Black Crow Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said: I won't say he was trying to remove it,but i think he was trying to keep Bran from flying to high or too much.His tone "i've noticed" gives me the impression that the master didn't want the student eclipsing him and he gave Bran what my mom would call "a spiritual blow" This kind of thing would happen when someone was jealous or worried that their position or power was going to be stolen by another. Interesting,based on the line where Bran was asking the crow what he was doing and we get this: "The crow opened its beak ,and cawed at him,a shrill scream of fear and the grey mist shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil he saw the crow was really a woman,a serving woman...." I still disagree. I think all of this is just part of Bran being woken by the serving woman, just as Ned thinks his sister is calling him when Vayon Poole wakes him from his fever dream. The serving girl wasn't deliberately waking Bran and may have screamed because he was thrashing about, perhaps flapping his arms as if flying, but it was she who screamed in fear, not the crow - although the latter may well have expressed frustration as the link was broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 13 hours ago, Black Crow said: I still disagree. I think all of this is just part of Bran being woken by the serving woman, just as Ned thinks his sister is calling him when Vayon Poole wakes him from his fever dream. The serving girl wasn't deliberately waking Bran and may have screamed because he was thrashing about, perhaps flapping his arms as if flying, but it was she who screamed in fear, not the crow - although the latter may well have expressed frustration as the link was broken. For some reason, I associate the serving woman overlapping with the crow as the Morrigan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 28 minutes ago, LynnS said: For some reason, I associate the serving woman overlapping with the crow as the Morrigan. Perfectly understandable, but yet she is real and behaves like a serving woman. I suppose you could argue for her being the Morrigan making her escape in the guise of a serving woman, but I don't think GRRM was going in that deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: Perfectly understandable, but yet she is real and behaves like a serving woman. I suppose you could argue for her being the Morrigan making her escape in the guise of a serving woman, but I don't think GRRM was going in that deep. I don't know. I thought it was the Morrigan making her escape in the guise of a crow. Yep, probably not going that deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 @wolfmaid7 I understand why you question whether Bloodraven=three-eyed crow. Previously, I had assumed they were equivalent, but I can appreciate the ambiguity now that several of you have drawn it to my attention. I'll have to think further on this, before I can give you a compelling opinion on the matter! That said, I have a few points/queries to add, using the following passage, Bloodraven and Bran's first meeting 'in the flesh': Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran II His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through. "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. "A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." Bran asks a straightforward question -- 'are you the three-eyed crow?' -- to which GRRM knows the audience would like a clear yes-or-no answer. After all, finding this elusive figure is what this whole quest has been about; Bran even asks Sam if he's the three-eyed crow! In response to this simple question, predictably Bloodraven gives a cryptic answer. I say 'predictable' because Bran has a history of asking direct questions, to which his enigmatic mentors like Nan, the three-eyed-crow, Jojen, Meera, Leaf, Bloodraven and Hodor all give equivocal, perhaps even evasive answers! The only mentor who is prepared to answer directly is Maester Luwin, but that doesn't help Bran or us further because he dismisses the non-material, 'magical' realm entirely. While it's true that Bloodraven refrains from confirming that he is the three-eyed crow from the flying dream, neither does he deny it (I think that's because GRRM is simply not into being straightforward and explicit!) Admittedly, however, it's suspicious that in response to Bran's definite article 'the' qualifying the crow in question, Bloodraven answers with an indefinite article 'a' followed by an ellipsis (...) pregnant with meaning. One gets the feeling that Bloodraven is not saying something, and/or that he may well have someone in mind. If he isn't the three-eyed crow, perhaps he has his suspicions as to who that may be? He'll only admit that he was a crow 'once,' implying that he has since left that identity behind. He goes on to say that he used to be 'black of garb and black of blood,' the former referring to the black clothing of the Night's Watch, over which he presided as Lord Commander; the latter to the kinslaying for which he was sent to the Wall to 'take the black,' in addition to perhaps being a reference to his role as a black sorcerer. From his admission that he was 'black of blood,' I get the impression that Bloodraven regrets his past deeds and has attempted to reform himself. He sounds quite wistful here reminiscing on the family he'd like to speak to again, but can't: Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran III "But," said Bran, "he heard me." "He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." Perhaps Bloodraven is an inverse of Euron in this too, Bloodraven on the one hand being a black sorcerer who has reformed himself as a greenseer and has regrets, and Euron on the other hand a failed/aborted greenseer who has embraced black sorcery and has no regrets. Now to your second point about Bloodraven ostensibly having no recollection of teaching Bran to fly, setting the whole issue of 'flying' aside for a moment, Bloodraven does however confirm he has many recollections of watching Bran as well as visiting him in his dreams, beginning with his first dream. Does that mean he has been privy to all of Bran's dreams, or only some of them? Surely if he knows so much about Bran and his dreams, he would have had access to his coma dream? Considering how important Bran is to Bloodraven's plans, betrayed by his consummate attention to the minutiae of Bran's conscious and unconscious experience, and the statement 'now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late,' surely it would have been in Bloodraven's interest to pay extra close attention to Bran and his dreams following the fall? While he does confirm that he was 'watching when [Bran] fell,' unfortunately he doesn't elaborate on what he saw or what he may know, if anything, of Bran's subsequent dreams. In any case, this is not their first meeting, at least from Bloodraven's point of view. Moreover, he had been expecting Bran to come to him -- 'now you have come to me at last' -- although he doesn't clarify how or by whom Bran was summoned. Assuming Bloodraven took steps to assure Bran would come to him, given his emphasis on how important Bran's presence is, which of the messengers -- including Meera and Jojen, Coldhands, Sam and Gilly, and the three-eyed crow -- was sent by him? Crucially, I had always assumed Coldhands had been sent by Bloodraven as his proxy to guide Bran's party to the cave. Coldhands seems to confirm as much here: Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran I "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?" "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move. "A monster," Bran said. Coldhands seems to understand what Bran means by 'this three-eyed crow' and goes on to elaborate on his other names, 'friend, dreamer, wizard, last greenseer...' Surely this is Bloodraven? Why would someone other that Bloodraven have sent him and his ravens to chaperone Bran to the cave? What's more, we've speculated in the 'Bran's growing powers re-read' thread that Bloodraven is present in this scene, keeping an eye on the progress of the travelling party, via his other avatars of wind and ravens. After Coldhands has confirmed the identity of the three-eyed crow, note that the door bangs open and the wind announces itself together with the trees full of ravens. A tree full of ravens in any case should always remind us of Raventree Hall and Bloodraven's Blackwood roots. As an alternative to this being Bloodraven announcing himself in response to Coldhands' introduction, I suppose one could argue either that someone else is in the avatars of wind, tree, and raven; or that it is indeed Bloodraven, however protesting, hence the 'screaming', instead of affirming what Coldhands is saying. Regarding the 'different kinds of wings' you mentioned, I still don't think the dichotomy is clear. Both the three-eyed crow and weirwood versions of flying include elements of altered consciousness - 'dreaming' - as well as prophecy. For example, in his coma dream Bran travels to the future, as evidenced by him witnessing Jon Snow's death; likewise, in a weirwood 'trip' he travels to the past (time actually goes backwards as demonstrated by the trees getting younger and 'dying in reverse') all the way back in time from watching Lyanna playing at swords with her brother to witnessing someone from the bronze age sacrificing a person to a tree. One difference, however, which @LynnS has highlighted is that the former type of flight is akin to a space flight with a 'god's-eye' view, whereas the latter apparently involves nothing higher than a 'bird's-eye' perspective. Quote On 8/15/2016 at 10:40 PM, @wolfmaid7 said: "Don't fly so high which may have been cool.Nope he responds as if Bran was going to get better at flying than him " I can see that" and proceedes to peck him in his third eye. I can see how this might be a valid interpretation of the crow's intentions. However, if he's that worried about competition, why teach Bran to 'fly' in the first place? Why encourage him at all? Was he hoping to lure him into a situation where he'd fail and be impaled on the ice spears? Should this crow be Euron -- I suppose he's the likeliest candidate -- training his rivals in the secrets of his power, thereby risking the compromise of that power, would seem to be uncharacteristic behavior on his part. He's not keen on empowering others in the slightest; for example, rather than enabling others to speak in the true or common tongue, he tears out their tongues instead! Likewise, why would he want anyone other than him to 'fly'? While he brags suggestively to his brother Victarion about his 'flying' excursions and how it's enabling him to conquer the world and vanquish his enemies (including his brothers), he never offers to train him in the art. These logical glitches notwithstanding, maybe it's just the good ol' 'Star Wars' scenario GRRM inevitably lapses into where the 'dark side' and the 'light side' of the force are vying for the allegiance of the young Jedi-in-the-making... Quote On 8/15/2016 at 10:40 PM, @wolfmaid7 said: I'm not disputing the similarity of the summons.From what i've seen they all are similar including the Dragon to Dany.I think that's just the formula and ive noted before on Heresy,nothing precludes an individual from hearing several summons from different entities.Its all about the choice,Which summons they choose to follow. That's a good way of putting it. Given 'the similarity of the summons,' however, it's difficult for us to differentiate the entities responsible for the summons from one another with any great certainty. Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, @Feather Crystal said: A discussion about Euron and how he removes tongues got me thinking what the inversion of this could be? The opposite of course would be "many tongues", which led me to conclude that perhaps Bloodraven would be in possession of many tongues or ways to speak. This would include the true tongue of nature...the trees, rocks, streams, etc that the crows/ravens understand, but it could also refer to the whispering that Bran is practicing through the trees. Yes Bloodraven cautioned Bran to not call his father back from the dead, which implies that it's possible just not advisable, also that the past cannot be changed, however a whispered word in the right ear may be enough to change something in the future. .I like your many-tongued vs. solo-tongue inversion theory! The 'true tongue' or 'song of the earth' is often described in terms of musical co-operation (even the onomatopoeic words used are beautiful, e.g. 'whispering, whistling, rustling, stirring, sighing, etc.', whereas Euron is associated with mutism or harsh grating sounds like shrieking, squeaky rusty hinges). Besides all their other linguistic skills, the highest talent of a greenseer is translation. Note that when Bran speaks through the weirwood to Theon and Arya respectively he is speaking in the true tongue (the rustling) which he somehow simultaneously translates into the common tongue so that they can understand. Euron is a devourer of words and worlds; Bran is a translator between wor(l)ds. Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, @Feather Crystal said: if Bloodraven was barely hanging on waiting for him, perhaps he just got tired of waiting? It would be interesting to see if we could go back and maybe find evidence suggesting that words were whispered in his ear to climb to the tower that very day? Or even the love of climbing...since Bran had an affinity for climbing, maybe this affinity was a suggestion whispered in his ear over and over again until he was compelled to take up the practice? Intriguing idea! Can't think of any evidence offhand, though. Maybe it's the opposite: maybe Cersei was the recipient of said suggestion-- she is rather suggestible considering how 'reliably' she's been playing into the hands of whomever put the 'valonqar' prophecy into her mind-- so she and Jaime would be in the 'right' place at the 'right' time. Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, @Feather Crystal said: .if the Blackwoods are trying to suppress weirwood power Where can I read more on this theory? Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, @Feather Crystal said: The Crow's Eye...isn't that what the perch high upon a mast of a ship is called? Or is it the crow's nest? Either way I think it's related to his point of view. He's able to see everything from above just as a crow does even if he cannot skin change into them. How does he see from the same perspective of a crow? I'm pondering this question myself, especially if his god is the drowned god....however the north is currently upside down, so down is up. Crow's nest! Good points. And the 'down is up' inversion would work. I think he can also skinchange -- he rapes people body and mind. Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, Feather Crystal said: They forged three "swords": 1) First sword - tempered in water = hammer of waters 2) Second sword - tempered in the heart of a lion = they fought back using white walkers 3) Third sword - tempered in Nissa Nissa = they broke one of two moons and nearly killed everyone in the process. This was a do-over cataclysmic event on par with the Biblical event. Maybe instead of blowing up an actual moon....although I like the idea of burning moon=meteors being the First Watch carrying their fiery swords...maybe instead of actual moon meteors they conjured the red comet which brought it's own asteroids that fell and killed thousands, but also restarted the wheel of time and reset it to the very beginning. When you're explaining your inversion theory, you should do it like this: very clear to follow in point form! I also like the idea of the moon meteors constituting the first Watch. In that case, the magical 'swords' would've been intended to face south against the invaders, instead of north -- another inversion! Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, Feather Crystal said: Flying could mean two different things. One could be the ability to slip your own skin and fly freely without going into another host and be able to return to your own body. This could be useful for watching current events in real time unseen. I believe this 'flying' faculty is enabled by the weirwood. However, that's still a form of 'slipping ones skin' and entering the tree as host; in fact, Bloodraven instructs Bran to do as much Presumably, 'going beyond the trees' would entail the ability to fly without using the roots or any specific host, as you've described. Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, Feather Crystal said: The second thing could be the ability to enter someone's dream, much like Bloodraven did. Bran has already done this to Jon. Jon was dreaming when he saw Bran as a weirwood sapling with three eyes, but this was no wolf dream. I believe Bran sent Jon this dream. Jon was Ghost, but "Ghost the wolf" didn't actually see the sapling. When Bran touched Jon's forehead to demonstrate the third eye, all of a sudden he saw what Ghost was really looking at: the wildling camp, and that he was standing on the edge of a precipice. So the sapling dream was Bran communicating to Jon in the same manner that Bloodraven came to Bran in a dream. And just like Bloodraven was trying to get Bran to open his third eye, Bran was trying to get Jon to open his. The weirwood sapling dream was not a true wolf dream, because that was not what Ghost was doing at the time. It was Jon that was howling...calling out for his pack mates, because Ghost doesn't speak. That makes sense. I re-read it critically, and you're right. There's an abrupt change of scene, as if the editor of a film had spliced in the next 'frame.' Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:10 PM, Feather Crystal said: "You will never walk again," the three-eyed crow had promised, "but you will fly." Sometimes the sound of song would drift up from someplace far below. The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs. I can agree with this as well. Sometimes pain helps instill a lesson! Opening ones third eye is a similarly painful process. For this reason, I see no contradiction in the burning pain Bran experiences when the crow pecks out a pathway for his third eye. The crow is sewing/sowing in his third eye, not cutting it out. Elsewhere, the ravens' pecking on his skin to the music of the singers is called 'kisses,' which is interesting as a 'peck' on the cheek is a also colloquialism for a short, light kiss expressing some kind of affection: Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran III After the bone-grinding cold of the lands beyond the Wall, the caves were blessedly warm, and when the chill crept out of the rock the singers would light fires to drive it off again. Down here there was no wind, no snow, no ice, no dead things reaching out to grab you, only dreams and rushlight and the kisses of the ravens. And the whisperer in darkness. The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden." Painful kisses; jarring laughter -- GRRM uses these seemingly contradictory juxtaposed imagery to create a sense of unease, forcing us to question the motivations of the singers, ravens, and Bloodraven with respect to Bran. Other examples of dubious kisses: Quote A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell The missing toes on his left foot had left him with a crabbed, awkward gait, comical to look upon. Back behind him, he heard a woman laugh. Even here in this half-frozen lichyard of a castle, surrounded by snow and ice and death, there were women. Washerwomen. That was the polite way of saying camp follower, which was the polite way of saying whore. ... And even such as these made mock of Theon Turncloak. Let them laugh. His pride had perished here in Winterfell; there was no place for such in the dungeons of the Dreadfort. When you have known the kiss of a flaying knife, a laugh loses all its power to hurt you. Quote A Storm of Swords - Jaime III "Give me the sword, Kingslayer." "Oh, I will." He sprang to his feet and drove at her, the longsword alive in his hands. Brienne jumped back, parrying, but he followed, pressing the attack. No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime's blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke. And with my wrists chained together, the wench may even give me a contest for a time. His chains forced him to use a two-handed grip, though of course the weight and reach were less than if the blade had been a true two-handed greatsword, but what did it matter? His cousin's sword was long enough to write an end to this Brienne of Tarth. High, low, overhand, he rained down steel upon her. Left, right, backslash, swinging so hard that sparks flew when the swords came together, upswing, sideslash, overhand, always attacking, moving into her, step and slide, strike and step, step and strike, hacking, slashing, faster, faster, faster . . . Does anyone still insist there is no erotic tension between Jaime and Brienne, including on his part..?! Quote On 8/15/2016 at 11:20 PM, @Feather Crystal said: The Drowned God is Euron's god and it is the other moon, the one the Children "broke", which I think included suppressing magic behind the Wall. But now that the warding on the hinge has been removed the Drowned God is free again... So the liberation of the magic also led to its suppression? Who, if anyone, suppressed it? Quote On 8/16/2016 at 2:32 AM, @Black Crow said: I have a suspicion that the ravens used as couriers in the south may have lost their telepathic abilities - perhaps because its been bred ut of them and/or the weirwoods are gone - but the crows up north have still retained their powers. Maybe the saying 'dark wings, dark words' had another connotation originally, referring to these telepathic abilities of which you speak... 'Dark words' referring to the true tongue which has been forgotten, 'gone dark,' so to speak, or alternatively is seen as form of 'black magic' by those who don't understand it. Quote On 8/16/2016 at 6:07 AM, @LynnS said: I have been wondering about moonlight and how the trees collect it as a source of power. The spindly weirwood at the Night Fort seeming to break through the stone to collect the light; the moonglow of the Black Gate itself. (I'm reminded of dwarf doors in the LotR that only become visible when starlight shines on them.) Othor and his moon face, so described by Jon when he tears down the curtain in Mormont's quarters letting in the moonlight. Thanks for all your wonderful insights! I've noticed there seems to be power in scratching faces, especially moon faces: Quote Clash of Kings - Catelyn I She followed him out onto the stone balcony that jutted three-sided from the solar like the prow of a ship. Her uncle glanced up, frowning. "You can see it by day now. My men call it the Red Messenger . . . but what is the message?" Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. "The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it's an omen of victory for Riverrun—he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue." She sighed. "I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color." "That thing's not crimson," Ser Brynden said. "Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That's blood up there, child, smeared across the sky." Then there's the related cardinal example of the moon which 'wandered too close to the sun'-- scratching and cracking its face -- thereby releasing the power of the dragons/meteors. Here's another moon-tree example: Quote A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride Tall soldier pines and gnarled old oaks closed in around them. Deepwood was aptly named. The trees were huge and dark, somehow threatening. Their limbs wove through one another and creaked with every breath of wind, and their higher branches scratched at the face of the moon. The sooner we are shut of here, the better I will like it, Asha thought. The trees hate us all, deep in their wooden hearts. Quote On 8/16/2016 at 6:07 AM, LynnS said: Bran's coma dream is the god's eye view or moon's eye view of the world. He can see across continents and zoom in for the closer view. It's certainly not the skinchanging view of a crow or an eagle. It's is seeing from above. Something Bran mentions in aDwD Bran III: The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Snowflakes drifted down soundlessly to cloak the soldier pines and sentinels in white. The drifts grew so deep that they covered the entrance to the caves, leaving a white wall that Summer had to dig through whenever he went outside to join his pack and hunt. Bran did not oft range with them in those days, but some nights he watched them from above. This is before Bran takes the weirwood paste, so this ability doesn't seem dependent on marrying the tree. I suspect a full moon is necessary to be able to watch from above on some nights. An important distinction. Bran's god's eye/moon's eye/third eye was enabled by the combination of his fall, the coma dream and whomever the three-eyed crow represents. Bran is an 'Icarus' moon figure who flew too close to the sun (represented by Jaime) and cracked, releasing his magic. Quote On 8/16/2016 at 6:07 AM, @LynnS said: There is also the notion of mirroring. "Dreams become lessons, lesson become dreams". With Tyrion's twin moons; we get the reflected light from one moon mirrored on the water. Almost like a telescope, the moon as the primary mirror reflected onto the water as a secondary mirror and viewed through the lens of the third eye. So the Blood Eye or the wine dark Smoking Sea with it's crow's eye surrounded by volcanos and the God's Eye Lake providing the view from above for those with the ability to use it. The magical eyes and telescopic reflections of which you spoke are similarly represented in the accumulated imagery of the different windows and kaleidoscopic reflections involved in Bran's transformation. For example, here: Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran II There was an instant of vertigo, a sickening lurch as the window flashed past. He shot out a hand, grabbed for the ledge, lost it, caught it again with his other hand. He swung against the building, hard. The impact took the breath out of him. Bran dangled, one-handed, panting. Faces appeared in the window above him. The queen. And now Bran recognized the man beside her. They looked as much alike as reflections in a mirror. Although I prefer thinking of Bran as the moon and Jaime as the sun, in this example which I provided above, the twins are reminiscent too of the twin moons framed by a third (the window), Jaime as 'God's Eye' and Cersei as 'Blood Eye' -- the flip of a Targaryen coin...in keeping with your observation: Quote On 8/16/2016 at 6:07 AM, LynnS said: Jaimie's dreams seem to have more of the quality of weirwood dreams and Cersei's are altogether different; terrifying and insane. I tend to think these are more sorcery and glass candles. Thus, Jaime is increasingly affiliated with the northern old gods of the weirwood and the god's eye, whereas Cersei burns in a permanent state of bloody-minded Valyrian 'moonbloodedness,' drunk as a drowned god and on the rampage (she has a further connection to the drowned god, considering her first murder may have been drowning her 'friend' Melara in the well)... Quote A Clash of Kings - Sansa VI The queen's face was hard and angry. "Would that I could take a sword to their necks myself." Her voice was starting to slur. "When we were little, Jaime and I were so much alike that even our lord father could not tell us apart. Sometimes as a lark we would dress in each other's clothes and spend a whole day each as the other. Yet even so, when Jaime was given his first sword, there was none for me. 