Baratheons are quite unsympathetic really

[Valens]

On 29.7.2016 at 1:23 PM, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Fairness is subjective, they fought on Rhaegar's speciality field, one that using a warhammer is extremely difficult, sure rhaegar could kill robert if bob had a sword, ON HORSEBACK... On foot rhaegar would stand close to no chance against Bob, and Aegon even less because unlike Orys (the one meant to be the warrior of the family, his shield and bodyguard) he doesn't have combat feats aside dragon riding ones, that was what he did great, riding not 1v1 personal combat, let alone fight a legendary warrior like Robert... With balerion or any other dragon he wins of course, otherwise he gets a quick fatality

Maybe so but we'll never know. Aegon never got the chance to show how good he was without Balerion while Rhaegar only proved his worth in the tourneys, but he won most of them. Robert however was extra-fueled with his anger and was very hard to beat on that particular occasion.

[John Doe]

Lyonel was honorable. Medieval families had other priorities than families today, it's not hard to see why he rebelled against Aegon "I can has dragonz" V. 

Robert has a worse reputation on these forums than he deserves. He was far from flawless, but tell me one character in asoiaf who isn't. 

I don't get the impression they are unsympathetic. Stannis is one of the most popular book characters who's not a Stark, Renly seems to be mostly disliked by Stannis fans and Robert, while not popular, is not that hated by most fans either and does have his fans. Lyonel seems to be popular despite of his rebellion. So the ones we get to see face-to-face so to speak aren't really unsympathetic. 

[John Doe]

On 28.7.2016 at 0:29 PM, Valens said:

Not necessarily, not necessarily. Aegon was also described as a big, powerful man and he was certainly good with Blackfyre, more than good. Rhaegar would have likely won the duel with Robert had Robert also used a sword instead of a warhammer. Hardly a fair match, don't you think?

Why is that likely? 

And how is it unfair? Robert has a stronger arm and can swing a heavier weapon, that only makes him a better warrior.

[Valens]

7 hours ago, John Doe said:

Why is that likely? 

And how is it unfair? Robert has a stronger arm and can swing a heavier weapon, that only makes him a better warrior.

But Rhaegar was faster and more skilled with the sword. We are talking about how the duel would go if they both had a sword. Keep up or keep out.

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Valens said:

But Rhaegar was faster and more skilled with the sword. 

Source?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

2 hours ago, Valens said:

But Rhaegar was faster and more skilled with the sword. We are talking about how the duel would go if they both had a sword. Keep up or keep out.

On horseback valens, don't forget that... a wounded Robert with a sword on foot killed Myles Mooton and 6 more and almost killed Jon Con who killed Denys Arryn (one of the best in all the Vale) and wounded Hoster Tully...

Rhaegar's chance against Robert was precisely on horseback (wich says he's not dumb) since he proved himself to be an exceptional jouster wich is the best platform to train horseback point and evade strikes... hence wounding Bob in a horse

On foot, even with a hunting knife i would favour Prime Bob... but let's not go far from the topic, Baratheons are unsympathetic or not? NO imo

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

On horseback valens, don't forget that... a wounded Robert with a sword on foot killed Myles Mooton and 6 more and almost killed Jon

There's also that quote 

Quote

Bells and battle followed, and Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand, and almost slew Jon on the steps of the old sept that gave the town its name.

So he definitely has more feats even with a sword than Rhaegar. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

4 hours ago, Valens said:

But Rhaegar was faster and more skilled with the sword. We are talking about how the duel would go if they both had a sword. Keep up or keep out.

This thread is about whether or not Baratheons are sympathetic characters...

Rhaegar doesn't have as much street cred as Robert Baratheon. That being said, I do think a bit of hero worship goes on when it comes to Robert. I think it was a good fight between the 2 men. Rhaegar did wound Robert during the fight, but ultimately Robert prevailed. He was a much better fighter.

Regarding the main topic... It's hard for me to take the question seriously. Robert and Stannis are so easy to be sympathetic towards, Robert most of all.

[Valens]

54 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

This thread is about whether or not Baratheons are sympathetic characters...

Rhaegar doesn't have as much street cred as Robert Baratheon. That being said, I do think a bit of hero worship goes on when it comes to Robert. I think it was a good fight between the 2 men. Rhaegar did wound Robert during the fight, but ultimately Robert prevailed. He was a much better fighter.

Regarding the main topic... It's hard for me to take the question seriously. Robert and Stannis are so easy to be sympathetic towards, Robert most of all.

A much better fighter? No. Just stronger. And more pissed.

[Valens]

4 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

On horseback valens, don't forget that... a wounded Robert with a sword on foot killed Myles Mooton and 6 more and almost killed Jon Con who killed Denys Arryn (one of the best in all the Vale) and wounded Hoster Tully...

