Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 3 hours ago, Valens said: Saving the world from a mad king was not his number one priority and you KNOW that. So please, don't sugarcoat it. It was Lyanna which was the main reason for his participation in the rebellion, everyone knows that by now. And second, Robert didn't start the rebellion, Jon Arryn did, formally, when he disobeyed Aerys' command to bring him Robert and Ned. Aegon turned Westeros into a more united and more efficient place than it was when he got there, or before he got there. That NOBODY can dispute. What happened after he died he cannot be held responsible for, naturally. But he was a superb ruler. He used dragons because it was the most efficient thing to do and it shortened all those wars/battles. Otherwise it all would have lasted much longer and cost even more lives, probably. Disagree, when Lyanna was taken it was Brandon that showed up in KL raisin some hell, not Robert. I'm sure he didn't take it too well and we know that he harps on it enough later, but I'm pretty damn sure that both Robert and Ned's main motivation was pretty simple. Not getting murdered. Like what had just happened to Ned's brother and Father. Aerys essentially put a hit out on them both after that went down and it was ride or die for the both of them from there on out. They knew that they had to remove a 'mad king' to have a chance, but I don't pretend that they were all that concerned about their fellow man or the good of the realm at that point. They were more worried about their own lives and the very continuance of their houses, and were more than ready to call on the power of their houses and their bannermen to preserve their lives and houses. Aerys essentially turned 3 of the seven kingdoms against him in one foolish move when he called for their heads. EPIC TARGARYEN FAIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Valens said: You are in it NOW. And...I don't really give a damn about all that. Robert never conquered Dorne either, nobody did, at least not for good. So, you say you don't like Robert but you STILL insist he did the conquering better than Aegon-thats preposterous! I am neither an Aegon fanboy or a Dany/Jon fanboy, I just think Robert is a pig. He wasn't always a pig perhaps, but for most of his life he was. Robert is a pig, but he was also damn good at conquering shit. They aren't mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: No she isn't the council of 101 has said so. Well putting aside the fact that the council of 101 is not codified law in any way shape or form you do realize that the same council disqualified Robert as well? And I am sorry but anyone who thinks that a Targaryen King is going to pass over his Targaryen daughter to name someone from another house as his heir is crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, El Guapo said: Well putting aside the fact that the council of 101 is not codified law in any way shape or form you do realize that the same council disqualified Robert as well? And I am sorry but anyone who thinks that a Targaryen King is going to pass over his Targaryen daughter to name someone from another house as his heir is crazy. It doesn't matter, the fact that Robert has Targaryen blood, probably just makes him less fit to rule in my eyes. He initially had the support of 4 out of 7 kingdoms with an additional kingdom joining his side toward the end. The rest of the kingdoms, or at least their forces, were defeated and conquered. He doesn't need a bloodline to rule, he did it anyway. Albeit with a generous amount of unknowing support from the absolute ineptitude of Aerys. He has as much or more right to rule than Aegon ever did, and he did it with the support of 4 kingdoms before the first battle had even been fought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said: Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, 'my favorite conqueror is better than your favorite conqueror'. Robert took the Iron Throne by right of conquest, and at the end of the day he had all of Westeros, with the Reach and Dorne bending the knee at sword point, and everyone else of thier own volition. He was "better" than Aegon because he had no dragons and Aegon tried with dragons and with the full might of a united Westeros to get Dorne to bend the knee and he failed. This is stating a fact, not fanboyism. If you honestly prefer to stick to that single line over the rest of the post destroying the claim that Robert was just a usurper and had no right to claim Right of Conquest exactly like Aegon did, but with actual legitimacy on his side, then you are just Cherry Picking to avoid facing the argument. Good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 5 minutes ago, Nyrhex said: Robert took the Iron Throne by right of conquest, and at the end of the day he had all of Westeros, with the Reach and Dorne bending the knee at sword point, and everyone else of thier own volition. He was "better" than Aegon because he had no dragons and Aegon tried with dragons and with the full might of a united Westeros to get Dorne to bend the knee and he failed. This is stating a fact, not fanboyism. If you honestly prefer to stick to that single line over the rest of the post destroying the claim that Robert was just a usurper and had no right to claim Right of Conquest exactly like Aegon did, but with actual legitimacy on his side, then you are just Cherry Picking to avoid facing the argument. Good day. Actually, he didn't. Aegon conquered all the lands in Westeros except Dorne. Robert had an alliance, he didn't win the Vale, Riverlands or the North, so so are me your cherry-picked gobbledygook.