'What do I get?' I remember asking. We were so much alike, I could never understand why they treated us so differently. Jaime learned to fight with sword and lance and mace, while I was taught to smile and sing and please. He was heir to Casterly Rock, while I was to be sold to some stranger like a horse, to be ridden whenever my new owner liked, beaten whenever he liked, and cast aside in time for a younger filly. Jaime's lot was to be glory and power, while mine was birth and moonblood." Later in the saga, as their trajectories diverge, Cersei notes how her twin is becoming increasingly 'bloodless,' In contrast to her, he seems 'a pale crippled thing...a ghost of [his] former self' representing his increasing separation from her, a far cry from when they were in their mother's womb together-- again, the image of twin moons framed by a third (the womb). These two opposed 'moons' are now on a collision course: one of them is going down! Significantly, Bran looks into a window at the twins, while Cersei and Jaime look back at him out of the same. Thereafter, he is pushed out of that selfsame window, ultimately enabling the opening of yet another kind of window -- his third eye.. While he lies in his coma, Robb opens the window of his chamber in order to admit the healing wolf song, which reverberates with his heart beat, making it stronger, and may also participate in the opening of his third eye. Quote On 8/16/2016 at 6:07 AM, LynnS said: Tyrion II DwD That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping. Tyrion has both a green eye (god's eye); and a black eye (crow's eye). This above dream would seem to be something on the order of a greendream depicting the future. I'm not sure if this dream was sent to him or whether he has the ability to use the mirrors himself. Almost as though he has the ability to look into someone else's mind rather than the other way around. Bran III DwD: "It is given to a few to drink of that *green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see," said Jojen. *There are several interesting associations with the drunken god: The Drunkard's Tower at Moat Cailin; The Leaning Aspen with a carved face and broken nose that Jon sees on the way to Molestown from Castle Black and the Fountain of the Drunken God beside the statue of Trios in Tyrosh. We don't know much about Tyrion's dreams because up until Connington dries him out; he stays up all night or he gets drunk to avoid dreaming. While perusing the A+J=T arguments, I recall someone mentioned that Tyrion might be a chimera, having 'consumed' his twin in the womb. So like his siblings Jaime and Cersei, he may have begun as two separate individuals-- represented by the two-headed monster of his dreams-- although this is probably meant to be more figurative than hinting at anything biological! Like Bran, framed by twin moons and torn between them (the tearing or rent represents a window to the third eye), Tyrion harbors enormous magical potential. I'm not sure, however, how exactly to understand the origin of Tyrion's dreams, apart from a symbolic interpretation thereof. In order to have a harmonious outcome, Tyrion must rise to the challenge of uniting these polarities in himself and out in the world, which amounts to symbolically uniting a Jaime -- the God's Eye -- and a Cersei -- the Blood Eye -- without causing destruction on a massive scale, which is a tall order! A note on the drunken god -- the drunken god has more similarities with the drowned god than any other. Going back to our example of the tree drowning the moon in the well, which recapitulates Cersei drowning Melara in the well, or even Tyrion having the singer drowned in a bowl of brown, drowning as a way of dealing with ones enemies is a typical Lannister as well as Ironborn strategy. @Black Crow I enjoyed reading your Kurtz parallel. Well written too, almost as evocative as Conrad himself! 'The Inner Station'-- what an image! Paradoxically, one must traverse the inner, not merely outer, boundaries of the known, and venture into the heart of the interior in order to meet 'the Other...' Thus, 'the inner station' is a misnomer, being inner and outer simultaneously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 2 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. 2 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Tyrion harbors enormous magical potential. I'm not sure, however, how exactly to understand the origin of Tyrion's dreams, apart from a symbolic interpretation thereof. In order to have a harmonious outcome, Tyrion must rise to the challenge of uniting these polarities in himself and out in the world, which amounts to symbolically uniting a Jaime -- the God's Eye -- and a Cersei -- the Blood Eye -- without causing destruction on a massive scale, which is a tall order! Thanks once again for a fascinating post. I like the idea of Tyrion as chimera. Also in the first quote; I'm reminded that Tyrion has a scratch across his face. I think the drunken god is something different than the drowned god. The drowned god is a thrall of the Other according to Moqorro while Tyrion is a giant of a man who is caught up in everything whether he wants to be or not. This is echoed in GoT when Jon meets Tyrion for the first time. When he opens the door to return to the feast; Jon notes that the he casts a shadow as tall as a king. I was amused to read about Mushroom the dwarf in aWoIaF and I suspect that at some point Tyrion will consume the red and white mushroom he carries around concealed in the toe of his boot. There seem to be other forces at work moving Tyrion from one place to another against his will besides the usual suspects. He is chased across the sea by the bar sinister; a line across the horizon; that looks like curdled milk left on the stove too long, then a massive hurricane. He ends up in the eye of the hurricane directly over the eye of the smoking sea; surrounded by mountains that he glimpses through the storm wall. And yet he survives. He survives every menace thrown at him. I have no idea where it will go. LOL! Tyrion is a wild card like Bran or perhaps even the joker in the deck, if not the drunken god himself. This might give you a chuckle: Simon Bar Sinister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 19 hours ago, Black Crow said: I still disagree. I think all of this is just part of Bran being woken by the serving woman, just as Ned thinks his sister is calling him when Vayon Poole wakes him from his fever dream. The serving girl wasn't deliberately waking Bran and may have screamed because he was thrashing about, perhaps flapping his arms as if flying, but it was she who screamed in fear, not the crow - although the latter may well have expressed frustration as the link was broken. None of this is what i was talking about actually.My point was that Jon when Bran opened Jon's eyes it was not a painful ordeal.My The above has nothing to do with that.Plus i'm not saying the serving girl was anything but a serving girl.I was asking a question about what the 3ec could have feared when he attacked Bran,and was he himself attacked by the mist. 2 hours ago, ravenous reader said: @wolfmaid7 While it's true that Bloodraven refrains from confirming that he is the three-eyed crow from the flying dream, neither does he deny it (I think that's because GRRM is simply not into being straightforward and explicit!) Admittedly, however, it's suspicious that in response to Bran's definite article 'the' qualifying the crow in question, Bloodraven answers with an indefinite article 'a' followed by an ellipsis (...) pregnant with meaning. One gets the feeling that Bloodraven is not saying something, and/or that he may well have someone in mind. If he isn't the three-eyed crow, perhaps he has his suspicions as to who that may be? He'll only admit that he was a crow 'once,' implying that he has since left that identity behind. He goes on to say that he used to be 'black of garb and black of blood,' the former referring to the black clothing of the Night's Watch, over which he presided as Lord Commander; the latter to the kinslaying for which he was sent to the Wall to 'take the black,' in addition to perhaps being a reference to his role as a black sorcerer. From his admission that he was 'black of blood,' I get the impression that Bloodraven regrets his past deeds and has attempted to reform himself. He sounds quite wistful here reminiscing on the family he'd like to speak to again, but can't: Perhaps Bloodraven is an inverse of Euron in this too, Bloodraven on the one hand being a black sorcerer who has reformed himself as a greenseer and has regrets, and Euron on the other hand a failed/aborted greenseer who has embraced black sorcery and has no regrets. Now to your second point about Bloodraven ostensibly having no recollection of teaching Bran to fly, setting the whole issue of 'flying' aside for a moment, Bloodraven does however confirm he has many recollections of watching Bran as well as visiting him in his dreams, beginning with his first dream. Does that mean he has been privy to all of Bran's dreams, or only some of them? Surely if he knows so much about Bran and his dreams, he would have had access to his coma dream? Considering how important Bran is to Bloodraven's plans, betrayed by his consummate attention to the minutiae of Bran's conscious and unconscious experience, and the statement 'now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late,' surely it would have been in Bloodraven's interest to pay extra close attention to Bran and his dreams following the fall? While he does confirm that he was 'watching when [Bran] fell,' unfortunately he doesn't elaborate on what he saw or what he may know, if anything, of Bran's subsequent dreams. In any case, this is not their first meeting, at least from Bloodraven's point of view. Moreover, he had been expecting Bran to come to him -- 'now you have come to me at last' -- although he doesn't clarify how or by whom Bran was summoned. Assuming Bloodraven took steps to assure Bran would come to him, given his emphasis on how important Bran's presence is, which of the messengers -- including Meera and Jojen, Coldhands, Sam and Gilly, and the three-eyed crow -- was sent by him? Crucially, I had always assumed Coldhands had been sent by Bloodraven as his proxy to guide Bran's party to the cave. Coldhands seems to confirm as much here: Coldhands seems to understand what Bran means by 'this three-eyed crow' and goes on to elaborate on his other names, 'friend, dreamer, wizard, last greenseer...' Surely this is Bloodraven? Why would someone other that Bloodraven have sent him and his ravens to chaperone Bran to the cave? What's more, we've speculated in the 'Bran's growing powers re-read' thread that Bloodraven is present in this scene, keeping an eye on the progress of the travelling party, via his other avatars of wind and ravens. After Coldhands has confirmed the identity of the three-eyed crow, note that the door bangs open and the wind announces itself together with the trees full of ravens. A tree full of ravens in any case should always remind us of Raventree Hall and Bloodraven's Blackwood roots. As an alternative to this being Bloodraven announcing himself in response to Coldhands' introduction, I suppose one could argue either that someone else is in the avatars of wind, tree, and raven; or that it is indeed Bloodraven, however protesting, hence the 'screaming', instead of affirming what Coldhands is saying. Regarding the 'different kinds of wings' you mentioned, I still don't think the dichotomy is clear. Both the three-eyed crow and weirwood versions of flying include elements