Heresy 190

[Brad Stark]

GRRM has people explain the world according to their own views.  Those with faith of the seven see the crone responsible for ravens.  I bet that's all there is to this.  The association with death is interesting though.

Speaking of Ravens, Bran and mythology, is anyone here familiar with Bendigeidfran?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has people explain the world according to their own views.  Those with faith of the seven see the crone responsible for ravens.  I bet that's all there is to this.  The association with death is interesting though.

Speaking of Ravens, Bran and mythology, is anyone here familiar with Bendigeidfran?

A little, not much.  There seem to be elements of these stories and their variants like the Fisher King that you can attach a similarity to some of the characters.  It's difficult to map one onto the other in any direct manner.

For example, Dany would have been sent to the Dosh Khaleen and become one of the 'crones' if she hadn't been abandoned.  She is accused of being a Maegi by one of the bloodriders at the beginning of MMD's ritual.   She is searching for the 'truth' when she enters the House of the Undying through the ensorceled door.   It's a place of the dead and trapped souls.  The question is what did she release when she burned the place down.  This would seem to fit with the Crone opening the door and the first raven entering the world.  The raven as the harbinger of death.

[Brad Stark]

I find it interesting there is a real myth about a king named Bran who can't walk, associated with ravens, the afterlife and bringing people back from the dead.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I find it interesting there is a real myth about a king named Bran who can't walk, associated with ravens, the afterlife and bringing people back from the dead.

Who can't speak.  "Dead men tell no tales."

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Crone represents wisdom, so it's implied that it was wise to let the raven into the world. The association of death and wisdom caused me to make the connection to the House of Black and White and the Faceless men's view that death is a gift...a necessary gift and part of the cycle of life. Ravens are carion birds that feed upon the carcasses of the dead, but its a messenger too keeping and communicating knowledge.

Yes I'm inclined to interpret it in line with Old Nan's saying about ravens: dark wings dark words; they are harbingers of death.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has people explain the world according to their own views.  Those with faith of the seven see the crone responsible for ravens.  I bet that's all there is to this.  The association with death is interesting though.

Speaking of Ravens, Bran and mythology, is anyone here familiar with Bendigeidfran?

Oh, I'd say we've discussed the strong links to the Mabinogion not above half a hundred times

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I find it interesting there is a real myth about a king named Bran who can't walk, associated with ravens, the afterlife and bringing people back from the dead.

Strictly speaking its not a matter of not being able to walk; its the fact that Bran the Blessed's head has been cut off and sits under a white hill watching over the island of Britain - or Westeros if you prefer.

One of the joys of heresy has been identifying GRRM's sources and inspirations, especially in Celtic mythology

[wolfmaid7]

This moves so quickley danm it!!!

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

A little, not much.  There seem to be elements of these stories and their variants like the Fisher King that you can attach a similarity to some of the characters.  It's difficult to map one onto the other in any direct manner.

For example, Dany would have been sent to the Dosh Khaleen and become one of the 'crones' if she hadn't been abandoned.  She is accused of being a Maegi by one of the bloodriders at the beginning of MMD's ritual.   She is searching for the 'truth' when she enters the House of the Undying through the ensorceled door.   It's a place of the dead and trapped souls.  The question is what did she release when she burned the place down.  This would seem to fit with the Crone opening the door and the first raven entering the world.  The raven as the harbinger of death.

 

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes I'm inclined to interpret it in line with Old Nan's saying about ravens: dark wings dark words; they are harbingers of death.

These concepts i hope we talk alot more about in the Crows essay because i think there's something to it.By it i mean "Letting the crow in" what if its an agent of chaos? What fruits have come out of the crow opening the eyes of certain individuals?Hmm

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This moves so quickley danm it!!!

 

These concepts i hope we talk alot more about in the Crows essay because i think there's something to it.By it i mean "Letting the crow in" what if its an agent of chaos? What fruits have come out of the crow opening the eyes of certain individuals?Hmm

I was wondering if it was more like the creation story of Adam and Eve who were supposedly made to live forever, but because they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil God punished humans by making them age and die. It was the wisdom of the Crone that let death enter and gave the gift of death to humans. In this way it's similar to the House of Black and White's vision that all men must die.