Rhaegar's chance against Robert was precisely on horseback (wich says he's not dumb) since he proved himself to be an exceptional jouster wich is the best platform to train horseback point and evade strikes... hence wounding Bob in a horse

On foot, even with a hunting knife i would favour Prime Bob... but let's not go far from the topic, Baratheons are unsympathetic or not? NO imo

How did he almost kill Jon Con when they never met on the battlefield? Lol...Jon was up for the fight, no doubt, but it didn't happen.

Anyway, allow me to further explore my theory of what would have happened had Robert not killed Rhaegar and had lost that battle and the rebellion. Rhaegar would have his father removed or even wouldn't have to cos Jaimie had already slain him before the battle ended, right? Since Tywin also liked Rhaegar and wanted him as the king, Rhaegar would become the king with his blessing and name Tywin his Hand. But this time the Lannister influence would not be so big, because Rhaegar already had a wife and a notable mistress too, shall we call her, so no way could he ever say yes to marrying Cersei the Bitch. Robert had to because he didn't have the inbuilt ruling system of the Targaryens, he needed all the help he could get from the strongest houses. Maybe Jon Con would be the Hand and Tywin the master of coins...that sounds even more apropriate. This way, there would be no slaughter of Eliah and her children, no grudge that would make Oberyn pay with his life among other things, none of that nonsense. Plus, with the Martells still retaining their influence, the Lannisters would also not be as strong. In other words-an ideal kingdom. Rhaegar would have surely made the peace with the North and the Starks because he knew what they had suffered from his father. He would not have persecuted the Arryns either because Jon only did what he himself would have done. Robert, if he wouldn't be killed, then he'd be exiled or on The Wall most likely or executed. So you see...Robert is the "unrest factor" here and thats why I don't like him. He spoiled what could have been a much better kingdom and a much better king.

Of course, the Mad KIng's actions brought almost unreparable damage but I am sure negotiations would be possible, WITHOUT Robert there. Ned and Jon would be willing to accept compensations and could have gotten more autonomy for their respective kingdoms even. But Robert had to interfere "Here I come with my bloodline and my boyish grudge and my warhammer!"

[sweetsunray]

On 24-7-2016 at 11:18 PM, Valens said:

Orys must be the best Baratheon of all. He showed compassion for the house he defeated, Durrandon and even adopted their sigil and married the Storm King Arrec's daughter.

Hmmm, actually I disagree with Orys being "compassionate". Orys killed her father and army, marries her and instead of adopting her higher born name Durrandon, he makes it Baratheon. I call it usurpation through marriage. It's the same as Tyrion-Sansa and Tyrion hoping he'll get WF for it and make it Lord Lannister of WF.

It wasn't uncommon for the daughters of the lord and petty kings who lost to end up being married to the son of or the male victor, but wiping out the House name that way is a rarity, especially if the lady in question is higher born.

Of course, it doesn't make Orys a villainous rapist, but "not raping" seems to often lead to the interpretation "Oh, swell guy!" Euhm WUT?

[Valens]

5 hours ago, John Doe said:

Source?

It is common sense. Robert was a huge bull of a man who must have weighed at least 245 pounds in his prime while Rhaegar was not described as such, so he was much lighter most likely. Probably not more than 180, 190 at most. And he was the best jouster in the seven kingdoms, more or less. Do the math.

[BricksAndSparrows]

56 minutes ago, Valens said:

A much better fighter? No. Just stronger. And more pissed.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

Can you give some examples? I'm totally open to the idea of Rhaegar being better, but there would need to be some proof. The biggest thing that Rhaegar has going against him is the fact that he lost the fight. But obviously people can have off days, so I'm still open to the idea...but overall, Robert has got a lot of victories under his belt. On the other hand, Rhaegar doesn't have as many known victories.

What makes you say Rhaegar is a better fighter?

Quote

How did he almost kill Jon Con when they never met on the battlefield? Lol...Jon was up for the fight, no doubt, but it didn't happen.

They met at the battle of the bells.

[WSmith84]

14 minutes ago, Valens said:

It is common sense. Robert was a huge bull of a man who must have weighed at least 245 pounds in his prime while Rhaegar was not described as such, so he was much lighter most likely. Probably not more than 180, 190 at most. And he was the best jouster in the seven kingdoms, more or less. Do the math.

Being the best jouster has little to do with skill with a sword. In George's world, at least, jousting is mostly horsemanship. It's impossible to judge sword skill based on jousting skill. Now, Barristan describes Rhaegar as 'puissant' and I take him at his word here (despite taking most of his assessments of Targaryens with a pinch of salt) because his assessment of warriors seems pretty unbiased. Also, Robert being large doesn't mean diddly-squat about his sword skill.