of altered consciousness - 'dreaming' - as well as prophecy. For example, in his coma dream Bran travels to the future, as evidenced by him witnessing Jon Snow's death; likewise, in a weirwood 'trip' he travels to the past (time actually goes backwards as demonstrated by the trees getting younger and 'dying in reverse') all the way back in time from watching Lyanna playing at swords with her brother to witnessing someone from the bronze age sacrificing a person to a tree. One difference, however, which @LynnS has highlighted is that the former type of flight is akin to a space flight with a 'god's-eye' view, whereas the latter apparently involves nothing higher than a 'bird's-eye' perspective. I can see how this might be a valid interpretation of the crow's intentions. However, if he's that worried about competition, why teach Bran to 'fly' in the first place? Why encourage him at all? Was he hoping to lure him into a situation where he'd fail and be impaled on the ice spears? Should this crow be Euron -- I suppose he's the likeliest candidate -- training his rivals in the secrets of his power, thereby risking the compromise of that power, would seem to be uncharacteristic behavior on his part. He's not keen on empowering others in the slightest; for example, rather than enabling others to speak in the true or common tongue, he tears out their tongues instead! Likewise, why would he want anyone other than him to 'fly'? While he brags suggestively to his brother Victarion about his 'flying' excursions and how it's enabling him to conquer the world and vanquish his enemies (including his brothers), he never offers to train him in the art. These logical glitches notwithstanding, maybe it's just the good ol' 'Star Wars' scenario GRRM inevitably lapses into where the 'dark side' and the 'light side' of the force are vying for the allegiance of the young Jedi-in-the-making... That's a good way of putting it. Given 'the similarity of the summons,' however, it's difficult for us to differentiate the entities responsible for the summons from one another with any great certainty. . I don't think he was refraining from answering indicated by the clarification of his reply and the answer: "Crow? Aye.Black of garb and black of blood etc."What he's thinking Bran meant,isn't what Bran meant.I have no doubt Bloodraven has several regrets and goes off into a tangent about that life which again goes toward my point.It a natural conversation with no attempt to hide that he's the 3ec.There's no reason for that.He already told Bran he visited him in dreams;all indication points to him being the weirwood(s) that was calling him. I thought about the idea that idea and i think he can't see the other avatar in the dreams.The crow is somehow concealed from him,but the crow is aware of the weirwoods. "At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.Agot,Bran,2." Now,Bran wasn't alone in the air in his dream,but atleast from Bran's point of view the Weirwood tree was aware of him(Bran) so maybe the 3ec isn't visible to others.Bran makes it clear to Luuwin: "They do," Bran said with sudden certainty. "They dream tree dreams. I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me. The wolf dreams are better. I smell things, and sometimes I can taste the blood." In another dream ( i'll look for that one) he saysthey want him to follwo them to paraphrase.So still pointing to two separate entities.As to who BR sent to help Bran North i'd say Coldhands. The only time the 3ec wanted Bran to follow him it was in the dreams and it was to visit the crypts.He never told Bran to leave WF and come North. I think CHs understanding is in the context of he was sent to Bran to help him once he gets pass the Wall and he reall didn't seem to care what Bran meant which may indicate his own overall view of BR...."Call him what you wan't....So what if Bran meant to call him foe instead of friend?How are we to view BR inlight of CHs statement.What he was doing by bringing Bran seems to be a "i scratxh you back,you scratch mine" kind of thing we just don't know yet what he got out of it. Again not disputing the similar broad elements which i think is unimportant in the context of if they are the same then the lessons are redundant and could have been accomplished by the weirwoods alone in the dreams,BR alone in real life when Bran went to him,or the crow alone.But its not .The formula is the same the variables are different and the preceding is a big big point.If one,its all redundant when it doesn't have to be.therefore,the logical conclusion is it's different entities using the same formula. At the core,its no different to what,Arya,Dany and Jon went through.Different entities using the same formula to take them to another level.To further add to a point that you reiterated in what @LynnS made.It may solidify what i'm saying BR has told Bran that via the weirwoods they can see the present and past and the future is basically a shadow,glimpses.They have to make sense of those glimpses which is where the wisdom comes in.They are thrown between what was and what is that 's it.Not what will be.That's the crow.There's no once you get pass Master Windu's lesson you go one up and rain with Master Yoda. Two entities came to Bran through Bran's assumption he left WF and went to BR. There was no need to go to the crow.The crow was coming to Bran and taking him where he wished to go in his dreams.He need not have left WF.Once he left WF no more dreaming of crows.Him leaving WF was the chain event that led to him looking like a tree when he appeared to Jon. This is a strange rebuttal in the sense of does a teacher when he takes on a pupil have that thought going in?No. No teacher says i'm not going to have a pupil for fear of he/she will be better.But if my pupil start showing real genius when i'm far from retireing i might want to check that.Or as i also,said there could have been a problem with Bran's exultation.The 3ec only attacked Bran when Bran's attituide changed and he began to soar to high: "The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. ( note Bran had this same feeing when he flew in the cave,but BR didn't say hey you can't go skinchanging any and everything that shit aint cool.I am sure he knows Bran goes into Hodor against his will.That's flying to high) "The world grew small beneath him."I'm flying!" he cried out in delight. I've noticed, said the three-eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as its pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes. "What are you doing?" he shrieked.The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil,......" I think its a situation like this your training someone and your pupil begins to exhibit traits that may be problematic.This is what i think was happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said: Plus i'm not saying the serving girl was anything but a serving girl.I was asking a question about what the 3ec could have feared when he attacked Bran,and was he himself attacked by the mist. Ah you misunderstand me. While Lynn raised the old question of a physical connection between the crow and the serving maid, what I was suggesting was that the crow was frustrated by her inadvertently waking Bran and breaking the connection in mid-session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 12 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I think this statement above is proof that the 3EC = Bloodraven. 12 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Quote .if the Blackwoods are trying to suppress weirwood power Where can I read more on this theory? I don't have anything fleshed out. I was just speculating. 12 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Quote The Drowned God is Euron's god and it is the other moon, the one the Children "broke", which I think included suppressing magic behind the Wall. But now that the warding on the hinge has been removed the Drowned God is free again... So the liberation of the magic also led to its suppression? Who, if anyone, suppressed it? I think magic was suppressed after the three swords did their damage, although the story of the Battle for the Dawn has it coming after the second sword. It is said that after the Others are defeated, the Wall was built. The Wall is what suppresses magic, but once the wheel of time was broken and reversed, magic was released. Yes, the Wall is still standing...at least it seems unchanging, but it is expelling magic as evidenced by the blizzard at the end of Dance. Many readers have speculated that the source of the storm seems to be emanating out of Winterfell, but if there are tunnels underground it could be that the tunnels are like exhaust pipes, and if it is indeed exiting out of Winterfell, then that is where the warding was removed or opened. I haven't finished reading the rest of your post and those afterward, so will return later with more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said: There was no need to go to the crow.The crow was coming to Bran and taking him where he wished to go in his dreams.He need not have left WF. Bran may not have needed to go to the crow for his lesson; but I think there was a reason to get Bran beyond the Wall; starting with the first assassination attempt on his life. Coldhands is very specific about the world thinking the boy is dead and wanting to ensure that nobody comes looking for him. I'm not sure that this is just a case of Littlefinger setting up the Lannisters and Tyrion in particular. There are other means for entering the mind and dreams of others. There is another dream where Bran is climbing the tower after Tyrion visits on his way back from the Wall: aGoT Bran IV In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase . Higher and Higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. This seems to be another way of saying that Bran is reaching for the moon or using the moon's eye view. The ancient high windowless tower; the House of Black and White. The House of Black and White sits upon a rocky knoll made of dark grey stone. It has no windows and has a black tile roof. Wiki. The Citadel could be another ancient high tower. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. (The italicized text, a second voice; reinforcing Bran's fears and self-imposed limitations.) He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. Bran can see the gargoyles at the top of the tower, watching him ascend. Someone else using the moon's eye view. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. I'm reminded of Sam arriving at the Citadel. He meets Marwyn for the first time who has been watching him through the glass candles. Before Sam enters the room; Pate the Faceless Man has been closeted alone with Marwyn. Sam enters to see the glass candles burning and smells something burnt in the brazier. I'm going to guess that a blood offering was made using holy blood or Pate's blood to activate the candles. From Euron's chapter in WoW; we know he is collecting holy men to use their blood in some sorcery. The FM are a priesthood and that would quality the FM as holy blood. This may be the secret that only Marwyn knows to activate the candles. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear, so long as he did not hear them, he was safe. Bran has the capability of watching the watchers and hearing what they say. Instinctively he know that this knowledge is dangerous to him. That they had once been lions now twisted and grotesque; identifies them. But when he gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't." He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered trembling with fear, but then the shadow said, "Hodor," and lit a candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief. Although Bran denies hearing the gargoyles; he did hear them. The vast shadow is another of Bran's visions in the coma dream: He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood. The giant in armor made of stone; is the Titan of Braavos: home base for the FM and the House of Black and White. We are meant to think that the dream is about Cersei and Jaime pushing Bran out the window; but this dream is something else. The question is who are the gargoyles who were once lions. I suspect Marwyn of being a bastard son of Tywin Lannister and a dwarf. This might fit with Tyrion's aunt jokingly telling him that there is not doubt that he is Tywin's son. Because she knows that Tywin has produced another offspring with dwarfism. I also suspect Petyr Baelish of being a bastard son of Tywin and he is also connected to the Stone Giant or Braavos. I think that Marwyn was the dwarf maester who served at the Fingers; mentioned by Tyrion in aDwD. Tyrion is also a threat to be eliminated because he like Bran; has the capability of watching the watchers. His nightmares which he avoids by staying up all night or getting stone drunk to avoid dreaming.. ETA: An additional question would be whether the Wall blocks access by glass candles; if Bran is afforded additional protection in the cave of the greenseer. His crow dreams stop after he crosses the Wall. This might also be a barrier for Melisandre searching in the fires