Heresy 190

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Wow.  I'll say.  I started to note the obvious parallels but there is so much of it; it was getting in way of just reading.  The harlequin Russian with his strange glamor a parallel to Leaf.    Please explain the 'pilgrims' to me.

The pilgrims; in Heart of Darkness are those such as Littlefinger, engaged in their jockeying for power and above all wealth while oblivious and uncaring as to what's really going on around them, and the ultimate consequences of their actions

[Black Crow]

As to the Russian/Harlequin, we're not looking at Leaf, but at Coldhands. Leaf is the priestess.

And who did the Russian say was really responsible for the ambush outside the Inner Station?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the Russian/Harlequin, we're not looking at Leaf, but at Coldhands. Leaf is the priestess.

And who did the Russian say was really responsible for the ambush outside the Inner Station?

I am not getting CH from this description:

"His aspect reminded me of something I had seen—something funny I had seen somewhere. As I manoeuvred to get alongside, I was asking myself, 'What does this fellow look like?' Suddenly I got it. He looked like a harlequin. His clothes had been made of some stuff that was brown holland probably, but it was covered with patches all over, with bright patches, blue, red, and yellow—patches on the back, patches on the front, patches on elbows, on knees; coloured binding around his jacket, scarlet edging at the bottom of his trousers; and the sunshine made him look extremely gay and wonderfully neat withal, because you could see how beautifully all this patching had been done. A beardless, boyish face, very fair, no features to speak of, nose peeling, little blue eyes, smiles and frowns chasing each other over that open countenance like sunshine and shadow on a wind-swept plain.

Beside the beardless, boyish face; the patched appearance reminds me of Leaf's dappled skin.  Also the Russian appears after the fight beckonging  Marlowe to meet Kurtz..  He also tells Marlowe that as a boy he left Russia and went out into the world.  That he also says the attackers were harmless or didn't mean any harm makes him mighty suspicious in the same sense that the cotf are suspicious of keeping the wights around the cave entrance.

Finally there are  references to glamour something that I would associate with the cotf:

The glamour of youth enveloped his parti-coloured rags, his destitution, his loneliness, the essential desolation of his futile wanderings.

I associate CH with the ships steersman; a big man piloting a broken ship and his teeth are filed as well. 

The pilgrimage to the Inner Station is interesting with it's dream-like state overhearing conversation from above; snatches of whisperings from the manager:

'I am as harmless as a little child, but I don't like to be dictated to. Am I the manager—or am I not? I was ordered to send him there. It's incredible.”

 

'It is unpleasant,' grunted the uncle. 'He has asked the Administration to be sent there,' said the other, 'with the idea of showing what he could do; and I was instructed accordingly. Look at the influence that man must have. Is it not frightful?

There is tons of this stuff.

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

Like Coldhands, the Russian is the guide who speaks of his admiration for Kurtz/Bloodraven and is caught in his spell, but yet ultimately independent of him.

 

What may be significant is that in Conrad’s version, the Russian tells Marlow that it was Kurtz himself who had ordered the attack on the steamer!

[Black Crow]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is tons of this stuff.

Oh yes indeed, and, defending my advice by reminding you the story is a short novella, I can thoroughly recommend reading it again [and again?] to draw out the "stuff". 

 

[LynnS]

Have you seen GRRM editor's comments at the end of Suicide Kings

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Have you seen GRRM editor's comments at the end of Suicide Kings

 

I hadn't, and thank you for pointing it out, but they very neatly wrap up two related themes which I've discussed before; first the connections between Heart of Darkness and this present happy tale of ordinary country-folk, and also the business of child soldiers, which he has talked about elsewhere:

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child soldier is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

http://observationde...rview-886117845

I've argued that whilst it's certainly not confined to them, the business of child soldiers can also be seen in Craster's sons and the scragging of Ser Waymar.