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 7 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said: Proof that George wants you (the reader) to form your own interpretation of grey characters like Robert.. Did i say the contrary? yes he creates gray characters (like Robert, like dany, like tyrion) but can he say Robert was a good guy? yes he can, as he says ned was an honorable guy and gregor a mad dog... he´s not calling them angels or demons, like i never said Bob was holy good like Tommen or Baelor... Sure you don´t like him, so what? george can still say he's good... you're a good guy but there are aspects of you that make other people dislike you, or everyone loves you or me? no... grrm said bob was a good guy in some ways, and said he had great, careless generosity in 2 personal interviews, not in the books (that's all i'm pointing out, i follow his thinking outside the books)... it's not meant to be a riddle, if he says Ned was kind and honourable in an interview it's not a trap, traps are for the books not for character analisys we know well from 10+ years in personal interviews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Valens said: Haha, exactly. And one more thing: Robert had three armies with him, Aegon just those 1600 men and three dragons. I rest my case. you truly rest your case Valens, you do know dragons in asoiaf can clean armies to ash... only a lucky shot fired once in dorne or another dragon are historically dragon-killing scenarios... Balerion could burn the entire rebel army on the trident with no help from the other 2... Are we comparing Aegon to Robert why? on what grounds? Aegon was great, i'm a fan of his character story and design but he would need balerion to prevent Robert from shoving blackfyre up his.... sorry wrong forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 17 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: Did i say the contrary? yes he creates gray characters (like Robert, like dany, like tyrion) but can he say Robert was a good guy? yes he can, as he says ned was an honorable guy and gregor a mad dog... he´s not calling them angels or demons, like i never said Bob was holy good like Tommen or Baelor... Sure you don´t like him, so what? george can still say he's good... you're a good guy but there are aspects of you that make other people dislike you, or everyone loves you or me? no... grrm said bob was a good guy in some ways, and said he had great, careless generosity in 2 personal interviews, not in the books (that's all i'm pointing out, i follow his thinking outside the books)... it's not meant to be a riddle, if he says Ned was kind and honourable in an interview it's not a trap, traps are for the books not for character analisys we know well from 10+ years in personal interviews So what is exactly what I'm saying, he never speaks poorly of characters like the fan base. You wanna put some 'good guy' comment he made on a pedestal to feel some nonsensical validation be my guest.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said: So what is exactly what I'm saying, he never speaks poorly of characters like the fan base. You wanna put some 'good guy' comment he made on a pedestal to feel some obscure validation be my guest.. i never disputed he intends to write characters portraying conflict within their human hearts (he says this a ton of times) sure i take grrm's words as closest to a pedestral as it gets regarding his own work, he's not on riddle-mode in the interview, he´s describing a character on his featurette saying he´s good... what you're saying is that bob is not good, he is gray like the characters grrm likes to write. so is ned as gray as Gregor? because if grrm can´t say a guy is good, kind or violent we can consider everyone in the same shade of gray... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Just now, Laughing Storm Reborn said: i never disputed he intends to write characters portraying conflict within their human hearts (he says this a ton of times) sure i take grrm's words as closest to a pedestral as it gets regarding his own work, he's not on riddle-mode in the interview, he´s describing a character on his featurette saying he´s good... what you're saying is that bob is not good, he is gray like the characters grrm likes to write. so is ned as gray as Gregor? because if grrm can´t say a guy is good, kind or violent we can consider everyone in the same shade of gray... Hey I total dismiss the usurper talk & will give him credit where it deserved. He & Stannis are both grey characters, unlike Gregor who is one of the few purely evil characters in the story. What I'm saying is when I read his character from the first time he spoke about Lyanna I fidnt like him. And the more I learned the less I liked him. I think you're dismissing that I found him putting a bright spin on Dothraki, I fail to see why it needs to be mentioned since the same can be said for just about every notable 'grey' character in the books.