for the enemy when BR and Bran break into her vision. So something similar? If the gargoyles were once lions; are they now crows? Do they fear Bran as he fears them? Someone wants Bran to open the third eye; while the other wants to stop him from seeing. How does Marwyn see and listen to Sam recount his tale to the Sphynx when it's daylight and the moon is hidden. Quaithe touches Dany's wrist leaving a tingling sensation establishing a direct connection with her in order to use the glass candle. Marywin must see and hear Sam through the Sphynx. Does he have other spies he can use at Winterfell? A serving girl maybe? So we have two gargoyles who might have been lions once; Marwyn and the Mockingbird; a bird that can mimic other sounds... a crow. ETA: I'm guessing that Coldhands is the 3EC or one aspect of him and the reason he can't cross the Black Gate is because he is the Black Gate. Coldhands is the green man version of the 3EC. He can speak to Bran in his mind and he refers to BR as a dreamer. They killed him long ago; as old as the face of the Black Gate; who sheds a salty tear when Bran passes. The three eyed crow's purpose is to get Bran to safety; away from the assassins. Protected by a green man; like the heart tree and godswood on the island of the God's Eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. On balance I'm inclined to agree that this demonstrates Bloodraven and the crow or crows are one and the same - but with a reservation. We've gone back and forth over the issue, and these days I very much lean to the view that so far as Bloodraven is concerned he is reaching out to Bran in his dreams but is unaware that when he does so he appears to Bran as a crow. Where I think there is room for reconciling the opposing arguments is that as depicted on the Blackwood arms the crows are the messengers by which means he can go beyond the weirwood. Assuming that he is aware of them he no doubt thinks they are merely a conduit for his thoughts and dreams, but being crows they are not above putting their own spin on the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 12 hours ago, Black Crow said: the crows are the messengers by which means he can go beyond the weirwood. Assuming that he is aware of them he no doubt thinks they are merely a conduit for his thoughts and dreams, but being crows they are not above putting their own spin on the message. Huginn and Muninn -- pranksters! @LynnS another great post! On 8/18/2016 at 9:58 PM, LynnS said: I'm reminded that Tyrion has a scratch across his face Good point! And his nose is partially missing, possibly providing a kind of 'window' into his head, like a third eye. On 8/18/2016 at 9:58 PM, LynnS said: He is chased across the sea by the bar sinister; a line across the horizon; that looks like curdled milk left on the stove too long, then a massive hurricane. He ends up in the eye of the hurricane directly over the eye of the smoking sea; surrounded by mountains that he glimpses through the storm wall. And yet he survives. He survives every menace thrown at him. I have no idea where it will go. LOL! Tyrion is a wild card like Bran or perhaps even the joker in the deck, if not the drunken god himself. This might give you a chuckle: Simon Bar Sinister Thanks for the link -- how ironic that Peter Dinklage played the role of the Bar Sinister! I was interested to read that in heraldry a 'bar sinister' is a marker of illegitimacy or bastardy, indicated by the sash beginning in the upper left-hand corner from the perspective of the wearer, instead of the right designating legitimate/'the right' children (hence 'sinister'=Latin for 'left' as 'dexter'='right'). In that quote you referenced, Penny asks Tyrion to explain the meaning of the bar sinister: Quote But when he clambered up the ladder to the sterncastle and looked off from the stern, his smile faltered. Blue sky and blue sea here, but off west … I have never seen a sky that color. A thick band of clouds ran along the horizon. “A bar sinister,” he said to Penny, pointing. “What does that mean?” she asked. “It means some big bastard is creeping up behind us.” ... For the better part of three hours they ran before the wind, as the storm grew closer. The western sky went green, then grey, then black. A wall of dark clouds loomed up behind them, churning like a kettle of milk left on the fire too long. Tyrion and Penny watched from the forecastle, huddled by the figurehead and holding hands, careful to stay out of the way of captain and crew. ... In the end, they did not drown … though there were times when the prospect of a nice, peaceful drowning had a certain appeal. The storm raged for the rest of that day and well into the night. Wet winds howled around them and waves rose like the fists of drowned giants to smash down on their decks. ... Nearby midnight the winds finally died away, and the sea grew calm enough for Tyrion to make his way back up onto deck. What he saw there did not reassure him. The cog was drifting on a sea of dragonglass beneath a bowl of stars, but all around the storm raged on. East, west, north, south, everywhere he looked, the clouds rose up like black mountains, their tumbled slopes and collossal cliffs alive with blue and purple lightning. No rain was falling, but the decks were slick and wet underfoot. ... The wind returned as a whispered threat, cold and damp, brushing over his cheek, flapping the wet sail, swirling and tugging at Moqorro’s scarlet robes. Some instinct made Tyrion grab hold of the nearest rail, just in time. In the space of three heartbeats the little breeze became a howling gale. Moqorro shouted something, and green flames leapt from the dragon’s maw atop his staff to vanish in the night. Then the rains came, black and blinding, and forecastle and sterncastle both vanished behind a wall of water. Something huge flapped overhead, and Tyrion glanced up in time to see the sail taking wing, with two men still dangling from the lines. Then he heard a crack. Oh, bloody hell, he had time to think, that had to be the mast. ... Then the mast burst. Tyrion never saw it, but he heard it. That cracking sound again and then a scream of tortured wood, and suddenly the air was full of shards and splinters. One missed his eye by half an inch, a second found his neck, a third went through his calf, boots and breeches and all. He screamed. But he held on to the line, held on with a desperate strength he did not know he had. The widow said this ship would never reach her destination, he remembered. Then he laughed and laughed, wild and hysterical, as thunder boomed and timbers moaned and waves crashed all around him. If the bar sinister looming over Tyrion is the embodiment of 'some big bastard creeping up behind' him, who is moreover compared to a 'dark' stone 'wall,' 'colossal cliffs', 'giants'; could that be a reference to one of the speculative bastards, namely Littlefinger or Marwyn, you suggested? Fittingly, you linked these figures to gargoyles who are also said to loom over the action from on high like imposing shadow beasts, watching everyone. The ones who see without being seen, conferring a strategic advantage. Suggestively, gargoyles are associated with both dwarves and giants at once. For example, here Davos rubs the gargoyle's head for luck as one would a dwarf, as the superstition goes: Quote A Clash of Kings - Davos I Out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated. He and Davos were old friends, though. He gave a pat to the stone head as he went in. "Luck," he murmured. Thus, dwarves and gargoyles are associated with special gifts, even godly ones: 'luck' is related to swaying someones fortune for better or worse, fortune-telling, prophecy, etc. Cersei responds to the decapitated dwarf brought to her in lieu of Tyrion: Quote A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII "The eyes, just so . . . Your Grace, your brother's own eyes had . . . somewhat decayed. I took the liberty of replacing them with glass . . . but of the wrong color, as you say." That only annoyed her further. "Your head may have glass eyes, but I do not. There are gargoyles on Dragonstone that look more like the Imp than this creature. So, our attention is drawn to dwarves who mimic gargoyles on Dragonstone possessed of special glass eyes...special lenses?...glass candles?...dragonglass?...I'll let you unpack that one! Symbolically, Tyrion's eyes have not 'decayed' per se, although they've certainly been transformed. This, in addition to the remark about the 'wrong' eye colour reminding us of Tyrion's mismatched eyes, is an obscure nod at Tyrion's third eye. Thus, 'seeing' and 'eyes' are highlighted with respect to gargoyles, who are in essence dwarves who become giants due to their privileged position and perspective. So, although gargoyles are objectively small in stature, they -- like their small-statured counterparts Tyrion, Bran, Littlefinger and Marwyn -- can be said to cast a long shadow: Quote A Storm of Swords - Davos VI The nightfire burned against the gathering dark, a great bright beast whose shifting orange light threw shadows twenty feet tall across the yard. All along the walls of Dragonstone the army of gargoyles and grotesques seemed to stir and shift. The ominously gathering assembly of gargoyles is likened to an 'army,' highlighting that their ilk will be important players in the war(s) to come. Memorably, even blind Maester Aemon, himself a small-packaged 'giant' with privileged vision, recognises that Tyrion is a giant not to be trifled with. His tone is serious, even somber here: Quote "Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world." Tyrion answered gently, "I've been called many things, my lord, but giant is seldom one of them." "Nonetheless," Maester Aemon said as his clouded, milk-white eyes moved to Tyrion's face, "I think it is true." For once, Tyrion Lannister found himself at a loss for words. He could only bow his head politely and say, "You are too kind, Maester Aemon." The blind man smiled. He was a tiny thing, wrinkled and hairless, shrunken beneath the weight of a hundred years so his maester's collar with its links of many metals hung loose about his throat. "I have been called many things, my lord," he said, "but kind is seldom one of them." This time Tyrion himself led the laughter. Maester Aemon, like Tyrion, is a gargoyle on the Wall. Then there's Shae who combines the image of Tyrion as dwarf, giant, and lion all in one, repeatedly drilling that configuration into our heads: Quote A Clash of Kings - Tyrion I "Be quiet and kiss me," he commanded. He could taste the wine on her lips, and feel her small firm breasts pressed against him as her fingers moved to the lacings of his breeches. "My lion," she whispered when he broke off the kiss to undress. "My sweet lord, my giant of Lannister." Tyrion pushed her toward the bed. When he entered her, she screamed loud enough to wake Baelor the Blessed in his tomb, and her nails left gouges in his back. He'd never had a pain he liked half so well. Fool, he thought to himself afterward, as they lay in the center of the sagging mattress amidst the rumpled sheets. Will you never learn, dwarf? She's a whore, damn you, it's your coin she loves, not your cock. Remember Tysha? Yet when his fingers trailed lightly over one nipple, it stiffened at the touch, and he could see the mark on her breast where he'd bitten her in his passion. Additionally, there's an association of giant lions of Lannister with whores (e.g. Tytos, Tywin, and Tyrion all used whores on the sly), and by implication bastards... I included this quote with reference to your observation that the gargoyles in question 'used to be lions once,' specifically regarding your speculation that Tywin -- a notable giant-of-Lannister-in-chief -- may have ironically fathered more than one dwarf! Another name for a giant, as you pointed out, is a 'titan' and fittingly many classic Lannister names begin with the prefix 'Ty-' including Tytos (almost identical to 'titan' securing the connection to Braavos perhaps), Tywin, Tyrion, Tygett, Tysha, etc. In this respect, could it be significant that 'Petyr' Baelish's name is spelled 'Pe-tyr' instead of the expected 'Pe-ter'? What is Maester Marwyn's family name? In the following passage Lady Dustin highlights the convenience of a Maester dropping his family name, allowing his real identity -- which may be that of a bastard -- to 'pass under the radar': Quote A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell She might have said more, but then she saw the maesters. Three of them had entered together by the lord's door behind the dais—one tall, one plump, one very young, but in their robes and chains they were three grey peas from a black pod. Before the war, Medrick had served Lord Hornwood, Rhodry Lord Cerwyn, and young Henly Lord Slate. Roose Bolton had brought them all to Winterfell to take charge of Luwin's ravens, so messages might be sent and received from here again. As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?" "They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him. "They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled. "That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—" Perhaps, like