 

[Black Crow]

Is Bran a "dangerous" child soldier?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Is Bran a "dangerous" child soldier?

i'm reminded of Tyrion's comment about cripples, bastards and broken things: Bran, Jon and Arya.   You could characterize all three as child soldiers; but Arya defines that the most clearly for me.  Beginning with the death of her father; she is isolated, continually brutalized and broken down until she reaches the House of Black and White; prepared along the road for the final indoctrination.  

[Tucu]

I just noticed this line in Jamie's weirwood stump dream in ASoS just before Brienne appears in the dream:

The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

Weird idea to be afraid of water that is only ankle deep. Then in AFFC GRRM introduces the tales of the squishers of Cracklaw Point and in the world book he tells us of the Deep Ones of the Iron Isles, the creatures from the sea in Lorath and the feared fish-headed gods of the Thousand Islands. And of course we have Patchface that according to the fisher folk gave his seed to a mermaid (not alike the Night's King and his corpse queen).

Where do you think GRRM is going with all these water creature references? Is he slowly introducing a new race to the story like he did with the CoTF, and giants? Or this is just foreshadowing of the danger that is coming form the sea (either in the form of invaders or maybe hits from the Hammer of the Waters)?

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

i'm reminded of Tyrion's comment about cripples, bastards and broken things: Bran, Jon and Arya.   You could characterize all three as child soldiers; but Arya defines that the most clearly for me.  Beginning with the death of her father; she is isolated, continually brutalized and broken down until she reaches the House of Black and White; prepared along the road for the final indoctrination.  

Oh there's no doubting that all of the children of Winterfell are child soldiers. Arya certainly is exhibiting the classic spiral of destruction, rather the point I was making is that rather than the saviour of all mankind who will learn how to defeat the Others, sweet innocent Bran is also a child soldier being manipulated, twisted and used just as surely as Craster's sons.

[Black Crow]

34 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I just noticed this line in Jamie's weirwood stump dream in ASoS just before Brienne appears in the dream:

The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

Weird idea to be afraid of water that is only ankle deep. Then in AFFC GRRM introduces the tales of the squishers of Cracklaw Point and in the world book he tells us of the Deep Ones of the Iron Isles, the creatures from the sea in Lorath and the feared fish-headed gods of the Thousand Islands. And of course we have Patchface that according to the fisher folk gave his seed to a mermaid (not alike the Night's King and his corpse queen).

Where do you think GRRM is going with all these water creature references? Is he slowly introducing a new race to the story like he did with the CoTF, and giants? Or this is just foreshadowing of the danger that is coming form the sea (either in the form of invaders or maybe hits from the Hammer of the Waters)?

I'd be reluctant to see another race introduced into the equation, especially given the existing prominence and mystery of the Others. Instead I'd be inclined to see the water as analogous to the darkness, its feared simply because you can't see what's in there. There may be something in there of course but I think its more of a primal fear of what may be there rather than what is there.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Oh there's no doubting that all of the children of Winterfell are child soldiers. Arya certainly is exhibiting the classic spiral of destruction, rather the point I was making is that rather than the saviour of all mankind who will learn how to defeat the Others, sweet innocent Bran is also a child soldier being manipulated, twisted and used just as surely as Craster's sons.

Geez, it seems inconceivable and one hope's like hell that they don't because right now we're so emotionally invested in them; we don't want it to get worse that it is right now.  But this is exactly what happens to child soldiers and if GRRM is making a point about it; I can see all three going down some dark paths.  Manipulated and used to be sure.  What power or wisdom Bran will exercise remains to be seen; but I suspect it includes the WW and the wights as well as Jon. In the end; child soldiers can sometimes reclaim themselves.

War Dance

[Black Crow]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Geez, it seems inconceivable and one hope's like hell that they don't because right now we're so emotionally invested in them; we don't want it to get worse that it is right now.  But this is exactly what happens to child soldiers and if GRRM is making a point about it; I can see all three going down some dark paths.  Manipulated and used to be sure.  What power or wisdom Bran will exercise remains to be seen; but I suspect it includes the WW and the wights as well as Jon. In the end; child soldiers can sometimes reclaim themselves.

