not grey like how it's supposed to be. 

Yeah because Euron is as grey as they come in the books 

[Masha]

2 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

What about Trystane? He's still alive. Are you forgetting him?

Trystane is what - 12 years old, in the story he is literally non-entity, at best he is like Rickon. He is no good for any Targ alliance. With Quentyn and Arianne's death, Doran not provide any support to Targs at best, at worst, he might actively impede them. Seriously, what long game can there be, if both of his children die due to Targs, after his siblings died due to Lannisters? 

He wanted revenge for the horrible death of his sister, and now brother. He already lost a son, now a daughter due to that game.

[StarkofWinterfell]

2 minutes ago, Masha said:

Trystane is what - 12 years old, in the story he is literally non-entity, at best he is like Rickon. He is no good for any Targ alliance. With Quentyn and Arianne's death, Doran not provide any support to Targs at best, at worst, he might actively impede them. Seriously, what long game can there be, if both of his children die due to Targs, after his siblings died due to Lannisters? 

He wanted revenge for the horrible death of his sister, and now brother. He already lost a son, now a daughter due to that game.

Being young does not mean he does not exist. Your post read as if Doran only has two children - Quentyn and Arianne. I was merely correcting you.

[illinifan]

8 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Yeah because Euron is as grey as they come in the books 

Euron is evil in the books.  On the show, he is a Trump knockoff.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

17 minutes ago, illinifan said:

Euron is evil in the books.  On the show, he is a Trump knockoff.

How's that not evil?

[illinifan]

13 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

How's that not evil?

True.  Perhaps I was looking for more menacing evil.

[Darksky]

1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Yeah because Euron is as grey as they come in the books 

Or Joffrey, or Ramsay, or Tywin (who is a much better character in the show, not such a one-note like in the books) and a few more.

To the OP, jeez you had to remind me of that stupid cardboard cutout of a character lol

FAegon-less story is automatically a better story. WTF Martin, what were you thinking?

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On 6/30/2016 at 3:52 AM, JonSnowed said:

Well I've gone from originally wanting fAegon in the show to being glad he's not to be honest. I really enjoy the books but the show has done well to remove some of the filler and I'm now thinking Cersei/Euron Vs Dany is better for the show than fAegon also being in the mix.

I hate it because Cersei/Euron versus Dany is now good versus evil

I mean Euron is straight up black in the books but Aegon is a lighter shade of gray than Daenerys and Cersei is a darker shade of gray than Daenerys.

So it's a full spectrum of scales. 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

27 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Or Joffrey, or Ramsay, or Tywin (who is a much better character in the show, not such a one-note like in the books) and a few more.

To the OP, jeez you had to remind me of that stupid cardboard cutout of a character lol

FAegon-less story is automatically a better story. WTF Martin, what were you thinking?

Why is it better? 

It's thematically appropriate. I mean it's a satire of the Perfect Prince trope and Hidden Heir trope that GRRM isn't going to do with Jon.

 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

1 minute ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Why is it better? 

It's thematically appropriate. I mean it's a satire of the Perfect Prince trope and Hidden Heir trope that GRRM isn't going to do with Jon.

 

Plus he is based off of a real figure in English history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkin_Warbeck

[Eddard Scissorhands]

On 30 Jun 2016 at 11:17 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I have literally no idea how you could fit it in, or make it interesting to your average viewer. Its just an added complication, I don't think anyone would want to watch it except a few book readers.

Just like they fit in Euron Greyjoy by letting him show up last minute, with virtually no prior introduction. Also probably not a major player, but an obstacle, roadblock. At this point not looking so interesting or believable to me, let alone to the average viewer. That part I agree on.

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 hours ago, Masha said:

Probably, next, Arianne manages to kill herself, after attaching herself to fAegon, and that will prompt Doran either to die of broken heart or withdraw his alliance from Targs.

Perhaps, D&D can play Varys plot by having him desert Dany for Jon once he learns of Jon's true heritage. 

No, you mean having Varys desert Dany for FakeJon once he learns of FakeJon’s true heritage.

Either that or else you have to stop calling Aegon fake names. Anything less is hypocrisy. 

[Eddard Scissorhands]

1 hour ago, Darksky said:

[Lautrec]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Why is it better? 

It's thematically appropriate. I mean it's a satire of the Perfect Prince trope and Hidden Heir trope that GRRM isn't going to do with Jon.

 

He was simply introduced too late into the story. Just like most of the new character arcs in Feast and Dance, he is fine on his own (Brienne's adventures would make a good novella, Quentyn could easily be a short story and fAegon a whole, good, standalone novel if you included all of his proper story), but in the context of the overall narrative we've been following for 3000 pages, it just inherently feels redundant, pointless and annoying. I remember that I quite literally rolled my eyes when he appeared in Dance. 

[Ruhail]

4 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

He was simply introduced too late into the story. Just like most of the new character arcs in Feast and Dance, he is fine on his own (Brienne's adventures would make a good novella, Quentyn could easily be a short story and fAegon a whole, good, standalone novel if you included all of his proper story), but in the context of the overall narrative we've been following for 3000 pages, it just inherently feels redundant, pointless and annoying. I remember that I quite literally rolled my eyes when he appeared in Dance. 