Maester Walys, Marwyn was a bastard as you intimated...a Flowers, Hill, Rivers, or Snow..? 15 hours ago, LynnS said: The giant in armor made of stone; is the Titan of Braavos: home base for the FM and the House of Black and White. We are meant to think that the dream is about Cersei and Jaime pushing Bran out the window; but this dream is something else. The question is who are the gargoyles who were once lions. I suspect Marwyn of being a bastard son of Tywin Lannister and a dwarf. This might fit with Tyrion's aunt jokingly telling him that there is not doubt that he is Tywin's son. Because she knows that Tywin has produced another offspring with dwarfism. I also suspect Petyr Baelish of being a bastard son of Tywin and he is also connected to the Stone Giant or Braavos. I think that Marwyn was the dwarf maester who served at the Fingers; mentioned by Tyrion in aDwD. Tyrion is also a threat to be eliminated because he like Bran; has the capability of watching the watchers. His nightmares which he avoids by staying up all night or getting stone drunk to avoid dreaming.. If the gargoyles were once lions; are they now crows? Do they fear Bran as he fears them? Someone wants Bran to open the third eye; while the other wants to stop him from seeing. ... So we have two gargoyles who might have been lions once; Marwyn and the Mockingbird; a bird that can mimic other sounds... a crow. I'm not sure if they're crows now, but they're probably not ravens, going by the ravens flying overhead defecating on top of the gargoyles' heads! I think you need to search for 'a hellhound' and 'a wyvern': Quote A Clash of Kings - Prologue The comet's tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky. The maester stood on the windswept balcony outside his chambers. It was here the ravens came, after long flight. Their droppings speckled the gargoyles that rose twelve feet tall on either side of him, a hellhound and a wyvern, two of the thousand that brooded over the walls of the ancient fortress. When first he came to Dragonstone, the army of stone grotesques had made him uneasy, but as the years passed he had grown used to them. Now he thought of them as old friends. The three of them watched the sky together with foreboding. The maester did not believe in omens. And yet . . . old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets. He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been here so much longer than he had, and would still be here long after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak . . . Such folly. He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers. Talking gargoyles and prophecies in the sky. 'If stone tongues could speak...' Gargoyles also have a reputation for being shady obscure creatures whose features, and therefore true identity, have a tendency to be ambiguous. Not only are they chimeric creatures, a pastiche fashioned from different animals, they are often described as featureless, 'shapeless,' 'shifting,' 'blurry' shadows, indiscriminate black or white 'lumps' and blobs-- and, as such, menacing: Quote A Clash of Kings - Davos I The morning air was dark with the smoke of burning gods. They were all afire now, Maid and Mother, Warrior and Smith, the Crone with her pearl eyes and the Father with his gilded beard; even the Stranger, carved to look more animal than human. The old dry wood and countless layers of paint and varnish blazed with a fierce hungry light. Heat rose shimmering through the chill air; behind, the gargoyles and stone dragons on the castle walls seemed blurred, as if Davos were seeing them through a veil of tears. Or as if the beasts were trembling, stirring . . . "An ill thing," Allard declared, though at least he had the sense to keep his voice low. Dale muttered agreement. Quote A Clash of Kings - Bran I He could see the comet hanging above the Guards Hall and the Bell Tower, and farther back the First Keep, squat and round, its gargoyles black shapes against the bruised purple dusk. Once Bran had known every stone of those buildings, inside and out; he had climbed them all, scampering up walls as easily as other boys ran down stairs. Their rooftops had been his secret places, and the crows atop the broken tower his special friends. And then he had fallen. Because gargoyles are creatures of ambiguous identity, they may be easily mistaken for another, or underestimated -- which makes them dangerous...'a bar sinister'? GRRM plays with that ambiguity here: Quote A Storm of Swords - Sansa III When the moonstones hung from Sansa's ears and about her neck, the queen nodded. "Yes. The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle." "What gargoyle?" Sansa did not understand. Did she mean Willas? How could she know? No one knew, but her and Margaery and the Queen of Thorns . . . oh, and Dontos, but he didn't count. Cersei Lannister ignored the question. I told you...GRRM doesn't give straight answers to our questions-- 'What gargoyle' indeed?! On the surface, this would seem to refer to Tyrion, her husband-to-be, but on another level this could also refer to Littlefinger, on whom Sansa's 'sweet innocence' would also be most 'obscenely squandered.' From a certain point of view, Littlefinger is her ultimate nemesis, and in typical gargoyle fashion he has a shady, patchy identity, even going by many different names and sigils. Supporting this interpretation of Littlefinger as one of the 'Über-gargoyles' of the plot, he has many 'stone' associations which would link him to gargoyles. Let's go through his various aliases, one by one. To start, a clue can be found in the name 'Petyr' from the Latin 'petrus' for stone, as in 'petrify,' which is to terrify someone to the point of not being able to speak, think, or move; in other words, 'turn them to stone.' By all accounts he's thoroughly overwhelmed Sansa, to the point where she is certainly not in charge of her faculties around him. It wouldn't be an overstatement to say he's mesmerized her. He treats her as a pawn (i.e. a movable stone piece) in his game, one which he hopes he can urge across the board and possibly transform into a queen, one he's not afraid to sacrifice if necessary, one he's already framed for regicide -- all of which are symbolic ways of turning Sansa into stone. In the Eyrie, this parallel is entrenched in the way he persuades her to relinquish her Stark identity, with which she complies masquerading as his daughter 'Alayne Stone.' In the matter of framing her for Joffrey's murder, from which he brilliantly extracted her simultaneously trapping her in his web-- one might say, 'killing two birds with one stone' --by adorning her with the poisonous purple hairnet, compared to a head of snakes by the ghost of high heart, he's associated with the gorgon, the medusa whose gaze could trap people in its path, turning them to stone. He -- not Sansa -- is the poisonous gargoyle -- the serpent posing as a bird -- squatting on her head unbeknownst to her, whispering his poisonous thoughts into her ear and moving her about the board, as his pleasure -- not hers -- dictates. Then, we have a further clue in his family name 'Baelish,' whose sigil was the grey stone head with fiery eyes of the Titan of Braavos. This sigil is reminiscent of a mask or visor, fitting for a master 'mummer' playing at war, from a city known for its mummery (Braavos, like Venice after which it's fashioned, is an improbable city of stone floating on water without trees, full of masks, mystique, and mirages). By the way, this mask is remarkably similar to the descriptions you provided both of Bran's frightening gargoyle dream where they have stone faces and glowing eyes: 15 hours ago, LynnS said: Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. as well as Bran's dream of the three looming shadows, the last in particular identified by many as Littlefinger: 15 hours ago, LynnS said: Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood. I also think Littlefinger is the shadow beast of the Red Keep looming over Ned, whom Ned can sense but not place: Quote A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII When he had gone, Eddard Stark went to the window and sat brooding. Robert had left him no choice that he could see. He ought to thank him. It would be good to return to Winterfell. He ought never have left. His sons were waiting there. Perhaps he and Catelyn would make a new son together when he returned, they were not so old yet. And of late he had often found himself dreaming of snow, of the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night. And yet, the thought of leaving angered him as well. So much was still undone. Robert and his council of cravens and flatterers would beggar the realm if left unchecked … or, worse, sell it to the Lannisters in payment of their loans. And the truth of Jon Arryn's death still eluded him. Oh, he had found a few pieces, enough to convince him that Jon had indeed been murdered, but that was no more than the spoor of an animal on the forest floor. He had not sighted the beast itself yet, though he sensed it was there, lurking, hidden, treacherous. Finally, further clues to his essential gargoyle nature are associated with the name 'Littlefinger': Quote A Feast for Crows - Jaime III Across the pewter waters of the lake the towers of Black Harren's folly appeared at last, five twisted fingers of black, misshapen stone grasping for the sky. Though Littlefinger had been named the Lord of Harrenhal, he seemed in no great haste to occupy his new seat, so it had fallen to Jaime Lannister to "sort out" Harrenhal on his way to Riverrun. In his association with the stony Fingers as well as Harrenhal, which is compared to 'twisted' stony 'fingers of black grasping for the sky', the repetition of 'fingers' and 'stone' imagery juxtaposed with 'Littlefinger' reinforces that Littlefinger is one of these stony fingers and 'misshapen' gargoyles (in keeping with your hypothesis that certain 'fingers' are aiming for the moon and the accompanying god's eye view and power afforded by it...). The symbolism of Littlefinger building the snow castle with Sansa is illuminating. Like Bran and Tyrion, Littlefinger is an archetypal 'Smith' character, an engineer, a builder and breaker. Appropriately, the problem of gargoyles comes up, and Littlefinger provides us and Sansa an answer: Quote A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII She raised the walls of the glass gardens while Littlefinger roofed them over, and when they were done with that he helped her extend the walls and build the guardshall. When she used sticks for the covered bridges, they stood, just as he had said they would. The First Keep was simple enough, an old round drum tower, but Sansa was stymied again when it came to putting the gargoyles around the top. Again he had the answer. "It's been snowing on your castle, my lady," he pointed out. "What do the gargoyles look like when they're covered with snow?" Sansa closed her eyes to see them in memory. "They're just white lumps." "Well, then. Gargoyles are hard, but white lumps should be easy." And they were. The Broken Tower was easier still. They made a tall tower together, kneeling side by side to roll it smooth, and when they'd raised it Sansa stuck her fingers through the top, grabbed a handful of snow, and flung it full in his face. Petyr yelped, as the snow slid down under his collar. "That was unchivalrously done, my lady." Littlefinger notes that gargoyles can not be differentiated when they are covered in snow. After they finish applying the 'white lumps,' Sansa flings snow in Petyr's face, literally making him by any of his aliases 'Petyr'/'Littlefinger'/'Baelish' a stone covered in snow, therefore a gargoyle according to the previous description of how to make one! Significantly, the particular snow Sansa uses to reveal Petyr (paradoxically by covering him) as a gargoyle is plucked from the top of the Broken Tower, from which Bran fell overseen by the gargoyles, one of which Bran had been straddling, before hanging upside down from it by his legs and slipping at the time he came to the twins' attention. Is this meant to signify that Littlefinger played a part in Bran's fall, or planned to kill him later? Another passage recapitulating the snow gargoyles at Winterfell proper: Quote A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak The snow was coming down heavier than ever when they left the hall, with Lady Dustin wrapped in sable. Huddled in their hooded cloaks, the guards outside were almost indistinguishable from the snowmen. Only their breath fogging the air gave proof that they still lived. Fires burned along the battlements, a vain attempt to drive the gloom away. Their small party found themselves slogging through a smooth, unbroken expanse of white that came halfway up their calves. The tents in the yard were half-buried, sagging under the weight of the accumulation. The entrance to the crypts was in the oldest section of the castle, near the foot of the First Keep, which had sat unused for hundreds of years. Ramsay had put it to the torch when he sacked Winterfell, and much of what had not burned had collapsed. Only a shell remained, one side open to the elements and filling up with snow. Rubble was strewn all about it: great chunks of shattered masonry, burned beams, broken gargoyles. The falling snow had covered almost all of it, but part of one gargoyle still poked above the drift, its grotesque face snarling sightless at the sky. This is where they found Bran when he fell. Theon had been out hunting that day, riding with Lord Eddard and King Robert, with no hint of the dire news that awaited them back at the castle. He remembered Robb's face when they told him. No one had expected the broken boy to live. The gods could not kill Bran, no more than I could. It was a strange thought, and stranger still to remember that Bran might still be alive. It's interesting that the gargoyle here is described as 'sightless' versus mostly being endowed in other contexts with superior vision to the ones they watch over, or more precisely 'look down on,' with the included connotation of arrogant superiority. Perhaps the snow is blinding the gargoyle? Is Theon, like Bran and Tyrion, one of those who can in your words 'watch the watchers' without always being watched themselves? 