War Dance

They can, and ultimately I think they will, but I reckon there's a lot of pain still to come before that bittersweet ending.

[Frey family reunion]

I'd argue that Patchface is the better analog to the Russian, especially if Patchface's "conversation" with the White Raven, was actually a conversation with Bloodraven.

[Black Crow]

58 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'd argue that Patchface is the better analog to the Russian, especially if Patchface's "conversation" with the White Raven, was actually a conversation with Bloodraven.

I think that Patchface is indeed a harlequin and probably was inspired by Conrad's one, especially in his seemingly whimsical nature teetering on the edge of madness, but in the Heart of Darkness the Russian plays the role taken by Coldhands in GRRM's version.

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

I just noticed this line in Jamie's weirwood stump dream in ASoS just before Brienne appears in the dream:

The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

Weird idea to be afraid of water that is only ankle deep. Then in AFFC GRRM introduces the tales of the squishers of Cracklaw Point and in the world book he tells us of the Deep Ones of the Iron Isles, the creatures from the sea in Lorath and the feared fish-headed gods of the Thousand Islands. And of course we have Patchface that according to the fisher folk gave his seed to a mermaid (not alike the Night's King and his corpse queen).

Where do you think GRRM is going with all these water creature references? Is he slowly introducing a new race to the story like he did with the CoTF, and giants? Or this is just foreshadowing of the danger that is coming form the sea (either in the form of invaders or maybe hits from the Hammer of the Waters)?

I'd be more inclined to think these are references to the Drowned God, Euron, and the Greyjoy invasion to come.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'd be more inclined to think these are references to the Drowned God, Euron, and the Greyjoy invasion to come.

In all honesty I have to say that's a bit of a stretch from Jaime's leaky boots.

[Frundsberg]

14 hours ago, Tucu said:

I just noticed this line in Jamie's weirwood stump dream in ASoS just before Brienne appears in the dream:

The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

Weird idea to be afraid of water that is only ankle deep. Then in AFFC GRRM introduces the tales of the squishers of Cracklaw Point and in the world book he tells us of the Deep Ones of the Iron Isles, the creatures from the sea in Lorath and the feared fish-headed gods of the Thousand Islands. And of course we have Patchface that according to the fisher folk gave his seed to a mermaid (not alike the Night's King and his corpse queen).

Where do you think GRRM is going with all these water creature references? Is he slowly introducing a new race to the story like he did with the CoTF, and giants? Or this is just foreshadowing of the danger that is coming form the sea (either in the form of invaders or maybe hits from the Hammer of the Waters)?

I think that this a hommage to H.P. Lovecraft, there are several hints to Lovecrafts Mythos in ASOIAF.

But I don't Think that he really plans to turn his story into a Mythos story.

 

Oh, and hi Heretics, first post, long time watcher

[Tucu]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd be reluctant to see another race introduced into the equation, especially given the existing prominence and mystery of the Others. Instead I'd be inclined to see the water as analogous to the darkness, its feared simply because you can't see what's in there. There may be something in there of course but I think its more of a primal fear of what may be there rather than what is there.

It might also be a reference to the underground rivers/lakes under the CoTF children caves (the cave Arianne visits also has those blind fishes)

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'd be more inclined to think these are references to the Drowned God, Euron, and the Greyjoy invasion to come.

That is a possibility; I included the Iron Born in the invaders from the sea (together with Aegon and Dany's armies)

2 hours ago, Frundsberg said:

I think that this a hommage to H.P. Lovecraft, there are several hints to Lovecrafts Mythos in ASOIAF.

But I don't Think that he really plans to turn his story into a Mythos story.

 

Oh, and hi Heretics, first post, long time watcher

These are references to lovecraftian horror but I wonder if the mythology of the Ironborn and other coastal areas will integrate into the story in a similar way that Valyrian and First Men mythology does.