I'd say Rhaegar was probably better with a sword, but at the end of the day, who cares? Rhaegar lost his first battle, his first real fight, despite superior numbers and seems to have largely failed at whatever he was trying to achieve. Robert won battle after battle, fight after fight, but was largely a shit king because he couldn't be arsed to put in the necessary effort. And no, I don't buy that Robert wasn't suited for it; Robert had the potential to be a great king, he just squandered that potential.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, Valens said:

Of course, the Mad KIng's actions brought almost unreparable damage but I am sure negotiations would be possible, WITHOUT Robert there. Ned and Jon would be willing to accept compensations and could have gotten more autonomy for their respective kingdoms even. But Robert had to interfere "Here I come with my bloodline and my boyish grudge and my warhammer!"

Your post could have been summarised as: Rhaegar was such a swell guy who would have brought sunshine and puppies to the 7K, while Robert was just an idiot who should have accepted the kidnapping of his fiancee and the brutal death of his best friend's father and brother. 

GRRM's characters are extremely complex, and I think it is unfair to characterise one as a dumb villain while vaunt the other as some great hero who died before his time. Especially when we have nothing but second-hand accounts of the events and characters in question.

The Laughing Storm also making a big deal of the broken betrothal is entirely justified. In the Westerosi society, alliances for political purposes is the norm for the nobility. It's not a simple engagement, more like a business deal which you can't just renege on because you're a Crown Prince.

 No one house is entirely unsympathetic, even the Freys had Olyvar and Roslin.

[WSmith84]

6 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Your post could have been summarised as: Rhaegar was such a swell guy who would have brought sunshine and puppies to the 7K, while Robert was just an idiot who should have accepted the kidnapping of his fiancee and the brutal death of his best friend's father and brother.

Not to mention Aerys demanding that Robert die when no crime had been committed.

Also, we never hear of any peace offering from Rhaegar (not that I believe he was necessarily in the position to offer one). The rebels were winning the war and had no reason to believe that Aerys would prove merciful, and plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. The loyalists had to be the ones offering peace there.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

15 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Not to mention Aerys demanding that Robert die when no crime had been committed.

Also, we never hear of any peace offering from Rhaegar (not that I believe he was necessarily in the position to offer one). The rebels were winning the war and had no reason to believe that Aerys would prove merciful, and plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. The loyalists had to be the ones offering peace there.

Precisely. Rhaegar could not have made any kind of peace offering, unless he turned against his own father. When he emerged from the TOJ, the S.T.A.B alliance was in full swing, the Lannisters were clearly not interested in moving against the rebels, since he had to convince his father to ask them for help. Dorne wouldn't have been on his side either (probably that's why he agreed to Elia and his kids being hostages in the Red Keep while Vis and Rhaella went to Dragonstone.) It was very close to the point of no return.

[BricksAndSparrows]

Almost feel like we're getting trolled here...

Just to add some perspective here, Rhaegar was probably looking for another woman on the grounds that Elia was too week to have another baby (a 3rd head for his prophetic dragon.)

If you you find Baratheons unsympathetic, the fault does not lie with the author or characters...

All though... I would say that it is a perfectly reasonable argument to say that the 7K would have been better off had Robert lost. Good men would have died, Eddard and Jon Arryn...but they died anyway.

Interesting idea to think about.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

13 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Almost feel like we're getting trolled here...

Just to add some perspective here, Rhaegar was probably looking for another woman on the grounds that Elia was too week to have another baby (a 3rd head for his prophetic dragon.)

If you you find Baratheons unsympathetic, the fault does not lie with the author or characters...

All though... I would say that it is a perfectly reasonable argument to say that the 7K would have been better off had Robert lost. Good men would have died, Eddard and Jon Arryn...but they died anyway.

Interesting idea to think about.

I'd agree and disagree

Baratheons being unsympathetic ---> Personal opinion, not a fact. 

7K would be better off if Robert lost ---> Again personal opinion, not an factually based argument.

We can speculate about the state of the 7 Kingdoms if Robert lost, for sure, but we cannot assume that they definitely would have been better off.

[BricksAndSparrows]

18 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I'd agree and disagree

Baratheons being unsympathetic ---> Personal opinion, not a fact. 

7K would be better off if Robert lost ---> Again personal opinion, not an factually based argument.

We can speculate about the state of the 7 Kingdoms if Robert lost, for sure, but we cannot assume that they definitely would have been better off.

In that case we completely agree. I never said it would definitely be better. Just that it was a valid argument and interesting to consider.