15 hours ago, LynnS said: He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. Bran can see the gargoyles at the top of the tower, watching him ascend. Someone else using the moon's eye view. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. ... Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear, so long as he did not hear them, he was safe. Bran has the capability of watching the watchers and hearing what they say. Instinctively he know that this knowledge is dangerous to him. That they had once been lions now twisted and grotesque; identifies them. Apropos, 'watching the watchers' is related to idea of 'the hunters becoming the hunted,' or the 'servants becoming masters,' which is probably relevant to the power struggle that is brewing. Interestingly, in contrast to Sansa's model of Winterfell where the features of the gargoyles were obliterated by her, urged on at Petyr's instruction, at the 'real' Winterfell the 'grotesque' face of one of the gargoyles pokes out and can be clearly differentiated by Theon, despite the snow; i.e. Theon sees it, but it cannot see him, because it's 'sightless' in Theon's sight! There's also a suggestion conveyed by the language that Theon might be capable of hearing the gargoyle, as it's described by Theon as 'snarling.' To your point, it seems neither Bran nor Tyrion nor Theon can be killed by gargoyles or gods, no matter how hard some of them try! In fact, Theon accounts for his unlikely survival against all odds, saying simply that 'the gods are not done with me...' This is also in the same chapter, 'A Ghost in Winterfell,' where Theon is unable to sleep, probably because he is undergoing his third-eye transformation and as such being haunted or visited by a ghostly old gods presence; similarly, the Ghost of High Heart describes how the old gods are 'stirring' and won't let her rest, interrupting her sleep with their prophetic visions. Thus, we may conclude, Theon is one of these 'ghosts'; his true name, 'Theon,' significantly reclaimed in this same chapter, means 'godly'; and he's blessed -- or cursed -- with the vision of those who watch the watchers: Quote A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell "False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?" "The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. 15 hours ago, LynnS said: aGoT Bran IV In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase . Higher and Higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. This seems to be another way of saying that Bran is reaching for the moon or using the moon's eye view. The ancient high windowless tower; the House of Black and White. The House of Black and White sits upon a rocky knoll made of dark grey stone. It has no windows and has a black tile roof. Wiki. The Citadel could be another ancient high tower. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. (The italicized text, a second voice; reinforcing Bran's fears and self-imposed limitations.) He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. Bran can see the gargoyles at the top of the tower, watching him ascend. Someone else using the moon's eye view. At first, your description of the 'windowless tower' confused me, since thus far I've been strongly associating 'windows' with the third eye capacity, as in my previous post. However, after some thought it came to me that your 'windowless tower' enabling those with the capacity to scale it the prize at the top of 'a moon's eye view,' reminds me of your telescope analogy! The structure of a telescope is a tall, apparently 'windowless' tube when seen from the outside (to those who don't know how to apply their 'eye' in order to use it), however with a window at either end! The main window is located at the top, that's why it appears windowless on the outside. In order to see, one must have a way of getting to the top -- like a gargoyle -- therefore, 'climbing' facilitates 'seeing' facilitates 'flying'... In keeping with the role you've posited for them of 'watchers who watch the watchers,' Bran and Tyrion are often depicted climbing and perching above others like gargoyles (Theon also escapes Winterfell with Jeyne by climbing the walls). One of the chief pleasures of this activity for Bran is being 'invisible' to others whilst spying on them in turn (Jaime did not lie when he accused Bran of indulging in spying!) Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran II To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn't even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth. When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know. It taught him Winterfell's secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced. Quote A Game of Thrones - Jon I "Boy," a voice called out to him. Jon turned. Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the Great Hall, looking for all the world like a gargoyle. The dwarf grinned down at him. "Is that animal a wolf?" "A direwolf," Jon said. "His name is Ghost." He stared up at the little man, his disappointment suddenly forgotten. "What are you doing up there? Why aren't you at the feast?" Quote A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XIII Motionless as a gargoyle, Tyrion Lannister hunched on one knee atop a merlon. Beyond the Mud Gate and the desolation that had once been the fishmarket and wharves, the river itself seemed to have taken fire. Half of Stannis's fleet was ablaze, along with most of Joffrey's. The kiss of wildfire turned proud ships into funeral pyres and men into living torches. The air was full of smoke and arrows and screams. Tyrion is the gargoyle, the dwarf and giant at once, who watches from on high as he 'kisses' Stannis below with wildfire (another of those 'dubious kisses'..!) Another one, we haven't yet mentioned, who knows how to apply his third eye to 'watch the watchers' is little, fey, feral Rickon, who neatly applies his eye to Luwin's telescope in order to spy on the gargoyles in this scene: Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran VII Maester Luwin's turret was so cluttered that it seemed to Bran a wonder that he ever found anything. Tottering piles of books covered tables and chairs, rows of stoppered jars lined the shelves, candle stubs and puddles of dried wax dotted the furniture, the bronze Myrish lens tube sat on a tripod by the terrace door, star charts hung from the walls, shadow maps lay scattered among the rushes, papers, quills, and pots of inks were everywhere, and all of it was spotted with droppings from the ravens in the rafters. Their strident quorks drifted down from above as Osha washed and cleaned and bandaged the maester's wounds, under Luwin's terse instruction. "This is folly," the small grey man said while she dabbed at the wolf bites with a stinging ointment. "I agree that it is odd that both you boys dreamed the same dream, yet when you stop to consider it, it's only natural. You miss your lord father, and you know that he is a captive. Fear can fever a man's mind and give him queer thoughts. Rickon is too young to comprehend—" "I'm four now," Rickon said. He was peeking through the lens tube at the gargoyles on the First Keep. The direwolves sat on opposite sides of the large round room, licking their wounds and gnawing on bones. "—too young, and—ooh, seven hells, that burns, no, don't stop, more. Too young, as I say, but you, Bran, you're old enough to know that dreams are only dreams." As an aside, I've always wondered why Shaggy Dog bites Maester Luwin. Your mention of Marwyn as the dwarf maester gargoyle figure made me question whether Luwin with his bronze Myrish lens tube in his telescopic turret really had the best interests of the Starks at heart, especially in conjunction with Lady Dustin's 'grey rats'-planted-at-Winterfell conspiracy theories. Shaggy and Ghost are the two most prescient direwolves, as suggested by their green and red eyes respectively. That means that Shaggy, like Rickon, is likely to be a notable 'watcher of watchers', rooting out the 'gargoyles' before all the rest -- and then consequently being perhaps rather unfairly accused and punished for his prescience when he attempts to 'take them out'! Here, Catelyn directly compares Luwin to a noisome 'grey rat': Quote A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III She cut him off. "I said, take the books away. The steward will attend to our needs." "We have no steward," Maester Luwin reminded her. Like a little grey rat, she thought, he would not let go. "Poole went south to establish Lord Eddard's household at King's Landing." Here, Summer, perhaps symbolically following Shaggy's lead, returns with a grey rat: Quote Storm of Swords - Bran IV Once the direwolf bolted through a dark door and returned a moment later with a grey rat between his teeth. The Rat Cook, Bran thought, but it was the wrong color, and only as big as a cat. The Rat Cook was white, and almost as huge as a sow . . . There were a lot of dark doors in the Nightfort, and a lot of rats. Bran could hear them scurrying through the vaults and cellars, and the maze of pitch-black tunnels that connected them. Jojen wanted to go poking around down there, but Hodor said "Hodor" to that, and Bran said "No." There were worse things than rats down in the dark beneath the Nightfort. 15 hours ago, LynnS said: Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear, so long as he did not hear them, he was safe. Bran has the capability of watching the watchers and hearing what they say. Instinctively he know that this knowledge is dangerous to him. That they had once been lions now twisted and grotesque; identifies them. But when he gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung,he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't." .. Although Bran denies hearing the gargoyles; he did hear them. As I've previously underscored, Bran is first and foremost a translator of the highest order. He translates words and worlds, as easily as he used to straddle gargoyles. Although he may no longer be able to climb physically, he nevertheless still understands the language of stone. In AWOIAF, we're told of the True Tongue that it includes the voices of stone: Quote Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day. The gods the children worshipped were the nameless ones that would one day become the gods of the First Men—the innumerable gods of the streams and forests and stones. Like his ancestor, Brandon the Builder who was in many ways fluent in the language of stone, Bran can understand those soft stone voices. And when he learns to translate them for those who speak the Common Tongue, the 'gargoyles' will be the ones who will no longer be 'safe'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 I like your work on gargoyles, which it seems may open interesting avenues of thought, although I'm very wary of reading too much into their omnipresence. It may simply be the case that GRRM likes them and just as he uses and re-uses a lot of imagery which he likes there may not be any real significance in the end. GRRM, it also has to be said, thoroughly understands the use of chaff in obscuring what's actually happening. Notwithstanding, I can't forebear to note that when it comes to watchers and the watched there are both gargoyles and crows on the tower from which Bran fell, and it was after all a gargoyle not a crow which caused him to fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 On 8/19/2016 at 0:34 AM, ravenous reader said: ...are you the three-eyed crow?' -- to which GRRM knows the audience would like a clear yes-or-no answer. After all, finding this elusive figure is what this whole quest has been about; Bran even asks Sam if he's the three-eyed crow! In response to this simple question, predictably Bloodraven gives a cryptic answer. I say 'predictable' because Bran has a history of asking direct questions, to which his enigmatic mentors like Nan, the three-eyed-crow, Jojen, Meera, Leaf, Bloodraven and Hodor all give equivocal, perhaps