[Black Crow]

I like that

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was wondering if it was more like the creation story of Adam and Eve who were supposedly made to live forever, but because they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil God punished humans by making them age and die. It was the wisdom of the Crone that let death enter and gave the gift of death to humans. In this way it's similar to the House of Black and White's vision that all men must die.

 

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I like that

Not an empty threat it seems.We have all these assertions that Crows are liars,they carry messages and we have an entity that is opening peoples other sight.

 

Note: Heresy parentage wrap up thread is up on the general page

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Note: Heresy parentage wrap up thread is up on the general page

Seen it 

[Black Crow]

On 8/23/2016 at 6:11 PM, LynnS said:

I'm not opposed to the idea that the land north of the wall or Asshai represent the heart of darkness; that the land is permeated with the darkness like a poison.

Returning to the matter in hand, its worth remembering GRRM's penchant for layering his meanings. At one level Conrad's Heart of Darkness was literal; geographically it was the heart of the dark [as in unknown] continent, just as Africa was at the time of his story, but it was also where strange and unspeakable rituals and sacrifices took place, and ultimately it became a palindrome; the darkness of the human heart. All of these things are to be found in Bran's journey up the river and what he finds at the inner station.

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Returning to the matter in hand, its worth remembering GRRM's penchant for layering his meanings. At one level Conrad's Heart of Darkness was literal; geographically it was the heart of the dark [as in unknown] continent, just as Africa was at the time of his story, but it was also where strange and unspeakable rituals and sacrifices took place, and ultimately it became a palindrome; the darkness of the human heart. All of these things are to be found in Bran's journey up the river and what he finds at the inner station.

I haven't read the book; so I'm having to rely on Spark Notes for some background.  At this point, I have more of a feeling that Tyrion is travelling through the heart of darkness as the character Marlowe and Cersei comes more in line with the character of Kurtz.  So perhaps this is a separate or parallel reckoning from Bran at the inner station.  These would seem to be the themes and motifs relating to Bran.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I haven't read the book; so I'm having to rely on Spark Notes for some background.  At this point, I have more of a feeling that Tyrion is travelling through the heart of darkness as the character Marlowe and Cersei comes more in line with the character of Kurtz.  So perhaps this is a separate or parallel reckoning from Bran at the inner station.  These would seem to be the themes and motifs relating to Bran.

I can thoroughly recommend the Heart of Darkness, both as a magnificent work of literature in its own light and as an insight into what GRRM is doing. Its a relatively short book, but the similarities and parallels are very striking and can only truly be appreciated by actually reading it rather than simply listening to my ravings. It is in fact almost quite eerie to read it with ASoIF in your mind.

[Black Crow]

Shifting the angle slightly, as you'll have seen from my earlier essay, the Kurtz/Bloodraven parallels are so close as to almost verge on plagiarism, but if coming fresh to the Heart of Darkness, can I also recommend you to study the parallels between Coldhands and a character variously referred to as the Harlequin or the Russian. 

And note also who was really responsible for the fight outside the Inner Station.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Shifting the angle slightly, as you'll have seen from my earlier essay, the Kurtz/Bloodraven parallels are so close as to almost verge on plagiarism, but if coming fresh to the Heart of Darkness, can I also recommend you to study the parallels between Coldhands and a character variously referred to as the Harlequin or the Russian. 

And note also who was really responsible for the fight outside the Inner Station.

Yes, I'm intrigued.  Is this it in full:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/219/219-h/219-h.htm

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 8/24/2016 at 3:26 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I was wondering if it was more like the creation story of Adam and Eve who were supposedly made to live forever, but because they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil God punished humans by making them age and die. It was the wisdom of the Crone that let death enter and gave the gift of death to humans. In this way it's similar to the House of Black and White's vision that all men must die.

Awesome analogy of the forbidden fruit/knowledge.  I'm thinking of a similar idea yet different pertaining to the crone, the death and the crow.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I'm intrigued.  Is this it in full:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/219/219-h/219-h.htm

Yuup, that's the one. Read it, enjoy it and see how much it meshes with ASoIF in every way 

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Awesome analogy of the forbidden fruit/knowledge.  I'm thinking of a similar idea yet different pertaining to the crone, the death and the crow.

I'm thinking of Dany in the House of Undying when she encounters the splendor of wizards.  She's offered the food of forever and secret knowledge.  She burns the place down instead.