The show should have killed everyone bar Cersei, Jon, Dany, Sansa and Tyrion in S4

[Lord_Ravenstone]

17 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

He was simply introduced too late into the story. Just like most of the new character arcs in Feast and Dance, he is fine on his own (Brienne's adventures would make a good novella, Quentyn could easily be a short story and fAegon a whole, good, standalone novel if you included all of his proper story), but in the context of the overall narrative we've been following for 3000 pages, it just inherently feels redundant, pointless and annoying. I remember that I quite literally rolled my eyes when he appeared in Dance. 

Aegon (in addition to Euron who is his parallel) don't work unless they're introduced after the War of 5 kings as a consequence of the world messing itself up.

 

This guy gets it:

"Aegon’s pretty vital thematically. Feigned princes are of course an IRL phenomenon, but within the context of this story in particular (as it plays out especially in the cyvasse game with Tyrion and Varys’ monologue in the epilogue to ADWD), what emerges is the Perfect Prince mythos as an in-universe trope being deployed as propaganda, in a manner designed to call attention to how this sort of narrative often works in other fantasy novels. Aegon’s basically trying to hijack the protagonist role of ASOIAF (as Euron’s trying to hijack the antagonist role), and I think his story is meant in part as a satire of audience expectations for our actual protagonists

In other words, GRRM’s saying “You want Dany to just come home already and have a stunning uninterrupted rise to victory? You want the world to know Jon as Rhaegar’s son and the cheering crowds to hail his crowning? OK, here’s that story, but it’s with a brand new character who’s a pawn of Varys in manipulating and hijacking exactly those tropes and concepts, and it’s going to end in tragedy when Dany comes to claim the protagonist role back.” It’s not a detached, pitiless critique (there’s real empathy for and dedication to the actual characters involved, especially Jon Connington), but I think it’s definitely meant to call attention to the fact that GRRM’s not telling this kind of story with Jon and Dany, encouraging us to think critically about what their stories will actually look like. 

It’s fundamentally a satire of the Chosen One narrative. Aegon’s a prefab hero designed in-universe to meet every standard on the Hero’s Journey Checklist. It’s a fantasy story within another fantasy story that won’t let it succeed, because it isn’t earned. Which it will be with Jon and Dany…which is why it annoyed me so damn much that the Season 6 finale framed Jon in pure uncut Chosen One terms even though he did so little this season to earn it. "

 

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

32 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Aegon (in addition to Euron who is his parallel) don't work unless they're introduced after the War of 5 kings as a consequence of the world messing itself up.

 

This guy gets it:

"Aegon’s pretty vital thematically. Feigned princes are of course an IRL phenomenon, but within the context of this story in particular (as it plays out especially in the cyvasse game with Tyrion and Varys’ monologue in the epilogue to ADWD), what emerges is the Perfect Prince mythos as an in-universe trope being deployed as propaganda, in a manner designed to call attention to how this sort of narrative often works in other fantasy novels. Aegon’s basically trying to hijack the protagonist role of ASOIAF (as Euron’s trying to hijack the antagonist role), and I think his story is meant in part as a satire of audience expectations for our actual protagonists

In other words, GRRM’s saying “You want Dany to just come home already and have a stunning uninterrupted rise to victory? You want the world to know Jon as Rhaegar’s son and the cheering crowds to hail his crowning? OK, here’s that story, but it’s with a brand new character who’s a pawn of Varys in manipulating and hijacking exactly those tropes and concepts, and it’s going to end in tragedy when Dany comes to claim the protagonist role back.” It’s not a detached, pitiless critique (there’s real empathy for and dedication to the actual characters involved, especially Jon Connington), but I think it’s definitely meant to call attention to the fact that GRRM’s not telling this kind of story with Jon and Dany, encouraging us to think critically about what their stories will actually look like. 

It’s fundamentally a satire of the Chosen One narrative. Aegon’s a prefab hero designed in-universe to meet every standard on the Hero’s Journey Checklist. It’s a fantasy story within another fantasy story that won’t let it succeed, because it isn’t earned. Which it will be with Jon and Dany…which is why it annoyed me so damn much that the Season 6 finale framed Jon in pure uncut Chosen One terms even though he did so little this season to earn it. "

 

None of that precludes Aegon being introduced that late, it simply wasn't necessary.

And btw, one thing is when a character shows up and another one when he's introduced. Euron was really introduced in ACOK and even most of the Kingsmoot storyline takes place during the ASOS timeline and many people argue that it wouldn't have felt out of place in that book. 

And don't tell me that Aegon was introduced from the first book because that's cheating. The Aegon introduced there is dead, and the mentions of how Gregor killed don't count as foreshadowing. There is virtually zero built up to Aegon, only a single cryptic line from the House of the Undying, and that's it. And even if GRRM wanted to keep Aegon's reveal as absolute surprise (a head-scratching decision in itself) there's no reason why he couldn't introduced any of his companions earlier, be it Jon Connington, Maester Harlon, Septa Lemore or Duck, to give the readers a familiar anchor. Jon Connington isn't even mentioned by name until AFFC, as far as I know. That's just a mistake IMHO, as characters this important need a certain build up, a certain set up and introduction. 