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Guys don't feed the troll! You will get nothing rather than waste your time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 hour ago, El Guapo said: Well putting aside the fact that the council of 101 is not codified law in any way shape or form you do realize that the same council disqualified Robert as well? And I am sorry but anyone who thinks that a Targaryen King is going to pass over his Targaryen daughter to name someone from another house as his heir is crazy. Councils are what makes a law, which it seems that rule out Dany. So what if disqualifies Robert? He became the king because he conquered the Throne and he was young, handsome and charismatic not because of who his grandmother was, that was an excuse to ease the Targs loyalists. After all who would had chosed Mad King's daughter? Let's not forget how Maeglor was removed because his prince father was mad. Who would had chose the daughter of the man that started a war and was an insane tyrant? No one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Councils are what makes a law, which it seems that rule out Dany. So what if disqualifies Robert? He became the king because he conquered the Throne and he was young, handsome and charismatic not because of who his grandmother was, that was an excuse to ease the Targs loyalists. After all who would had chosed Mad King's daughter? Let's not forget how Maeglor was removed because his prince father was mad. Who would had chose the daughter of the man that started a war and was an insane tyrant? No one. There would be plenty of men who would think they could marry her or have their son marry her and rule through her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said: I find Tommen to be pretty sympathetic. Good-natured kid pulled every direction like a chew toy between a few dogs. If Grandad was around for a bit longer Tom might have learned the skills that he needs, but as it stands he's going to get screwed when life attacks. Edit: I know that he's a bastardo abomination. Seeing as he was raised a Baratheon under Bobby B and I don't recall him knowing his true parentage, I lump him into the family. Saying he was raised by Robert is a stretch, he ignored his children almost entirely, Tommen is the way he is despite his two parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Martell Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Khal BlackfyreO said: Disagree, when Lyanna was taken it was Brandon that showed up in KL raisin some hell, not Robert. I'm sure he didn't take it too well and we know that he harps on it enough later, but I'm pretty damn sure that both Robert and Ned's main motivation was pretty simple. Not getting murdered. I think this is missing entirely the point on who Robert was. I think their survival was super important, but I truly believe it was Lyanna's "capture" that made Robert go mad with fury. Clearly it was the main reason. If there is one thing I'll never take out of Robert it was his love for Lyanna (or his idea of Lyanna). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 6 hours ago, Anton Martell said: I think this is missing entirely the point on who Robert was. I think their survival was super important, but I truly believe it was Lyanna's "capture" that made Robert go mad with fury. Clearly it was the main reason. If there is one thing I'll never take out of Robert it was his love for Lyanna (or his idea of Lyanna). Nobody even knew where she was...I think self preservation always rates higher than, 'I gotta find that hot chick.' Obviously he did idealize her somewhat, and more power to him for wanting to be with a woman like Lyanna, but I just think other things came first. He was unable to do anything for her really, they both had to look after themselves and then, go looking for Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonking1381 Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Yea I always found them to just be huge assholes, really the only one I like is stannis even though he pretty much a giant dick to everyone around him. But goddamn I respect stannis the mannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valens Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 10 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: you truly rest your case Valens, you do know dragons in asoiaf can clean armies to ash... only a lucky shot fired once in dorne or another dragon are historically dragon-killing scenarios... Balerion could burn the entire rebel army on the trident with no help from the other 2... Are we comparing Aegon to Robert why? on what grounds? Aegon was great, i'm a fan of his character story and design but he would need balerion to prevent Robert from shoving blackfyre up his.... sorry wrong forum Not necessarily, not necessarily. Aegon was also described as a big, powerful man and he was certainly good with Blackfyre, more than good. Rhaegar would have likely won the duel with Robert had Robert also used a sword instead of a warhammer. Hardly a fair match, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valens Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 12 hours ago, Khal BlackfyreO said: Where on earth in that post does it say Robert was better than Aegon? It simply states the facts around the definition of conqueror and usurper and compares their two cases. The argument could be made that Aegon was better because he still triumphed with so little support. And the support Aegon did have was only a few houses in the crownlands. The support in the Riverlands and from the Greyjoy's was just basically, because dragons. I'm pretty sure I'd support somebody who had a dragon pointed at me too, though I wouldn't count that as real and true 'support' however. It does, it does. He said that Robert didn't have dragons, like Aegon and implied that Aegon's conquest was EASIER. That may have been so, but Robert as I said was NOT ALONE and Ned and Jon had just as much to do in that rebellion as Robert! Plus, my main point was-Aegon was a much better ruler than Robert. And that, I am sure, NOBODY can contest. I'd sure like to see somebody try! Cool nickname by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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