even evasive answers! The only mentor who is prepared to answer directly is Maester Luwin, but that doesn't help Bran or us further because he dismisses the non-material, 'magical' realm entirely. While it's true that Bloodraven refrains from confirming that he is the three-eyed crow from the flying dream, neither does he deny it (I think that's because GRRM is simply not into being straightforward and explicit!) Admittedly, however, it's suspicious that in response to Bran's definite article 'the' qualifying the crow in question, Bloodraven answers with an indefinite article 'a' followed by an ellipsis (...) pregnant with meaning. One gets the feeling that Bloodraven is not saying something, and/or that he may well have someone in mind. Returning to this [just for a moment, honest] I think that perhaps too much is read into the exchange. There is no three-eyed crow - only Bryn Blackwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 On 8/19/2016 at 0:34 AM, ravenous reader said: Crucially, I had always assumed Coldhands had been sent by Bloodraven as his proxy to guide Bran's party to the cave. Of that I think there's no doubt, and returning to the Heart of Darkness parallels, just as Kurtz and Bloodraven are one and the same so too are the Russian [Harlequin] and Coldhands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 On 8/18/2016 at 11:16 PM, Black Crow said: Ah you misunderstand me. While Lynn raised the old question of a physical connection between the crow and the serving maid, what I was suggesting was that the crow was frustrated by her inadvertently waking Bran and breaking the connection in mid-session. I did not get that the crow was frustrated.He bitch slapped Bran and according to Bran was shrieking in fear as he was enveloped by the grey mist. On 8/19/2016 at 6:43 AM, LynnS said: Bran may not have needed to go to the crow for his lesson; but I think there was a reason to get Bran beyond the Wall; starting with the first assassination attempt on his life. Coldhands is very specific about the world thinking the boy is dead and wanting to ensure that nobody comes looking for him. I'm not sure that this is just a case of Littlefinger setting up the Lannisters and Tyrion in particular. There are other means for entering the mind and dreams of others. There is another dream where Bran is climbing the tower after Tyrion visits on his way back from the Wall: aGoT Bran IV In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase . Higher and Higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. This seems to be another way of saying that Bran is reaching for the moon or using the moon's eye view. The ancient high windowless tower; the House of Black and White. The House of Black and White sits upon a rocky knoll made of dark grey stone. It has no windows and has a black tile roof. Wiki. The Citadel could be another ancient high tower. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. (The italicized text, a second voice; reinforcing Bran's fears and self-imposed limitations.) He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. Bran can see the gargoyles at the top of the tower, watching him ascend. Someone else using the moon's eye view. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. I'm reminded of Sam arriving at the Citadel. He meets Marwyn for the first time who has been watching him through the glass candles. Before Sam enters the room; Pate the Faceless Man has been closeted alone with Marwyn. Sam enters to see the glass candles burning and smells something burnt in the brazier. I'm going to guess that a blood offering was made using holy blood or Pate's blood to activate the candles. From Euron's chapter in WoW; we know he is collecting holy men to use their blood in some sorcery. The FM are a priesthood and that would quality the FM as holy blood. This may be the secret that only Marwyn knows to activate the candles. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear, so long as he did not hear them, he was safe. Bran has the capability of watching the watchers and hearing what they say. Instinctively he know that this knowledge is dangerous to him. That they had once been lions now twisted and grotesque; identifies them. But when he gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't." He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered trembling with fear, but then the shadow said, "Hodor," and lit a candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief. Although Bran denies hearing the gargoyles; he did hear them. The vast shadow is another of Bran's visions in the coma dream: He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood. The giant in armor made of stone; is the Titan of Braavos: home base for the FM and the House of Black and White. We are meant to think that the dream is about Cersei and Jaime pushing Bran out the window; but this dream is something else. The question is who are the gargoyles who were once lions. I suspect Marwyn of being a bastard son of Tywin Lannister and a dwarf. This might fit with Tyrion's aunt jokingly telling him that there is not doubt that he is Tywin's son. Because she knows that Tywin has produced another offspring with dwarfism. I also suspect Petyr Baelish of being a bastard son of Tywin and he is also connected to the Stone Giant or Braavos. I think that Marwyn was the dwarf maester who served at the Fingers; mentioned by Tyrion in aDwD. Tyrion is also a threat to be eliminated because he like Bran; has the capability of watching the watchers. His nightmares which he avoids by staying up all night or getting stone drunk to avoid dreaming.. ETA: An additional question would be whether the Wall blocks access by glass candles; if Bran is afforded additional protection in the cave of the greenseer. His crow dreams stop after he crosses the Wall. This might also be a barrier for Melisandre searching in the fires for the enemy when BR and Bran break into her vision. So something similar? If the gargoyles were once lions; are they now crows? Do they fear Bran as he fears them? Someone wants Bran to open the third eye; while the other wants to stop him from seeing. How does Marwyn see and listen to Sam recount his tale to the Sphynx when it's daylight and the moon is hidden. Quaithe touches Dany's wrist leaving a tingling sensation establishing a direct connection with her in order to use the glass candle. Marywin must see and hear Sam through the Sphynx. Does he have other spies he can use at Winterfell? A serving girl maybe? So we have two gargoyles who might have been lions once; Marwyn and the Mockingbird; a bird that can mimic other sounds... a crow. ETA: I'm guessing that Coldhands is the 3EC or one aspect of him and the reason he can't cross the Black Gate is because he is the Black Gate. Coldhands is the green man version of the 3EC. He can speak to Bran in his mind and he refers to BR as a dreamer. They killed him long ago; as old as the face of the Black Gate; who sheds a salty tear when Bran passes. The three eyed crow's purpose is to get Bran to safety; away from the assassins. Protected by a green man; like the heart tree and godswood on the island of the God's Eye. There's several school of thought on CHs role in all this.I'm thinking its kind of a "Stranger on a Train" scenario without the murder.I maybe wrong about this but think both BR and CHs are in a position to give each other what the other needs CHs can get BR tree collective Bran and BR can get CHs Jon which is where i think this is heading.In the back of mind and something ive kept on the burner is that at the end of the day the 13th LC declared himself a King,King of what we should be asking and over what domain? The Night's watch at one point was essentially a kingdom that grew up from among the others.I will talk sometime later about where i'm going with that.I digress i think they(BR and CH) are working with eachother out of neccessity. As to your other thought about Bran needing to leave on account of the assassination? Do you mean when Theon and Co decided to take WF? Bran wasn't in any danger nor was Rickon( who i believe was suppose to leave because he is the chained wolf and not Bran) Theon wouldn't have killed them anyway and we would have ended up right where we are now in terms of WF.Except Bran would have been there with the Boltons and a Stark would be in WF. I do like the "notion" of CHs being the 3ec and it doesn't diminish what i said about him and BR working together out of neccessity.To that end i would bring up that i'm not adverse to BC's idea that the crows and the trees are working together but the crows might be hitting them a "4 for a 6" and the trees are unaware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Black Crow said: Returning to this [just for a moment, honest] I think that perhaps too much is read into the exchange. There is no three-eyed crow - only Bryn Blackwood. I prefer to keep the option of the identity of 3EC open, after all GRRM keeps telling us that ravens are not crows. "The crow is the raven's poor cousin" "When the ravens came the crows would scatter" "The maester's ravens were paying court to some of the corpses, while the crows from the broken tower attended others" "Listen to the crow call the raven black" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said: As to your other thought about Bran needing to leave on account of the assassination? I was actually referring to the first attempt during his coma dream when the library is burned down and Cat stops the assassin with the blade. The blade that Baelish then claims as his own and lost to Tyrion in a bet. An outright lie. In the dream sequence; Bran is able to listen in on conversation that is not meant to be overhead. Information that is dangerous for him to know. He is breaking into a conversation in the same way that Bran and BR break into Mel's fire visions and she sees their faces. I wouldn't categorize watching the watchers as a form of omnipresence. I think the conversation he overhead; the whisperings, were a matter of sorcery using glass candles. We know from Marwyn that glass candles give you the ability to speak to another. The dream image of climbing a windowless black tower fits the description in some ways to the House of Black and White. Marwyn is closeted alone with Pate the Faceless Man when Sam arrives. Sam smells something burnt in the brazier. Marwyn says that all sorcery is rooted in blood and fire. So is this a necessary part of using a glass candle. The candle amplifies what the sorcerer sees in the flames. Does this account for Bran seeing eyes like coals in a brazier. The candles giving off light without burning doesn't seem to be enough to give Sam any visions. We know Quaithe comes to Dany using a glass candle; but we don't know how a candle is used. She was previously touched on her wrist leaving a tingling sensation. We could say that obsidian is frozen fire or fire made into stone. When Sam kills the White Walker with his obsidian blade; it can't be touched afterwards because it has absorbed the cold or perhaps the ice magic binding together the WW. Is Mel's ruby really a ruby? She's more than familiar with the uses of dragonglass; saying that there is plenty of it at Dragonstone. She uses a ruby to glamor Mance. He says he can feel the heat of it on his wrist. Yet when she breaks the glamor the stone turns dark. Does the ruby at her throat draw the fire from her heart and glow red in the same manner that Sam's blade drew the cold from the WW? Is it her ruby and burnt offerings that allow her to see visions in the flame. I suspect Mel's ruby to be obsidian and Stannis' sword Lightbringer that Sam describes to Aemon, burning without heat, giving off pretty colors to be a glass candle. That could lead to some speculation about the pale stone sword as ice made into stone. Working in the opposite way and drawing fire magic to itself if you stab a fire demon in the heart. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 11 minutes ago, Tucu said: I prefer to keep the option of the identity of 3EC open, after all GRRM keeps telling us that ravens are not crows. "The crow is the raven's poor cousin" "When the ravens came the crows would scatter" "The maester's ravens were paying court to some of the corpses, while the crows from the broken tower attended others" "Listen to the crow call the raven black" Certainly worth bearing in mind that the crow in question is indeed a crow, despite what the mummers say, but I did suggest that its the crows who have retained the power of communication unlike the domesticated ravens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: Certainly worth bearing in mind that the crow in question is indeed a crow, despite what the mummers say, but I did suggest that its the crows who have retained the power of communication unlike the domesticated ravens. On the bolded part: Ravens are used by the maesters, CH, BR, the CoTF and Mormont. I don't remember any crow showing any strange behaviour apart from the 3EC and maybe the crows in the First Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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