 

[Direwight]

I like Aegon, not because he's got an interesting personality or because I personally care much about anyone in his troupe, but because he's such a wrench in the plot machine. To me, he's the only believable opponent or rival to Dany that doesn't seem like a simple obstacle she's obviously going to overcome. People often say that he's exactly that, and in the end he'll amount to nothing like Quentyn, but I don't think so. Of course he might, but I don't have that expectation so for me he makes the late game more unpredictable, and Dany's eventual arrival and actions in Westeros more gray.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

53 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

None of that precludes Aegon being introduced that late, it simply wasn't necessary.

And btw, one thing is when a character shows up and another one when he's introduced. Euron was really introduced in ACOK and even most of the Kingsmoot storyline takes place during the ASOS timeline and many people argue that it wouldn't have felt out of place in that book. 

And don't tell me that Aegon was introduced from the first book because that's cheating. The Aegon introduced there is dead, and the mentions of how Gregor killed don't count as foreshadowing. There is virtually zero built up to Aegon, only a single cryptic line from the House of the Undying, and that's it. And even if GRRM wanted to keep Aegon's reveal as absolute surprise (a head-scratching decision in itself) there's no reason why he couldn't introduced any of his companions earlier, be it Jon Connington, Maester Harlon, Septa Lemore or Duck, to give the readers a familiar anchor. Jon Connington isn't even mentioned by name until AFFC, as far as I know. That's just a mistake IMHO, as characters this important need a certain build up, a certain set up and introduction. 

 

Jon Connington's name is mentioned in ASOS actually. 

But I don't think he had the mechanics behind Aegon figured out yet. Like I don't think Aegon was originally going to be a Blackfyre or that Jon Connington was going to have been raising. Those two elements only start getting built up in ASOS. 

Aegon's presence has been felt in the story since AGOT even before Euron though.

Like you're looking at the entirely wrong areas for build up to Aegon. Aegon's story has been built up from Varys' and Illyrio's side of the story which you are overlooking. 

To review in AGOT: 

We know that Varys is for the realm 

We know that Illyrio and Varys are allied together 

We know that Illyrio is seemingly working on a Targaryen restoration for some reason 

We know that Illyrio is contemptuous of Viserys 

We know that Viserys is a mad fool

It does not follow that Varys is looking to put Viserys on the throne over Robert. Viserys is an idiot and a lunatic. How does that serve the realm? And no, Varys wasn't looking to seat Daenerys there either as she's just a weak, little girl at that point. Furthermore Daenerys is married to Drogo. And I don't think Varys wants Drogo on the throne either. 

Varys' plans from AGOT only make sense if he has another candidate in mind.

If it helps rather than thinking of Aegon has his own storyline think of him as an extension of Varys' storyline who has been a huge player since book one. Aegon's his proxy king

(Varys and Illyrio are your anchors to Aegon)

 

 

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Jon Connington's name is mentioned in ASOS actually. 

But I don't think he had the mechanics behind Aegon figured out yet. Like I don't think Aegon was originally going to be a Blackfyre or that Jon Connington was going to have been raising. Those two elements only start getting built up in ASOS. 

Aegon's presence has been felt in the story since AGOT even before Euron though.

Like you're looking at the entirely wrong areas for build up to Aegon. Aegon's story has been built up from Varys' and Illyrio's side of the story which you are overlooking. 

To review in AGOT: 

We know that Varys is for the realm 

We know that Illyrio and Varys are allied together 

We know that Illyrio is seemingly working on a Targaryen restoration for some reason 

We know that Illyrio is contemptuous of Viserys 

We know that Viserys is a mad fool

It does not follow that Varys is looking to put Viserys on the throne over Robert. Viserys is an idiot and a lunatic. How does that serve the realm? And no, Varys wasn't looking to seat Daenerys there either as she's just a weak, little girl at that point. Furthermore Daenerys is married to Drogo. And I don't think Varys wants Drogo on the throne either. 

Varys' plans from AGOT only make sense if he has another candidate in mind.

If it helps rather than thinking of Aegon has his own storyline think of him as an extension of Varys' storyline who has been a huge player since book one. Aegon's his proxy king

(Varys and Illyrio are your anchors to Aegon)

 

 

That's not enough for me. Varys and Illyrio are not big enough parts of Aegon's story. For the most part we're stuck with Aegon, Jon Connington and the rest for the bulk of ADWD, neither of which we actually know. And Jon's bland and uninspiring POV narration does him no favors. 

Simply put, the fifth installment of a planned seven-novel series is too late to introduce the character who's poised to be the biggest game-changer. And don't give me any of that "But AFFC and ADWD are the same book" excuse because they ain't, they were published six years apart. 

Whatever intrigue Varys and Illyrio might've going on in the first book is not enough to make me invested in these Johnny Come Late characters and not enough to make their introduction look like something out of left field and like a bad soap opera twist. 

YMVV, but for me that was GRRM's mistake to wait so long to show his hand, much like Doran.